For the record...

[Okla-homey]

mebbe JSM's peeps do listen to me.;)

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118237&highlight=Palin

[SoonerStormchaser]

I know 20xx sure as hell didn't.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

All he was doing was loving you, SSC.

[Frozen Sooner]

Yeah, good call Homey. Surprising and interesting pick, to say the least.

Obviously proud of her as an Alaskan. Still not going to vote for her. :D

[Vaevictis]

Much shrewder choice than Biden. IMO, anyway.

Certainly takes a shot at collecting some of the disaffected Clinton crowd who want a woman in the White House.

This is totally impolitic to say, but you know it's going to be on some folks minds -- it ain't the Presidency, but at McCain's age, it very well could be.

[Okla-homey]

Still not going to vote for her. :D

I know. You are my bestest walking contradiction buddy. A Marxist supporting banker. That's kinda like being a hunter who's a vegan.;)

[Frozen Sooner]

I know. You are my bestest walking contradiction buddy. A Marxist supporting banker. That's kinda like being a hunter who's a vegan.;)

I'd like to point out that the last eight years of Republican hegemony haven't been that great for banks. :D

plus, what's more Democrat-friendly than working for a not-for-profit cooperative venture?

[SoonerJack]

Mike,
Is it the last 8 years of Republican hegemony or the questionable lending practices have been not that great for banks?

Back to Palin. I think she is an outstanding pick for veep!

[BigRedJed]

Good call Homey. I was seriously going to point that out in the other thread, but then I noticed that you had started your own self-congratulatory one. ;)

[KC//CRIMSON]

Gallup Daily 08/29/08: Obama Stretches Lead to 8 Points

http://savetherobot.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/mccain_wow.jpg

[Frozen Sooner]

Mike,
Is it the last 8 years of Republican hegemony or the questionable lending practices have been not that great for banks?


Ultimate responsibility lies with the people who made the loans. However, the irresponsibility was fueled by the monetary policy of the last several years coupled with a lax regulatory environment.

[Okla-homey]

However, the irresponsibility was fueled by the monetary policy of the last several years coupled with a lax regulatory environment.

cuz lawd nows we can't trust the lending industry to police itself.;)

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Doesn't some responsibility lay squarely on the shoulders of the borrower for not following sound financial practices in securing borrowed funds?

[Okla-homey]

Doesn't some responsibility lay squarely on the shoulders of the borrower for not following sound financial practices in securing borrowed funds?

You can't blame the borrower. He just knows he needs the gazillion dollar house. If a lender will give him a mortgage despite his inability to pay, that's on the lender.

playground rules: tag you're it! No takebacks!

[Tulsa_Fireman]

That avatar just made me pop at LEAST fourteen boners, Homey.

[Frozen Sooner]

cuz lawd nows we can't trust the lending industry to police itself.;)

You're not going to get any kind of disagreement from me on that. There's a whole slew of consumer-protection laws in place precisely because lenders couldn't be trusted to police ourselves.

The fact that such a thing as Section 32 has to exist should tell you that. Or ECOA, for that matter.

[Frozen Sooner]

Doesn't some responsibility lay squarely on the shoulders of the borrower for not following sound financial practices in securing borrowed funds?

For the banking industry being in trouble? Not really. They have responsibility for their own liquidity, not the liquidity of the banking industry.

[mdklatt]

Doesn't some responsibility lay squarely on the shoulders of the borrower for not following sound financial practices in securing borrowed funds?

If you lend money to somebody with a proven record of money mismanagement, you can't call cry foul when they mismanage the money you just gave them.

[Vaevictis]

If a lender will give him a mortgage despite his inability to pay, that's on the lender.

It's not quite that simple.

A major problem, as I understand it, is that the people who hold the loans now aren't the people who originate them.

You had loan originators lending to anyone and everyone, securitizing the mortgages, and selling them off to third parties. The ratings agencies gave high value marks to a bunch of mortgage pools that turned out to be toilet paper. The people who relied on the ratings agencies were not in a position to do a proper evaluation themselves.

It's not all that much different from when you have an executive team cooking the books and the audit team is in cahoots with them in terms of effect -- even if there isn't technically any fraud.

[Echoes]

I think it's a pretty good pick. Personally, I think I would have chosen someone else, but it's a pretty good pick nonetheless

[Vaevictis]

Bah. Mispost.

[tbl]

I'd like to point out that the last eight years of Republican hegemony haven't been that great for banks. :D


Right... it's the republicans fault, not the banks. :rolleyes:

[Frozen Sooner]

Right... it's the republicans fault, not the banks. :rolleyes:

Good job ignoring everything posted after that. :rolleyes:

And good job ignoring that the initial post was good-natured ribbing in response to good-natured ribbing.

[SoonerJack]

Mike, I'm glad you recognized that I was just kiddin ya.

Now, back to the hotness that is Vice-President Palin...

[Frozen Sooner]

Mike, I'm glad you recognized that I was just kiddin ya.

Now, back to the hotness that is Vice-President Palin...

Well, I thought you asked a legitimate question as well that deserved an answer.

[tbl]

Good job ignoring everything posted after that. :rolleyes:

And good job ignoring that the initial post was good-natured ribbing in response to good-natured ribbing.

Thanks!

[Okla-homey]

It's not quite that simple.

A major problem, as I understand it, is that the people who hold the loans now aren't the people who originate them.

You had loan originators lending to anyone and everyone, securitizing the mortgages, and selling them off to third parties. The ratings agencies gave high value marks to a bunch of mortgage pools that turned out to be toilet paper. The people who relied on the ratings agencies were not in a position to do a proper evaluation themselves.

It's not all that much different from when you have an executive team cooking the books and the audit team is in cahoots with them in terms of effect -- even if there isn't technically any fraud.

Now you're on to something. If worthless paper is marketed to unsuspecting purchasers who rely on false claims of the paper's value, that's fraud in every jurisdiction I know of. I want criminal indictments and don't understand why those haven't been issued. That's what will fix this...TV images of guys in suits doing the perp walk out the front door of mortgage brokerages. I favor that over a bail of new federal regulations.

[Vaevictis]

Based on what I know, I don't think you're ever going to see any convictions or prosecution in this regard. I don't know that it's possible to prove that anyone at the ratings agencies knew or should have known that the ratings were bogus, and likewise with the folks doing the securitization.

The individual originators are certainly not on the hook with respect to this scenario, because it's the portfolio of mortgages that gets rated, and the originators deal in individual mortgages. (Unless the originator falsified information in an individual loan, etc)

Of course, I suspect that Mike would be able to talk about this more intelligently than I, being that he's in the business.

[Vaevictis]

And I really don't think I buy the argument that jailing a bunch of folks is going to fix the problem. It may help, but hey, we tossed a bunch of Enron/MCI folks in the clink a few years ago, and here we are again, right? ;)

EDIT: I should qualify that with: by itself. Nor do I think regs alone will solve the problem -- it's my opinion that the folks writing the regs are never as smart as a large group of scumbags with a profit motive.

IMO, getting the best result requires a combination of approaches including regulation and prosecution.

[Okla-homey]

And I really don't think I buy the argument that jailing a bunch of folks is going to fix the problem. It may help, but hey, we tossed a bunch of Enron/MCI folks in the clink a few years ago, and here we are again, right? ;)


that episode spawned Sar-Box. IMHO all it really does is make CEO's and CFO's personally accountable for intentionally misprepresented figures in corporate financials.

and, for the record, Sar-Box was in place throughout this mortgage fraud mess. The thing is Mike, these type folks think they're too smart or cool to get caught. Never underestimate the power of a perp walk to make these guys realize if the Harvard or Chicago MBA down the block can get busted, it can happen to them too.

[Vaevictis]

IMHO all it really does is make CEO's and CFO's personally accountable for intentionally misprepresented figures in corporate financials.

It also redistributes a lot of wealth from companies that have to comply to accounting firms ;)

Irony:

Dear Accounting Firms,

You guys ****ed up with Enron and MCI. Big time.

So here's some more money.

Thanks,

Congress

[Vaevictis]

Never underestimate the power of a perp walk to make these guys realize if the Harvard or Chicago MBA down the block can get busted, it can happen to them too.

Heh, the current graduating MBA class at OU is going on a field trip to a federal prison a little later this semester for that very reason.