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kbsooner
6/27/2008, 09:39 PM
after next season. On the front page of CBSsportsline for top prospects for next year's draft, rated as the #1 prospect. WOW.

http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/10879792

badger
6/27/2008, 10:06 PM
tee hee :weak smile:

piusbovis
6/27/2008, 10:26 PM
That's crazy he stayed another year; I love OU but I'm not sure if I could pass up a certain multimillion dollar contract and the high life to stay in Norman.

Any poke fan or other degenerate who wants to rag on the Griffins clearly doesn't recognize someone with integrity and conviction. Putting off something like that to spend more time on the court with his brother? Whatever you can say about him Griffin is one principled dude.

tommieharris91
6/27/2008, 10:27 PM
That's crazy he stayed another year; I love OU but I'm not sure if I could pass up a certain multimillion dollar contract and the high life to stay in Norman.

Any poke fan or other degenerate who wants to rag on the Griffins clearly doesn't recognize someone with integrity and conviction. Putting off something like that to spend more time on the court with his brother? Whatever you can say about him Griffin is one principled dude.

Ohh come on. He's staying in Norman because we're paying him. ;)

badger
6/27/2008, 10:35 PM
bros before doughs.

BillyBall
6/27/2008, 11:01 PM
Ohh come on. He's staying in Norman because we're paying him. ;)

80%, or 8 of 10, are being paid off. Its a given.

Big Red Ron
6/28/2008, 12:22 AM
I hope our Sonics lose every game next season.

sooner59
6/28/2008, 12:32 AM
They sure wont make the playoffs, thats a given. They obviously drafted thinking of the long term and not a quick fix. Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Blake Griffin.....add in some foreign guys and maybe a trade for another solid inside guy and the Sonics would be fun to watch in a few years.

Soonerus
6/28/2008, 12:35 AM
It is not fair to criticize Blake for staying in college an extra year and playing bball with his brother. I respect him for that decision...

Big Red Ron
6/28/2008, 12:36 AM
It is not fair to criticize Blake for staying in college an extra year and playing bball with his brother. I respect him for that decision...
:pop:

sooner2b09
6/28/2008, 01:07 AM
same with ESPN

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2009/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=09draftpreview-080627

Eielson
6/28/2008, 06:45 AM
It is not fair to criticize Blake for staying in college an extra year and playing bball with his brother. I respect him for that decision...

It also isn't fair when his decision to stay looks like it will make him go from a top 10 pick to the #1 pick. That looks like a smart decision to me. What are you looking for when you jump in the draft early? Fame and money. You are gonna get more money as the #1 pick and a lot more fame. An All-American season and a good NCAA Tournament run could make him famous as a college player and not just an NBA player. He also could end up being the rookie of the year.

kbsooner
6/28/2008, 07:30 AM
So what happens if WW rips it up this year? Two OU 1st rounders?

badger
6/28/2008, 08:04 AM
So what happens if WW rips it up this year? Two OU 1st rounders?

There are very good reasons to hold out for higher draft status. Most leave early for the money, so let's just focus on that:

1- Leaving early does not mean money now. Miss State had a junior that jumped early to go undrafted.

2- Getting drafted does not guarantee money now. Second round picks, by the end, are more of a formality than team actually thinking you can play on their squad next season. D-League or worse, here you come!

3- Getting drafted high guarantees more money. Higher first round picks have the higher guaranteed contracts than mid and lower first rounders. All part of the sliding scale.

4- Incredibly high picks get the endorsements. NBA rookie deals are not where the real money's at. A $5 mil-per-season Nike/Adidas contract is pretty much guaranteed for the players that go 1-2, however. A flashy guard like WW might get that type of money so long as he goes in the top 5.

5- You only get drafted once (I know there are ways out of this, but for the most part, only once). Higher draft picks are more important to a team than lower draft picks and have a better chance of making a roster by default. No matter where you go, there is no do-over, your basketball card will always label you as the "undrafted," or the "second round, pick 60" you were that night you waited in the green room with misinformation.

Blake Griffin waiting a year makes him go from a guaranteed first rounder to a guaranteed lottery pick. Goooo, Blake! :D

the_ouskull
6/28/2008, 10:10 AM
Another ESPN article on our boy Blake. Sweetness...

http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/rank?draftyear=2009&univLogin02=stateChanged

the_ouskull

r5TPsooner
6/28/2008, 10:13 AM
I just don't get it. He's a solid player but not a #1 pick in the draft.

goingoneight
6/28/2008, 11:53 AM
This thread just totally ruined Poke fan's day. :D

Hella Sideburns
6/28/2008, 01:31 PM
I hope our Sonics lose every game next season.

Eep, that's almost too great to pass up.

Westbrook, Green, Durant and Big Blake. Most athletic team in the league. Oh man, the Ford would be rocking during those home games.

bri
6/28/2008, 02:06 PM
Um, you guys do realize that the NBA has a draft lottery, so even if Seattle goes 0-82 next year they could still miss out on the #1 pick?

What am I talking about? This is Soonerfans.com. Of course you guys don't know that.

tommieharris91
6/28/2008, 02:10 PM
Um, you guys do realize that the NBA has a draft lottery, so even if Seattle goes 0-82 next year they could still miss out on the #1 pick?

What am I talking about? This is Soonerfans.com. Of course you guys don't know that.

You're implying the draft lottery isn't rigged.

bri
6/28/2008, 02:41 PM
You're implying the draft lottery would be rigged for the Sonics.

Eielson
6/28/2008, 02:50 PM
Um, you guys do realize that the NBA has a draft lottery, so even if Seattle goes 0-82 next year they could still miss out on the #1 pick?

What am I talking about? This is Soonerfans.com. Of course you guys don't know that.

The odds are that an 0-82 team would get the first pick.

Scott D
6/28/2008, 02:59 PM
Um, you guys do realize that the NBA has a draft lottery, so even if Seattle goes 0-82 next year they could still miss out on the #1 pick?

What am I talking about? This is Soonerfans.com. Of course you guys don't know that.

I'm gonna agree with bri on this. The Mavericks have a better chance with a 30 win season to win the draft lottery than a winless Sonics team even if they ARE in OKC.

bri
6/28/2008, 03:25 PM
The odds are that an 0-82 team would get the first pick.

Yes, they are. But it's not a given, as Chicago getting the #1 pick with a 1.5% chance shows us.

And who says OKC fans aren't NBA-savvy?

the_ouskull
6/28/2008, 04:11 PM
Seattle fans. You know, the ones that weren't GOING to the games, and, therefore, were the impetus for the move to OKC in the first place. Idiots.

If they'd have coughed up a "keep up with the times" arena when asked to, and if they'd have come out and supported their team the way that we supported a team that wasn't even (but should have been... grrr...) ours, then this wouldn't be an issue. Considering that the last two teams to "audition" in/for OKC; NOLA and Seattle, both have worse attendance records in their "home" cities than they did/will in OKC, this is a no-brainer to me. One city wants the team, and will support it. The other only supports it now because they don't want to lose it. Fair? Not entirely. Unfair? Not to us.

:D

the_ouskull

the_ouskull
6/28/2008, 04:25 PM
Not correcting... just clarifying a few points.


There are very good reasons to hold out for higher draft status. Most leave early for the money, so let's just focus on that:

1- Leaving early does not mean money now. Miss State had a junior that jumped early to go undrafted.

Absolutely. Happens every year. That's why players are allowed to workout at pre-draft camps and return back to college as long as they don't sign with an agent, and do it by a particular date. There are a lot more Ronnie Fields' out there than there are Lebron James'.

2- Getting drafted does not guarantee money now. Second round picks, by the end, are more of a formality than team actually thinking you can play on their squad next season. D-League or worse, here you come!

Yep. First-round picks get guaranteed, 3-year contracts. The salaries are slotted, so there's no confusion as to what they're making, other than their shoe deals, etc... Second-round picks get a hearty "good luck, go git 'em, kid" and a shot. They also get to hear their name called, which is the most a lot of them ever see again.

3- Getting drafted high guarantees more money. Higher first round picks have the higher guaranteed contracts than mid and lower first rounders. All part of the sliding scale.

Yep. Slotted salaries under the CBA.

4- Incredibly high picks get the endorsements. NBA rookie deals are not where the real money's at. A $5 mil-per-season Nike/Adidas contract is pretty much guaranteed for the players that go 1-2, however. A flashy guard like WW might get that type of money so long as he goes in the top 5.

This varies a great deal and is really hard to rely on. For most rookies, their salary is what they make. Very, very few rookies get national endorsement deals. (Durant with EA Sports, Adidas; Oden with AARP, etc...) But, many of them wind up getting lower-paying, regional/local deals... For example, if Chris Paul did an ad for Pat O'Brien's or something... but, compared to their contract money, those deals are almost nothing...)

5- You only get drafted once (I know there are ways out of this, but for the most part, only once). Higher draft picks are more important to a team than lower draft picks and have a better chance of making a roster by default. No matter where you go, there is no do-over, your basketball card will always label you as the "undrafted," or the "second round, pick 60" you were that night you waited in the green room with misinformation.

[b]This holds true, even with a highly-drafted player going from one team to another. Two of the biggest draft blunders in recent history, Nikoloz Tskitishvili and Darko Milicic, are on their 5th and 3rd NBA teams, respectively, despite no discernible NBA-level skills, primarily because they were the 5th and 2nd overall picks, respectively. It's sad, but when pride and ego take over, every GM or coach (or both) thinks that they can be the "mastermind" that salvages an early pick / potential bust's career. Usually, nobody can.

Blake Griffin waiting a year makes him go from a guaranteed first rounder to a guaranteed lottery pick. Goooo, Blake! :D

What he said.

the_ouskull

Eielson
6/28/2008, 08:16 PM
I'm gonna agree with bri on this. The Mavericks have a better chance with a 30 win season to win the draft lottery than a winless Sonics team even if they ARE in OKC.

Man, I always thought that the team with the worst record was usually getting the top pick or at least right up there. I guess I wasn't right about that.

2007-
First Pick: Portland, tied for sixth worst record
Worst Record: 4th pick

2006-
First Pick: Toronto, 5th worst record
Worst Record: 4th pick (they got the first pick next year, though!)

2005-
First Pick: Milwaukee, 6th worst record
Worst Record: 2nd pick (13 wins?!)

2004-
First Pick: Orlando, worst record!

2003-
First Pick: Cleveland, tied for worst record!

2002-
First Pick: Houston, 5th worst record
Worst Record: 2nd/3rd

2001-
First Pick: Washington, 3rd worst record
Worst Record: 4th pick

2000-
First Pick: New Jersey, 7th worst record
Worst Record: 3rd pick

However, lets look at how got the better pick.

2000-2008
Kenyon Martin/Darius Miles
Kwame Brown/Eddy Curry
Yao Ming/Jay Williams and Mike Dunleavy, Jr.
Lebron James
Dwight Howard
Andrew Bogut/Marvin Williams
Andrea Bargnani/Tyrus Thomas
Greg Oden/Mike Conley, Jr.

The teams with the worst record haven't even done well in the draft except for the two times they got the first pick. Miles, Curry, Williams, Dunleavy Jr.? That sounds like the top list of busts this decade. It is highly unlikely that Conley will be able to come close to what Oden will do and the other two guys left are questionable. They need to do away with this lottery.

bri
6/28/2008, 08:34 PM
Why? Because sh*tty teams have sh*tty general managers? That's hardly a reason to do away with a system that discourages teams from tanking on purpose to get a higher draft pick.

Big Red Ron
6/28/2008, 11:33 PM
I just don't get it. He's a solid player but not a #1 pick in the draft.
Man you really don't know jack squat about basketball. First you mention the third round in the NBA draft and now this statement?

Big Red Ron
6/28/2008, 11:36 PM
Um, you guys do realize that the NBA has a draft lottery, so even if Seattle goes 0-82 next year they could still miss out on the #1 pick?

What am I talking about? This is Soonerfans.com. Of course you guys don't know that.Eh, yeah, we know all about that lottery thing. We got funked out of the Rose/Beasley deal because Chicago lucked out with a 1.7% chance at the #1 pick and Minnesota lucked out with getting the 3rd pick, pushing us all the way down to 4th when we had the 2nd worst record.

Big Red Ron
6/28/2008, 11:42 PM
And who says OKC fans aren't NBA-savvy?I know we aren't near as "NBA-savvy" as those expert D league Tulsans. :rolleyes:

Thank God we have you to clear things up for us Bri.

Eielson
6/29/2008, 12:35 AM
That's hardly a reason to do away with a system that discourages teams from tanking on purpose to get a higher draft pick.

You act like that system couldn't work and that the NFL doesn't use it.

That same Cleveland team that failed with picking Dajuan Wagner with the 6th pick picked Lebron James with the first pick that next season.

Orlando had the first picks in the draft in 1993 and 2004. Those two years they picked Dwight Howard and Chris Webber. Both will probably be hall of famers. The years between those two picks their first rounders were Brooks Thompson, David Vaughn, Brian Evans, Johnny Taylor, Michael Doleac, Mike Miller, Steven Hunger, Curtis Borchardt, and Reece Gaines.

bri
6/29/2008, 09:02 AM
You act like that system couldn't work and that the NFL doesn't use it.

That's right, the NFL does simply give the worst team the best pick. And what's more exciting than a Week 16 matchup between a team that's locked up their playoff spot and is starting a bunch of third-stringers and a last-place team that really doesn't mind losing all that much 'cause it means they get to pick first?

It's widely accepted that Houston intentionally tanked it in '84 to ensure they'd get the #1 pick and get to draft Hakeem. The very next year, there was a draft lottery and no one has been accused of tanking for picks since then.

And ooh, I seem to have angered the gorilla!

Eielson
6/29/2008, 10:53 AM
And what's more exciting than a Week 16 matchup between a team that's locked up their playoff spot and is starting a bunch of third-stringers and a last-place team that really doesn't mind losing all that much 'cause it means they get to pick first?

It isn't like NBA teams are trying that hard when they have been eliminated from the playoffs. They still have incentive to lose. NBA teams haven't been accused very often for losing games on purpose but NFL teams haven't either. Yeah, NFL teams don't try very hard to win but neither do NBA teams.

bri
6/29/2008, 10:55 AM
Um, yeah. They haven't been accused very often of losing on purpose because there's a system that makes it pointless.

You should seriously stop talking now. Go stare at something shiny or something.

Eielson
6/29/2008, 10:59 AM
Um, yeah. They haven't been accused very often of losing on purpose because there's a system that makes it pointless.

Pointless? The worse record you have the more likely you are to get a higher pick.

Hella Sideburns
6/29/2008, 01:01 PM
That's right, the NFL does simply give the worst team the best pick. And what's more exciting than a Week 16 matchup between a team that's locked up their playoff spot and is starting a bunch of third-stringers and a last-place team that really doesn't mind losing all that much 'cause it means they get to pick first?

It's widely accepted that Houston intentionally tanked it in '84 to ensure they'd get the #1 pick and get to draft Hakeem. The very next year, there was a draft lottery and no one has been accused of tanking for picks since then.

And ooh, I seem to have angered the gorilla!

actually, there was a little bit of a stink about cleveland tanking to get lebron, but no one made to much of a deal about it because, well, it was cleveland and there were a lot of teams that would have gladly tanked for him.

Frozen Sooner
6/29/2008, 01:34 PM
That's right, the NFL does simply give the worst team the best pick. And what's more exciting than a Week 16 matchup between a team that's locked up their playoff spot and is starting a bunch of third-stringers and a last-place team that really doesn't mind losing all that much 'cause it means they get to pick first?

It's widely accepted that Houston intentionally tanked it in '84 to ensure they'd get the #1 pick and get to draft Hakeem. The very next year, there was a draft lottery and no one has been accused of tanking for picks since then.

And ooh, I seem to have angered the gorilla!

Minor point (though I think the lottery system is best to discourage tanking) but plenty of people accused the Celtics of tanking last year.

the_ouskull
6/30/2008, 12:05 PM
Teams, especially in the NBA, get accused of tanking because they DO tank. In the NFL, draft picks are more about needs because there are more cogs to each team's machine, and, therefore, more players to fill those cogs. You can have AD at tailback, but, if I'm one of your linemen, he's only rushing for 120-130 ypg. :D When Hutchinson blocks for him... records are set, books are written, and movies are... sorry, I was channeling my inner Sch... never mind what I was doing.

In the NFL, it's rarely the case, but, in the NBA, one player, the RIGHT player, CAN make all the difference for a team. David Robinson. Tim Duncan. Lebron James. etc, etc, etc... winning the lottery can be an immediate turnaround for a team.

Anyway, I'm a big fan of the lottery system as well - for the NBA. But, there's a reason that some teams are always in the lottery and other teams are not. The teams that are always in the lottery (Clippers, Nets, Kings, Cavs...) are usually there because of their owners, GM's, coaches, and the players that they select. Absolutely some tanking goes on in the NBA. I don't think that Paul Pierce, who got more severely injured in Game 1 of this year's NBA Finals than he did during his extended stay on the shelf last year, would disagree...

the_ouskull

Animal Mother
6/30/2008, 03:01 PM
There is certainly much "given" going on between posters today.

the_ouskull
6/30/2008, 09:45 PM
How did I miss this...?


The very next year, there was a draft lottery and no one has been accused of tanking for picks since then.
Wait, what?

In the 1996-97 season, the Celtics tanked their way to one of the worst records in the league; with a 36% chance of landing the number one overall pick, and, hence, Tim Duncan. They tanked like tanking has never been done before. When Antoine Walker as a rookie is your best player, then yes, you were gunning for Duncan. (Who can blame them...?)

In 2006-07, it seemed like every team that wasn't in the running to win their division was tanking. (If you like ESPN.com's Bill Simmons, he's got some great articles on NBA tanking... if you don't, you should give him a whirl.)

Here's another good article on it...

http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2007/04/why-does-tanking-occur-in-nba-but.html

However, Eielson, I wanted to bring something else up...


Miles, Curry, Williams, Dunleavy Jr.? That sounds like the top list of busts this decade.
Miles? Yes. No skills whatsoever. Just athleticism. Curry? No defensive skills whatsoever, and no desire to learn them, or at least condition himself to the point where he won't have to work as hard all-around. He's basically a human waste. Williams? Well, he was drafted based SOLELY on potential. (He played one pretty good year at UNC) He got to the NBA, and played the first few years of his career out-of-position, on a team that sucked AND had a losing attitude. Not the best place for a young player who probably should have waited a year... he put up 15/6/2 this season, and was a good defensive player, for a team that took the eventual champs to the wire. Let's give him a couple more years before we "bust" him. And Dunleavy Jr.? Well, coming off of an injury, he came back to play more minutes per game, set career shooting percentage highs in FG% at 47.6, 3pt% at an amazing 42.4, and FT% at 83.4%. 19ppg, 5.2 rpg, 3.5 apg, and only 2.3 TO's per, but, since he gets a steal a game, that helps even more. He's not a bust. He's just now coming into his own. (Indiana was playing him at the 2, which is pretty much dumb. With him and Granger both playing the 3/4, depending on the lineup, and lil Dun sometimes playing the 2 (but not defensively if they can help it) then he's becoming a borderline All-Star, or at least a solid 2nd option guy. NOT a bust.

the_ouskull

birddog
7/1/2008, 01:12 PM
salary for mike dunleavy jr.= $8mil. a year
salary for troy murphy= $9.2 mil. a year.

:eek: i had no idea.

the_ouskull
7/1/2008, 01:44 PM
Scary, eh? You should check out some of the older deals - the ones that allowed deals like Larry Johnson's last deal, and Garnett's last deal, to happen. Like Jon Koncak's deal with the Hawks.

the_ouskull

birddog
7/1/2008, 06:29 PM
koncak averaged 3.5 points a game in '92. i'd pay him 6 mil a season just to stare at his mullet.

the_ouskull
7/1/2008, 07:13 PM
I think you're thinking of Dewayne Schnitizus (sp?) or someone... although I'm sure, now that I think about it, that Koncak was rocking the mullet as well.

the_ouskull

birddog
7/1/2008, 09:23 PM
it was league policy in the late '80's to early '90's to sport a mullet. it probably should have been named the schrempf.

the_ouskull
7/1/2008, 11:18 PM
I think that's the real reason that, for so long, there were no really good white players in the league. Black guys had style, between MJ and the Fab Five, they ushered in styles and fashions (bald head, baggy shorts, black socks, attitude with a smile, etc...) that crossed over almost immediately into mainstream culture. The white players in the NBA in/around that time were generally a) farm boys who had no sense of fashion; or was at least 4 years behind it, and b) international players, who, even in the late 90's, were dressing like Motley Crue roadies; complete with the requisite hairdo's.

(Shudder...)

So, talented young white athletes saw this, and living in fear that, if they played basketball they might have to wear their hair that way, or talk that way in interviews; these athletes were, instead, pushed into playing football, or baseball; even hockey in the northern states.

It was a fear well-justified...

http://www.jmfcsports.8m.com/dwayne.jpg

If it weren't for my predilection with skateboarding and metal instead of basketball until I hit about sixteen, I would have been another victim.

the_ouskull

Blue
7/1/2008, 11:50 PM
How long are you going to have that sig quote by GDC, Skull? He's been gone since 07' right?

Not trying to start anything, just asking.

Hella Sideburns
7/2/2008, 12:51 AM
salary for mike dunleavy jr.= $8mil. a year
salary for troy murphy= $9.2 mil. a year.

:eek: i had no idea.

I think Stephon Marbury is going to make over $21 million this upcoming season.

the_ouskull
7/2/2008, 02:55 PM
I don't know. I liked him. Sure, he was an *sshole to some people on here, but so am I. An internet "society" like our happy (albeit dysfunctional) family here, is going to have ups and downs. It's going to have some people that try really hard to make everybody like them, and it's going to have some people that try really hard to make everybody hate them. I like to think that I don't try too hard to do anything other than talk passionately about OU sports, etc... If that makes me a bad guy, I'm a bad guy with a clear conscience. Lol. I just feel that some people (posters) are much, much less informed than others, and it's my duty (if we shift from the family metaphor to a town metaphor, I could even call it my civil duty) to point that out to them in great detail, at great length.

Heh. He said "great length."

So, I'm not sure. I'll probably ditch the Bush quote before I ditch the GDC one. At least GDC was insightful. :D

the_ouskull

Hella Sideburns
7/2/2008, 03:02 PM
I liked GDC just because of his proximity to Tahlequah

Blue
7/2/2008, 09:42 PM
I liked him b/c, like skull said, he told it like it was.

NormanPride
7/3/2008, 11:17 AM
I know we aren't near as "NBA-savvy" as those expert D league Tulsans. :rolleyes:

Thank God we have you to clear things up for us Bri.

Never failing to take a cheap shot at T-town, huh Ron?

(this is badger, who is too lazy on vacation to sign NP out)

The NBA once considered going to a single round in the draft, but there was also a time when there was double digit rounds. I believe Carl Lewis, the track star Olympic gold medalist, I think, was once taken in the 10th round by the Bulls.

Before you go all "OKC=NBA, beyonces!" on us, I will remind the board once again that Tulsa is the only Oklahoma town guaranteed to have an NBA game next season (look it up! It's true! It's true!) and that the Sonics/whatever they wanna call them can still end up staying in Seattle if Mr. Starbucks Howard Schultz (Shultz? I've seen both ways) wins his lawsuit.

But, as this is a BLAKE GRIFFIN board, I don't think it's necessary to have any Oklahoma town angst or rivalry here. Let's just yell NORMAN>stillwater and leave it at that :D

Big Red Ron
7/3/2008, 12:30 PM
Never failing to take a cheap shot at T-town, huh Ron?

(this is badger, who is too lazy on vacation to sign NP out)

The NBA once considered going to a single round in the draft, but there was also a time when there was double digit rounds. I believe Carl Lewis, the track star Olympic gold medalist, I think, was once taken in the 10th round by the Bulls.

Before you go all "OKC=NBA, beyonces!" on us, I will remind the board once again that Tulsa is the only Oklahoma town guaranteed to have an NBA game next season (look it up! It's true! It's true!) and that the Sonics/whatever they wanna call them can still end up staying in Seattle if Mr. Starbucks Howard Schultz (Shultz? I've seen both ways) wins his lawsuit.

But, as this is a BLAKE GRIFFIN board, I don't think it's necessary to have any Oklahoma town angst or rivalry here. Let's just yell NORMAN>stillwater and leave it at that :D
NBA = OKC Guaranteed!!!:D

OklahomaTuba
4/7/2009, 01:37 PM
Looks about right to me...

RacerX
4/7/2009, 01:43 PM
Great bump.

nighttrain12
4/7/2009, 01:53 PM
Great bump.


Unless he doesn't go pro and then someone will have to bump this 12 months from now.

badger
4/7/2009, 01:53 PM
This thread was fun. Hooray for recycling threads :D