Im a firm believer In the 2nd Amendment But

[olevetonahill]

Something needs to be done .
I read yesterday about 2 different shootings Involving Kids :mad:
A young Man was in the Garage and fired a rifle thru the House Killing His Mom .
Another a 14 yr old accidently shot a 12 yr Old .
Come On Peeps If your Going to Have Kids and Weapons Be responsible .
Lock one of em up .
I dont Know the answer But something Needs to change .

[Hamhock]

we could merge this thread with the kid/carseat thread.

guns are not the issue.

[olevetonahill]

Just stupid Adults ?

[Hamhock]

Just stupid Adults ?

yes. and stuff happens.

we could start a thread on swimming pools too.

a friend of ours kid hung himself playing with rope in the woods.

these are tragedies of the worst kind. afterwards, it always seems like they were easily preventable.

p.s. i am a huge advocate for gun safety. all but one of the guns in my house have trigger locks, are kept in a locked gun cabinet, in a locked room. however, i take my kids hunting and shooting. accidents happen and they happen fast. ultimately, i'm trusting in a sovereign God for the well being of my family.

[olevetonahill]

Good Man
But Not all parents are that careful.
I also took My Boys Hunting and drilled Gun safety in to em .

[r5TPsooner]

Just stupid Adults ?


Children having children?

[olevetonahill]

Children having children?

I think I read the Mom that got shot was 37. the Kid wasnt a teenager
so I dont think that was it in that case.

[OU4LIFE]

I think I read the Mom that got shot was 37. the Kid wasnt a teenager
so I dont think that was it in that case.

she should have let him have that cookie....

[Soonrboy]

This is the worst thing about parenting...

I'm not worried about what I teach my children. I worry more about what other people don't teach theirs.

I'd hate to lose a child to someone who didn't make them buckle up, or who left guns open and available.

I can't rely on divine intervention to keep my kids safe.

[Bone]

This is the worst thing about parenting...

I'm not worried about what I teach my children. I worry more about what other people don't teach theirs.

Exactly. It is going to be hell when my daughter is old enough to get out and socialize. I'll steer her as best I can to befriending smart kids instead of idiots.

[Hamhock]

Good Man
But Not all parents are that careful.
I also took My Boys Hunting and drilled Gun safety in to em .


true, but my point is that even the most careful parents lose the most well-trained children to freak accidents.

[Okla-homey]

I generally favor regulation of procreative rights.

but seriously folks, the law is clear you can't infringe on a persons' right to bear children. period. Bear arms? Sure. Bear children? nadda.

That said, perhaps we need meaningful dialogue on placing reasonable limits on those rights. Problem is, it would be perceived as classism, racism or both. End result? Continued 1) sky-rocketing illegitimacy rates and 2) children who must raise themselves amid perpetual poverty who in turn become parents too early.

For example. I have a dream. Can you imagine the hue and cry that would result against anyone who proposed a Constitutional amendment allowing states to require unmarried girls between the ages of 14 and 20 to submit to free depo injections every six months? And by gum, if they ever come up with shot that kills a boy's swimmers temporarily, I'd include unmarried boys between 14 and 20 too.

Crazy talk? Sure, but think about the benefits for both the moms and children, and society at large.

This issue is the most pressing social problem we face. Its bigger than the war, the cost of gas, and predatory mortgage lenders combined.

Anyhoo, I can dream can't I?

[Hamhock]

I generally favor regulation of procreative rights.

but seriously folks, the law is clear you can't infringe on a persons' right to bear children. period. Bear arms? Sure. Bear children? nadda.

That said, perhaps we need meaningful dialogue on placing reasonable limits on those rights. Problem is, it would be perceived as classism, racism or both. End result? Continued 1) sky-rocketing illegitimacy rates and 2) children who must raise themselves amid perpetual poverty who in turn become parents too early.

For example. I have a dream. Can you imagine the hue and cry that would result against anyone who proposed a Constitutional amendment allowing states to require unmarried girls between the ages of 14 and 20 to submit to free depo injections every six months? And by gum, if they ever come up with shot that kills a boy's swimmers temporarily, I'd include unmarried boys between 14 and 20 too.

Crazy talk? Sure, but think about the benefits for both the moms and children, and society at large.

This issue is the most pressing social problem we face. Its bigger than the war, the cost of gas, and predatory mortgage lenders combined.

Anyhoo, I can dream can't I?


imo, a big deterrent could be for the gubm't to stop bailing people out of the consequences of their actions.

[Okla-homey]

imo, a big deterrent could be for the gubm't to stop bailing people out of the consequences of their actions.

I hear you, but once those kiddoes are here, we can't let them starve and they deserve an opportunity for a decent life. Lord knows they didn't choose to be born. That's why we have to do something on the supply end if we're ever going to turn this sucka around.

[Hamhock]

I hear you, but once those kiddoes are here, we can't let them starve and they deserve an opportunity for a decent life. Lord knows they didn't choose to be born. That's why we have to do something on the supply end if we're ever going to turn this sucka around.

yea, but it's not just the supply, it's the mindset. many of these girls consider it a badge of honor to get knocked up. it's like having a baby daddy is more desirable than a college degree.

they just wouldn't get the shots.

[r5TPsooner]

true, but my point is that even the most careful parents lose the most well-trained children to freak accidents.


I almost shot my nephew when I was ten years old the 1st time that I went duck hunting. I took and passed all of the gun safety classes that you can take. When a person is operating a gun, human error always has to equate into the situation.

I thought that my BIL was gonna shove the the barrel of my gun up my ascot after I pulled the trigger. I never made that mistake ever again.

[Hamhock]

I almost shot my nephew when I was ten years old the 1st time that I went duck hunting. I took and passed all of the gun safety classes that you can take. When a person is operating a gun, human error always has to equate into the situation.

I thought that my BIL was gonna shove the the barrel of my guu up my *** after I pulled the trigger. I never made that mistake ever again.

yes, but it's not just guns.

i know a girl that was jet skiing on vacation. she smashed another girl and killed her.

freak accidents happen.

[Okla-homey]

yea, but it's not just the supply, it's the mindset. many of these girls consider it a badge of honor to get knocked up. it's like having a baby daddy is more desirable than a college degree.

they just wouldn't get the shots.

They would if you made it a condition of receiving any public benefit including public school and drivers license and made it a crime for any parent to knowingly permit their kid not to take the shot without notifiying the appropriate authority.

That would help. You could guarentee compliance if you made it a felony for any purveyor of cellular phones or cellular phone service to provide service to a girl who did not have proof of the injections.;)

[r5TPsooner]

To err is human. When I was still working on the Pediatric ICU I would see some sad sheet. The worst was a 15 year old boy who didn't like his life very much so he downed one of those industrial sized Tylenol bottles you get at Sam's Club filled with Tylenol Extra Strength to off himself. I believe he swallowed about 300 of the 500 before he lost consciousness. he was already a goner before they ever brought him into the ICU.

Popular kid in school, three sport athlete, and a straight A student. He never did regain consciousness, and he died after about a month and a half after they brought him in.

[mdklatt]

yes, but it's not just guns.

i know a girl that was jet skiing on vacation. she smashed another girl and killed her.

freak accidents happen.

It's not a "freak accident" when somebody is killed or injured by gun, because that's what guns are designed to do. They are fundamentally different than any other consumer product in that regard. Ignoring this difference is foolish.

[Hamhock]

It's not a "freak accident" when somebody is killed or injured by gun, because that's what guns are designed to do. They are fundamentally different than any other consumer product in that regard. Ignoring this difference is foolish.

don't forget knives.

and many guns are not designed to kill people.

[Okla-homey]

It's not a "freak accident" when somebody is killed or injured by gun, because that's what guns are designed to do. They are fundamentally different than any other consumer product in that regard. Ignoring this difference is foolish.

True, but keep it in perspective. More folks will be killed nationally in car wrecks this month than will be killed by gun accidents this decade.

[mdklatt]

don't forget knives.

and many guns are not designed to kill people.

Unless you're talking about a starter pistol or something, a gun is intended to be used as a weapon. Knives have non-weapon uses, and most knives are not intended to be used as weapons.

[Sooner_Havok]

Let me preface my statements be saying that this is a tragedy.

That said, folks who have kids, and leave their guns sitting around were said kids can get a hold of them should all know what the end outcome will be. I guaran-damn-tee you that the folks that leave guns just laying around in easily accessible places are the same folks that say "You can have my guns when you pry them from my cold dead hands!" They make guns seem glamorous and cool, teach their kids that guns are an undeniable American right, and that guns don't kill people. Then they are surprised when the kids pick up the guns when they are away.

I ain't saying that all card carrying NRA types are irresponsible, far from it, most 2nd amendment types are the safest gun toting lunatics you will ever meet. But you do get those who feel that a gun lock is an infringement on their rights, and those types usually aren't the casual gun enthusiasts.

Look, I was raised around guns, I got my first 12 gauge when I was 10, but my pop kept all the guns in the house locked up and out of my reach. You can drill into your kids head a million times that you don't aim a gun at anything you don't intend to kill, but the kid will still think his gun is the coolest damn thing since Miles Davis. When I got my shotgun, I wouldn't shut up about it at school for weeks. All my friends wanted to see it, but I couldn't show it to them since the damn thing was locked up. If I wanted to show it off, I had to wait for the old man to come home so he could get it out, check it out, and then show it to my buddies.

[Frozen Sooner]

Let me preface my statements be saying that this is a tragedy.

That said, folks who have kids, and leave their guns sitting around were said kids can get a hold of them should all know what the end outcome will be. I guaran-damn-tee you that the folks that leave guns just laying around in easily accessible places are the same folks that say "You can have my guns when you pry them from my cold dead hands!" They make guns seem glamorous and cool, teach their kids that guns are an undeniable American right, and that guns don't kill people. Then they are surprised when the kids pick up the guns when they are away.

I ain't saying that all card carrying NRA types are irresponsible, far from it, most 2nd amendment types are the safest gun toting lunatics you will ever meet. But you do get those who feel that a gun lock is an infringement on their rights, and those types usually aren't the casual gun enthusiasts.

Look, I was raised around guns, I got my first 12 gauge when I was 10, but my pop kept all the guns in the house locked up and out of my reach. You can drill into your kids head a million times that you don't aim a gun at anything you don't intend to kill, but the kid will still think his gun is the coolest damn thing since Miles Davis. When I got my shotgun, I wouldn't shut up about it at school for weeks. All my friends wanted to see it, but I couldn't show it to them since the damn thing was locked up. If I wanted to show it off, I had to wait for the old man to come home so he could get it out, check it out, and then show it to my buddies.

I would dispute that, actually. Most of the dyed-in-the-wool NRAers I know are very responsible about gun ownership and safety.

People who treat gun ownership casually tend to be the ones who don't treat their weapons with respect.

In other words, I have yet to meet a gang-banger who was an NRA member.

[Hamhock]

Unless you're talking about a starter pistol or something, a gun is intended to be used as a weapon. Knives have non-weapon uses, and most knives are not intended to be used as weapons.

agreed, which is why guns should be treated carefully and stored properly.

it may be splitting hairs, but guns are not designed to kill people accidentally.

[mdklatt]

it may be splitting hairs, but guns are not designed to kill people accidentally.

That's my point. When people start arguing against gun regulation, you always hear something sarcastic like "why isn't anybody calling for a waiting period on steak knives?" Guns are fundamentally different.

[Sooner_Havok]

I would dispute that, actually. Most of the dyed-in-the-wool NRAers I know are very responsible about gun ownership and safety.

People who treat gun ownership casually tend to be the ones who don't treat their weapons with respect.

In other words, I have yet to meet a gang-banger who was an NRA member.

I totally agreed with you on the NRA types being very safe in general. I would argue that 99% of them do exactly what they are supposed to do as far as gun safety. But I doubt these kids had gang-banging parents. These guns were probably "protection" guns, left sitting in a nightstand or under a bed. Most people I know who own a "protection" gun aren't the same people advocating gun regulation and safety though. They are the "I have a right to own a gun!" types. I just don't know many people who own guns for protection that don't subscribe to that theory. Point is, these are the folks that should know how best to store a gun, but for whatever reason choose not to.

[jkjsooner]

we could merge this thread with the kid/carseat thread.

guns are not the issue.

Yes, but we allow regulation of cars. You have to prove you can drive before being licensed. We force parents to use car seats for their children. Etc.

The NRA believe it's fine and dandy to require licensing before operating something that may accidentally kill someone. They want absolutely no regulation before operating something that is designed to kill.

Anyway, so I agree that this is very similar to the carseat thread but the govt has much more power to regulate things involving vehicles.

[Hamhock]

Yes, but we allow regulation of cars. You have to prove you can drive before being licensed. We force parents to use car seats for their children. Etc.

The NRA believe it's fine and dandy to require licensing before operating something that may accidentally kill someone. They want absolutely no regulation before operating something that is designed to kill.

Anyway, so I agree that this is very similar to the carseat thread but the govt has much more power to regulate things involving vehicles.

it's a bummer the framers left out the 11th Amendment - Right to Transport Your Kid Without a Carseat

[Harry Beanbag]

It's not a "freak accident" when somebody is killed or injured by gun, because that's what guns are designed to do. They are fundamentally different than any other consumer product in that regard. Ignoring this difference is foolish.


A gun only does what the operator tells it to do. The gun doesn't "accidentally" go off and kill somebody, but the operator can "accidentally" pull the trigger when they don't mean to. Somebody cleaning their gun and discharging it in the process and killing their grandma in the next room is just as much of an accident as somebody's kid drowning in the backyard pool. Ignoring this difference is irresponsible and suggests an agenda.

[Sooner_Havok]

A gun only does what the operator tells it to do. The gun doesn't "accidentally" go off and kill somebody, but the operator can "accidentally" pull the trigger when they don't mean to. Somebody cleaning their gun and discharging it in the process and killing their grandma in the next room is just as much of an accident as somebody's kid drowning in the backyard pool. Ignoring this difference is irresponsible and suggests an agenda.

My belief is, if you have something you know could kill your kids, be it a gun or a pool, and you don't take the proper actions to prevent death or injury from happening, you get what you have coming.

[Harry Beanbag]

My belief is, if you have something you know could kill your kids, be it a gun or a pool, and you don't take the proper actions to prevent death or injury from happening, you get what you have coming.

I definitely agree.

[85Sooner]

Require firearm edumacation for everyone!

[Sooner_Havok]

Require firearm edumacation for everyone!

Why? I would simply refuse to take it. They can't take my guns away just cause I refuse to take some stupid "safety course":texan:

[Hamhock]

My belief is, if you have something you know could kill your kids, be it a gun or a pool, and you don't take the proper actions to prevent death or injury from happening, you get what you have coming.

nobody deserves to have their children die

[Sooner_Havok]

nobody deserves to have their children die

Maybe not, but if they fail to take steps to prevent tragedies like this from happening, then they have no one to blame but themselves. A Master Trigger gun lock run about $9. $9 to avert a tragedy. Seems like a reasonable price to pay IMHO

[Jerk]

The peace of mind that comes from owning a gun safe is priceless. But I'm not for mandating them. I think, rather, that you leave parents open for criminal and civil liability when they leave guns in the reach of unsupervised kids and something bad happens.

[Sooner_Havok]

The peace of mind that comes from owning a gun safe is priceless. But I'm not for mandating them. I think, rather, that you leave parents open for criminal and civil liability when they leave guns in the reach of unsupervised kids.

http://www.allemoticons.com/Happy/applause.gif

[Frozen Sooner]

The peace of mind that comes from owning a gun safe is priceless. But I'm not for mandating them. I think, rather, that you leave parents open for criminal and civil liability when they leave guns in the reach of unsupervised kids and something bad happens.

Civil liability to whom?

If your own kid manages to knock himself off because of your negligence with guns, then who would recover damages?

So far as I know, if an invited guest in your home is injured at all you already bear civil liability.

[Jerk]

Civil liability to whom?

If your own kid manages to knock himself off because of your negligence with guns, then who would recover damages?

So far as I know, if an invited guest in your home is injured at all you already bear civil liability.

This is who I meant...one of the kid's friends. I should have figured it so, when I know for fact that if you own a pool, with a large fence, and signs everywhere that say 'no swimming,' that you are STILL liable if the neighbor's tot drowns in it.

eta- which I think is bullsh** because the pool owner, in this case, has done everything within reason to keep this from happening.

[Frozen Sooner]

This is who I meant...one of the kid's friends. I should have figured it so, when I know for fact that if you own a pool, with a large fence, and signs everywhere that say 'no swimming,' that you are STILL liable if the neighbor's tot drowns in it.

eta- which I think is bullsh** because the pool owner, in this case, has done everything within reason to keep this from happening.

Pools are inherently dangerous and are attractive to juveniles. That's why pool owners bear strict liability for any injury-even to trespassers-resulting from the ownership of a pool. The pool owner hasn't done everything within reason to prevent injury-doing everything would be to not have one. That, at least, is the theory behind it.

I don't believe that gun owners bear strict liability, but I do believe that if a weapon is improperly stored that the homeowner does bear liability to invited guests or licensees.

[Jerk]

Pools are inherently dangerous and are attractive to juveniles. That's why pool owners bear strict liability for any injury-even to trespassers-resulting from the ownership of a pool. The pool owner hasn't done everything within reason to prevent injury-doing everything would be to not have one. That, at least, is the theory behind it.

I don't believe that gun owners bear strict liability, but I do believe that if a weapon is improperly stored that the homeowner does bear liability to invited guests or licensees.


The homeowner with the pool can always use pit bulls to guard the property.

I keed.

[olevetonahill]

Paid up Life Time NRA Member here.
I have Loaded weapons everywhere , I have No kids And when My Grandkids Come up they are watched and KNOW not to touch.
My Point Is If Ya have Kids and Guns Lock something the **** up !
Ill sing the Old song . GUNS DONT KILL ! PEOPLE DO !
I dont want a Pro gun anti gun Debate Here . What Id like to see Is some constructive Ideas about How to Handle Kids and Guns .

[Jerk]

I don't believe that gun owners bear strict liability, but I do believe that if a weapon is improperly stored that the homeowner does bear liability to invited guests or licensees.


Exactly. I was going to add that I don't think gunowners should be liable for thieves and their actions with stolen guns...but you have said it for me in not-so-many words.

Unless it is just plain stupid negligence, like, leaving a gun on your front porch with a sign that says "free automatic pistol, please take!"

[MR2-Sooner86]

It's not a "freak accident" when somebody is killed or injured by gun, because that's what guns are designed to do. They are fundamentally different than any other consumer product in that regard. Ignoring this difference is foolish.

Really? Then what do you say about rat poison? Deadly chemicals that are right under the kitchen sink? They are made to kill yet we keep them around without thinking twice about it. So it's not a "freak accident" if a child eats some poison? What about BB guns? Sling shots? Bows? They're made to be able to kill so is it not a "freak accident" if a child is killed by one of those? Then we can open a whole new can of worms with dog breeds. Is that not a "freak accident" if a dog kills a kid?

Anyway, I went and dug up some stats. I found these but I'm trying to find yearly ones.

Yearly, poison control centers receives more than 1 million calls from poisoning for children 5 and under alone.
About 60 children die each year in accidental firearm deaths, and several hundred more are injured.
About 1800 children are killed each year in auto accidents.
About 1,000 children die each year from drowning, and several thousand more suffer permanent injuries.
There are around 380,000 residential structure fires each year.
Between 500 and 600 children lose their lives in house fires.
150,000 children are rushed to the hospital each year for toy related injuries
About 100,000 children are treated in emergency rooms each year for burns.
About 8300 children are accidentally shot each year
4000 children suffer brain damage each year from almost drowning.
There are between 600 and 800 child pedestrian deaths every year, and between 40,000 and 50,000 serious injuries.

The most important statistic:
Experts estimate between 75 to 90% of these tragedies could be avoided through better safety awareness.

http://www.keepyourchildsafe.org/child_safety_stats.asp

As you can see it's a dangerous world out there. Yes it's sad when a child is killed by a gun but as you can see their own toys can kill as well as your drain cleaner. As stated though is it the guns or is it parents?

I found this nice little stat.

22% of American women aged 20 gave birth while in their teens.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us-united-states/hea-health

Hey it gets better! We're the #1 country in teen pregnacy!

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_tee_pre_sha-health-teenage-pregnancy-share

[olevetonahill]

Good stuff Mr2
I think a lot of it is the Fact we Hear of Accidental Gun deaths More than anything else.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Well I found some more stats.

TYPES OF ACCIDENTAL DEATHS, USA 2002
(MVA = Motor Vehicle Accident) ACCIDENT PERCENT
(1) Motor vehicle (MVA) 44.3%
(2) Falls 17.8%
(3) Poison,liq/solid 13.0%
(4) Drowning 3.9%
(5) Fires, Burns,Smoke 3.4%
(6) Medical/Surgical Complication 3.1%
(7) Other land transport 1.5%
(8) Firearms 0.8%
(9) Other (nontransport) 17.8%

44% of non-motor vehicle accidents occurred in the home:


NON-MVAS, USA 1992 HOME ACCIDENT PERCENT
(1) Falls 31.8%
(2) Poison(sol/liq) 21.0%
(3) Fire,burns 16.4%
(4) Obstructed airway 8.7%
(5) Suffocation 3.6%
(6) Firearms 2.6%
(7) Poison(gas) 2.1%
(8) All other 13.8%

http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/causes.html

I just posted a couple but there are many tables and stats on that site.

I also found this site but since it's called "gun owners" I figured many wouldn't consider it a reliable source. However I'll post it for whoever to read and see it.

http://www.gunowners.org/fs0404.htm

Also another good one. Yes it's old but still.

"High school football killed as many students last year as did guns."

http://www.treachery.net/~jdyson/rkba/guns_and_football.html

[GrapevineSooner]

Maybe it's because I'm partial to this particular blogger, but I think he has some very good advice (http://blog.robballen.com/archive/2008/02/07/Brimming-with-pride.aspx).


I had pulled out the .22 rifle to examine it. It's a cheap Armscor M1600 that I got many years ago.


http://blog.robballen.com/images/blog_robballen_com/WindowsLiveWriter/Brimmingwithpride_11663/image_6446752f-f073-4245-a947-9c1d0724d311.png


Surprisingly accurate for an inexpensive rifle, and I got it in my head that I should paint it in some sort of girlie colors and give it to my daughters. The Hello Kitty thing has been done to death, so I'm thinking Care Bears or My Little Pony. Of course, I have a plethora of themes to choose from off of Noggin (http://www.noggin.com/). Wow Wow Wubbzy could be kind of cool.


Anyway, I was working on pulling it apart when I heard my oldest daughter yell "Daddy! I found a gun!!! I'm leaving the room!" I almost broke my leg going to check it out. I was scared that I had inadvertently left the shotgun or my carry piece on the bed. Luckily for me, it was just the gun case for the .22, but she knew enough to not get near it. There is so much pride in me right now that I wanted to share with all of you because there's a very, very important lesson here.


Even if you hate guns and think they should be wiped off the face of the Earth, you should teach your children what to do if they find one. Even at only 5 years old my daughter knew not to touch what she thought was a gun. The very first thing she did was tell an adult. The next thing she did was leave the room. Would your child do the same?


Your children should know this. It should be repeated to them every time you think about it. If you're a gun owner, make sure you sit with your sons and / or daughters and let them see your firearms when you clean them. There is nothing wrong with obsessing over safety with them because as this example shows, it will take hold in their little minds.


BTW, I've already started to drill in my daughter's head that should she be at somebody's house on a play date and find a gun, she should immediately leave the room and tell an adult.

By all means, adults should practice responsible ownership of weapons and do their best to keep guns away from children, just as you would for anything else that could be used as a weapon.

But you should also take time to educate your kids on guns, what they're used for, and what they're capable of.

[Scott D]

well something else that might help in the safety regard, is to try and teach children to treat toy guns as if they are real guns. I think the way they make the toys and how parents just assume a toy is a toy is something that works towards the desensitization of firearms in general. Between that and the irresponsibility of tv/film, it's pretty easy to see why there are a great deal of people whom don't respect firearms properly, and become careless with them, leading to their children being careless with them.

Also, a daughter is generally a different situation than a son in regards to guns. They don't necessarily in general think they are as "cool" as a boy.

[GrapevineSooner]

Yeah, good point on the son vs. daughter angle on how to approach the issue.

Generally speaking, boys think guns are cool while girls are scared of them. Best solution seems to be to work towards the middle with each.