Teacher pay

[badger]

So I was walking in downtown Tulsa yesterday and dude with a petition for teacher pay increasing to the regional average stops me with a question:

"Hi, are you a registered Oklahoma voter?"

Weary of outta-staters getting petition signers to collect sigs for money, I responded:

"Are you?"

As it turns out, he was, as it is a statewide petition by the teachers union (http://www.normantranscript.com/localnews/local_story_226234444) to increase teacher pay.

I didn't sign since I was working, but wondered if I should. Any thoughts? Have a pole on it :D

[Hamhock]

ibtteachers already only work 7 hours/day, 8 months/year

[picasso]

count me as one person who admires the work teachers do. I had the job briefly back in 2000. that said, according to the cost of living in Okieville just how bad is it?
It's like any profession, you know what kind of money is involved before you jump in.

[85Sooner]

Show us the results. Screw the Union

[Hamhock]

It's like any profession, you know what kind of money is involved before you jump in.


good point.

also, if you're good enough to demand more money, go to a private school.

[badger]

good point.

also, if you're good enough to demand more money, go to a private school.

ummm... private schools pay less, don't they? someone wanna speak on the record on this?

[picasso]

ummm... private schools pay less, don't they? someone wanna speak on the record on this?

umm, no they don't.

hey, I knew I was going to be a starving artist when I got in!

[yermom]

in my experience they did

we should at least pay enough to keep them in state...

****ty teachers are bad for everyone

[Frozen Sooner]

umm, no they don't.

hey, I knew I was going to be a starving artist when I got in!

Ummm, as a general rule, yes, they do pay less than public schools. At least according to my friends who are teachers.

[picasso]

Ummm, as a general rule, yes, they do pay less than public schools. At least according to my friends who are teachers.

Ummm I have a sister and friend who made more teaching in Tulsa private schools.

and quit following me around, wanker.

[badger]

Ummm, as a general rule, yes, they do pay less than public schools. At least according to my friends who are teachers.

Someone in the family just went to a private school after enduring public school rules for at least 20 years and was going to make less (but on a positive note, would get the state teacher pension for her time serving in public schools)... I didn't know if it was just less compared to an experienced teacher, or less compared to all public school teachers.

Private schools offer something better than money to teachers of out-of-control spoiled children: the ability to dismiss them without state regulators coming in and saying "NO EXPEL STATE! OKLAHOMA'S A NO EXPEL STATE!"

:rolleyes:

[Frozen Sooner]

Ummm I have a sister and friend who made more teaching in Tulsa private schools.

and quit following me around, wanker.


Umm, but it's your wanker I'm following around. :hot:

Sounds like Tulsa's public schools pay worse than normal. :D

[Frozen Sooner]

Someone in the family just went to a private school after enduring public school rules for at least 20 years and was going to make less (but on a positive note, would get the state teacher pension for her time serving in public schools)... I didn't know if it was just less compared to an experienced teacher, or less compared to all public school teachers.

Private schools offer something better than money to teachers of out-of-control spoiled children: the ability to dismiss them without state regulators coming in and saying "NO EXPEL STATE! OKLAHOMA'S A NO EXPEL STATE!"

:rolleyes:

Yep. Plus, they're not subject to NCLB bull****, nor do they have to take every student who enrolls.

[picasso]

my sis could be an exception. she taught at Tulsa's most expensive public school.:confused:

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

i have a question: are principals and administrators allowed in the NEA?

[badger]

i have a question: are principals and administrators allowed in the NEA?

It was a requirement back in Wisconsin that principals needed at least three years of teaching experience, so perhaps some are grandfathered into it, right?

[Hamhock]

ummm... private schools pay less, don't they? someone wanna speak on the record on this?

so, in an environment where free market dynamics are allowed to dictate the worth of the position, the salary is less...

what does that say?

[soonermix]

good teachers deserve to be paid above the regional average

[badger]

my sis could be an exception. she taught at Tulsa's most expensive public school.:confused:

haha, it's 20 times the cost of the next most expensive school, right?

Zero times 20 is... :P

I keed. I know you probably meant that they pay the highest.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

the reason i ask is doesn't it seem fundamentally wrong that management and worker bees are in the same union? especially when the pay gets distributed...

[badger]

Fun topic in the making!

:pop:

[Harry Beanbag]

What exactly are we talking about here? What is the regional average? What is the Oklahoma average? What do full time teachers start at in Oklahoma? I don't know the answers to any of these questions.

[picasso]

What exactly are we talking about here? What is the regional average? What is the Oklahoma average? What do full time teachers start at in Oklahoma? I don't know the answers to any of these questions.

I'll ask Mrs. Crabtree after lunch.

[badger]

What exactly are we talking about here? What is the regional average? What is the Oklahoma average? What do full time teachers start at in Oklahoma? I don't know the answers to any of these questions.

Linky (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080810_16_A24_pncase91972 1)

Important notes:

The price tag is $850 million.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2008/20080810_A24_a24petition.jpg

The current regional per-pupil funding figure is $8,300. Oklahoma spends $6,900.

[85Sooner]

Avg salary for employees of the NEA is 102k per year. What does that say when they are draining the pot dry. As long as the Teachers support their current union and its practices, I can't support the Teachers.

[badger]

From articles, the issue is not just teacher pay, but overall funding... perhaps I should have made a different poll?

Ah, this is fun discussion regardless :) Thanks to all for sharing your opinions!

[Jerk]

Sure, but pay on results, not seniority.

[soonersn20xx]

The problem is that ****ty teachers get a pay increase just like the good ones, there is no way to discern between the two and the NEA wants to keep it that way.

I happen to get very Republican on this issue because increasing teacher pay means increasing my property taxes, and I have a pair of retired teachers living next to me and they seem to be doing just fine. They travel all the time and eat out every night. So if the money isn't good enough, get a job in the real world and see how often you get a raise.

[Harry Beanbag]

But lawmakers said they have spent millions on education in recent years, including increasing teacher pay and shoring up the ailing Teacher Retirement System

I don't want to **** off any teachers or anything, but taking money away from the students to fund Union benefits is flat out wrong IMO. Are they wanting to throw money at educating the children or to the Union?

[Frozen Sooner]

i have a question: are principals and administrators allowed in the NEA?

According to the NEA website, only certified teachers who are primarily engaged in education or support staff are allowed to join. Not sure where the cutoff is, but I know that administrators generally don't strike with the union. I know Dad wasn't an NEA member when he was an administrator.

Hamhock-

There are multiple reasons why people choose to teach at private schools other than the pay. Badger and I just discussed a few of them. There's also some teachers who want to be able to teach religion in the classroom or whatever.

[Harry Beanbag]

There's also some teachers who want to be able to teach religion in the classroom or whatever.


Then they should become a Sunday School teacher.

[Hamhock]

Hamhock-

There are multiple reasons why people choose to teach at private schools other than the pay. Badger and I just discussed a few of them. There's also some teachers who want to be able to teach religion in the classroom or whatever.

no argument there. my wife was in that exact boat before she started throwing pups.


i also know that private school admin wants to get the best teachers. they pay what they have to in order to get the best teachers. in my mind, that defines market value.

[Frozen Sooner]

Well, I sort of agree. But if there's a school system that's not publicly funded that will pay them to teach religion, I'm cool with that.

[Harry Beanbag]

Well, I sort of agree. But if there's a school system that's not publicly funded that will pay them to teach religion, I'm cool with that.

Yeah, I apparently missed the "private" part of your post. :O :)

[Frozen Sooner]

no argument there. my wife was in that exact boat before she started throwing pups.


i also know that private school admin wants to get the best teachers. they pay what they have to in order to get the best teachers. in my mind, that defines market value.

So why don't the "best" teachers take the higher pay at the district instead of going to the private school for less pay?

Free market conditions don't prevail in the labor market for educators, and it's fallacious to attempt to apply them.

[Hamhock]

So why don't the "best" teachers take the higher pay at the district instead of going to the private school for less pay?

how long has it been since you've set in a public school classroom? and I'm not convinced the best private schools pay less than public.




Free market conditions don't prevail in the labor market for educators, and it's fallacious to attempt to apply them.

we disagree. (unless you're arguing the NEA artificially inflates the market)

[Fraggle145]

Sure, but pay on results, not seniority.

I wish we had a better way of assessing "results" other than the standardized test no child left behind bullcrap... Teacher's anymore are teaching for a test that isnt an accurate asesment of knowledge gained. Results need to be better defined and then I totally agree with you.

In the current financial situation if we want to keep our teachers here and out of Texas where they make more we are going to have to pay them more.

[r5TPsooner]

If Oklahoman and its citizens want to be a major player (as in bringing jobs and entertainment like the NBA to the state) then we should step up and take care of our educators. Of course, we need to do away with the teacher's union first.

[royalfan5]

How about this proposal for teacher pay. The parents have to be tested on skills as well. If a teacher has to deal with classes full of the children of ****-ups, they get paid more, if they get to teach the children of involved parents they get paid less.

[Frozen Sooner]

how long has it been since you've set in a public school classroom? and I'm not convinced the best private schools pay less than public.




we disagree. (unless you're arguing the NEA artificially inflates the market)

If you're not convinced that the best private schools pay less than public schools, then why are you making the free market argument to begin with? You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

And if you disagree that the labor market for teachers is a free market, then you have a radically different idea of what a free market is than I do. Any time an employer is able to exercise monopsony power you don't have a perfectly competitive model. Clearly, there is an entity able to exercise monopsony power in this labor market.

[Hamhock]

If you're not convinced that the best private schools pay less than public schools, then why are you making the free market argument to begin with? You can't have your cake and eat it, too.


no comprende. if the best private schools pay more, than the best teachers can go to work there. the private schools determine the market.

[/QUOTE]
And if you disagree that the labor market for teachers is a free market, then you have a radically different idea of what a free market is than I do. Any time an employer is able to exercise monopsony power you don't have a perfectly competitive model. Clearly, there is an entity able to exercise monopsony power in this labor market.[/QUOTE]

what is the single source of demand in your monopsony?

[Frozen Sooner]

Not a single source of demand, but a source so large that it distorts the market-and obviously, the public school districts.

[Frozen Sooner]

no comprende. if the best private schools pay more, than the best teachers can go to work there. the private schools determine the market.



But you're making the argument that the "market rate" is below what the public districts pay.

And again, the private schools are such a low percentage of the demand for labor that they have almost no effect on the cost of labor.

[Hamhock]

Not a single source of demand, but a source so large that it distorts the market-and obviously, the public school districts.

the public school districts and the NEA definitely muck up the model. I agree.

[Frozen Sooner]

the public school districts and the NEA definitely muck up the model. I agree.

They change it from a perfectly competitive model, sure.

Universal education is something that the market cannot provide, though. Whether or not you think universal education is something we should have is a different argument, of course.

The net effect of the public districts is to depress pay for the services provided-because I'll tell you right now, there's no way in heck that private schools would take a lot of the kids that publics have to for the tuition that publics are "charging".

[Hamhock]

But you're making the argument that the "market rate" is below what the public districts pay.

And again, the private schools are such a low percentage of the demand for labor that they have almost no effect on the cost of labor.


But you're making the argument that the "market rate" is below what the public districts pay.

.

i don't mean to.

i mean to make the argument that the "market rate" is the rate upon which a willing buyer (private schools) and a willing seller (teachers) agree.

if private schools pay more, than the good teachers should go to work there.

if private schools pay less, then the teachers should quit griping and be glad that someone is propping up their salary.

[C&CDean]

As long as a union is involved, it's always gonna be a cluster****. Drop the commie AFL-CIO and start getting paid based on merit. Yeah, I know, a novel concept...

That being said, cops and teachers are the most underpaid professions out there.

[Frozen Sooner]

i don't mean to.

i mean to make the argument that the "market rate" is the rate upon which a willing buyer (private schools) and a willing seller (teachers) agree.

if private schools pay more, than the good teachers should go to work there.

if private schools pay less, then the teachers should quit griping and be glad that someone is propping up their salary.

See, but the teacher isn't necessarily a willing seller in the market for their labor. They realistically only have one buyer for their services-services which they've overcome large barriers to entry to provide. As such, they will provide those services below a perfectly competitive price.

Now, picasso made an excellent point earlier in this thread: people entering the educational field know what the salaries are when they sign up. The problem with this is that we end up with nobody choosing to become a teacher at some point.

[SoonerProphet]

My current private school pays less upon entering but salary has increased at a better clip percentage wise than those in the public sector. In addition to that I am not mandated by the state to teach towards an exam, I have greater freedom over curriculum development, better involvement from parents, better training and workshop gigs, and work within a community that is genuinely vested in the performance of its students. Not saying others aren't, but we know these kids and their families since kindergarten and have a true "family" atmosphere at our campus.

[Hamhock]

See, but the teacher isn't necessarily a willing seller in the market for their labor. They realistically only have one buyer for their services-services which they've overcome large barriers to entry to provide. As such, they will provide those services below a perfectly competitive price.

Now, picasso made an excellent point earlier in this thread: people entering the educational field know what the salaries are when they sign up.

more than one buyer. but granted, the public schools dominate the market.

what are the large barriers to entry?


The problem with this is that we end up with nobody choosing to become a teacher at some point.

but my percption is the supply of teachers is fine, thus, they must be getting paid enough. if the supply of teachers starts to dwindle, the buyers will have to raise the price to entice more teachers into the market.

i don't understand it, but it's true. Look at the firefighters. they have a dangerous, thankless job and get paid nothin', yet i know several firefighters who can't get hired on to their own city departments.

[NormanPride]

I think it's important to pay teachers on a scale related to cost of living, determined by other states in similar financial situations. You can throw money at teachers all you want, but if the overall budget isn't increasing all we're doing is hurting other programs.

Now, if we have too many other programs (in relation to other financially-like states) and our teachers are suffering, then things need to be fixed.

[Hamhock]

I think it's important to pay teachers on a scale related to cost of living, determined by other states in similar financial situations. You can throw money at teachers all you want, but if the overall budget isn't increasing all we're doing is hurting other programs.

Now, if we have too many other programs (in relation to other financially-like states) and our teachers are suffering, then things need to be fixed.

we should create some new education funding method.

maybe one where people buy $1 tickets in an attempt to win a much larger sum of money, against astronomical odds. that'll fix education.

[tommieharris91]

so, in an environment where free market dynamics are allowed to dictate the worth of the position, the salary is less...

what does that say?

Demand for those positions is higher than public schools.

[yermom]

we should create some new education funding method.

maybe one where people buy $1 tickets in an attempt to win a much larger sum of money, against astronomical odds. that'll fix education.

teh Injuns won on that deal big time

[tommieharris91]

teh Injuns won on that deal big time

Last I checked the Injuns don't run the lottery.

[yermom]

yeah, but the casino money was supposed to go to education on that same vote, wasn't it?

they have decided to keep some lame rules so they don't have to give as much of a percentage to the state.

the lottery is lame anyway :P

[tommieharris91]

yeah, but the casino money was supposed to go to education on that same vote, wasn't it?
I don't think it was, but I'm not too sure.


the lottery is lame anyway :P

Very true.

[soonersn20xx]

I think it's important to pay teachers on a scale related to cost of living, determined by other states in similar financial situations.

Ok, so why wouldn't everyone's pay be based on this logic......teachers are special?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I haven't seen peep one about administrative bloat in state education.

2007 Legislative Budget Summary (http://www.oksenate.gov/publications/legislative_summary/2007_legislative_summary.html)

I saw how the state is under the regional average on per student expenditures, but there's a problem in that. The State of Oklahoma already spends half of its 7 billion dollar budget on education, and given the rainy day fund appropriations, it comes in as OVER half of the State's expenditure as per fiscal year 2007 numbers.

How much more do we need to spend when over 3.5 BILLION dollars are spent on education every year at the state level? When do we as a populace scream calfrope and hold our state officials, school boards and superintendents responsible for the money they're already blowing like water from a faucet with absolute sh*t for results? When do we drop the hammer and expect more from our students, teachers, and administrators, not more from the coffers?

Chalk is cheap. So is paper.

Fact is, if the Gotebo Prepatory Academy for 5th Grade PoliSci majors is short on funds, guess what? It won't hurt your little Johnny and Suzie Brainchild to sit down and learn their guzintas. To raise the bar and EDUCATE, instead of coddling so that everyone gets to enjoy a piece of paper that nowadays, means you were able to sit through class and not raise hell moreso than it means you actually received an education.

[NormanPride]

Ok, so why wouldn't everyone's pay be based on this logic......teachers are special?

Public school teachers, sorry. Part of the state, so driven more by statistics rather than demand.

[soonerscuba]

The NEA is a bottomless money pit, however, getting rid of it will not attract the best talent, it will attract talent willing to be paid less.

Personally, I think root of the problem is Jimbo and Anna Joe Cooter in Jet, Oklahoma feel that the gubmit don't know best how to teach their little son Darrel Cooter, so they form their own district. Consolidate districts, put the slackjawed yokels in their place and cut administration. It seems to be more of NIMBY situation than anything else. That said, I know nothing of professional education other than countries that are currently equipping a national curriculum with common national tests are kicking our *** at education. Once again, probably because the fine folks in Kansas want to teach that the earth revolves around Jesus and don't need the Feds telling them what's what.

[the_ouskull]

If teachers were paid as well as babysitters, I'd be happy.

No, that wasn't a joke. Considering that I've been teaching for three years now, and there are an equal number of kids that care about an education and kids that do not, AT BEST, and it's 70/30 at it's worst, here's MY breakdown.

Average Class: 20 students
Average Day: 7:45 - 3:30 (Let's take off half an hour for lunch, and another 15 just because and call it a seven hour work day... which, when you consider professional days, lesson planning, extra assignments, football games, concession stands, class sponsors, etc... isn't at ALL realistic...)
Average Week: 5 days

20 students times 7 hours at standard babysitter wages of $5/hour, cash, times 5 days per week. You do THAT math and tell me that the tiny pay I bring home for babysitting your snot noses is completely fair... I'm not teaching because I HAVE to, I'm teaching because I WANT to, but nobody else, NO other profession, sans plumbers, have to put up with as much sh*t as teachers for as little pay. Still, I only complain about what I make once a month... when the bills come. It's criminal what Oklahoma is paying it's teachers. Someone with 20 years experience is only making about $10K/year more than I do, too. That, sirs, is also ridiculous.

If more parents made their kids do well; CARED if their kids did well, it'd make our jobs that much easier. As it stands, ESPECIALLY in Oklahoma, they don't. So, rather than teach, teachers spend more time disciplining than they do what they're paid to do. Hence, the babysitting comment...

I make about $11/hour, take-home pay. If I only had two kids in each class, I could see that. I have 10 times that, on average. Oklahoma doesn't give a sh*t about it's level of education, or it would pay teachers more and keep more of the good ones here instead of losing them to states like Tejas, who starts their teachers out at almost $10K/year more.

In THAT sport, they own us.

the_ouskull

[C&CDean]

The NEA is a bottomless money pit, however, getting rid of it will not attract the best talent, it will attract talent willing to be paid less.

Personally, I think root of the problem is Jimbo and Anna Joe Cooter in Jet, Oklahoma feel that the gubmit don't know best how to teach their little son Darrel Cooter, so they form their own district. Consolidate districts, put the slackjawed yokels in there place and cut administration. It seems to be more of NIMBY situation than anything else. That said, I know nothing of professional education other than countries that are currently equipping a national curriculum with common national tests are kicking our *** at education. Once again, probably because the fine folks in Kansas want to teach that the earth revolves around Jesus and don't need the Feds telling them what's what.

This post has to rate as the most bigoted piece of rat **** I've ever seen on SF.com.

Congratulations.

[mdklatt]

I don't want to **** off any teachers or anything, but taking money away from the students to fund Union benefits is flat out wrong IMO. Are they wanting to throw money at educating the children or to the Union?

TRS is not a union benefit, at least not in Oklahoma. TRS covers all state university employees as well, although they recently changed the law so that new hires can opt out.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

As long as a union is involved, it's always gonna be a cluster****. Drop the commie AFL-CIO and start getting paid based on merit. Yeah, I know, a novel concept...

That being said, cops and teachers are the most underpaid professions out there.

i know several policemen up here that make over a 100k a year.

if you want to know how much of a money pit the NEA is, currently they are the main contributor to a smear campaign of dino rossi (republican governor candidate that won the election twice and then lost by about 43 votes to the current governor). it isn't so much that they are blasting a candidate who is about reform, a balanced budget, and giving back to citizens and not blank checks is the insane amount of times their ads have run. seriously, there is one ever available commercial slot from noon to midnight.

from www.dontknowdino.com
Top Five Contributors: Service Employees International Union Washington State Council, Democratic Governors Association, National Education Association, Washington Federation of State Employees, International Union of Painters & Allied Trades

why the state employees union? he froze their pay while a senator, the current governor has given them the largest pay raise in state history

currently the state is looking at a 10 billion dollar shortfall next year yet they are pumping millions into smeer campaigns.

[yermom]

If teachers were paid as well as babysitters, I'd be happy.

No, that wasn't a joke. Considering that I've been teaching for three years now, and there are an equal number of kids that care about an education and kids that do not, AT BEST, and it's 70/30 at it's worst, here's MY breakdown.

Average Class: 20 students
Average Day: 7:45 - 3:30 (Let's take off half an hour for lunch, and another 15 just because and call it a seven hour work day... which, when you consider professional days, lesson planning, extra assignments, football games, concession stands, class sponsors, etc... isn't at ALL realistic...)
Average Week: 5 days

20 students times 7 hours at standard babysitter wages of $5/hour, cash, times 5 days per week. You do THAT math and tell me that the tiny pay I bring home for babysitting your snot noses is completely fair... I'm not teaching because I HAVE to, I'm teaching because I WANT to, but nobody else, NO other profession, sans plumbers, have to put up with as much sh*t as teachers for as little pay. Still, I only complain about what I make once a month... when the bills come. It's criminal what Oklahoma is paying it's teachers. Someone with 20 years experience is only making about $10K/year more than I do, too. That, sirs, is also ridiculous.

If more parents made their kids do well; CARED if their kids did well, it'd make our jobs that much easier. As it stands, ESPECIALLY in Oklahoma, they don't. So, rather than teach, teachers spend more time disciplining than they do what they're paid to do. Hence, the babysitting comment...

I make about $11/hour, take-home pay. If I only had two kids in each class, I could see that. I have 10 times that, on average. Oklahoma doesn't give a sh*t about it's level of education, or it would pay teachers more and keep more of the good ones here instead of losing them to states like Tejas, who starts their teachers out at almost $10K/year more.

In THAT sport, they own us.

the_ouskull

maybe you should start a daycare :P

[mdklatt]

I haven't seen peep one about administrative bloat in state education.


The fact that there are "school districts" in this state that don't even have a high school is ridiculous. I'm not talking a separate high school building, but districts that don't even have grades 9-12. You end up having an elementary school that has its own superintendent. Consolidate the districts and save money on administration.

[yermom]

TRS is not a union benefit, at least not in Oklahoma. TRS covers all state university employees as well, although they recently changed the law so that new hires can opt out.

TRS can bite my *** :mad:

[soonerscuba]

This post has to rate as the most bigoted piece of rat **** I've ever seen on SF.com.

Congratulations.
You forgot to call me gay.

[C&CDean]

You forgot to call me gay.

You're right. "That's the most bigoted post I've ever seen a fag make on this board."

[Fugue]

You forgot to call me gay.

You don't enjoy being called names but you almost daily insult many of the folks on here who are Christians. Well done.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

God hates fags.

That's what a preacher in Kansas told me once.

[soonerscuba]

You don't enjoy being called names but you almost daily insult many of the folks on here who are Christians. Well done.
Doesn't bother me one way or another, just thought I would point out the irony of a person who routinely gay bashes and feels all Muslims are to be distrusted calling me a bigot. If thinking that most rural education districts are sub-par to there larger counterparts, and those folks prefer it that way makes me a bigot, so be it (although, the names might have been over the top).

I rarely Christian bash, as I feel the church is generally a good thing. I might poke a little fun once in a blue moon, but nothing over the top, IMO. If you're offended, that wasn't my intent, but you might be a little sensitive.

[Fugue]

Doesn't bother me one way or another, just thought I would point out the irony of a person who routinely gay bashes and feels all Muslims are to be distrusted calling me a bigot. If thinking that most rural education districts are sub-par to there larger counterparts, and those folks prefer it that way makes me a bigot, so be it (although, the names might have been over the top).

I rarely Christian bash, as I feel the church is generally a good thing. I might poke a little fun once in a blue moon, but nothing over the top, IMO. If you're offended, that wasn't my intent, but you might be a little sensitive.

Nah, I'm not offended. I understand that people on here are going to make dumbass posts.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I'm offended that no one made reference to my obvious attempt at an inflammatory post about that wank from Kansas.

[soonerscuba]

I understand that people on here are going to make dumbass posts.
Like saying I Christian bash daily, check the record sparky.

[Fugue]

Like saying I Christian bash daily, check the record sparky.

that's ok, that would mean I'd have to go back and read your posts again.
:gary:

[Scott D]

Ok, so why wouldn't everyone's pay be based on this logic......teachers are special?

some instances it is. for example, when I went to OU, I chose not to work for the same company I had worked for in New Jersey despite their having a presence that was near enough to Norman for me to continue employment. Namely because I would have taken a 35% drop in what I was getting paid between the two states.

[NormanPride]

My current pay is very much impacted by the cost of living in Tulsa. If I were to move to Seattle or New York, I could easily make 2x as much as I am now. However, I don't believe I'd be happier.

[badger]

NP's happy where he is, if you can't tell by the avatar:
http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/image.php?u=41264&dateline=1200696096
:D

I could also be making more outside Tulsa in my own profession, but I'm happy where I am now... mostly cuz of family.

This is clearly an issue that needs fixing... because I made the poll public, I might add that I voted for "MOAR!" because I think there are alternative ways to fund teacher pay than just tax the people more. The state majorly effed up the lottery. They should have sent the money directly to the schools and not just include it in the annual budget. As that graph shows on page 2, funding from the state percentage-wise has gone down and we can thank the lottery for that. They not only use the lottery money as part of funding schools always got, but they base state funding on lottery projections. PROJECTIONS! Remember when Gov. Henry projected that the state lottery would be raking in six figures?! We're talking about projections. NOT actual money. We're talking about PROJECTIONS. Not actual money, not actual money, we're talking about PROJECTIONS. Not the money tax payers go out and work for, not actual money - we're talking about PROJECTIONS, man. I mean, how silly is that?

;)

[the_ouskull]

You forgot to say "the money that the taxpayers go out and work for; die for - REAL money... they talkin' 'bout proJECTIONS."

the_ouskull

[Crimsontothecore]

Oklahoma teachers as a whole need a pay increase. My daughter in-law will complete her teaching degree this year and she knows going in that Oklahoma isn't the place to stay for top pay in her profession.

I get tired of comments like "they only work 8 months a year". If I'm not mistaken it is the teachers unions that push hardest for year round school anyway.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Oklahoma teachers as a whole need a pay increase. My daughter in-law will complete her teaching degree this year and she knows going in that Oklahoma isn't the place to stay for top pay in her profession.

I get tired of comments like "they only work 8 months a year". If I'm not mistaken it is the teachers unions that push hardest for year round school anyway.

But again, from where? Education already gets over half of the state's budget and just today I heard a news report about how administrators are grinchin' that they'll have to use used textbooks. We can't just crap money.

Demand reduction in administrative bloat. Demand reduction in administrative compensation. Demand K-12 programs that raise the bar for our children by increasing expectation and measures of success, has contingencies for those that simply don't have the intellectual tools, and accept the fact that there WILL be a percentage that won't make it. Make available an option for those in the manual trades.

We need to kick the bar back up in this state. Quit limpwristing the issue and lowering standards so that everyone's little Johnny and Suzie can pass, but in the meantime, EVERYONE suffers because no one has the balls to call a spade a spade and accept that Johnny and Suzie are idiots. Or that Johnny needs a strong back because while he's dumber than a sack of hammers, he has a knack for sighting a grade or laying a brick. Or that Suzie needs to learn how to sew because while 2+2=5 in her mind, she has a creative eye and an amazingly steady hand that'd make for one hell of a seamstress.

[SoonerBBall]

But again, from where? Education already gets over half of the state's budget and just today I heard a news report about how administrators are grinchin' that they'll have to use used textbooks. We can't just crap money.

Demand reduction in administrative bloat. Demand reduction in administrative compensation. Demand K-12 programs that raise the bar for our children by increasing expectation and measures of success, has contingencies for those that simply don't have the intellectual tools, and accept the fact that there WILL be a percentage that won't make it. Make available an option for those in the manual trades.

We need to kick the bar back up in this state. Quit limpwristing the issue and lowering standards so that everyone's little Johnny and Suzie can pass, but in the meantime, EVERYONE suffers because no one has the balls to call a spade a spade and accept that Johnny and Suzie are idiots. Or that Johnny needs a strong back because while he's dumber than a sack of hammers, he has a knack for sighting a grade or laying a brick. Or that Suzie needs to learn how to sew because while 2+2=5 in her mind, she has a creative eye and an amazingly steady hand that'd make for one hell of a seamstress.

I agree with what fat-*** Superman Ninja Turtle says.

[bonkuba]

ummm... private schools pay less, don't they? someone wanna speak on the record on this?

Most of the time you are correct.......private schools do pay less and do not have access to insurance. Again, this isn't 100%....but very high percentage. We have lived over most of the US and this holds true from small town to large city.

Since my wife is a teacher I do agree that they need more pay.....but as someone else said.....screw the union........the Teachers union is....well useless as any other union (they are good at taking your money though)......how about we start a SF.com union so we can take money away from people and stuff.....for well doing nothing :D :D :D

[sooneron]

But again, from where? Education already gets over half of the state's budget and just today I heard a news report about how administrators are grinchin' that they'll have to use used textbooks. We can't just crap money.

Demand reduction in administrative bloat. Demand reduction in administrative compensation. Demand K-12 programs that raise the bar for our children by increasing expectation and measures of success, has contingencies for those that simply don't have the intellectual tools, and accept the fact that there WILL be a percentage that won't make it. Make available an option for those in the manual trades.

We need to kick the bar back up in this state. Quit limpwristing the issue and lowering standards so that everyone's little Johnny and Suzie can pass, but in the meantime, EVERYONE suffers because no one has the balls to call a spade a spade and accept that Johnny and Suzie are idiots. Or that Johnny needs a strong back because while he's dumber than a sack of hammers, he has a knack for sighting a grade or laying a brick. Or that Suzie needs to learn how to sew because while 2+2=5 in her mind, she has a creative eye and an amazingly steady hand that'd make for one hell of a seamstress.
I agree quite a bit with the last paragraph. I have often felt that there is not enough vocational training in the US. However, your first question pretty much applies to setting up all of these schools for the kids that are going to fall through the cracks. Where is THAT money going to come from?

[badger]

Most of the time you are correct.......private schools do pay less and do not have access to insurance. Again, this isn't 100%....but very high percentage. We have lived over most of the US and this holds true from small town to large city.

Since my wife is a teacher I do agree that they need more pay.....but as someone else said.....screw the union........the Teachers union is....well useless as any other union (they are good at taking your money though)......how about we start a SF.com union so we can take money away from people and stuff.....for well doing nothing :D :D :D

My parents' biggest beef with the teach union was that it protected bad teachers and did comparatively nothing for good, hard working teachers. Not sure if this is true down here, but it sure seemed pretty true up north.

[badger]

Quit limpwristing the issue and lowering standards so that everyone's little Johnny and Suzie can pass, but in the meantime, EVERYONE suffers because no one has the balls to call a spade a spade and accept that Johnny and Suzie are idiots. Or that Johnny needs a strong back because while he's dumber than a sack of hammers, he has a knack for sighting a grade or laying a brick. Or that Suzie needs to learn how to sew because while 2+2=5 in her mind, she has a creative eye and an amazingly steady hand that'd make for one hell of a seamstress.

There was a disabled kid in my grade that joined in when I was in about 10th grade. His mother would not permit the school to give him any grade lower than an A-. They decided that to be fair to the other kids in my class whose parents would allow the school to give grades lower than A-, they wouldn't count him in class rankings for scholarship and college acceptance purposes.

I still ranked ahead of him :D It gave me a good retort to the teacher with the "I don't give grades. YOU earn them" poster on her wall.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I agree quite a bit with the last paragraph. I have often felt that there is not enough vocational training in the US. However, your first question pretty much applies to setting up all of these schools for the kids that are going to fall through the cracks. Where is THAT money going to come from?

It's already there. The vocational training is in place and has been in place for as long as I've been around. You can learn anything from HVAC to mason trades at places like Lewis Eubanks, Tulsa Tech, EOC, et cetera. That's nothing new and a lot of kids already take advantage of this. Some counselors use vocational training as a good alternative for our high school youth, not just a dumping ground for stoners and retards. But children and parents need honest, straight from the barrel truth. They aren't getting it now and as the bar continues to slide to meet the Mendoza Line, what happens? The majority of students play to the standard, move on to the real world, and get kicked right in the balls.

I also forgot to include JROTC, a program that would give yet another viable option, preparation for military service that's not as prevalent as I'd personally like to see it.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

i just don't understand the "we can't buy new books" argument. because of the absolute suckitude of washington's school system, we decided to homeschool 3 years ago.

we buy one of the best curriculums on the market which includes text books, teacher's editions, workbooks, and supplementals and it costs us $950 for both kids - oh and this is for 9 subjects.

[NormanPride]

That $$ cuts into the administrators' "seminar" fund. I mean, kids can share books, but sending the Principal off to Chicago all expenses paid to learn about how to discipline kids is a bit harder to replace.

[the_ouskull]

We need to kick the bar back up in this state. Quit limpwristing the issue and lowering standards so that everyone's little Johnny and Suzie can pass, but in the meantime, EVERYONE suffers because no one has the balls to call a spade a spade and accept that Johnny and Suzie are idiots. Or that Johnny needs a strong back because while he's dumber than a sack of hammers, he has a knack for sighting a grade or laying a brick. Or that Suzie needs to learn how to sew because while 2+2=5 in her mind, she has a creative eye and an amazingly steady hand that'd make for one hell of a seamstress.

I liked this better the first time it got said...


Well... the world needs ditchdiggers too, son.

...and, as a teacher, I happen to agree. There should be two distinct paths in schools. The "give-a-sh*t" path, and the "don't-give-a-sh*t" path.

the_ouskull