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Collier11
6/26/2008, 09:55 AM
I am not including guys like Griffey cus while I love him, he isnt that good anymore. Im talking about at their peak currently with several years to consistency...


1: Pujols- Yes im a Cards fan but this guy has a Gold Glove, MVP, World Series Title, and has performed in the playoffs and Arod hasnt touched those last two

2: Arod- Going down as Top 10-20 player of all time by the time he retires

3: Mariano Rivera- Say what you want about him being a closer, he is the best ever and the best postseason pitcher EVAR!! 8 seasons with an ERA under 2.00

4: Manny- Best pure hitter in game?

5: Chipper- 1st Ballot HOF, still cranking after all these years

6: Berkman- This guy is a hoss and keeps getting better

7: Peavy- 81-55 and he is only 27, already has 1 Cy Young and a career ERA of 3.28

8: Beckett- 84 wins at the age of 28, World Series MVP, ALCS MVP, 2 titles, Great Big game pitcher

9: Chase Utley- This guy is becoming a Superstar

10: Johan Santana- 2 Cy youngs, Career ERA of 3.20, and twice as many wins as losses while only 29 yrs old, 100-50 in career


Im sure I left someone out but lets see what you fellas think?

BillyBall
6/26/2008, 10:19 AM
I think that Brandon Webb may need to be on that list. Pretty good though.

GrapevineSooner
6/26/2008, 10:30 AM
Pedro Martinez is also a notable omission as well.

Still, your list is strong, Collier.

Scott D
6/26/2008, 11:13 AM
a little early for Utley I think, one could easily put Vlad on that list.

illinisooner
6/26/2008, 11:19 AM
I think Rivera is a little high; I'd probably add Reyes to the list too.

JohnnyMack
6/26/2008, 11:29 AM
a little early for Utley I think, one could easily put Vlad on that list.

Vlad is the guy I thought you were missing before I scrolled down and saw this post.

Collier11
6/26/2008, 11:56 AM
I completely omitted him due to him having a bad yr this yr but you are right, he should be there

tommieharris91
6/26/2008, 12:32 PM
Your list is weak because you use saves and wins as metrics for pitchers. And there is plenty of debate as to whether Chipper Jones is an HOFer or not (I personally think he is).

Although he is having a good season, Rivera is getting pretty old these days. I'd replace him with Vlad.

Collier11
6/26/2008, 01:07 PM
Your list is weak because you use saves and wins as metrics for pitchers. And there is plenty of debate as to whether Chipper Jones is an HOFer or not (I personally think he is).

Although he is having a good season, Rivera is getting pretty old these days. I'd replace him with Vlad.

your argument is weak, I used saves, wins, era, cy youngs, and playoff performance. Rivera is the greatest closer of all time and has an era of under 1 this year. Chipper is a 1st ballot HOFer...try again

Collier11
6/26/2008, 01:09 PM
in addition to that, show me 3 pitchers more dominant than Johan, Peavy, and Beckett these days?

tommieharris91
6/26/2008, 04:01 PM
your argument is weak, I used saves, wins, era, cy youngs, and playoff performance. Rivera is the greatest closer of all time and has an era of under 1 this year. Chipper is a 1st ballot HOFer...try again

Rivera is still a reliever. He might be the best ever. He might be the best in te postseason ever, but he is still a reliever. And he is still getting old. And using wins and saves and ERAs for relievers is such an old, inefficient way of judging how good pitchers are.

As for Chipper, some of the metrics say he isn't even an HOFer, others say he's a first balloter. I think his career has been good enough to put him in, especially if he keeps up what he is doing this season.



in addition to that, show me 3 pitchers more dominant than Johan, Peavy, and Beckett these days?

This season? Volquez, Webb, Haren, Lee, Lincecum, Marcum, Dempster, Danks, and Zambrano have all posted a better ERA+ so far this season than your three.

Ohh, I forgot Saunders, Hudson, and Halladay.

tulsaoilerfan
6/26/2008, 10:35 PM
Pedro Martinez is also a notable omission as well.

Still, your list is strong, Collier.

Pedro 5 years ago yes; now, no; he's been too brittle the last 2-3 years to be considered one of the top 10 in the game

GrapevineSooner
6/26/2008, 11:00 PM
Upon further review, Oilerfan might be right.

And I think Vlad deserves a spot in here somewhere.

Collier11
6/26/2008, 11:23 PM
Rivera is still a reliever. He might be the best ever. He might be the best in te postseason ever, but he is still a reliever. And he is still getting old. And using wins and saves and ERAs for relievers is such an old, inefficient way of judging how good pitchers are.

He is a first ballot HOFer with a sub 1 ERA at his age, cant argue with that

As for Chipper, some of the metrics say he isn't even an HOFer, others say he's a first balloter. I think his career has been good enough to put him in, especially if he keeps up what he is doing this season.




This season? Volquez, Webb, Haren, Lee, Lincecum, Marcum, Dempster, Danks, and Zambrano have all posted a better ERA+ so far this season than your three.

Ohh, I forgot Saunders, Hudson, and Halladay.

Im not talking about this season, it is people who are dominating now but have an established career as I said earlier. But as for your list, Volquez has less than one year, Webbs ERA hasnt been that great this year, Haren only has 1 good yr as a starter, Lincecum has 1 really good year under his belt, Marcum(really), Dempster(really), Danks(really), Zambrano could have an argument.

The point is that the argument was for established ball players who are at the top of their game, not who is the best this year

Blue
6/26/2008, 11:59 PM
Chipper has a better switch hitting avg than Pete freakin Rose. Top 3 switch hitter of all time.

I like Rafael Soriano. He'll be a HOFer before he's done.

Rising stars- Jose Reyes, Marlins shortstop is awesome, what's his name? Hanley Ramirez! Many players with the right teams would put up crazy numbers.

JLEW1818
6/27/2008, 12:12 AM
1 and 2 are poo and arod

Scott D
6/27/2008, 10:20 AM
actually TH has a point about Roy Halliday.

BillyBall
6/27/2008, 11:05 AM
Chipper has a better switch hitting avg than Pete freakin Rose. Top 3 switch hitter of all time.

I like Rafael Soriano. He'll be a HOFer before he's done.

Rising stars- Jose Reyes, Marlins shortstop is awesome, what's his name? Hanley Ramirez! Many players with the right teams would put up crazy numbers.

Hanley Ramirez is awesome, if that guy played in Boston he would be a superstar. He plays in Florida so not even people in Miami would recognize him if he were walking down the street.

Collier11
6/27/2008, 12:50 PM
actually TH has a point about Roy Halliday.

honestly he was the last guy I took out of the list

Collier11
6/27/2008, 12:50 PM
Hanley Ramirez is awesome, if that guy played in Boston he would be a superstar. He plays in Florida so not even people in Miami would recognize him if he were walking down the street.

The guy has had one pretty good half of a year so far, and one pretty good rookie year, I dont consider that established yet

BillyBall
6/27/2008, 01:19 PM
The guy has had one pretty good half of a year so far, and one pretty good rookie year, I dont consider that established yet

I'm not saying he should be on your list, Im pointing out that the fans of the Marlins suck and if he played in NY or Boston the media would be all over his nuts.

Sorry to digress...

JLEW1818
6/27/2008, 01:27 PM
[QUOTE=tommieharris91;2325479]Rivera is still a reliever. He might be the best ever. He might be the best in te postseason ever, but he is still a reliever. And he is still getting old. And using wins and saves and ERAs for relievers is such an old, inefficient way of judging how good pitchers are.
your three.


How else can you judge a reliever then? If its not for wins, saves, and ERA ?

Collier11
6/27/2008, 01:42 PM
I'm not saying he should be on your list, Im pointing out that the fans of the Marlins suck and if he played in NY or Boston the media would be all over his nuts.

Sorry to digress...

Oh dont get me wrong, I think the kid is going to be something else!

Scott D
6/27/2008, 02:07 PM
[QUOTE=tommieharris91;2325479]Rivera is still a reliever. He might be the best ever. He might be the best in te postseason ever, but he is still a reliever. And he is still getting old. And using wins and saves and ERAs for relievers is such an old, inefficient way of judging how good pitchers are.
your three.


How else can you judge a reliever then? If its not for wins, saves, and ERA ?

a reliever is just a starter that has no endurance. ;)

JLEW1818
6/27/2008, 02:14 PM
John Smoltz ? pretty good at both. just saying

Collier11
6/27/2008, 02:40 PM
[QUOTE=jlew1818;2326200]

a reliever is just a starter that has no endurance. ;)

kind of like a pron star that cant keep it up?

GrapevineSooner
6/27/2008, 04:58 PM
If you divided up pron stars between relievers and starters... ;)

tommieharris91
6/27/2008, 10:26 PM
How else can you judge a reliever then? If its not for wins, saves, and ERA ?

The two best metrics for reliever effectiveness are WHIP [(walks+hits)/IP] and OBPagainst. This is because win-loss record for pitcher are the worst way of judging any pitcher's effectiveness, saves are about as good, and relievers don't pitch enough for ERA to be a good metric.

BillyBall
6/27/2008, 10:58 PM
[QUOTE=jlew1818;2326200]

The two best metrics for reliever effectiveness are WHIP [(walks+hits)/IP] and OBPagainst. This is because win-loss record for pitcher are the worst way of judging any pitcher's effectiveness, saves are about as good, and relievers don't pitch enough for ERA to be a good metric.


Can't agree more