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Frozen Sooner
6/25/2008, 05:05 PM
Exxon Valdez damages cut to $507.5 million

By ERIKA BOLSTAD / Anchorage Daily News

Published: June 25th, 2008 08:58 AM
Last Modified: June 25th, 2008 11:34 AM

WASHINGTON -- In a victory for corporations seeking to limit big-dollar punitive damages awards, the U.S. Supreme Court today cut the $2.5 billion punitive damages award in the Exxon Valdez case.

The court reduced the award to $507.5 million, dashing the hopes of more than 32,000 fishermen and Alaska Natives who've been waiting for nearly 20 years to hear whether Exxon Mobil Corp. must pay billions in punitive damages for its role in the 1989 Exxon Valdez oil spill.

The original multibillion-dollar punitive damages had been awarded as punishment for Exxon's role in spilling 11 million gallons of oil into the pristine fishing waters of Alaska's Prince William Sound.

Five justices signed the majority opinion; three dissented with parts of it. The court held that in maritime cases, punitive damages should be no more than the compensatory damages. That one-to-one ratio, a new legal standard, applies only to punitive damages in maritime law.

"The punitive damages award against Exxon was excessive as a matter of maritime common law," Justice David Souter wrote in the majority opinion. "In the circumstances of this case, the award should be limited to an amount equal to compensatory damages."

That left the lawyers for the plaintiffs sputtering.

"I prefer to think of it as five of the justices on the Supreme Court going out of their way to help big business," said Brian O'Neill, one of the main attorneys for the plaintiffs. "This is a huge favor for big business, that's what it is. They don't feel punished at all by this. It isn't even a mosquito bite. They're laughing."

Exxon chairman and CEO Rex Tillerson issued a short statement saying that the company continues to regret the accident, but he did not specifically address the Supreme Court decision.

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"We know this has been a very difficult time for everyone involved," Tillerson said. "We have worked hard over many years to address the impacts of the spill and to prevent such accidents from happening in our company again," he said.

The case will go back to the U.S. District Court in Anchorage in the next several weeks. With interest, the total award adds up to close to $1 billion. Much of that money goes to commercial fishing interests, and about 20 percent goes to lawyer fees.

Plaintiffs can expect to begin getting money within 90 to 120 days, said David Oesting, the Anchorage attorney who has been working on the case for two decades. But the court's decision means that the awards will be about one-fifth of what many people were expecting to see.

"They took a hell of a blow," Oesting said of the fishermen waiting since 1994 for their payout. "This is not anywhere near enough punishment."

Exxon based its appeal on an 1818 court decision that holds that ship owners aren't liable for punitive damages for the actions of their agents at sea unless they're complicit in their behavior. The court was divided 4-4 on that issue, so the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals decision that had determined the company was liable for punitive damages still stands. Justice Samuel Alito, who owned Exxon stock, recused himself from the case, making it difficult for the court to achieve a majority.

Business groups such as the American Petroleum Institute and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce had hoped that the Supreme Court would use the case as a way to curb large punitive damages against corporations, but most legal experts say that the scope of the decision is limited to maritime law.

Still, the court laid out a careful and deliberative case for curtailing punitive damages. The court in its decision pushed for what it called "eliminating unpredictable (excessive) punitive awards."

"In many instances a high ratio of punitive to compensatory damages is substantially greater than necessary to punish or deter," Souter wrote. "The real problem, it seems, is the stark unpredictability of punitive awards."

Today's Supreme Court decision applies specifically to punitive damages under maritime law, meaning that Exxon won on "the narrowest grounds possible," said Jonathan Adler, the director of the Center for Business Law and Regulation and the Case Western Reserve University School of Law in Cleveland.

That lessens the value of the decision for future questions of punitive damages in non-maritime cases, Adler said.

"For Exxon what matters is the check they have to write," Adler said. "Exxon got a dramatic reduction in their damages, but it was not based on some broad,sweeping principles that are going to be used in other cases."

But other legal experts say they expect it to creep into other areas of law where businesses face sizable punitive damage awards.

"We see this as a very big victory, principally because we think that the court understands our concerns," said Amar Sarwal, the chief litigation counsel for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.

The 32,677 plaintiffs in the case have been waiting for their compensation since 1994, when an Anchorage jury returned a $5 billion punitive-damages award against Exxon Mobil. The company has been appealing the verdict since then. In 2006, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals cut the award to $2.5 billion. Exxon appealed that decision to the Supreme Court, which heard oral arguments in the case Feb. 27.

Michael Doyle contributed to this article.

In other words, the Court held that while Exxon WAS negligent and WAS liable for destroying one of the world's great fisheries, it's just too mean to make them pay more in punitive damages than compensatory-even though they knowingly put a drunk at the helm of a ship which would be navigating tricky waters.

lefty
6/25/2008, 05:16 PM
As Gomer Pyle would say, "Surprise, Surprise."

Okla-homey
6/25/2008, 05:17 PM
eh, you win some, you lose some.;)

punies are kinda oughtta control in many jurisdictions, and we all pay more for stuff because of it.

OTOH, you can't get a ginormous company's attention unless you really schwack 'em.

Otehr than that, This opinion was purportedly an interpretation of the common law of admiralty. That's some esoteric stuff right there brutha.

Cam
6/25/2008, 05:21 PM
Exxon based its appeal on an 1818 court decision that holds that ship owners aren't liable for punitive damages for the actions of their agents at sea unless they're complicit in their behavior.

Seriously, a 190 year old precedent?

NormanPride
6/25/2008, 05:24 PM
1818? Really?

soonerscuba
6/25/2008, 05:26 PM
Shocking. Exxon uses the government to push it's favor. That company needs to take the 1.5 billion dollars they just saved and throw it to a PR firm, they are dangerously close to going to being a pariah of a company in the public mind. I would not be surprised in the slightest to see a backlash against them soon.

yermom
6/25/2008, 05:31 PM
did they give him a breathalyzer before he took off? how did they knowingly put a drunk at the helm?

how many billions of dollars did they lose from all the bad PR? they did help clean things up didn't they? i'm not sure what all that extra punitive damages money would be good for anyway. waiting around for 20 years? that's pretty ridiculous anyway in lots of ways

Frozen Sooner
6/25/2008, 05:32 PM
eh, you win some, you lose some.;)

punies are kinda oughtta control in many jurisdictions, and we all pay more for stuff because of it.

OTOH, you can't get a ginormous company's attention unless you really schwack 'em.

Otehr than that, This opinion was purportedly an interpretation of the common law of admiralty. That's some esoteric stuff right there brutha.

Yeah, I saw that they had used a precedent from 1818. Most analysis I had read stated that the precedent didn't apply, as it was generated before ship-to-shore communication was in use. The role of the captain of a large oil tanker and the role of the captain of a whaling vessel are pretty radically different these days, you know?

Ike
6/25/2008, 05:32 PM
Seems rather specifically arbitrary to me...

Harry Beanbag
6/25/2008, 06:01 PM
The real travesty is it took 19 years to dispense with this case. In the end, the only winners were the stinking lawyers.

No offense Homey. ;)

StoopTroup
6/25/2008, 06:06 PM
There is a lesson to be learned here.

I think.

I'm not sure what it is...but I even think there might be more than one. :D

Okla-homey
6/25/2008, 10:05 PM
Yeah, I saw that they had used a precedent from 1818. Most analysis I had read stated that the precedent didn't apply, as it was generated before ship-to-shore communication was in use. The role of the captain of a large oil tanker and the role of the captain of a whaling vessel are pretty radically different these days, you know?

Perhaps interestly, here on Oklahoma, unless human life is deliberately and maliciously put in danger by the defendant's actions, proven to a beyond reasonable doubt standard to the judge, there is a cap on punitive damages.

Short of that, if the defendant was merely reckless, like that skipper, punies are capped at the greater of $100K or equal to the actual damages.

TheHumanAlphabet
6/26/2008, 04:24 AM
I figured this would come to admiralty law and the fact that this occurred at sea. US Laws don't hold in this case, so any precedent will be extremely limited. You know this case was a permanent employment case, wouldn't be surprised if there are some retirements shortly...

Just don't dump shi'ite on the ground in the US - you'll be screwed then.

Everybody is up in arm with the Exxon Valdez, how come people aren't fuming at BP and there incompetence and killing of 15 people in an explosion in Texas City? They are as culpable and Mike Rick says Exxon was and at least Exxon didn't kill anyone in this case.

olevetonahill
6/26/2008, 04:42 AM
How in the Hell did that Decision SCREW 1000s Of Small Business folks ?
After 20 years They've already over come all the Bad .

olevetonahill
6/26/2008, 04:44 AM
Oh MY Bad
Wasn't the Folks who got HURT by this already Compensated for their Lose ?
So the Punitive was Just an Extra ?

olevetonahill
6/26/2008, 05:40 AM
Am I wrong ?
:pop:

Okla-homey
6/26/2008, 05:48 AM
Oh MY Bad
Wasn't the Folks who got HURT by this already Compensated for their Lose ?
So the Punitive was Just an Extra ?

Bro, punitive damages are "extra." They are in excess of the actual harm suffered by the plaintiff in the case. They are assessed in order to do basically two things, 1) punish the bad actor, and, 2) deter future such bad acts by both that particular actor, and anyone else paying attention.

That said, there are lots a pretty smart folks (both lefties and righties) who consider punitive damages in a civil lawsuit unconstitutional because they violate a persons' constitutional right not to be punished without due process of law.

Put another way, before the gubmint can punish you for a bad act, they generally charge you with what we like to call a "crime." Then, the gubmint, thru the prosecutor's office, must prove every element of that crime "beyond a reasonable doubt." That's a pretty high standard -- think 90+% likelihood he did it.

OTOH, in a civil lawsuit, like this Exxon case, the plaintiff (that's the guy doing the suing) needs only prove his case by a "preponderance of evidence" -- which is basically to a 51% likelihood the defendant did the deed complained of by the plaintiff.

olevetonahill
6/26/2008, 06:00 AM
Bro, punitive damages are "extra." They are in excess of the actual harm suffered by the plaintiff in the case. They are assessed in order to do basically two things, 1) punish the bad actor, and, 2) deter future such bad acts by both that particular actor, and anyone else paying attention.

That said, there are lots a pretty smart folks (both lefties and righties) who consider punitive damages in a civil lawsuit unconstitutional because they violate a persons' constitutional right not to be punished without due process of law.

Put another way, before the gubmint can punish you for a bad act, they generally charge you with what we like to call a "crime." Then, the gubmint, thru the prosecutor's office, must prove every element of that crime "beyond a reasonable doubt." That's a pretty high standard -- think 90+% likelihood he did it.

OTOH, in a civil lawsuit, like this Exxon case, the plaintiff (that's the guy doing the suing) needs only prove his case by a "preponderance of evidence" -- which is basically to a 51% likelihood the defendant did the deed complained of by the plaintiff.

So I am Right ?
The folks what GOT Hurt By this Bad *** Oil spill have ALREADY been reimbursed
Now They Get screwed By ONLY gettin Double ????
Boy fuk me running If I can get double !;)
I dont understan yall Legal concepts !

Okla-homey
6/26/2008, 06:03 AM
So I am Right ?
The folks what GOT Hurt By this Bad *** Oil spill have ALREADY been reimbursed
Now They Get screwed By ONLY gettin Double ????
Boy fuk me running If I can get double !;)
I dont understan yall Legal concepts !

yes. they got double. pretty sweet deal actually. They had been awarded much more. SCOTUS said no.

olevetonahill
6/26/2008, 06:07 AM
yes. they got double. pretty sweet deal actually. They had been awarded much more. SCOTUS said no.

Oh so Like MIKE said 1000s Of Small folks Got ****ed By Only getting twice what they Lost ?
I unnerstan
I think !:rolleyes: :confused:
Boy Id hate to get ****ed that bad !:rolleyes:

OUDoc
6/26/2008, 08:12 AM
So, gas prices will go up again? :rolleyes:

olevetonahill
6/26/2008, 08:16 AM
So, gas prices will go up again? :rolleyes:

Depends On who you think Got screwed . Its gonna be Either Gas Goes up Or the Price of Fish and Chips Goes up :rolleyes:

Condescending Sooner
6/26/2008, 09:48 AM
So I am Right ?
The folks what GOT Hurt By this Bad *** Oil spill have ALREADY been reimbursed
Now They Get screwed By ONLY gettin Double ????
Boy fuk me running If I can get double !;)
I dont understan yall Legal concepts !

Mike thinks corporations always screw the "little guy". It's the liberal mindset.

Frozen Sooner
6/26/2008, 10:27 AM
Mike thinks corporations always screw the "little guy". It's the liberal mindset.

Whereas Condescending Sooner follows me around attempting to get my attention.

How's it going, ankle-biter?

GrapevineSooner
6/26/2008, 10:34 AM
Don't you just love it when people try to take a single opinion and try to pigeon hole you into a liberal or conservative mindset?

Frozen Sooner
6/26/2008, 10:34 AM
Oh so Like MIKE said 1000s Of Small folks Got ****ed By Only getting twice what they Lost ?
I unnerstan
I think !:rolleyes: :confused:
Boy Id hate to get ****ed that bad !:rolleyes:

They got screwed because they redressed their grievances in court, were awarded damages, then got said damages reversed based on an absolutely flimsy argument with a legal theory as a lynchpin which was based on captains at sea being incommunicado.

Let me ask you, vet, do you think Exxon even feels a $500mm verdict? At all? Considering that it's almost two decades later and they're STILL finding oil on the beaches of Prince William Sound? Considering that it's two decades later and the fish still haven't come back?

You say that they've already gotten past the hard times? I respectfully state that you don't have any idea whether they've gotten past them or not. The Exxon Valdez destroyed the small businesses of thousands of US Citizens in such a manner that they will never come back.

yermom
6/26/2008, 10:46 AM
are they really going to notice even a couple of billion dollars?

it's hard to get that worked up about someone "only" getting 500 million dollars with interest, after Exxon has already had to pay like 500 million too, right? is that on top of what they spent to clean up already?

olevetonahill
6/26/2008, 10:48 AM
They got screwed because they redressed their grievances in court, were awarded damages, then got said damages reversed based on an absolutely flimsy argument with a legal theory as a lynchpin which was based on captains at sea being incommunicado.

Let me ask you, vet, do you think Exxon even feels a $500mm verdict? At all? Considering that it's almost two decades later and they're STILL finding oil on the beaches of Prince William Sound? Considering that it's two decades later and the fish still haven't come back?

You say that they've already gotten past the hard times? I respectfully state that you don't have any idea whether they've gotten past them or not. The Exxon Valdez destroyed the small businesses of thousands of US Citizens in such a manner that they will never come back.

Nope to what exxon would Feel
Hell they wouldnt Feel 5 00 Billion
They are *******s who are are rich, they would Cry fer 2 Minutes Maybe !
If ya aint got over it in 20 years then File a Claim fer PTSD . ;)

Hamhock
6/26/2008, 10:49 AM
The Exxon Valdez destroyed the small businesses of thousands of US Citizens in such a manner that they will never come back.

doesn't that go into the calculation of compensatory?

olevetonahill
6/26/2008, 10:51 AM
are they really going to notice even a couple of billion dollars?

it's hard to get that worked up about someone "only" getting 500 million dollars with interest, after Exxon has already had to pay like 500 million too, right? is that on top of what they spent to clean up already?

From what I understand Yes
The 500 Mil was for Damages
the Next 500 Mil was to Pay em for Lost what ever !:confused:

Frozen Sooner
6/26/2008, 10:51 AM
Divide that $500 million by 32000, and factor in the 20 years of legal fees (or the attorney's contingency) while Exxon has avoided paying.

Frozen Sooner
6/26/2008, 10:53 AM
doesn't that go into the calculation of compensatory?

That the businesses were destroyed? Sure. That Exxon's actions leading to the destruction of said businesses were irresponsible in the extreme? No.

Hamhock
6/26/2008, 11:15 AM
That the businesses were destroyed? Sure. That Exxon's actions leading to the destruction of said businesses were irresponsible in the extreme? No.

i'm just saying that if someone offered me my earning potential for life x2, I'd take the money and run.

NormanPride
6/26/2008, 11:30 AM
I thought with interest it was around 1 billion? 20% to legal fees (which is ridiculous) leaves 800 Million to 32000 businesses. That's 25k per business.

Compare that to 2.5 billion, which would be 5 billion after interest. 20% for legal fees leaves 4 billion. That's 125k per business.

olevetonahill
6/26/2008, 11:33 AM
I thought with interest it was around 1 billion? 20% to legal fees (which is ridiculous) leaves 800 Million to 32000 businesses. That's 25k per business.

Compare that to 2.5 billion, which would be 5 billion after interest. 20% for legal fees leaves 4 billion. That's 125k per business.

So the got thier Loses Covered to start with Now Get an extry 25 Large ?
:pop:

Tulsa_Fireman
6/26/2008, 11:34 AM
I spilled a quart of 10W30 on the driveway the other day. I haven't seen a lizard camped out there since.

GIVE ME SOME MONEY.

Condescending Sooner
6/26/2008, 12:57 PM
Whereas Condescending Sooner follows me around attempting to get my attention.

How's it going, ankle-biter?

You think a little too much of yourself.

How's it going Mama's boy?

yermom
6/26/2008, 01:17 PM
Mike thinks corporations always screw the "little guy". It's the liberal mindset.

that's because Mike is the 'little guy"

oh and corporations do always screw the little guy. competing businesses, their employees, etc...

Frozen Sooner
6/26/2008, 01:25 PM
You think a little too much of yourself.

How's it going Mama's boy?

And you think very little of yourself to dedicate your time to me like this.

Maybe you should get a hobby. I hear macrame is nice.

Now go shiver in ecstasy because I paid attention to you.

Fugue
6/26/2008, 01:35 PM
I'm surprised that Souter was on board with this.

Condescending Sooner
6/26/2008, 01:35 PM
I couldn't care less that some social outcast who lives on the computer pays attention to me or not. I don't even know what gave you the idea.

sooner_born_1960
6/26/2008, 01:38 PM
Both of you. Cut it out or I'll lock this thread.

Bourbon St Sooner
6/26/2008, 01:49 PM
Well, if Exxon had built the levees that broke when they weren't s'posed to and flooded my house, it looks like I could have gotten double damages. Since it was the Corps of Engineers, I'm entitled to jack ****.

Life's a bitch. Cry me a damn river.

Fugue
6/26/2008, 01:50 PM
Both of you. Cut it out or I'll lock this thread.

heh

Frozen Sooner
6/26/2008, 01:53 PM
I couldn't care less that some social outcast who lives on the computer pays attention to me or not. I don't even know what gave you the idea.

The fact that a sizeable portion of your posts are an attempt to draw me into an argument is probably what did it.

Oooooo-the dreaded "lives on the computer" card!

Fugue
6/26/2008, 01:55 PM
I'm surprised that Souter was on board with this.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d167/bushtit/smilies/rimshot.gif

sooner_born_1960
6/26/2008, 01:55 PM
I mean it.

Condescending Sooner
6/26/2008, 04:08 PM
The fact that a sizeable portion of your posts are an attempt to draw me into an argument is probably what did it.

Oooooo-the dreaded "lives on the computer" card!


I checked my posting history, and the only fairly recent post that I addressed you is one where you responded to MY post first. Don't let the truth get in your way.

Tulsa_Fireman
6/26/2008, 04:10 PM
Will someone volunteer for me to stalk them?

I would really REALLY dig that.

Sooner_Havok
6/26/2008, 04:20 PM
Will someone volunteer for me to stalk them?

I would really REALLY dig that.

Fine, but I am doubling the rate from what I charged you when you wanted me to stalk you.

Harry Beanbag
6/26/2008, 05:42 PM
And you think very little of yourself to dedicate your time to me like this.

Maybe you should get a hobby. I hear macrame is nice.

Now go shiver in ecstasy because I paid attention to you.


Mike, I think LAS stole yer password.

Frozen Sooner
6/26/2008, 06:05 PM
That's awesome that you had to check your posting history to see if you've been attempting to bait me recently.