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Pink_Floyd
6/15/2008, 05:41 PM
In The Audacity of Hope, Obama writes that he "was not raised in a religious household." He describes his mother, raised by non-religious parents, as detached from religion, yet "in many ways the most spiritually awakened person that I have ever known." He describes his Kenyan father as "raised a Muslim," but a "confirmed atheist" by the time his parents met, and his Indonesian stepfather as "a man who saw religion as not particularly useful." In the book, Obama explains how, through working with black churches as a community organizer while in his twenties, he came to understand "the power of the African-American religious tradition to spur social change."


Kenyan father, Dunham married Lolo Soetoro, and the family moved to Soetoro's home country of Indonesia in 1967, where Obama attended local schools.

All this enables him to run for President??What about Arnold?

Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Plato

Rogue
6/15/2008, 06:03 PM
BO was born in Hawaii. Therefore, a natural born American.
Just like W was born in Kennebunkport.
Arnold, not so much.

Thanks for playing.

yermom
6/15/2008, 06:07 PM
i still think that's a dumb law, it might have made sense at the time

Arnold is as American as i am at this point

Rogue
6/15/2008, 06:26 PM
What would make more sense? Having lived in the US, US terrirtories, or military bases for a certain amount of time? 10 years?

Chuck Bao
6/15/2008, 06:30 PM
There was a really, really fluff piece in AsiaWeek (before respected as an Asian version of NewsWeek, now just a Sunday newspaper edition insert) with Obama on the cover.

Their whole point is that this will be the first time that both US president candidates will have their own personal perspective on Southeast Asia.

I think it could have been a great article but the writer flubbed it.

The story could have been that while Obama spent some of his formative childhood years in Indonesia is more trade protectionist and McCain who suffered through a Vietnamese POW prison is more free trade.

I support Obama, but I have to say that staying at the Hanoi Hilton must have been a pretty rough place. I've visited there a couple years ago and they even had a sign celebrating the fact that McCain spent time there.

So, the Vietnamese are probably supporting McCain. The Indonesians are supporting Obama. Everyone else is a bit mixed here, I think, but leaning more to McCain and free trade. On the other hand, there are those who like the brown-skin dude and America being blind to that sort of thing.

Okay, that is neither here nor there.

Besides that, I love Arnold. Conan the Barbarian is one of my all time favorite movies. All I can think about with all that stupid Marvel Comic movie crap, we need more Conan movies.

badger
6/15/2008, 06:32 PM
Emphasis on the Hussein, eh? Why not just be like Ann Coulter and say B. Hussein Obama for added emphasis?

This is silly. B-iraq O-blah blah is not going to get elected. Even if he is Muslim (and I am not saying he is), he would probably be like the ones I know and talk to that cherish the opportunity to show the good side to their religion and cringe everytime a terrorist attacks and pray to God (or Allah) that it wasn't one of them who did it. Even if he did have a foreign-citizen parent, citizenship is granted to everyone born in the U.S., regardless of who the parents are and where they're from. Even if this law is to be changed (and a certain state rep from Moore, Okla. wants this to happen), there is no chance in heck that it will be enforced for those already citizens of the U.S. Even if he is black, even if he is liberally liberal, even if he's the most gifted orator of our time and has donations following as freely as his charm, he's NOT GOING TO GET ELECTED.

... unless he chooses the correct running mate. Bob Dole would have probably beaten Bill Clinton if Colin Powell agreed to be his veep.

Pink_Floyd
6/15/2008, 06:42 PM
BO was born in Hawaii. Therefore, a natural born American.
Just like W was born in Kennebunkport.
Arnold, not so much.

Thanks for playing.

Being born in Hawaii doesn't give you amercian citizenship.
when your father is of Kenyan citizen,not where your born,but who born you.


i like to play as we all do...

CHICAGO)(February 8, 2007) Chicago-based Internet journalist, broadcaster and critic Andy Martin will hold a news conference Friday, February 9th at 11:00 A.M. to announce that U. S. Senator Barack Obama is a citizen of Kenya and became a citizen of Kenya under the Independence Constitution of Kenya in 1963. Obama has never renounced his Kenyan citizenship. He is also a U. S. Citizen.

“For our ‘Obama Week’ leading up to Barry O’s announcement on Saturday that he feels qualified to lead the free world, ContrarianCommentary.com unleashed a worldwide team of constitutional law experts to delve into Kenyan law and the question of Obama’s citizenship. They were also participating in our CIA-style psychological profile of Obama that will be released Saturday in Chicago. And what we discovered was amazing, a political blockbuster,” says Executive Editor Andy Martin.

“Under the Independence Constitution of Kenya, Obama became a Kenyan citizen on December 12, 1963. He has never renounced his Kenyan citizenship. On his senate web site, Obama tap dances around his own dual nationality when discussing his father. Obama obviously knows, because his father told him, that he also held/holds Kenyan nationality.

“Once again, we find Barry O concealing fascinating information about his identity. There is nothing unusual about dual nationality. Indeed, ancient Roman Law doctrines of jus sanguini and jus soli come into play, because both Kenya and the U. S. recognize dual nationality. Once again, the issue is not ‘legality.’ The issue is the cover-up; Obama’s concealment of his own identity. From us, and most of all from himself.

“I find it amusing that Channel 2 in Chicago is (Thursday night) running a series on ‘Do we know the real Barack Obama?’ when they don’t really know, because 2’s news is produced by the same old hacks that take spoon-feeding from Obama & Co.

“Friday we will blow Obama out of the water with disclosure of his lifelong deceit and concealment. Obama’s attempts to portray his father as an ignorant ‘goat herd,’ moreover, were part of his attempts at ‘identity theft’ against his own father, designed to create an imaginary picture of Barack Sr. It is inconceivable that Obama’s father was ignorant of Kenyan law, since he served as a government official and held a Ph.D. from Harvard. And it is inconceivable that Obama Sr. never told his son that he was a Kenyan national. Why has ‘junior’ hidden this information for decades?” Martin will demand Friday.

“The American people, when deciding who to support for president, have a right to know if their ‘president’ is also a citizen of Kenya and owes dual loyalty to Kenya because he has never renounced his Kenyan citizenship.

“Further, I defy Obama or any of his flacks to defeat or deny the historical constitutional facts on which our blockbuster disclosures are based. We have nailed Barry O with his own hidden truths once again.”

Frozen Sooner
6/15/2008, 06:48 PM
Being born in Hawaii doesn't give you amercian citizenship.
when your father is of Kenyan citizen,not where your born,but who born you.


You actually couldn't be more wrong. Try reading the Constitution sometime instead of worshiping people who wipe their *** with it.

14th Amendment: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.

Hawai'i has been part of the United States since 1896 and a state since 1959.

Barack Obama was born in 1961, which was after both of these events. He is a United States citizen and has been so since birth.

Where do you come up with this bull****?

Chuck Bao
6/15/2008, 07:07 PM
Mike, given PF's newly discovered revelations, you might not be a US citizen either.

You don't have any dual citizenship that you don't know about, do you?

On that regard, I'm curious why dual citizenship would mean that one is null and void and, by definition, if that still means one has dual citizenship.

I'm going to have to think about that some more.

GottaHavePride
6/15/2008, 07:54 PM
Bob Dole would have probably beaten Bill Clinton if Colin Powell agreed to be his veep.

Bob Dole would have won if the candidate had been Elizabeth Dole and not Bob.

Pink_Floyd
6/15/2008, 08:18 PM
You actually couldn't be more wrong. Try reading the Constitution sometime instead of worshiping people who wipe their *** with it.

14th Amendment: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.

Hawai'i has been part of the United States since 1896 and a state since 1959.

Barack Obama was born in 1961, which was after both of these events. He is a United States citizen and has been so since birth.

Where do you come up with this bull****?


Emphasis on the Hussein, eh? Why not just be like Ann Coulter and say B. Hussein Obama for added emphasis?

This is silly. B-iraq O-blah blah is not going to get elected. Even if he is Muslim (and I am not saying he is), he would probably be like the ones I know and talk to that cherish the opportunity to show the good side to their religion and cringe everytime a terrorist attacks and pray to God (or Allah) that it wasn't one of them who did it. Even if he did have a foreign-citizen parent, citizenship is granted to everyone born in the U.S., regardless of who the parents are and where they're from. Even if this law is to be changed (and a certain state rep from Moore, Okla. wants this to happen), there is no chance in heck that it will be enforced for those already citizens of the U.S. Even if he is black, even if he is liberally liberal, even if he's the most gifted orator of our time and has donations following as freely as his charm, he's NOT GOING TO GET ELECTED.

... unless he chooses the correct running mate. Bob Dole would have probably beaten Bill Clinton if Colin Powell agreed to be his veep.


Emphasis on the Hussein, eh?
Actually the emphasis on II.

Mr. Rich that is wonderful news to hear.
When Barack Hussein Obama II loses his bid to become President of the
United States,his political bid to make history can still come true.
He can still run for President of Kenya with his duel citizenship.

That is history in the making,running for President of two countries.
I don't think he can have that million dollar house in Kenya,probably be
burned to the ground.Especially with all the violence over there.

I don't worship other people,I do worship the first of my ten commandments.
I'm sure people realize what they are.




Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
Plato

soonerscuba
6/15/2008, 08:26 PM
Being born in Hawaii doesn't give you amercian citizenship.
I laughed.

Pink_Floyd
6/15/2008, 08:36 PM
I laughed.



You been underwater to long,,time to come up and take a breath.

mdklatt
6/15/2008, 08:38 PM
Being born in Hawaii doesn't give you amercian citizenship.


And the dumb get dumber.

You've heard of the TV show Hawaii 5-0, right? Or maybe not because I think you're actually 12 years old. Or maybe a slow 15-year-old. Anyway, the "5-0" is for 50, because Hawaii was the 50th state. Of the United States.

Pink_Floyd
6/15/2008, 09:05 PM
And the dumb get dumber.

You've heard of the TV show Hawaii 5-0, right? Or maybe not because I think you're actually 12 years old. Or maybe a slow 15-year-old. Anyway, the "5-0" is for 50, because Hawaii was the 50th state. Of the United States.

if a german couple on vacation in hawaii,they have a baby,auto amercian
citizenship?what b/s is that.The father has all the rights to the child as kenyan
as in obamas case,,,or this duel crap you have here.

sounds like a dog chasing its own tail.
BTW-how many presidents have this so called duel citizenship??

Duel citizenship this what you get,,,,

mdklatt
6/15/2008, 09:17 PM
if a german couple on vacation in hawaii,they have a baby,auto amercian
citizenship?

Yes. Even though most Americans can't find Iraq on a map, I thought the past several years of demagoguery against illegal aliens meant that everybody knew that you get automatic citizenship if you're born here.

Okla-homey
6/15/2008, 09:24 PM
If you are born in the United States, you are an American citizen.

Its been that way since 1868 (XIV Amendment). It doesn't matter where your parents hail from, or even whether they are here legally or not...much to the chagrin of the the anti-messican lobby. They call our fellow American citizens "anchor babies."

Thus, if BHO was indeed born in Hawaii in 1963, he's as American as anybody else.

Now, not to go all tinfoil hat-ty or anything, but there is a rumor making its way around the blogosphere that BHO is unable to produce a birth certificate. Apparently ascribed to the fact only three years after statehood, Hawaii had not established a "vital statistics" bureacracy and thus some people fell through the cracks.

Personally, I poo-poo that because evidently the man has a US passport and you can't get those based on a note from your mother saying you were born here. But its out there nevertheless.

soonerscuba
6/15/2008, 09:28 PM
How dare a natural born American claim he is entitled to all of the rights granted in the US Consitution.

PF, it's totally cool and understandable if you dislike Obama's politics. However, claiming he doesn't have rights because of where his father is from is perhaps the single most un-American thought I can think.

soonerscuba
6/15/2008, 09:31 PM
Now, not to go all tinfoil hat-ty or anything, but there is a rumor making its way around the blogosphere that BHO is unable to produce a birth certificate. Apparently ascribed to the fact only three years after statehood, Hawaii had not established a "vital statistics" bureacracy and thus some people fell through the cracks.

You mean the one readily available on his website?

http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/birthcert

Frozen Sooner
6/15/2008, 09:32 PM
Well, to be fair to Homey, he DID say he didn't believe the rumor.

soonerscuba
6/15/2008, 09:35 PM
Homey is a sharp d00d, and I enjoy reading his posts, but I think that I would do the same if someone claimed that McCain didn't have one either, which is probably more likely in that papyrus gets pretty brittle.

Frozen Sooner
6/15/2008, 09:36 PM
Nah. Clay tablets were in style back then. They'd survive. ;)

badger
6/15/2008, 11:00 PM
I find it amusing that you are suggesting far fetched ideas... like Obama being loyal to Kenya or running for president in Kenya.

I don't think it has ever occurred in the history of the U.S. - a person of dual citizenship becoming president. However, if a Catholic president isn't going to get bullied by the bully pulpit of the pope, then why would a Kenyan/American care about the interests of the country where his birth father - the dude that abandoned his mother after knocking her up in a passionate Hawaii moment - at all?

Oh, and McCain was born on a U.S. Naval base in the Panama canal. NOW who's the non-American born presidential candidate :D:D:D

I'm joking, I just thought I'd bring that up to rattle your cage a little. Let's just use this to settle this debate once and for all. (http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2008/06/is_barack_obama_a_us_citizen_y.html)


Except for the children of diplomats, every child born in the U.S. is a natural-born U.S. citizen, period.

There's your answer. Barack? Citizen. McCain? Citizen. Let's cut the crap and debate real issues, plzkthx

Frozen Sooner
6/15/2008, 11:08 PM
I find it amusing that you are suggesting far fetched ideas... like Obama being loyal to Kenya or running for president in Kenya.

I don't think it has ever occurred in the history of the U.S. - a person of dual citizenship becoming president. However, if a Catholic president isn't going to get bullied by the bully pulpit of the pope, then why would a Kenyan/American care about the interests of the country where his birth father - the dude that abandoned his mother after knocking her up in a passionate Hawaii moment - at all?

Oh, and McCain was born on a U.S. Naval base in the Panama canal. NOW who's the non-American born presidential candidate :D:D:D

I'm joking, I just thought I'd bring that up to rattle your cage a little. Let's just use this to settle this debate once and for all. (http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2008/06/is_barack_obama_a_us_citizen_y.html)



There's your answer. Barack? Citizen. McCain? Citizen. Let's cut the crap and debate real issues, plzkthx

While I disagree with your assertion that Obama won't win in November and disagree with your politics, I applaud your ability to reason.

SoonerKnight
6/15/2008, 11:23 PM
It is thought the origin of the natural-born citizen clause can be traced to a July 25, 1787, letter from John Jay to George Washington, presiding officer of the Constitutional Convention. John Jay wrote: "Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen." There was no debate, and this qualification for the office of the Presidency was introduced by the drafting Committee of Eleven, and then adopted without discussion by the Constitutional Convention.

John McCain, who ran for the Republican party nomination in 2000 and is the presumptive Republican nominee in 2008, was born at the U.S. military base Coco Solo in the Panama Canal Zone to U.S. parents.[5]

This was addressed by the U.S. Supreme Court in the Dred Scott case as a form of naturalization.[8] The Dred Scott case, however, was overturned by the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868. The Fourteenth Amendment mentions two types of citizenship: citizenship by birth and citizenship by law (naturalized citizens): "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen

tommieharris91
6/16/2008, 01:28 AM
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
Plato

I get the feeling you have no clue how to live by this quote.

CORNholio
6/16/2008, 01:35 AM
Maybe I am narrow minded but I cannot ever see myself voting for anything but a christian or atleast christian raised politician. Even if they are corrupt to the gills at least I know that they have the same base values that I do.

Blue
6/16/2008, 02:13 AM
They're all the same these days. Pandering to whomever will listen. I'm leaning towards Barr. I could care less on their religious views. In their positions it would seem impossible to maintain your every conviction. Bush just got hammered by the SCOTUS when he thought he had the majority.

Render to Ceasar what is Ceasars and to God what is Gods. I'll refrain from going any further on my religious views since I've blown my witness to pieces due to some drunken postings.

Rogue
6/16/2008, 05:07 AM
Maybe I am narrow minded but I cannot ever see myself voting for anything but a christian or atleast christian raised politician. Even if they are corrupt to the gills at least I know that they have the same base values that I do.

I've wondered about this a long while. I think the vast majority of Americans, myself excluded, agree with you here and would rather vote for a corrupt Christian than an honest Atheist. It's why the suggestion that BO is a Muslim has legs, because folk automatically assume that it's bad to be something other than what they are. "Hell, if he's a Muslim he must be a terr'ist too."

To me values go way beyond, and are usually entirely separate from, how or if you worship one God or another.

Blue
6/16/2008, 05:45 AM
nm.

badger
6/16/2008, 08:18 AM
While I disagree with your assertion that Obama won't win in November and disagree with your politics, I applaud your ability to reason.

How bout this for reasoning: If there was possibly anything that would lead you to believe that Obama would be a Muslim, or not a citizen, or anything else that would prevent him from being president, then don't you think we would have already heard it from the Bill and Hillary Clinton Spin Doctor machine and not an Internet message board source named after a Brit band?

Ooo, tricky reasoning, I know, but the Clintons are by far the dirtiest players of the political game. Right now, they are writing up their list of sworn enemies that they'll never do political favors for again - the ones they feel betrayed them for the Obama camp and such - and they are going to stick with the veep nomination tactics for now.

If there was truly any validity this this argument, we would have heard about it more by now. Hillary Clinton would have screamed every day about it since losing any of her super delegates.

Collier11
6/16/2008, 08:43 AM
Emphasis on the Hussein, eh? Why not just be like Ann Coulter and say B. Hussein Obama for added emphasis?

This is silly. B-iraq O-blah blah is not going to get elected. Even if he is Muslim (and I am not saying he is), he would probably be like the ones I know and talk to that cherish the opportunity to show the good side to their religion and cringe everytime a terrorist attacks and pray to God (or Allah) that it wasn't one of them who did it. Even if he did have a foreign-citizen parent, citizenship is granted to everyone born in the U.S., regardless of who the parents are and where they're from. Even if this law is to be changed (and a certain state rep from Moore, Okla. wants this to happen), there is no chance in heck that it will be enforced for those already citizens of the U.S. Even if he is black, even if he is liberally liberal, even if he's the most gifted orator of our time and has donations following as freely as his charm, he's NOT GOING TO GET ELECTED.

... unless he chooses the correct running mate. Bob Dole would have probably beaten Bill Clinton if Colin Powell agreed to be his veep.

Agreed completely about the Muslim deal...some of you idjits fail to realize that there are millions of Great Muslims just like there are millions of great Christians. Each side has fanatics although the Christian fanatics arent so violent it would seem. But to emphasize Hussein as some of you keep doing is pathetic, Hussein is a commonly used name and just because of one dictator you want to act like its a horrible thing.

YOu do know that one of Osama Bin Ladens sons is a peaceful person who wants to help people out and spread the word of peace.

Collier11
6/16/2008, 08:47 AM
Maybe I am narrow minded but I cannot ever see myself voting for anything but a christian or atleast christian raised politician. Even if they are corrupt to the gills at least I know that they have the same base values that I do.

I dont think you are narrow minded considering that some 80% of this country claim to be Christian, I would have to think long and hard before I ever voted for someone who wasnt a Christian. That being said, Mccain and Obama are Christians so we dont have to worry for now

Blue
6/16/2008, 08:59 AM
What has the self proclaimed "Christian" GWBush done for evangelicals? Abortion-Nothing...claiming we all worship the same Diety-yes. An atheist might be right up our alley.

If there was a true fundamentalist Christian in the WHouse, all hell would break lose. IMO.

achiro
6/16/2008, 11:12 AM
Obama are Christians

are you sure?


In The Audacity of Hope, Obama writes that he "was not raised in a religious household." He describes his mother, raised by non-religious parents, as detached from religion, yet "in many ways the most spiritually awakened person that I have ever known." He describes his Kenyan father as "raised a Muslim," but a "confirmed atheist" by the time his parents met, and his Indonesian stepfather as "a man who saw religion as not particularly useful." In the book, Obama explains how, through working with black churches as a community organizer while in his twenties, he came to understand "the power of the African-American religious tradition to spur social change."


I don't knw the answer for sure. Has he ever been bababababatised? I really don't know the answer to that. Has he attended the church for 20 years because of Jesus or because of "the power of the tradition to spur social change?"

yermom
6/16/2008, 11:24 AM
either way he has to spout the same rhetoric...

soonerscuba
6/16/2008, 11:27 AM
I don't know for sure, but John McCain might eat babies, I mean I have never seen him eat a baby, but you never know. I also can't be sure that he doesn't love prostitutes, I just don't know.

Wow, this is fun.

yermom
6/16/2008, 11:28 AM
i wonder if he has any recipes

achiro
6/16/2008, 11:31 AM
I don't know for sure, but John McCain might eat babies, I mean I have never seen him eat a baby, but you never know. I also can't be sure that he doesn't love prostitutes, I just don't know.

Wow, this is fun.

Hey, I figured some of you obama puffers should know enough about your candidate to at least know if he had been. But it's easier to avoid the question I guess. Thats how he's gotten this far.

Fraggle145
6/16/2008, 11:33 AM
Each side has fanatics although the Christian fanatics arent so violent it would seem...

Debatable... e.g., the crusades. YWIA.

yermom
6/16/2008, 11:37 AM
you don't have to go back nearly that far...

soonerscuba
6/16/2008, 11:38 AM
Hey, I figured some of you obama puffers should know enough about your candidate to at least know if he had been. But it's easier to avoid the question I guess. Thats how he's gotten this far.
Obama was baptized at Trinity in 1988, all of this info is so insanely available because of people exactly like you who pose rumor without checking to see if it's fact. Obama is a Christian, he is not now, nor has he ever been a Muslim, I really, really don't know how to make it any more simple.

He is rich for criticism based on his politics, but rumor is just annoying.

Collier11
6/16/2008, 11:48 AM
Debatable... e.g., the crusades. YWIA.

im pretty sure that neither of us were alive during the crusades, I was speaking of the current status

mdklatt
6/16/2008, 11:50 AM
He is rich for criticism based on his politics, but rumor is just annoying.

Why do people even waste their time with this stuff? Whose minds are they trying to change? The people who are going to buy the "secret Muslim" stuff are already not going to vote for him.

yermom
6/16/2008, 11:52 AM
i doubt that's really true

Collier11
6/16/2008, 11:52 AM
Hey, I figured some of you obama puffers should know enough about your candidate to at least know if he had been. But it's easier to avoid the question I guess. Thats how he's gotten this far.

Im no "Obama Puffer" as you like to call them and I see many flaws in the guy but knowing that he is a Christian, has been baptized, and has never been a muslim is common knowledge.

Obama=must be a terrorist muslim is the same as saying Im a sinner so I must be a hipocrite since I am a Christian

Fraggle145
6/16/2008, 11:53 AM
you don't have to go back nearly that far...

I know it was just the first thing that came to mind...

OklahomaRed
6/16/2008, 11:54 AM
Back to the citizenship issue. Obviously Barrack is a citizen of the US and entitled to all the rights & priviledes of a US citizen. Also, being an avowed Christian, and having not really blown my witness on this board (yet), even though I am as human as the next guy, and I mess up all the time; I would say I would NOT vote for a corrupt Christian over an honest atheist. What is between an individual and his creator is one thing; however, to say "corrupt" and "christian" together is an oxymoron. How can someone be a Christian and also be corrupt? I think that is what (and continues to give) gives Christians a bad name. People who spout that they are Christians and then don't walk the walk.

With that said, it's tough being a Christian because the rest of society just sits around and waits for you to stumble, and then they jump on you and say, "See! There goes a hypocrit! You can't believe anything a Christian says!"

On the citizenship deal. I do feel the laws need to be changed a little as far as being "born in the US". One hospital I am familiar with that sits on the border got into some hot water a couple of years back. Their security guards were forced by the courts to change their uniforms from "border patrol" green to some other color. Why? Because mothers from Mexico will come across the border and sit in the parking lot until their baby is being birthed, then someone will run into the hospital and get the medics to come out and bring the mother in. Where the baby is born and becomes a US citizen. Fair? :confused:

Under our current laws, "YES". I would like to know your thoughts before responding further?

XingTheRubicon
6/16/2008, 11:56 AM
Debatable... e.g., the crusades. YWIA.


How 'bout events within the last 800 years.....YWIA.

mdklatt
6/16/2008, 12:03 PM
How 'bout events within the last 800 years.....YWIA.

http://www.armyofgod.com/

http://www.aryannations.org/

XingTheRubicon
6/16/2008, 12:06 PM
You wanna compare body counts?

YWIA

mdklatt
6/16/2008, 12:08 PM
You wanna compare body counts?

YWIA

Ahhh, the moving goal post.

achiro
6/16/2008, 12:08 PM
Obama was baptized at Trinity in 1988, all of this info is so insanely available because of people exactly like you who pose rumor without checking to see if it's fact. Obama is a Christian, he is not now, nor has he ever been a Muslim, I really, really don't know how to make it any more simple.

He is rich for criticism based on his politics, but rumor is just annoying.


What part of me saying I didn't know don't you understand? I was asking the question. Common knowledge? I didn't know so it wasn't common for me. I've heard him say he's christian, I hadn't ever heard that he was babtized, it's why I asked. If you want to start throwing around rants and attacks based on me asking a question you can just go **** yourself.

achiro
6/16/2008, 12:09 PM
Im no "Obama Puffer" as you like to call them and I see many flaws in the guy but knowing that he is a Christian, has been baptized, and has never been a muslim is common knowledge.

Obama=must be a terrorist muslim is the same as saying Im a sinner so I must be a hipocrite since I am a Christian

Tell me where I called him a muslim.

mdklatt
6/16/2008, 12:12 PM
I've heard him say he's christian, I hadn't ever heard that he was babtized, it's why I asked.

I've never heard McCain say he was baptized, do you want proof from him?

XingTheRubicon
6/16/2008, 12:20 PM
Ahhh, the moving goal post.


Uh, the point was concerning violence.



Each side has fanatics although the Christian fanatics arent so violent it would seem...


I wouldn't dream of derailing your blind hatred for Christianity, however, having a relevant point is almost necessary.

Fraggle145
6/16/2008, 12:23 PM
You wanna compare body counts?

YWIA

Dude, one of the main pillars of nazism was christianity. That body count was pretty high. Not saying that is representative of all christians, all I was pointing out was that there are examples of extreme violence in christianity as well as in islam. So the statement that fundamental extreme christianity isnt violent or is less violent than fundamental extreme islam is debatable at least and at the most false.

achiro
6/16/2008, 12:25 PM
I've never heard McCain say he was baptized, do you want proof from him?

Seriously? I know that you have a couple of brain cells left because I've seen you post some fairly intelligent stuff, I think anyway. You guys are so quick to jump on anyone that asks a question? WOW is all I can say to that.

and just to clarify in case you really weren't using those brain cells when you asked the question...I asked my question based on the original post in this thread. It had nothing to do with McCain. You dig up some quotes from him in his book that say he started at his church because of a political agenda and I will be more than happy to ask if he had been.

JohnnyMack
6/16/2008, 12:25 PM
Now, not to go all tinfoil hat-ty or anything, but there is a rumor making its way around the blogosphere that BHO is unable to produce a birth certificate. Apparently ascribed to the fact only three years after statehood, Hawaii had not established a "vital statistics" bureacracy and thus some people fell through the cracks.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/birthcert

mdklatt
6/16/2008, 12:34 PM
I wouldn't dream of derailing your blind hatred for Christianity

Mission accomplished. :rolleyes:


There is no difference between a Christian fanatic, a Muslim fanatic, or any kind of other fanatic. If those Army of God nuts had been born in the Middle East they'd be strapping on dynamite. For that matter, a large majority of Christians would be kneeling towards Mecca if they'd been born in the Middle EAst, and vice versa. Christianity went through its violent adolescent phase a few centuries ago; Islam is at the same point in its history right now. Lucky us. Does that mean all Muslims should be condemned? Absolutely not.

Fraggle145
6/16/2008, 12:35 PM
Back to the citizenship issue. Obviously Barrack is a citizen of the US and entitled to all the rights & priviledes of a US citizen. Also, being an avowed Christian, and having not really blown my witness on this board (yet), even though I am as human as the next guy, and I mess up all the time; I would say I would NOT vote for a corrupt Christian over an honest atheist. What is between an individual and his creator is one thing; however, to say "corrupt" and "christian" together is an oxymoron. How can someone be a Christian and also be corrupt?

:) this gives me hope.


I think that is what (and continues to give) gives Christians a bad name. People who spout that they are Christians and then don't walk the walk.

Exactly.


With that said, it's tough being a Christian because the rest of society just sits around and waits for you to stumble, and then they jump on you and say, "See! There goes a hypocrit! You can't believe anything a Christian says!"

I think this goes both ways... I could just as easily say that whenever someone from another religion messes up, some Christians jump on them and say "See! You need Jesus you heathen!" or something to that extent. That is what makes this issue difficult because both sides feel persecuted by the other. Whihc makes me point out that there are more christians in theis country than any other religion, so a real question, who do you think gets the short end of the stick more often?



On the citizenship deal. I do feel the laws need to be changed a little as far as being "born in the US". One hospital I am familiar with that sits on the border got into some hot water a couple of years back. Their security guards were forced by the courts to change their uniforms from "border patrol" green to some other color. Why? Because mothers from Mexico will come across the border and sit in the parking lot until their baby is being birthed, then someone will run into the hospital and get the medics to come out and bring the mother in. Where the baby is born and becomes a US citizen. Fair? :confused:

Under our current laws, "YES". I would like to know your thoughts before responding further?

Not necessarily my favorite thing... But what are we supposed to do about it let the mother and baby die? A lot of our anscestors came here on boats in pretty bad shape too. Honestly, I dont know the answer or if there is an answer to this.

badger
6/16/2008, 12:38 PM
How 'bout events within the last 800 years.....YWIA.

One might argue that Hitler rose to power in Germany so fast because of Christian-Jewish animosity in that country.

That one will not be me, but depending on your views, you could also argue that the U.S. defense of Israel is also influenced on Christian ideals. Perhaps the Vietnam and Korean Wars had U.S. involvement to stiffle communist, anti-religious ideals.

But, I regress. War is hardly ever caused just because of one thing, like Christianity. Usually, there are many different causes of war, not just religion. There are also usually many countries involved, not just us vs. them, with sides draw based on many interests at stake.

Now, if you were to ask about specific acts of violence, not just full-scale wars, based on religion alone, I'm sure we can find some for you that would fit all religions, and yes, these events would be in the last 900 year.s

yermom
6/16/2008, 12:39 PM
Not necessarily my favorite thing... But what are we supposed to do about it let the mother and baby die? A lot of our anscestors came here on boats in pretty bad shape too. Honestly, I dont know the answer or if there is an answer to this.
__________________

the answer is to then send them both to Mexico packing ;)

being born to someone that lives here is one thing

the whole point of the law at the time was not to deny former slaves citizenship, that problem is way over

Collier11
6/16/2008, 12:41 PM
Tell me where I called him a muslim.

I wasnt referring to you, I am talking about all the people who "accuse" him of being a muslim, therefore having terrorist ties, or that his middle name somehow associates him with terrorists and/or Saddam and those like him

mdklatt
6/16/2008, 12:41 PM
You dig up some quotes from him in his book that say he started at his church because of a political agenda and I will be more than happy to ask if he had been.

Does it matter if he's been baptized? I've been baptized, and I don't think anybody here would consider me Christian. Is there a difference between Catholic baptism (where you have no choice in the matter) and being baptized as an adult?

JohnnyMack
6/16/2008, 12:43 PM
Mission accomplished. :rolleyes:


There is no difference between a Christian fanatic, a Muslim fanatic, or any kind of other fanatic. If those Army of God nuts had been born in the Middle East they'd be strapping on dynamite. For that matter, a large majority of Christians would be kneeling towards Mecca if they'd been born in the Middle EAst, and vice versa. Christianity went through its violent adolescent phase a few centuries ago; Islam is at the same point in its history right now. Lucky us. Does that mean all Muslims should be condemned? Absolutely not.

http://www.apple.com/trailers/lions_gate/religulous/

This looks funny as ****.

Collier11
6/16/2008, 12:45 PM
I wouldn't dream of derailing your blind hatred for Christianity, however, having a relevant point is almost necessary.

A relevant point, as in knowing what you are talking about before you talk about it? If thats the case look back over any of my over 5000 posts and I make my beliefs and values very clear on several occasions, hatred for Christianity does not come from a devoted Christian.

You can Try Again Though if you Like!

mdklatt
6/16/2008, 12:49 PM
Dude, one of the main pillars of nazism was christianity.

I think that religion was just a tool for Hitler, not the underlying motivation. Of course I think the same thing about Al Queda and other Islamist groups; at their core they are political. I think the Aryan Nation uses Christianity to try to to justify their late. Now those Army of God folks, I don't think they'd be doing what they do without their religious beliefs egging them on.

Collier11
6/16/2008, 12:50 PM
People who spout that they are Christians and then don't walk the walk.



Depends on your definition of "walking the walk" I dont know too many Christians or people of another religion for that matter that dont constantly fall short of being perfect, its called being a human being, being a sinner. I make mistakes on a minute to minute basis but that doesnt mean I am not a devoted Christian who strives to live in Gods Image. That doesnt make me a hipocrit when I screw up though, it makes me a human.

OklahomaRed
6/16/2008, 01:15 PM
the answer is to then send them both to Mexico packing ;)

being born to someone that lives here is one thing

the whole point of the law at the time was not to deny former slaves citizenship, that problem is way over

My sentiments exactly. The law is old. It needs to be changed to where you do not become a US citizen just because you were born in the US while your mother was "vacationing" here when she delivered. I'm really not up on the law on this issue, but I assume based on the current law, if you are born on US soil, even though both your mother and father are citizens somewhere else, you become a US citizen?

I feel it should be "at least" changed to "born on US soil, and at least one of your parents be a US citizen."

mdklatt
6/16/2008, 01:24 PM
A relevant point, as in knowing what you are talking about before you talk about it? If thats the case look back over any of my over 5000 posts and I make my beliefs and values very clear on several occasions, hatred for Christianity does not come from a devoted Christian.

You can Try Again Though if you Like!

I'm pretty sure that was directed at me, not you.

BlondeSoonerGirl
6/16/2008, 01:35 PM
...If you want to start throwing around rants and attacks based on me asking a question you can just go **** yourself.

http://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/other/greyblink.gif

Vaevictis
6/16/2008, 01:37 PM
How 'bout events within the last 800 years.....YWIA.

Northern Ireland.

Collier11
6/16/2008, 01:40 PM
I'm pretty sure that was directed at me, not you.

well my quote was included at the bottom so either way, he can suck it!!! :D

mdklatt
6/16/2008, 01:53 PM
well my quote was included at the bottom so either way, he can suck it!!! :D

Yeah, that confused me too, because he quoted me at the top then added something that I didn't say.

r5TPsooner
6/16/2008, 02:13 PM
:pop:

Harry Beanbag
6/16/2008, 04:31 PM
Not necessarily my favorite thing... But what are we supposed to do about it let the mother and baby die? A lot of our anscestors came here on boats in pretty bad shape too. Honestly, I dont know the answer or if there is an answer to this.


Close the ****ing border. YWIA.

XingTheRubicon
6/16/2008, 05:03 PM
Northern Ireland.


Soooooooo the airport in Sydney, Australia is profiling for passengers that resemble Danny "the angel" Finnegan.......got it.

SicEmBaylor
6/16/2008, 05:05 PM
i still think that's a dumb law, it might have made sense at the time

Arnold is as American as i am at this point

It's still a good law. I have a strict policy of not tinkering with the Founding formula.

mdklatt
6/16/2008, 05:06 PM
Soooooooo the airport in Sydney, Australia is profiling for passengers that resemble Danny "the angel" Finnegan.......got it.

I saw more white people getting pulled aside than anybody else when I was there....

SicEmBaylor
6/16/2008, 05:13 PM
Close the ****ing border. YWIA.

Yep. You know, I use to make the argument that I have no problem with immigrants as long as they come here legally. I was in the middle of making that argument one day when it occurred to me that I don't even like legal immigrants.

We have enough damned people in this country without importing more. In my opinion, we ought to be exporting a boat load more than we're importing.

XingTheRubicon
6/16/2008, 05:15 PM
A relevant point, as in knowing what you are talking about before you talk about it? If thats the case look back over any of my over 5000 posts and I make my beliefs and values very clear on several occasions, hatred for Christianity does not come from a devoted Christian.

You can Try Again Though if you Like!



I'd like to try again now, if I could.

That post was not directed toward you. I just used your quote while replying to another poster.

XingTheRubicon
6/16/2008, 05:18 PM
I saw more white people getting pulled aside than anybody else when I was there....





no way....................really

Collier11
6/16/2008, 05:19 PM
I'd like to try again now, if I could.

That post was not directed toward you. I just used your quote while replying to another poster.

Try again, I do not accept your apology!!! ;)

Scott D
6/16/2008, 05:25 PM
I saw more white people getting pulled aside than anybody else when I was there....

silly klatt, aboriginals aren't allowed to travel other than on foot ;)

XingTheRubicon
6/16/2008, 05:28 PM
Mission accomplished. :rolleyes:


There is no difference between a Christian fanatic, a Muslim fanatic, or any kind of other fanatic.


One of those 2 is the current leader in killing innocent people today.



I think everyone understands things were dicey and even worse before Gutenberg invented printing press.

C&CDean
6/16/2008, 05:38 PM
I saw more white people getting pulled aside than anybody else when I was there....

Yeah, I guess they're all PC in Australia now too. Don't wanna offend too many "folks o' color" so we gotta do our quota of white boys. You know what? This kinda makes me feel good. I'm finally part of a quota...

C&CDean
6/16/2008, 05:41 PM
Where some of you knuckleheads are missing the boat with all your "nazi = christian" horse**** is that I don't recall Adolph ever shouting "praise be to the Lord!!" as he was gassing innocent jews. You know, like all the ****ing POS muslims who yell "praise be to allah!!" when they're flying airplanes into buildings or cutting off peoples' heads or blowing themselves up in markets and hotels and on buses and pretty much everywhere else.

Your argument is a stupid one, and a weak one. You can do better. And don't even get me started on the numbskulls who go "but, but, but, the crusades....." For ****s sake, people used to bleed themselves back then too. Jeez, I'm surrounded by buffoooooons.

mdklatt
6/16/2008, 05:42 PM
One of those 2 is the current leader in killing innocent people today.

I think everyone understands things were dicey and even worse before Gutenberg invented printing press.

So what are you getting at, that we should never elect a Muslim president? That Islam should be eradicated?

Harry Beanbag
6/16/2008, 05:52 PM
So what are you getting at, that we should never elect a Muslim president? That Islam should be eradicated?


If that's what it takes. ;)

Harry Beanbag
6/16/2008, 05:53 PM
silly klatt, aboriginals aren't allowed to travel other than on foot ;)

And barefoot at that. :)

soonerscuba
6/16/2008, 06:07 PM
We have enough damned people in this country without importing more. In my opinion, we ought to be exporting a boat load more than we're importing.
This is wronger than a really, really wrong thing. In a perfect candy and lollipop version of America, there would be more high-level technical education that would translate into human capital for American companies, that just doesn't exist. There are far too many poli-sci and art history majors coming out and not enough engineers and programmers to keep up with American demand, thus we have to look to other countries to fulfill jobs in America, with workers paying American taxes for American companies.

Granted, the tax system looks very favorably upon American ex-pats, but we just don't have enough technical knowledge to export.

Kill the H1B visa cap, nowish.

StoopTroup
6/16/2008, 06:09 PM
Lets just disqualify them both and start the whole thing over for Hillary. ;) :D

:pop:

mdklatt
6/16/2008, 06:28 PM
There are far too many poli-sci...majors coming out

Way to hit SicEm where he lives. :D

SicEmBaylor
6/16/2008, 07:24 PM
The problem isn't with all political science majors; the problem is that political science is one of those majors that some kids study because they don't know what else or what they want to do. When they graduate they aren't the least bit interested in government or politics so they try to get a job in the private sector.

I've known more than a few of those.

def_lazer_fc
6/16/2008, 07:59 PM
I don't know for sure, but John McCain might eat babies, I mean I have never seen him eat a baby, but you never know. I also can't be sure that he doesn't love prostitutes, I just don't know.

Wow, this is fun.

i hear he also uses kittens for batting practice. again, im not TOTALLY sure on that, but im not going to bother fact checking it cuz im lazy. anyhoo, back to According to Jim.

Fraggle145
6/16/2008, 08:01 PM
So the past has no relevance on current events? got it. :rolleyes:

Or is that just so long as it fits one argument and not the other... fundamentalist Christianity has had just as many nutcases as Fundamentalist Islam has now, Both of them are/were wrong.

Scott D
6/16/2008, 08:01 PM
The problem isn't with all political science majors; the problem is that political science is one of those majors that some kids study because they don't know what else or what they want to do. When they graduate they aren't the least bit interested in government or politics so they try to get a job in the private sector.

I've known more than a few of those.

a poly sci degree should be treated the way it deserves...like a history degree.

XingTheRubicon
6/16/2008, 08:09 PM
So the past has no relevance on current events? got it. :rolleyes:

Or is that just so long as it fits one argument and not the other... fundamentalist Christianity has had just as many nutcases as Fundamentalist Islam has now, Both of them are/were wrong.

Which one's fundamentalist terrorists/nutjobs will kill the most civilians in 2008?



A one word answer will be sufficient.

def_lazer_fc
6/16/2008, 08:15 PM
This is wronger than a really, really wrong thing. In a perfect candy and lollipop version of America, there would be more high-level technical education that would translate into human capital for American companies, that just doesn't exist. There are far too many poli-sci and art history majors coming out and not enough engineers and programmers to keep up with American demand, thus we have to look to other countries to fulfill jobs in America, with workers paying American taxes for American companies.

Granted, the tax system looks very favorably upon American ex-pats, but we just don't have enough technical knowledge to export.

Kill the H1B visa cap, nowish.

i don't know. i gave up on the whole programmer gig, bc mostly around here, programmers are a dime a dozen. i guess in the late nineties, everyone and their mother went into the IT field b/c of the dot com thing. now, theres more supply than demand. i gave it up and started working for the devil: oil companies! they pay better too.

Fraggle145
6/16/2008, 08:36 PM
Which one's fundamentalist terrorists/nutjobs will kill the most civilians in 2008?



A one word answer will be sufficient.

So lets kill em all and remove their heathen religion from the earth :rolleyes:

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

SicEmBaylor
6/16/2008, 08:38 PM
a poly sci degree should be treated the way it deserves...like a history degree.

I'm also a history major.

XingTheRubicon
6/16/2008, 09:50 PM
So lets kill em all and remove their heathen religion from the earth :rolleyes:

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!


Never said that, I don't think anyone has.

I put the odds at 50/1 that you'd answer the question. I may have given you too much credit.

def_lazer_fc
6/16/2008, 11:37 PM
Never said that, I don't think anyone has.


i bet dean has. :D

Vaevictis
6/17/2008, 12:15 AM
There are far too many poli-sci and art history majors coming out and not enough engineers and programmers to keep up with American demand, thus we have to look to other countries to fulfill jobs in America, with workers paying American taxes for American companies.

Bull. Companies like to say there's a shortage, but wages just don't carry it out. If there truly was a shortage, you'd see crazy increases in wages like you saw in the late 1990's, but you're just plain not seeing them.

The correct way to describe it is: "There's a shortage of workers in this field who are willing to work for the price companies want to pay."

I've seen job advertisement after job advertisement where they want people with senior level experience to accept junior level jobs (and hence pay). Is it any surprise at all that they have a hard time finding takers?

Fraggle145
6/17/2008, 12:16 AM
Uh, the point was concerning violence.

I wouldn't dream of derailing your blind hatred for Christianity, however, having a relevant point is almost necessary.

To get back to the original point of all this mess. All I was pointing out was that the point was debatable as to whether extreme fundamental christians were less violent. Extreme fundamental Islamist groups will likely be responsible for a greater body count in 2008 (happy? I said it :rolleyes: ).

However, it cant be ignored that fundamental christian groups will also be responsible for acts of violence (such as Army of God as seen earlier in the thread) and extreme fundamental christian groups have had a bloody past well within the 20th and 21st centuries, as well as in previous centuries. Hence, why I was saying that it was debatable that fundamental extreme christians are less violent.

I dont get why you dont want to admit this, unless you think I am trying to use them to attack christianity as a whole. You have yet to address this point in the entire thread.

Overall true christians do lots of great stuff and I am not trying to put the two under the same umbrella.

And for the record I dont hate christianity, do whatever makes you happy with regards to your religion. The only thing that I have stated everytime this issue comes up is that I wish there was equal treatment for those that dont believe the same or dont wish to follow any religion, and I defend that position.

Vaevictis
6/17/2008, 12:24 AM
Soooooooo the airport in Sydney, Australia is profiling for passengers that resemble Danny "the angel" Finnegan.......got it.

No, but I'm willing to bet that British airports did from 1969-1995.

The problems in Northern Ireland may have died down in the past 15 years or so, but they happened considerably more recently than say, the Crusades (which is what you asked for.)

The fact is that Muslims don't have a monopoly on the use of terrorism. Jews and Christians have regularly gotten into the act over the past hundred years or so.

It's just that Muslims happen to be the ones actively doing it the most right now.

Fraggle145
6/17/2008, 11:30 AM
Never said that, I don't think anyone has.

I put the odds at 50/1 that you'd answer the question. I may have given you too much credit.


I dont get why you dont want to admit this, unless you think I am trying to use them to attack christianity as a whole. You have yet to address this point in the entire thread.

I guess I'd put the same odds on you actually addressing this issue... :pop:

sooner_born_1960
6/17/2008, 11:39 AM
Has he picked his co-conspiritor, er, running mate yet?

badger
6/17/2008, 11:40 AM
How soon until we need V to knock down a controlling government that causes all of us to live in fear?