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badger
5/29/2008, 10:06 AM
Ok, since this issue hasn't been updated in awhile, I thought a thread with any and all news on the hopefully-soon-probably-not NBA team in Oklahoma City. Because they're known as the "Sonics" for now, I'll dub it "SONICWATCH" and update it whenever there's applicable news. This is getting to be "it" for the fight between OKC and Seattle --- the trial starts June 16 and the outcome of said trial will determine whether we wait for another year or two for the NBA in Oklahoma.

For now, here's what we know...

...on the lawsuit:
NewsOK: Sonic owners (pro-OKC) don't want Seattle's alt media personalities involved. (http://newsok.com/sonics-owners-want-media-personalities-banned/article/3249389/?tm=1211949665)

NewsOK: City of Seattle doesn't want survey (which finds that Seattle is largely apathetic toward the NBA move) results involved. (http://newsok.com/survey-seattle-residents-are-apathetic-about-teams-move/article/3249902/?tm=1212040028)

Seattle Times: Revealing e-mails (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004435661_sonics24m.html)

Seattle P-I: City of Seattle wants to limit suit evidence scope (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/364989_arena29.html)

Seattle Times: Oklahoma City stakes claim in Sonics (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004404211_websonics09m.html)

In a nutshell, both the city of Seattle and the Sonics owners are preparing for the June 16 lawsuit by deciding who should and shouldn't testify and what evidence to present. Both sides have damaging evidence and witnesses to each other's cases which they are trying to limit or keep from testifying. On the side, the city of OKC is also getting involved by saying they have a claim to the team, regardless of who the owner is.

... on ownership:
Houston Chronicle: (Former Sonics owner) Schultz claims breach of contract (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bk/bkn/5795665.html)

AP: Potential Sonics buyers (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iNxGDMlIr8G1eZVjbWq68tlRAF7QD90HQHK80)

NewsOK: Owners say Sonics not for sale (http://newsok.com/owners-tell-court-sonics-not-for-sale/article/3238410/)

In a nutshell, the former Sonics owner (Starbucks owner) is trying to save face by getting the Soncis to stay in Seattle. The current ownership, headed by OKC businessman Clay Bennett, is also dealing with offers from Seattle locals who want to purchase the Sonics. However, Bennett et al is saying "no."

... on the move and the name.

HoopsWorld: Bennett to players not wanting to move to OKC: "Boo Hoo." (http://www.hoopsworld.com/HeadlineStories.asp?hd=20080527&lc=NBA#STORY_8932)

ESPN: Sonics name must include Oklahoma City (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3374061)

Please add any updates as they come up. Here's hoping this gets resolved soon. On a personal note, I really didn't want Seattle to lose their team. I just wanted OKC (or anywhere in Oklahoma) to get their own team.

stoops the eternal pimp
5/29/2008, 10:28 AM
Thanks Badger....BTW, as a way of supporting my OKC friends, I am boycotting Starbucks til this is all over with and the team is in OKC...I m sure they ll miss my 4 bucks a day.

badger
5/29/2008, 10:44 AM
Thanks Badger....BTW, as a way of supporting my OKC friends, I am boycotting Starbucks til this is all over with and the team is in OKC...I m sure they ll miss my 4 bucks a day.

I would now like to add to my previous thread with...

...on Starbucks:

Newson9: Metro man plans boycott (http://www.news9.com/global/story.asp?s=8253356)

Seattle Times: Boycott away, Seattle fans. It won't matter. (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sonics/2003136404_starbucks19.html)

In a nutshell, both Seattle and OKC hate Starbucks right now (but Seattle might love Starbucks if Schultz can keep the Sonics in Seattle now). Another clear sign that the lawsuit by Schultz for breach of contract might have been a face saving move more than anything else.

PS: Can someone start a Sooner recruiting update thread? I would, but I don't want to seem like the basketball thread whorn. We have had a lot of little threads on this and that recruit and we got another commit this week, but not really any huge discussion on it. I promise to contribute once it get started kplzthx :D

NormanPride
5/29/2008, 01:54 PM
Psst... there's a recruiting board. :D

Crimsontothecore
5/30/2008, 07:16 AM
On a personal note, I really didn't want Seattle to lose their team. I just wanted OKC (or anywhere in Oklahoma) to get their own team.

Well, OKC has already announced the new team will be THEIRS and not an "Oklahoma" team. They think they will support the team just fine but I'm willing to bet they end up needing Tulsa fans driving down there to help fill the empty seats.
They think support was proven because the Hornets visited for 2 years. Fact is, once OKC has "their" team secured, they will find out things change. we will see how much support they give once the novelty wears off and it's old news.
I've never figured out how OKC's metro population of 1.2 million is supposed to offer more support than Seattle's metro population of 3.9 million.
Fact is, OKC was "dating" the Hornets and putting their best foot forward. They will be "married" to the Sonics. We all know the difference.

OU Adonis
5/30/2008, 10:09 AM
I've never figured out how OKC's metro population of 1.2 million is supposed to offer more support than Seattle's metro population of 3.9 million.
Fact is, OKC was "dating" the Hornets and putting their best foot forward. They will be "married" to the Sonics. We all know the difference.

Because there are 3 major sports franchises in Seattle, none in OKC. Their interest is split.

Why the negativity Crimson? Worried that OU football support will drop off? I wouldn't worry about that.

badger
5/30/2008, 10:19 AM
Well, if its any consolidation, guys, Bayless hates Starbucks and wants to play for the Sonics regardless of where they're located:
Hoopsworld: Bayless sold on Sonics (http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=8886)

And so begins this edition of SONICWATCH, when we look at the draft. Remember, the Sonics have the No. 4 pick...

Seattle P-I: Picks muse on Seattle (Eric Gordon prefers OKC, lolz) (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/365182_sonx30.html)

Seattle P-I: Who to draft? (Notes on B. Lopez, Augustin, other froshies) (http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/sonics/archives/140000.asp)

NewsOk: Lots of options (notes on how the Sonics will use No. 4 and No. 24 picks) (http://newsok.com/options-aplenty-for-sonics-several-players-could-be-worth-taking-with-no.-4-pick/article/3248608/?tm=1211811290)

On a personal note, I think the Sonics will thrive in OKC for years. The taxpayers have vested not only a few years in the Hornets, but millions in tax dollars on the Ford Center, so there would be no reason to think they'll get bored after a few years. The tax measure didn't just pass, it PASSED.

Whether or not Sonic players will want to come to OKC instead of Seattle? Well, Bennett's already said it: "Boo hoo." Oh please send me to OKC for a few million per year to play a game.

NormanPride
5/30/2008, 01:11 PM
It's better than Toronto.

badger
5/30/2008, 02:36 PM
It's better than Toronto.

True, and it's also better than not getting drafted at all and being in some weird town with a D-League team (like in South Dakota) or worse yet, a foreign country that shouts racial slurs at minorities.

In this edition of SONICWATCH, we test the odds...
USA Today: Many collegians who declare (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/2008-05-30-1237944818_x.htm)

There are 60 spots in the draft on June 26. Players who are underclassmen (I think there was 69 who declared, not sure how many hired an agent) have until 4 p.m. Oklahoma time June 16 to drop out of the draft if they haven't hired an agent. Once again, the Sonics will have picks No. 4, No. 24, No. 32, No. 46 and No. 50 and No. 56. Yes, a lot of picks, but most other teams have two, so if you don't like the first name you hear, that's ok, because we'll have five other chances to hit a star :D

With that in mind, it could be possible for us to draft both Lopez brothers out of Stanford:
San Jose Mercury News: Lopez prepares for NBA (http://www.mercurynews.com/collegesports/ci_9424994)

Not that we should hope for that, because watching them in the tourney was troubling -- very dirty players.

The Sonics have invested a lot in this draft by what they did last year. Here's a reminder of that:
RealGM: Sonics draft overview (http://www.realgm.com/src_twoplusthefoul/193/20080530/30_teams_30_days_seattle_draft_preview/)

Perhaps the wrong timing on their part as a lot of teams are looking to get rid of picks or move down this year:
HoopsWorld: Draft a seller's market? (http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?STORY_ID=8870)

Personally, I think this clout of players available in the draft just shows why the NBA is limiting when people can enter. Basically, the admissions standards have been risen at the prestigious college of hoops. In the future, instead of simply raising the age requirement, they may make the draft invite-only. In other words, players know they're out before wasting a night in front of a television screen crying after No. 60 is announced... and it wasn't them once again.

This would not be unprecedented, as other leagues (I can't think of any major major leagues that have done it) have narrowed draft pools in this way, such as the XFL. Allow an agent-free tryout session for players, let them get evaluated fairly among the NBA teams and let the teams declare which can be eligible for the draft. This isn't about protecting young players from the harsh realities of million dollar contracts or other B.S. that floats around that oftens results in the race card getting played. This is about a limited demand for an overabundance of supply.

Crimsontothecore
5/30/2008, 03:06 PM
Because there are 3 major sports franchises in Seattle, none in OKC. Their interest is split.

Why the negativity Crimson? Worried that OU football support will drop off? I wouldn't worry about that.

No, I'm not worried about support for OU football. OKC could have three NFL teams and OU would still sell out. Two different animals.
My negativity comes from the comments I heard when it was suggested the NBA team bear an "Oklahoma _____" name as opposed to an "Oklahoma City ____" name. Comments like "Its OUR team, not Tulsa's" and crap like that gets on my nerves. I still contend that the support OKC gave the Hornets proves nothing as to how much LONG TERM support they will give their own team. The Hornets stay was temporary and everyone knew it. It was "cool" to go to an NBA game because it was new. That honeymoon won't exist forever.
The argument that the Sonics lost support because Seattle has three franchises doesn't hold water. If your an NBA fan, you're going to support your team regardless of whether the NFL and MLB has teams in your city. Besides, like I said, Seattle has 3 times as many people so that pretty much makes the "3 franchises" argument a wash at best.

Dio
5/30/2008, 04:06 PM
OKC's been paying a sales tax for 15 years to get to this point. The team will play in OKC, and the owners live in OKC. Why shouldn't it be the Oklahoma City __________s? Do people in Ft Worth like the Rangers better than the Cowboys because they're the Texas Rangers and the Dallas Cowboys? People who get up in arms over this are looking for an excuse to get up in arms, IMHO.

badger
5/30/2008, 04:25 PM
OKC's been paying a sales tax for 15 years to get to this point. The team will play in OKC, and the owners live in OKC. Why shouldn't it be the Oklahoma City __________s? Do people in Ft Worth like the Rangers better than the Cowboys because they're the Texas Rangers and the Dallas Cowboys? People who get up in arms over this are looking for an excuse to get up in arms, IMHO.

Yeah... and fitting "Oklahoma City" isn't too hard... just look at Anaheim and Los Angeles.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Anaheim_v._Angels_Baseball_LP)

And for the record, Tulsa lost our NBA D-league team to Bixby. (http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/article.aspx?articleID=20080213_2_B1_hTuls48120) As long as you guys move a few games up to Oklahoma City each year, I think it'll keep the peace and expand the fan base well. A game or two in Norman (oh what the heck, Stilly can have a game every five years, too) would help too.

Crimsontothecore
5/30/2008, 04:51 PM
OKC's been paying a sales tax for 15 years to get to this point. The team will play in OKC, and the owners live in OKC. Why shouldn't it be the Oklahoma City __________s? Do people in Ft Worth like the Rangers better than the Cowboys because they're the Texas Rangers and the Dallas Cowboys? People who get up in arms over this are looking for an excuse to get up in arms, IMHO.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be. It just came across sounding childish like "It's my ball and you can't play". I also thought it was embarrassing the way OKC acted when the Hornets announced they would return to New Orleans. They begged to get the hornets there on a temporary basis after the hurricane and then acted like they shouldn't leave. Kinda like a friend offering you a place to stay after a tornado wipes out your house, and then when you try to move out he wants to keep your wife.
I'll bet OKC will gladly accept the money from all the Tulsa people who drive down and help fill the seats for "their" team.

Big Red Ron
5/31/2008, 02:45 AM
I'll bet OKC will gladly accept the money from all the Tulsa people who drive down and help fill the seats for "their" team.
Let's be clear about something. It was George Shin, owner of the Hornets that, "Begged" to stay in OKC.

Sure we will. Ya know, Seattle and Portland are almost the same distance apart as OKC and Tulsa.

Maybe Tulsa should get their crap together and get their own team.

OKC's leaders, taxpayers and fans are the reason this team is coming here. We're branding our city, it would make no sense to call it Oklahoma whatever, considering all that.

Enjoy our team and we'll welcome you here in OKLAHOMA CITY!

badger
5/31/2008, 09:15 AM
There really is no news that is new on SONICWATCH front. Therefore, I wish to take this opportunity to just talk Sonics, which is what you all appear to be doing anyway.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2e/Wheedle2008Small.jpg
Everyone, this is "The Wheedle," the original mascot of the Seattle Supersonics from 1978 to 1985. Yes, weird, but like all weird mascots, there is a story behind it: a Seattle children's author wrote a book called "The Wheedle on the Needle" (yes, that needle), so The Wheedle was famous in Seattle for that. As weird as Wheedle is, he helped Seattle to their only title, which was in 1979.

http://frinklinspeaks.mu.nu/archives/Squatch%20dunking.jpg
What a Wookie! Actually, this is the Sonics current mascot (since 1993) and it is simply "Squatch." No, not "Squash," but Squatch... and apparently, there weren't enough hairy dunking mascots in the NBA so they added Squatch.

http://www.uconnhuskies.com/sports/WBasketball/WNBA/Logos/Seattle%20Storm.gif
Oh, hello Storm! Actually, goodbye. While the Sonics and the Storm were joint brother-sister organizations, this partnership ended on February 28, when the Storm was sold off to Seattle-area buyers... sorry, the Sonics are not for sale, Seattle-area buyers. So, no need to worry about the WNBA, which Futurama reminds you, cannot dunk but they have better fundamentals.

http://www.dougloudenback.com/hornets/Seattle.KeyArena4.jpg
My, don't you look... weird. And old. And... not like a key. Alas, though the name does not imply it, this is Key Arena, formerly Seattle Center Colliseum. It is not named "Key" because it sounds cool or anything, but rather, after Key Bank, the title sponsor, much like "Ford Center" and "BOK Center" in Oklahoma. The arena opened in 1962 and had a renovation in 1994, but as you can see, it is showing its age and has been panned by the NBA as one of the worst in the league, not just for its age, but for the lease tied to it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d9/SeattleSuperSonicsOld.png/180px-SeattleSuperSonicsOld.png
So you all must be wondering "What's in a name?" when Seattle chants about "Save our Sonics!" and such. Well, Bennett has already agreed to let Seattle have the "Sonics" name, but they've actually been rejected long before concerning this. The name "Supersonics" was named after a Boeing contract about to come to Seattle for the Boeing 2707 (just remember that as the first American supersonic transport, or SST). But... it never happened. The deal was canceled in 1971 over environmental concerns (sonic boom, anyone?) and they moved out of Seattle before it really materialized. Thus, the city of Seattle has really no claims to the name, other than the love and adoration of the first major league team to come to Seattle. For the record, the Mariners started in 1977 and the Seahawks started in 1976.

So, I hope you feel more educated. We are getting Seattle's oldest (which isn't really that old) major franchise, but not a name they have no stake in at all, nor the sister WNBA team. Perhaps they will leave Squatch behind with Weedle (currently in a faux-frozen state, lol), but one thing's for sure - Ford Center > KeyArena and you can thank the great taxpayers of OKC for the prospect of a smaller market getting the prize.

Crimsontothecore
5/31/2008, 09:55 AM
Let's be clear about something. It was George Shin, owner of the Hornets that, "Begged" to stay in OKC.

Sure we will. Ya know, Seattle and Portland are almost the same distance apart as OKC and Tulsa.

Maybe Tulsa should get their crap together and get their own team.

OKC's leaders, taxpayers and fans are the reason this team is coming here. We're branding our city, it would make no sense to call it Oklahoma whatever, considering all that.

Enjoy our team and we'll welcome you here in OKLAHOMA CITY!

I remember OKC competing with several other cities when the Hornets needed a TEMPORARY home. Shin begged to stay? I remember him saying he hoped OKC would understand that he believed the right thing to do was return to NO.
Regardless, I still say 5 years from now OKC will not be filling any more seats that Seattle did. Let's wait and see.
Tulsa should get their crap together? Apparently you haven't seen the BOK center. It makes the Ford center look like a high school gym.

Crimsontothecore
5/31/2008, 10:09 AM
Hmmmm..which city doesn't have its crap together?
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd53/mollytrixie/1245789.jpg

Big Red Ron
5/31/2008, 12:21 PM
The Ford center is old and was purchased on the cheap. In case you forgot, we just passed an initiative to upgrade it...

I like how you used an artists rendering for your arena. Here's our's. Will your's be done before our $122 million upgrades?

http://newsok.com/article/3212197/1204732053

http://www.arenadigest.com/images/ford_center/FCrenov2w.jpg

Big Red Ron
5/31/2008, 12:29 PM
You obviously know nothing of the situation here, when the Hornets actively lobbied to stay in OKC. Shinn never wanted to go back. He knew it was the right thing because Stern told him he was going back. Why? Stern knew the ownership group owned a team in Seattle and it was likely coming here.

Tulsa building an arena is a joke. Tulsa is a dying city, OKC is growing faster than most. "OKC is the most recession proof city in America," per Forbes.

You are simply jealous, I don't blame you. Tulsa has thought of themselves as superior to OKC for a long time. It simply isn't true and that has been proved time and time again. Population (OKC), average income (OKC), crime rate (Tulsa), murder rate (Tulsa), etc...

Big Red Ron
5/31/2008, 12:50 PM
BTW, this is what the ford center looks like now.

http://www.travelok.com/graphics/siebel_photos/To_Do/1-K7AZ.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/23/24478444_7ffa3c4539.jpg?v=0

badger
5/31/2008, 12:55 PM
Guys, can't we keep the bashing to Seattle? Here's some motivation:
http://www.techztalk.com/techwebsite/system/files/images/normal_Starbucks_logo_RGB.jpg
OKC doesn't have a team yet, and if it won't this season, you will have Mr. Starbucks to blame, not Tulsa, not the BOK Center, etc.

Big Red Ron
5/31/2008, 01:02 PM
Guys, can't we keep the bashing to Seattle? Here's some motivation:
http://www.techztalk.com/techwebsite/system/files/images/normal_Starbucks_logo_RGB.jpg
OKC doesn't have a team yet, and if it won't this season, you will have Mr. Starbucks to blame, not Tulsa, not the BOK Center, etc.Oh, I know. Tulsa is like a gnat on the big dog's... It's just bothers me to hear "trees and hills" folks whine about OKC and that somehow we wont support our team.

I think we have a great chance to have them for 2009.

Crimsontothecore
5/31/2008, 02:14 PM
The Ford center is old and was purchased on the cheap. In case you forgot, we just passed an initiative to upgrade it...

I like how you used an artists rendering for your arena. Here's our's. Will your's be done before our $122 million upgrades?

http://newsok.com/article/3212197/1204732053

http://www.arenadigest.com/images/ford_center/FCrenov2w.jpg

Well, artists rendering is necessary since it's not yet completed. Rest assured it will look the same when it opens at the end of the summer.

Crimsontothecore
5/31/2008, 02:27 PM
You obviously know nothing of the situation here, when the Hornets actively lobbied to stay in OKC. Shinn never wanted to go back. He knew it was the right thing because Stern told him he was going back. Why? Stern knew the ownership group owned a team in Seattle and it was likely coming here.

Tulsa building an arena is a joke. Tulsa is a dying city, OKC is growing faster than most. "OKC is the most recession proof city in America," per Forbes.

You are simply jealous, I don't blame you. Tulsa has thought of themselves as superior to OKC for a long time. It simply isn't true and that has been proved time and time again. Population (OKC), average income (OKC), crime rate (Tulsa), murder rate (Tulsa), etc...

First of all, My original statement was that OKC begged to get the Hornets after the hurricane. That statement is absolutely true. You somehow got off on how Shinn didn't want to leave. Keep up or take notes.

Not only was Tulsa recently voted the 4th most livable city in America, but your facts are untrue.

These stats are from CNNMoney.com
Average household income: Tulsa-$49,120
OKC- $48,162

Personal/Property crime incidents (per 1,000 pop.)
Tulsa- 185
OKC- 237
Also, Tulsa has more residents who attended college. Sales tax is lower in Tulsa. Commute time is less in Tulsa.

By the way, I don't live in Tulsa but having been to both cities countless times during my life, I much prefer Tulsa.
Do yourself a favor and get your facts straight the next time you try to make a point.

P.S. Tulsa's arena is a joke? Why exactly? Do I sense jealousy?

Big Red Ron
5/31/2008, 06:35 PM
Tulsa is in steep decline bud. Your numbers are dated and there are more murders per capita in Tulsa than anywhere in Oklahoma. Also, OKC has almost half a million more residents when you include both Tulsa and OKC's greater metro areas.

Also, in case you missed it OKC was named "America's most recession proof city" by Forbes.

Not to mention that Devon Energy Corp. (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Devon+Energy+Corporation&CATEGORY=COMPANY) is pursuing plans to build a new "iconic” downtown corporate headquarters — one that would be the tallest building in Oklahoma City.

http://newsok.com/article/3237534

http://www.2boonesales.com/images/Oklahoma-City-downtown-night-time-skyline.jpg

Tulsa's arena will be nice, it's a joke that they built it. There's nothing to go in it but a third rate hockey team and an AF2 team.

Big Red Ron
5/31/2008, 08:30 PM
First of all, My original statement was that OKC begged to get the Hornets after the hurricane. That statement is absolutely true. It's not "absolutely true" We had a facility ready to go and political and business leaders able to make it happen. It wasn't like there was a lot of competition. Shreveport or OKC, hmmm...tough choice there.

You are obviously misinformed on many levels.

Crimsontothecore
5/31/2008, 09:35 PM
Tulsa is in steep decline bud. Your numbers are dated and there are more murders per capita in Tulsa than anywhere in Oklahoma. Also, OKC has almost half a million more residents when you include both Tulsa and OKC's greater metro areas.

Also, in case you missed it OKC was named "America's most recession proof city" by Forbes.

Not to mention that Devon Energy Corp. (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Devon+Energy+Corporation&CATEGORY=COMPANY) is pursuing plans to build a new "iconic” downtown corporate headquarters — one that would be the tallest building in Oklahoma City.

http://newsok.com/article/3237534

http://www.2boonesales.com/images/Oklahoma-City-downtown-night-time-skyline.jpg

Tulsa's arena will be nice, it's a joke that they built it. There's nothing to go in it but a third rate hockey team and an AF2 team.

Gee, I wonder how OKC could rank as "America's most recession proof city" and yet still not make the cut as one of the most livable? Tulsa comes in at #4 in spite of all those murders. Doesn't make much sense does it? Care to explain that?

Congratulations on the upcoming "tallest building in OKC". Did you know Tulsa has the two tallest buildings in the state?

Crimsontothecore
5/31/2008, 09:36 PM
It's not "absolutely true" We had a facility ready to go and political and business leaders able to make it happen. It wasn't like there was a lot of competition. Shreveport or OKC, hmmm...tough choice there.

You are obviously misinformed on many levels.
Ok, let me rephrase it. OKC's political and business leaders begged to get the Hornets.

Big Red Ron
5/31/2008, 10:24 PM
Gee, I wonder how OKC could rank as "America's most recession proof city" and yet still not make the cut as one of the most livable? Tulsa comes in at #4 in spite of all those murders. Doesn't make much sense does it? Care to explain that?

Congratulations on the upcoming "tallest building in OKC". Did you know Tulsa has the two tallest buildings in the state?
Well since the recession proof thing was by Forbes and this year and your livable thing was done by something I've never heard of and I have no idea when, I would say whatever.

I wouldn't necessarily brag about the tallest building in Oklahoma when it's an eye sore and quite old.

Tulsa is yesterday, OKC is now and the future.

Enjoy.

Big Red Ron
5/31/2008, 10:26 PM
http://www.forbes.com/2008/04/29/cities-recession-places-forbeslife-cx_jz_0429realestate.html

Nationally, home prices (http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/05/18/afx5023005.html?partner=lingospot) are falling, unemployment is on the rise and the economy is expected to grow slowly--or even contract--in the first half of the year.

But some cities are doing just fine.

Take Oklahoma City, Okla. (http://www.forbes.com/2008/04/29/cities-recession-places-forbeslife-cx_jz_0429realestate_slide_11.html?thisSpeed=20000 ) With falling unemployment, one of the country's strongest housing markets, and solid growth in agriculture, energy and manufacturing, it looks best positioned among the nation's largest metropolitan areas to ride out the current crisis.

Big Red Ron
5/31/2008, 10:27 PM
Ok, let me rephrase it. OKC's political and business leaders begged to get the Hornets.
No need to beg when you clearly were the best/only viable option.

badger
6/1/2008, 12:02 PM
:pop:

Crimsontothecore
6/1/2008, 07:19 PM
Well since the recession proof thing was by Forbes and this year and your livable thing was done by something I've never heard of and I have no idea when, I would say whatever.

I wouldn't necessarily brag about the tallest building in Oklahoma when it's an eye sore and quite old.

Tulsa is yesterday, OKC is now and the future.

Enjoy.
Well, if YOU'VE never heard of it then it couldn't possibly be legitimate.
Eye sore and quite old? I'm assuming your talking about the BOK tower because the CitiPlex towers in south Tulsa are breathtaking.

Crimsontothecore
6/1/2008, 07:20 PM
No need to beg when you clearly were the best/only viable option.
Simply the low bidder. a bargain basement price.

Crimsontothecore
6/1/2008, 07:23 PM
Tulsa is yesterday, OKC is now and the future.

.
Yeah, I heard that they might just give up on Tulsa and bull doze it all down and plant some corn. It will be easy since they don't have paved roads anyway.

Big Red Ron
6/1/2008, 11:42 PM
Well, if YOU'VE never heard of it then it couldn't possibly be legitimate.
Eye sore and quite old? I'm assuming your talking about the BOK tower because the CitiPlex towers in south Tulsa are breathtaking.Who published it there cool guy? Got a link for your claim?

badger
6/2/2008, 08:19 AM
Guys, quit yer whinin'. It's time for another update on SONICWATCH. Today's topics include the draft and a model for making the Sonics a better team in whatever market.

NewsOK: Copy the Spurs (http://newsok.com/sonics-have-a-plan-copy-the-spurs/article/3251700/?tm=1212383677)
NewsOK: Pick diamond-in-the-rough (http://newsok.com/sonics-will-try-to-pick-diamond-in-rough/article/3251665/?tm=1212383697)
Sorry, Aladdin's not in this year's draft :rolleyes:
HoopsWorld: Bayless still wants to play for the Sonics. (http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=8886)
News-Tribune: Prospects grab Sonics attention (http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/sonics/story/377040.html)

Not much new on SONICWATCH front. We are moving ever-closer to the draft, so this is likely the main focus... that we hear about. More than likely, the owners are setting up for the lawsuit trial beginning and this probably means we're going to draft a lemon. Sorry.

stoops the eternal pimp
6/2/2008, 08:47 AM
a week with no Starbucks..I m holding up well..draggin a little bit but I can make it. Don't see what any of this has to do with what the team is called, where its at, or anything else....


Besides errbody knows OKC and Tulsa are just trying to keep up with McAlester...check out our drive in

http://www.pinballrebel.com/drive/open/mc/mac3.jpg

stoops the eternal pimp
6/2/2008, 08:53 AM
And we have this

http://www.ocadp.org/news/images/chamber_caption.jpg

Big Red Ron
6/2/2008, 09:32 AM
And we have this

http://www.ocadp.org/news/images/chamber_caption.jpgheh

badger
6/2/2008, 09:34 AM
Dude, there are SO many Starbucks alternatives out there. I didn't say to give up coffee!

Can't we just agree that all of Oklahoma is awesome, regardless of what city you live in and move on?

Seattle P-I: Kemp helping Sonics with predraft (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/365308_sonx31.html)

Now would be a good time to ONCE AGAIN ATTEMPT TO STEER THE CONVERSATION AWAY FROM OKLAHOMA CIVIL WAR and refresh your memories on past Seattle stars. Like, for example, who is this "Kemp" guy... nah, that's boring. Who is the REAL "Kemp" that should be helping with predraft stuff?
http://alltalksports.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/kemp-and-payton.jpg
You can't post Shawn Kemp (#40) without posting about Gary Payton (#20). Kemp was a draft-aquired all-star power forward for the Sonics. He helped lead the Sonics to their most recent finals appearance and took on the notorious Dennis Rodman defensively (and lost) in... um, what year was that? I think it was three years before the lockout, so about 1996. Yes, counting back Bulls titles, Chicago beat the Sonics before beating Utah twice in '97 and '98, then the Spurs started winning in '99 after the lockout. Anyway, Kemp was a legend in Seattle, but that legend would die with an overweight appearance at training camp following the lockout. He was traded for another all-star (Vin Baker) in a three-team trade involving my beloved Milwaukee Bucks (hey, someone's gotta cheer for them).

Gary Payton was known as "The Glove" to those dedicated to his jackassery. He was a perennial defender whose best defensive traits include (1) being taller than most other guards at his position, and (2) talking trash until the other guy punches him and gets ejected. Oh, no, I'm not bitter that he left the Bucks hanging by only playing for us for a few months, causing us to lose Ray Allen. People say that he defended Jordan so well that they nearly came back from a 3-0 deficit in the Finals. I say everyone knows that the Bulls wanted to win at home and did everything possible to let the Sonics scrape by a few wins. Payton only wins a title by riding the Heat bench for Shaq and D-Wade :D

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/80/031_3269~Vin-Baker-Seattle-Posters.jpg
Vin Baker, at one time (yes, his Milwaukee time) was the all-around good guy you wanted your kids to look up to. He was the son of a preacher and even sang the national anthem before games at least once (pretty sure multiple times). He was also an all-star that made your team better. Unfortunately, he got depressed (I would like to blame the move from Milwaukee to Seattle as the ultimate depresser) and became an alcoholic. He was never the same after his Bucks glory days.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/ian_thomsen/07/05/allen/tx_ray.allen.jpg
Part of ensuring that the Sonics would get this many quality draft picks these past two drafts is Ray Allen. He was once traded to the Sonics from the Bucks for (argh!!!!!!!) a few months service of a dying Payton contract about to end (ARGH!!!!!!), so the Sonics definitely benefitted from this deal in both the short run and the long run. Allen was the face of their team for years after longtime stars Kemp, Payton and Baker bid farewell to Seattle... even if the team wasn't that successful with Allen.

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/IMG/kevin_durant-arton23665-290x290.jpg
Aren't whorns silly looking? Kevin Durant is the current star of the franchise. The Rookie of the Year and all that jazz. I am not sure how he feels about coming to Oklahoma (rather, the possibility of it - remember, lawsuits people!), but odds are, he didn't have enough of a chance to hate Oklahoma, nor did we have enough of a chance to develop a hatred of his whorn-ness. In fact, we can love him more for ignoring the student cries of "One more year!" which was later changed as per Barnes request to "Three more years!" Haha, silly whorns.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/pete_mcentegart/04/21/ten.spot/p1_schultz.jpg
Now HERE's a guy you can hate to love, or love to hate, or just hate altogether, regardless of what side you're on. This is former Sonics owner and Starbucks CEO Schultz pictured at a Sonics game. Coffee apparently gives you a big butt and a bad sense of style. You can hate to love him, because he sold the Sonics to an OKC businessman but is now trying to save face and get them back. You can love to hate him, because he opened the door for the Sonics moving by selling them to said OKC businessman, but still hate him for trying to ruin the plans by screaming "breach of contract." Or, you can just hate him for secretly funding the "Save our Sonics" fan drives. That last one is just an unaccredited rumor... that I just made up... three seconds ago.

stoops the eternal pimp
6/2/2008, 10:08 AM
I shall spek you forever for Vin Baker pics..

Shawn Kemp was my favorite post player back in the day..pre 300 lb Shawn Kemp

Big Red Ron
6/2/2008, 11:30 AM
Wasn't Kemp the first HS to NBA guy?

Big Red Ron
6/2/2008, 11:33 AM
Dude, there are SO many Starbucks alternatives out there. I didn't say to give up coffee!

Can't we just agree that all of Oklahoma is awesome, regardless of what city you live in and move on?

Seattle P-I: Shawn Kemp helping Sonics with predraft (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/365308_sonx31.html)

That story is about a guy named Kemp out of Nevada.

stoops the eternal pimp
6/2/2008, 12:15 PM
He was enrolled in college but did not play

Interesting note:

After graduation, Kemp signed a national letter-of-intent to play basketball at the University of Kentucky. However, he was kicked off the team before the season started for allegedly pawning a necklace belonging to teammate Sean Sutton. He transferred mid-season to Trinity Valley Community College in Texas, but was too late to suit up for the squad. Later, it was determined that Sutton had lost the necklace to Kemp in a card game.

also he fathered thirteen out-of-wedlock children with nine different women

badger
6/2/2008, 12:37 PM
Wasn't Kemp the first HS to NBA guy?

I believe the first on record was Moses Malone. The more recent pioneer was Kevin Garnett, who couldn't get the scores to get into Michigan. After that came many, many guys who had no business entering early that ended up in D-leagues across the world, LOLZ.

You're right... that was a headline created to get attention and it got mine. Sorry. Argh. Never trust the media ;)

EDIT: I take it back, I just looked it up and Malone was the fifth... he was the first of note, probably. Oh, and it was the ABA that he jumped to, not the NBA. Your answer is here:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipsa/A0765788.html

Like I said, Malone was the first of note. Kemp enrolled at Kentucky and Trinity Valley CC, so you can count him if you want, or not... but he still wasn't the first.

Crimsontothecore
6/2/2008, 09:33 PM
Who published it there cool guy? Got a link for your claim?

Here's one. Please take note of the opinion stated by your beloved Forbes.
http://www.mostlivable.org/general/tulsa-new-economy.html

Big Red Ron
6/2/2008, 10:31 PM
Here's one. Please take note of the opinion stated by your beloved Forbes.
http://www.mostlivable.org/general/tulsa-new-economy.htmlNeato, Tulsa is only the second biggest and best city in Oklahoma. Props.

Big Red Ron
6/2/2008, 10:34 PM
I believe the first on record was Moses Malone. The more recent pioneer was Kevin Garnett, who couldn't get the scores to get into Michigan. After that came many, many guys who had no business entering early that ended up in D-leagues across the world, LOLZ.

You're right... that was a headline created to get attention and it got mine. Sorry. Argh. Never trust the media ;)

EDIT: I take it back, I just looked it up and Malone was the fifth... he was the first of note, probably. Oh, and it was the ABA that he jumped to, not the NBA. Your answer is here:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipsa/A0765788.html

Like I said, Malone was the first of note. Kemp enrolled at Kentucky and Trinity Valley CC, so you can count him if you want, or not... but he still wasn't the first.
Ah, I guess he was the first HS to NBA "Superstar," I remember.

SoonerKnight
6/3/2008, 02:45 AM
OKC is bigger than Tulsa and is growing rapidly. I see OKC as a top ten city within only a couple of years oh and Tulsa WILL NOT have an NBA team.

:D

badger
6/3/2008, 02:35 PM
Oh, what wonderful Tulsa-bashing discussions we're having :)

:mad: I am once again trying to steer talks back to Sonics in this edition of SONICWATCH. I am sure the boys of South Oval would love a TULSAWATCH or OKCWATCH, however. If you're gonna trash Tulsa, please make sure to include something to do with the SONICS.

As we've discussed in the past, Tulsa is inferior to Oklahoma City... NO, WE DID NOT DISCUSS THAT. What we really discussed was how the Sonics have six draft picks, more than any other team in a draft where more teams have two picks. Once again, the draft deadline for underclassmen to opt out without an agent is June 16. The draft itself is June 26. Thus, two more weeks of underclassmen hype before reality sets in that there are SIXTY and NO MORE picks in the draft and only THIRTY, 3-0 picks with guaranteed contracts. The rest, you're out! Go D-League, go E-League (Europe?), but your best bet is the college ball!

Now, what will the Sonics do with said SIX picks? They have 10 percent of the entire draft right there! Well... they'll look to move...
ESPN: Draft movers? (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=draftnotes080603)

Remember, it was the draft dealin' that got them where they are now, so in the same effect, who else can they deal with to get complements for Durant?

Bleacher Report: Projected picks Bayless and Batum (http://www.bleacherreport.com/articles/26575-2008-NBA-Draft-the-Smart-Selections-010608)

Once again, I implore the Sonics to choose wisely, because the cup of Christ will bring eternal life, but the wrong cup will take it from you... actually, if they choose poorly, they'll be at the top next year to choose Blake Griffin :D It would be another feel-good NBA Draft story to go with Chicago's fawning over that Memphis froshie :rolleyes:

SoonerKnight
6/4/2008, 01:11 AM
All I got out of that was a :) and then a :mad: and then a :D and then a :rolleyes:.

Seriously I hope the future OKC_____ (Sonics) pick well as this will be the pride of the fans in Oklahoma having an NBA team in OKC. It would suck to end up having a suck team like Denver! Of course it will be better than the team Tulsa will have. :D



;)

Crimsontothecore
6/4/2008, 09:51 AM
Badger's right. This thread has digressed because I made a comment questioning how much long term support OKC would give an NBA team.
And now Big Red Ron has neg-speked me into reputation oblivion in response to me producing facts that negated his opinion of Tulsa. My wife saw those little orange dots and now she's thinking about taking the kids and leaving.

Crimsontothecore
6/4/2008, 09:52 AM
Of course it will be better than the team Tulsa will have. :D ;)
Actually, I'm not so sure the 66'ers wouldn't hold their own against the Sonics.

badger
6/4/2008, 10:11 AM
Good morning and here is your latest SONICWATCH.

Predictions for the upcoming trial (http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Sports/2008/06/03/sonics_trial_could_be_ugly_lawyer_says/5767/)

This Milwaukee J-S writing thinks an OKC move would be disasterous. (http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=758209)

And thus, there's going to be one ugly lawsuit this month AND an even weirder draft once the dust settles. Do we still want the Sonics? Thoughts...

Crimsontothecore
6/4/2008, 10:28 AM
Good morning and here is your latest SONICWATCH.

Predictions for the upcoming trial (http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Sports/2008/06/03/sonics_trial_could_be_ugly_lawyer_says/5767/)

This Milwaukee J-S writing thinks an OKC move would be disasterous. (http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=758209)

And thus, there's going to be one ugly lawsuit this month AND an even weirder draft once the dust settles. Do we still want the Sonics? Thoughts...

What did Hunt mean by this statement?
"Stern stood by and did absolutely nothing for a fabulous NBA city like Seattle on what will surely be a disastrous move to Oklahoma City."

badger
6/4/2008, 11:15 AM
What did Hunt mean by this statement?
"Stern stood by and did absolutely nothing for a fabulous NBA city like Seattle on what will surely be a disastrous move to Oklahoma City."

I don't think people outside Oklahoma expect us to succeed. This is why it is ESPECIALLY important to not start the Tulsa vs. OKC squabbling. Petty issues, like what the team will be named, how many home games you'll share with the city of Tulsa, or who pays what tax dollars and has a larger stake is not important. What is important is getting everyone, OKC, Tulsa, Tahlequah, Muskogee, Pryor, Lawton, Norman and even those sheep in Stilly behind the NBA team coming this year or the next.

The Seattle Supersonics, in case you are just tuning in, is the oldest major league professional team in Seattle and has years of experience in that area. That's why some writers think that it is a fabulous NBA city, like the one I linked. Images like this:
http://www.nancarrow-webdesk.com/warehouse/storage2/2008-w15/img.188381_t.jpg
and videos like this...
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nXtSsT2PFNI&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nXtSsT2PFNI&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Would make some forget that the Sonics had the 26th (out of 30) ranked (http://www.insidehoops.com/attendance.shtml)attendance in the league in 2006-2007. The same page I just linked that the NOKC Hornets in the same season was the 14th ranked, averaging more than 2,000 more fans per game. Stretch that over 80 games (or if you want to play devil's advocate, over the 40 games that were played in either New Orleans or Oklahoma City) and you have a serious difference. I could not find any article citing this, but I've heard that Seattle was 28th of 30 this past season that finally comes to an end next week.

Now, bullshizzle studies like this (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2008/03/is-okc-viable-nba-market.html) will point out how much more viable cities like Seattle are, being 41-year hosts to the team and all. Alas, the host's home has the smallest capacity in the league, as that article linked in this graf states.

Now, Seattle has some fun arguments (http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/sonics/2008/02/save_our_sonics_letter_to_nba.html)for keeping the team. For example, did you know that Seattle is bigger and has higher incomes than little ol' OKC? They also point out how they are the 14th largest market and OKC is the 45th.

(let's just rinse and repeat these arguments a few dozen more times, shall we, Seattle?)

Now, not knocking the big scary market, sky high income levels and 41-year history. We here in Oklahoma love tradition and our teams, whether they be OU football or (cringe inducing smile) OSU wrestling. However, aside from the 41-year history, we look to LA, the city of angels, Los Angeles itself, to see what the largest city in the country that has far more richy rich people than Seattle and OKC combined...

NFL: Los Angeles sucks. Avoid it like the plague. Move to Oakland, or better yet, St. Louis. Missouri, here we come!

There you have it. Population and income alone do not determine the most viable market for a major league team.

Now, we give you one more benefit of the doubt - nobody likes a loser, right?

THIS YEAR'S OUR YEAR! THIS YEAR'S OUR YEAR!

As it turns out, we are in the same league as BoSox and Cubbie fans for lovable losers. When we got the Hornets, they were tied for the second-worst in the league - 18-64 record. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans_Hornets#2002-2004:_NBA_Returns_to_the_Big_Easy) Yet, we turned out to the tune of 18,000+ fans per game.

So, losers or not, rich or poor, insanely populated or not, Seattle, your only claim to the Sonics at this point is a 41-year history. Seeing how you can approve a new stadium for your Seahawks and Mariners, but not your oldest franchise, you deserve to be ranked the ninth worst fans in the country (http://www.bleacherreport.com/articles/23675-The-Top-Ten-Worst-Fans-In-All-of-Sports). Why not higher?

In conclusion, STAND UNITED, Oklahoma. This is our revenge to the West Coast for the Dust Bowl, because everyone in Seattle probably moved from California anyways, or at least that's what my relatives out there are saying. WE as a STATE are going to get this team so long as Seattle doesn't stop US. :D

Crimsontothecore
6/4/2008, 01:06 PM
Badger, You are right on about the support thing. My original point (before Big Red Ron turned it into OKC vs Tulsa) was that, given the circumstances, I think it would be smart on the part of OKC to not alienate the rest of the state by making all the "It's OUR team" statements. It sounds arrogant. Regardless of whether people want to admit it, The support given to the Hornets is not proof positive that OKC will support an NBA team long-term. The key words are LONG-TERM.
It was easy to support the Hornets because it was a temporary situation and they were the first NBA team to ever call Oklahoma home, if even for a moment.
There was a novelty about the situation and people wanted to be a part of it while it lasted. People also forget that the ticket prices for those Hornets games were the cheapest in all of the NBA.
When the new wears off and having a team is old hat, Will OKC still fill that arena? Maybe, but most likely not. Seattle is four times larger than OKC as is New Orleans. So what makes OKC think they will be immune to failing support?
Slam Tulsa all you want but the fact is it's the second largest city in the state and being only a hundred miles up the turnpike could make a big difference in how many empty seats the ford center has in the years to come.

GrapevineSooner
6/4/2008, 04:59 PM
And we have this

http://www.ocadp.org/news/images/chamber_caption.jpg

The eternal day spa for permanent rest and relaxation.

GrapevineSooner
6/4/2008, 05:08 PM
What did Hunt mean by this statement?
"Stern stood by and did absolutely nothing for a fabulous NBA city like Seattle on what will surely be a disastrous move to Oklahoma City."

Could be referencing those emails from Bennett that contradicted his earlier statements that his ownership group acted in good faith to keep the team in Seattle. Which Stern didn't really do anything about.

If I was a Sonics fan, I'd probably see Clay Bennett and that ownership group as nothing more than a bunch of snake oil salesmen. Even if the team is hemorrhaging money with that Key Arena Lease.

Dio
6/4/2008, 11:18 PM
Good God, Crimson, we get it. You hate any suggestion that OKC could possibly have an advantage over Tulsa in any way shape or form and think we're going to fall on our faces. Enjoy your hills and trees and STFU already.

SoonerKnight
6/4/2008, 11:20 PM
Seattle with their big incomes and 41 year team history found it hard to support a new arena for the Sonics. They didn't want to pay the taxes. Being from Oklahoma I have found that most people believe if you buy something you should use it. I believe that Oklahomans will support their team because there is pride in what the city has accomplished. The ticket price may go up but have you bought a ticket to see the Sooners play football it isn't all that cheap.

Oklahoma City has changed a lot since I was a kid and downtown was a place to avoid not have a good time at. I mean I remember when the baseball team was the 89ers and had that crappy stadium now they call themselves the red hawks and they have a really nice stadium.

When the Hornets played in OKC they not only sold out the games but the minor league basketball team also sold out their games on the same night. OKC has the best fan support for it's minor league teams. Why would the tax payers pay for a new arena and approve a tax increase for a practice facility then not support a major team franchise like they have supported the minor teams?

Dio
6/4/2008, 11:20 PM
This Milwaukee J-S writing thinks an OKC move would be disasterous. (http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=758209)



Anybody else notice the tard who wrote this piece of crap is named Mike Hunt?

Crimsontothecore
6/4/2008, 11:30 PM
Good God, Crimson, we get it. You hate any suggestion that OKC could possibly have an advantage over Tulsa in any way shape or form and think we're going to fall on our faces. Enjoy your hills and trees and STFU already.

This has nothing to do with one city against the other and I never said it did. I stated my opinion clearly but you're obviously too simple minded to grasp it.
If you can't contribute anything intelligent then just stick your fingers in your ears and go LA, LA, LA, LA, LA.
Now, STFU!

Crimsontothecore
6/4/2008, 11:39 PM
The ticket price may go up but have you bought a ticket to see the Sooners play it isn't all that cheap.
Well, Sooner b-ball tickets are much cheaper than the average NBA ticket but Lloyd Noble is over half empty for most games, and OU pride goes back generations in this state. Just another reason to question how well an NBA team will do once the new wears off.

SoonerKnight
6/5/2008, 12:13 AM
Well, Sooner b-ball tickets are much cheaper than the average NBA ticket but Lloyd Noble is over half empty for most games, and OU pride goes back generations in this state. Just another reason to question how well an NBA team will do once the new wears off.

What about selling out two arena's downtown. OU is a football school and having an actual NBA team will get the love and respect that it deserves.

Big Red Ron
6/5/2008, 12:17 AM
Keep up or be consistant newb.

Badger's right. This thread has digressed because I made a comment questioning how much long term support OKC would give an NBA team.



Badger, You are right on about the support thing. My original point (before Big Red Ron turned it into OKC vs Tulsa) was that, given the circumstances, I think it would be smart on the part of OKC to not alienate the rest of the state by making all the "It's OUR team" statements.

BTW you'r grey spek jihad is just killing me. I love a good laugh.:D

BTW it is our team but there'll be pleanty of tulsan's driving down the pike to watch our team. Enjoy.

Big Red Ron
6/5/2008, 12:19 AM
What did Hunt mean by this statement?
"Stern stood by and did absolutely nothing for a fabulous NBA city like Seattle on what will surely be a disastrous move to Oklahoma City."sour grapes?

Big Red Ron
6/5/2008, 12:22 AM
Seattle is four times larger than OKC as is New Orleans.New Orleans is smaller than OKC, but don't let facts get in the way of a good lie.

SoonerKnight
6/5/2008, 01:01 AM
Here are some facts:

The Census Bureau in July 2006 estimated the population of New Orleans to be 223,000; a subsequent study estimated that 32,000 additional residents had moved to the city as of March 2007, bringing the estimated population to 255,000, approximately 56% of the pre-Katrina population level. Another estimate, based on data on utility usage from July 2007, estimated the population to be approximately 274,000, or 60% of the pre-Katrina population. These estimates are somewhat smaller than a third estimate, based on mail delivery records, from the Greater New Orleans Community Data Center in June 2007, which indicated that approximately two-thirds of the pre-Katrina population had returned to the city.[22]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans,_Louisiana


Oklahoma City is the capital of the U.S. state of Oklahoma. The county seat of Oklahoma County,[3] the city is the 30th largest in the United States[4] The city's estimated population as of 2006 was 537,734[1], with a 2006 estimated population of 1,192,989[2] in the metropolitan area. In 2007, the Oklahoma City-Shawnee Combined Statistical Area had a population of 1,262,027 residents.[5] Besides Oklahoma County, the city extends into Canadian, Cleveland, and Pottawatomie counties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City,_Oklahoma

New Orleans never had the population of OKC!!! They are a major port city!

Crimsontothecore
6/5/2008, 08:35 AM
Badger, You need to let Big Red Ron take over with the sonic updates. He just informed me that there are only 10 people alive that know more about the Sonic situation than he does. According to Ron, The fact that he has nearly 10,000 posts on this OU message board impressed Clay Bennett enough that he decided to take Ron into his inner circle. So you see Badger, your measly 6,000+ posts don't qualify you to give us updates.

badger
6/5/2008, 08:35 AM
well, I'll be back when the dust settles, boys.
:pop:

Crimsontothecore
6/5/2008, 08:40 AM
New Orleans is smaller than OKC, but don't let facts get in the way of a good lie.
Yeah, kinda like your 'Facts" about the crime rate and income statistics of Tulsa vs OKC huh?

Big Red Ron
6/5/2008, 08:57 AM
Yeah, kinda like your 'Facts" about the crime rate and income statistics of Tulsa vs OKC huh?
Exactly


Here are some facts:

The Census Bureau in July 2006 estimated the population of New Orleans to be 223,000; a subsequent study estimated that 32,000 additional residents had moved to the city as of March 2007, bringing the estimated population to 255,000, approximately 56% of the pre-Katrina population level. Another estimate, based on data on utility usage from July 2007, estimated the population to be approximately 274,000, or 60% of the pre-Katrina population. These estimates are somewhat smaller than a third estimate, based on mail delivery records, from the Greater New Orleans Community Data Center in June 2007, which indicated that approximately two-thirds of the pre-Katrina population had returned to the city.[22]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans,_Louisiana

BTW, there are a few people on this board that know who I am in real life. I don't brag on message boards. Stop sending pm's and I'll quit straightening you out.

Badger does a great job, keep up the reports. I enjoy them after reading the local paper.

Crimson, just stop with the pms and all this crap. You look like an idiot.

Crimsontothecore
6/5/2008, 09:13 AM
Exactly



BTW, there are a few people on this board that know who I am in real life. I don't brag on message boards. Stop sending pm's and I'll quit straightening you out.

Badger does a great job, keep up the reports. I enjoy them after reading the local paper.

Crimson, just stop with the pms and all this crap. You look like an idiot.
Let's talk "facts' again pal. It was YOU who started sending ME pm's. I have only responded to what you initiated.
Yep, I'm sure you are a really impressive guy in real life.:rolleyes:

Big Red Ron
6/5/2008, 09:23 AM
Let's talk "facts' again pal. It was YOU who started sending ME pm's. I have only responded to what you initiated.
Yep, I'm sure you are a really impressive guy in real life.:rolleyes:
OK, now that you've just become a total annoyance. I've just added you to my ignore list. I suggest you do the same.

Back to the updates Badger...I'm sorry I had to straighten out this dipstick. Better yet, how about you start a new one. Promise I won't respond to the new guy.

stoops the eternal pimp
6/5/2008, 09:27 AM
Nothing to see here people...Move along!

So Badger, you were saying....

badger
6/5/2008, 09:57 AM
Oh, fine, Ron (and eternal pimp!). I'm back - since you said you read your local paper and all, and since pimp asked :D

Anyways, in this edition of SONICWATCH, we try once again to steer all conversations toward SONICS and not anything else. Need I remind you how many people are out to make sure that there is an NBA team nowhere in the state of Oklahoma in the near future?

We start with Gus Williams. Who the hell is Gus Williams?!
Seattle P-I: He's an Ex-Sonics star that doesn't want the Sonics to move. (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/365846_trialbar05.html)

The fun thing about ex-stars in leagues like the NBA where EVERYONE is a star (remember Christian Laettner? He was an all-star despite a journeyman's career) and EVERYONE is an overachiever (remember how Dennis Rodman was credited for his awesome defense doing absolutely nothing but go after rebounds?) and EVERYONE is a star even before they're drafted (omg Michael Beasley, Derrick Rose and OJ Mayo! OMG!). If Tim Hardaway's case proves anything, it's that you're a has-been after you're done playing, and you're a P.O.S. if you try to do anything to get back in the headlines.

Back to Sonics now. The owners, who I remind you, are on Oklahoma's side, have a fun defense against the upcoming lawsuit...

NewsOK: It's baseless! (http://newsok.com/sonics-owners-deny-claims-call-lawsuit-baseless/article/3253067/?tm=1212636680)

Fortunately, once it really is found "baseless," Seattle will have something to fall back on...

Seattle Times: SOCCER! (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2004457784_taso05.html)

Once again, here at SONICWATCH, we should deal with facts, facts like "The Sonics ranked 26th and 28th during the past two seasons in attendance, whereas OKC and New Orleans ranked in the top half of the league with at least two thousands more fans than Seattle averaged each game" and not just emotions and opinions like the one this picture conveys:
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4275/sosud7.jpg
Ok, so that picture is actually kind of funny, because it depicts how empty their stands usually are :D:D:D:D

But what the city of Seattle is pulling is damaging the business opportunties of the Sonics...
NewsOK: So dysfunctional. (http://newsok.com/sonics-owners-say-their-relationship-with-seattle-dysfunctional/article/3253065/?tm=1212635961)
and the city and press of Seattle clearly think they have a chance of winning...
Seattle P-I: Battle plans for trial! (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/365832_trial05.html)

So, what do neighboring Trailblazers think? Rather than make you read all of this (http://www.blazersedge.com/2008/6/4/546165/interview-with-mike-golub), here's the part you might be interested in:

If you asked us at any point in the process, over 40 years of tradition, 40 years of a franchise existing up the road, a great rivalry, a great tradition, a city like Seattle, the caliber of the city, the size of the city, they should be home to an NBA team. Especially given the long legacy that the Sonics have. We voted against the move.

We're in a special situation vis a vis Seattle. In an ideal world, they would get the arena they feel they need to compete and they would stay. And we would continue our rivalry. But it looks like its unraveling. It looks like a matter of when they will leave.

On one level that's very sad and disappointing. On another level, we've got to be pragmatists and say, "OK, if they ultimately leave, what does that mean for the Trailblazers?" Can we distribute our games on broadcast? Can the Blazers be to Seattle what the Seahawks and Mariners are to Portlanders? A lot of their audience, especially the Seahawks, because it's less of a commitment. Over time, could we become that? Could we begin to draw from there? Could we take sponsorship deals and make them more regional?

Yes, yes and yes. It represents some opportunities for us should the Sonics leave and we are looking at that and we would be silly not to. We have mixed emotions about that whole situation.
This just in: If Oklahoma loses the Sooners, how quickly can we get Poke football across the state via broadcast? Bwahahahahahaha. You expect a "rival" of sorts, THEIR fanbase, to start cheering you guys on?

Then again, Portland's the only show in town now...
NewsOK: One-team towns (http://newsok.com/sonics-checklist-one-team-market/article/3251704/?tm=1212378112)

But, through all this squabbling (oh, the irony), remember that there's a very important draft coming up. Here, from Warrrrrshington media, is the outlook:
News-Trib: Sonics look at potential picks (http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/story/373483.html)

Once again, your reminder of important dates to keep in mind as you watch the Sonics at SONICWATCH...

June 16: Last day for silly underclassmen to give up their NBA hoop dreams and return to college drudgery, so long as they haven't signed their con-artist agent and his runner yet.

June 24: Draft day! The Sonics have six picks out of the 60 total picks - 30 first rounders with a guaranteed money contract, 30 second rounders that will have rights tied to a specific team, but no guaranteed money contract.

Draft rules:
1- The first 30 picks , or first round, must be signed to a two-year contract, guaranteed. The team has the option of a third and fourth year. All picks have a sliding scale of how much money they will make, thus ensuring more bucks for veterans and not draft players.

2- The next 30 picks, or second round, guarantees a team the rights to a player for three years, but they don't have to sign him to a contract.

3- The Sonics, through the magical ping pong balls, got the No. 4 pick in the "lottery," or first 14 picks of the draft. This denotes the teams that didn't make the playoffs (or traded picks with a team that didn't make the playoffs).

4- The Sonics also have five other picks of the 60. Overall, they have picks #4, #24, #32, #46, #50 and #56. A complete list can be seen here (http://nbadraft.net/).

Draft history:
2007: Kevin Durant, Carl Landry (Purdue), Glen Davis (LSeaux)
2005: Johan Petro (No. 25 overall)
2004: Robert Swift (No. 12)
2003: Nick Collison (No. 12)
2003: Luke Ridnour (No. 14)
2001: Vladimir Radmanovic (No. 12)
2000: Desmond Mason (No. 17)
1999: Corey Maggette (No. 13)
1998: Vladimir Stepania (No. 27)
1997: Bobby Jackson
1995: Sherell Ford
1994: Carlos Rogers
1993: Ervin Johnson
1992: Doug Christie
1991: Rich King
1990: Gary Payton
1989: Dana Barros
1989: Shawn Kemp
1988: Gary Grant
1987: Scottie Pippen
1987: Derrick McKey
1985: Xavier McDaniel
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I'll leave analysis of these picks for another day (not saying you can't though). I think there's some significant draft successes in there, but also some abysmal judgment calls. Till next time...

Frozen Sooner
6/5/2008, 10:35 AM
I believe the first on record was Moses Malone. The more recent pioneer was Kevin Garnett, who couldn't get the scores to get into Michigan. After that came many, many guys who had no business entering early that ended up in D-leagues across the world, LOLZ.

You're right... that was a headline created to get attention and it got mine. Sorry. Argh. Never trust the media ;)

EDIT: I take it back, I just looked it up and Malone was the fifth... he was the first of note, probably. Oh, and it was the ABA that he jumped to, not the NBA. Your answer is here:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipsa/A0765788.html

Like I said, Malone was the first of note. Kemp enrolled at Kentucky and Trinity Valley CC, so you can count him if you want, or not... but he still wasn't the first.

Excellent job of research here, and good job pointing out that Kemp enrolled in JC before declaring for the draft. In fact, his pre-game introduction always had him as coming from Trinity Valley Community College.

This is also a good spot to mention Darryl Dawkins, who left after Moses Malone, but had much cooler nicknames for his dunks and declared himself to be from the planet "Lovetron."

badger
6/5/2008, 11:13 AM
Ok, let just cut to the chase and get the Draft analysis started to continue steering the conversation away from Oklahoma rivalries, lolz :D

To follow along, check ESPN.com's draft home for lengthier team histories on draftin'. I'm just listing top picks, not to discredit the second and later rounds or anything :D

Draft history:
2007: Kevin Durant :D, Carl Landry :( (Purdue), Glen Davis :((LSeaux)
Let's just overview all the picks of last year since we have sooooo many picks this year first. Not much else needs to be said about Durant, who was Rookie of the Year for his outstanding play. Landry was traded to the Rockets and (reading of Wiki here) lost a tooth in the first round of the playoffs. Ok, obviously noteable! Glen Davis was known as "Big Baby" and also noteable for preventing his coach from getting fired for a few years at LSU (or perhaps, because of Davis' success at LSU, raised expectations to impossibilities?) but was traded immediately to the Celtics in big huge trade involving Ray Allen and such to get all the picks this year. Davis and Landry really shouldn't be missed. I'm sure Davis would have reconsidered jumping to the draft had he known he would fall to the second round :rolleyes:

2005: Johan Petro :mad:(No. 25 overall)
Ummm... he's a 7' center and he's French?? Not much else to say. He averages six points (wooot.) and a measley five rebounds. He's one of these players that you cut after that guaranteed contract runs out, or after you find a suitable replacement.

2004: Robert Swift :mad:(No. 12)
Look at his pic:
http://mynba.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/265236195_064f763f2a1.jpg
Someone needs to beg for a minor role in Semi-Pro's sequel :rolleyes: He suffered a Jason White signature ACL in 2006, averages less than a point and less than a rebound and less than a block per game. Did I mention he's a center? He's one of these players that probably should have gone to college but didn't... even if his choice of college was USC.

2003: Nick Collison :D(No. 12)
Dude's a power forward from Kansas. College jumpers take note - he played all four years. He's a solid role player for the Sonics with nearly 10 ppg and 9.4 rpg. What a difference a college career makes :rolleyes: Anyway, Collison can be graded a GOOD draft player, so I'm going to put a smiley face next to his name! In fact, I'm gonna go back and do that for Durant.

2003: Luke Ridnour :((No. 14)
Should be endearing to Oklahoma for shunning the poor University of Oregon fans. They allegedly chanted "ONE MORE YEAR" at the Pac-10 player of the year junior so long the game had to stop... and he left for the NBA anyways. Way to go, Luke! :D He's a wannabe Steve Nash that doesn't play defense and only scores 6.4 ppg and dishes only 4 apg. I'll give him a frowny because I don't think he's meeting expectations and they'll look to replace him this draft.

2001: Vladimir Radmanovic :)(No. 12)
The Serbian small forward was a solid 11 ppg and 4 rpg, but didn't log as many minutes as he wanted and signed elsewhere when his rookie contract ended. After playing for the Clips, he's now with the Lakers. Good draft choice, but no longer with the team.

2000: Desmond Mason :) (No. 17)
The Sonics have had two blockbuster trades recently - last year's trading away Ray Allen et al, and this one involving Mason and fellow star Gary Payton to the Bucks to acquire Allen in the first place. He also had a little bit of time in OKC when with the Hornets briefly, but is now back with the Bucks. A solid player and draft choice (even if he's a Poke) that became the first Sonic to win the dunkin' contest.

1999: Corey Maggette :)(No. 13)
Maggette was one of the Dookies that forever changed Duke basketball by jumping off the Duke bandwagon and basketball team for the draft after only one year. The Sonics traded him right away to the Magic and he later went to the Clips. The Sonics made the correct draft choice, but made the wrong personnel decision to trade him right away, as he is a solid 20 ppg forward for the Clips now.

1998: Vladimir Stepania :((No. 27)
I don't think he plays anymore, but his last stop was in Portland. Not much to expect out of a late first rounder, I guess, but still, didn't do much for the four teams he played for. Had a few career days, but every player does.

1997: Bobby Jackson :)
Now with the Rockets, but NBA fans out there would probably remember him better as "the guy they put in around the fourth quarter for the Kings because hotshot Jason 'White Chocolate' Williams shot too many stupid three's and dishes too many off-target behind the back passes." Lolz. Jackson was recently with the Hornets, so OKC fans would remember him. He was a good (and dependable) player, so a good draft choice.

1995: Sherell Ford :mad:
Played only one season. With the Sonics. And in the NBA. Yes, that bad.

1994: Carlos Rogers
I'll leave this guy without a grade because I remember his touching story well - his sister decided she would rather have her brother make the NBA than have his kidney. She died shortly after the Sonics drafted him. On his playing career, he lasted eight years and played for several teams, none of which (if my online sources are correct) were the Sonics.

1993: Ervin Johnson
Outstanding player for the Lakers that could play all five positions and will be remembered as one of the 50 Greatest in the NBA's history despite getting the AIDS... that was lame of me. Lolz at Ervin "I'm not Magic" Johnson. I remember seeing him at the NBA Finals versus the Bulls, and he matched up well against their centers... which is not saying anything to his credit at all. The NBA had a time around the 90s where the guards were everything (especially those with initials M and J) and the centers were not ALL THAT GOOD anymore. There were few notable exceptions to this, like Ewing, Hakeem, D-Rob and Shaq. Ervin was not an exception, but he wasn't bad, either. Let's leave him neutral like Rogers.

1992: Doug Christie :)
We'll blame Seattle managment and the ones in charge of drafting on this one that got away. Became a top defender and three point shooter when with the Kings, but never played for the Sonics because of a contract dispute. Those were the days, eh? I still remember when the Bucks tried hard to sign Glenn Robinson for less than $100 million. Fortunately, this is one of the few and far between areas where the NBA is better than the NFL.

1991: Rich King :(
Averaged 1.9 ppg in four seasons with the Sonics. More should be expected out of a No. 14 pick, even if that wasn't a lottery pick back then (there were fewer teams). Well, at least he had a cool name.

1990: Gary Payton :D
I hate this guy's style of play, I hate his arrogance, I hate the way his jaw angles in a cocky smile when on his outstanding defense, I hate the way that fathered Jr. out of wedlock and hate how he named the one from his wife Payton II. I hate how he left the Sonics for the Bucks when his contract was expiring (but again, a very good deal for the Sonics), I hate how he jumped to the Lakers to get a title, I hate how he jumped again to the Heat and got the title. I hate how "The Glove" could be so great because of his height advantage. I hate how your bald head shined off the KeyArena lights, but what I hate most is how Seattle didn't hate you at all, not one bit, for all the success you brought the franchise. And those, Glove, are the 10 Things I Hate About You.

1989: Dana Barros :(
Who? Oh, according to Wiki, he was Payton's backup for the four seasons in Seattle. Not much else to say, except that he played for 15 seasons for many teams.

1989: Shawn Kemp :D
I'll make this short, since you've all heard of him and he's been discussed before. All-star forward, a force to be reckoned with all all. Got fat, got traded, got out of the league. A very strong asset to the Sonics and a very good draft choice - can you believe he was No. 17 overall? Barros (see above) was No. 16 overall, so I guess he doesn't count in that argument, but 15 other non-Sonic picks before him. I bet a lot of teams want a do-over on 1989. His non-college probably hurt his draft stock, but No. 1 was non-all-star Pervis Ellison :rolleyes:

1988: Gary Grant :(
Who? Another draft-and-trade move for the Sonics. This No. 15-overal ended up in Europe, where he had a solid career... but not much to say about his time in the league.

1987: Scottie Pippen :D
Dear LORD, what were the Sonics thinking?! The Bulls traded for Pippen and the Sonics got... Olden Polynice. This is another blunder that falls on management, not those responsible for the draft, so we'll give the Sonics a draft smiley here, but this move was ridiculously off-the-charts bad. However, as a Bucks fan, I will remember Pippen as a whiner that pulled his "Sitting Bull" act when he didn't get the game-winning shot called for him. He ended up with the Jail Blazers in that era of signing a bunch of aging high priced stars. But, back with the Bulls to finish his career.

1987: Derrick McKey :)
I'll give him a smiley, but I should note that McKey was drafted before Reggie Miller, Horace Grant and Reggie Lewis. Was immediately a solid player for the Sonics upon arrival, averaging nearly 16 ppg.

1985: Xavier McDaniel :)
I'm not gonna go beyond Xavier, because this is the last guy on that list that is really notable and my hoop knowledge ends about the year I was born (which, btw, was exactly 20 years after MJ himself was born, for the record). He was a solid player for the Sonics and is still cherished in Seattle despite getting traded after six seasons.
---
I might go back and do a few second rounders later. Thoughts?

stoops the eternal pimp
6/5/2008, 11:13 AM
I was such a Reign Man fan I knew pretty much everything about the guy except for the fact Sean Sutton is the reason he didn't end up at Kentucky.

Badger that list of draft picks looks about as the list of Chicago Bears QBs after Jim McMahon...Some of those guys were darn good but not for Seattle

1991...Wasn't Rich King that 7'1 or 2 guy from Nebraska?

I liked Dana Barros shooting the 3..

Ervin Johnson...I remember Karl would start Johnson and or McIlvaine at Center, they would play 3 or 4 minutes and then ride pine for the rest of the game pretty much..never understand why he started them in the first place

One of my favorite other Sonics...the WindexMan

http://www.checkoutmycards.com/CardImages/Cards/008/008/03F.jpg

Frozen Sooner
6/5/2008, 11:54 AM
STEP-you may be jealous to know that my first ever live NBA game was game 6 of the 1993 Western Conference finals. Kemp. Payton. Barkley. Marjele.

Good stuff. Sonics ran them off the court.

stoops the eternal pimp
6/5/2008, 12:09 PM
Holy Carp dude..you caught about half of my all time favorites in one game.....let me think of some of the guys that probably played in that one

Sam Perkins...big smooth...you know that dude lit up the bong before the big game

Kevin Johnson...Somehow forgotten over the years...

Mar-jelly as I used to call him....game 4 or 5 he set the record for 3's with 8 in a game

Friggin Tom Chambers.....Eddie Johnson....Ricky Pierce.....Cedric Ceballos...Nate McMillan...The Big O Oliver Miller...Richard Dumas in one of his non cracked out years

KJ vs the Glove....Kemp vs Barkley...Now I'm all friggin giddy

Frozen Sooner
6/5/2008, 12:14 PM
Yeah, it was pretty amazing. Don't forget that Magic Johnson was also on the floor as a color commentator for NBC. :D

Big Smooth was definitely high a lot of the time. He used to do a show on KUBE-FM called the "Big Smooth Power Hour" and I swear you could hear people doing bong hits while he was on-air.

Anyhow, the next year the Sonics acquired Etlef (no D in my name or my game) Schrempf and Kendall Gill, managed to choke away a 2-0 series lead vs. the Nuggests in round one after posting one of the best records ever...and the rest is history.

stoops the eternal pimp
6/5/2008, 12:22 PM
Yeah....I still despise Mutumbo to this day for that series....

stoops the eternal pimp
6/5/2008, 12:25 PM
I tried to mimic his flat footed 3 point shot and I was able to get pretty good at it but my coaches made me give it up

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/images/basketball/nba/players/pacers/261.jpg

Dio
6/5/2008, 12:35 PM
This has nothing to do with one city against the other and I never said it did. I stated my opinion over and over and over again but you're obviously too bored to listen to me jack myself off one more time.
If you can't stand me tirelessly beating the dead horse that is my lame, ill-conceived opinion into the ground, then just add me to your ignore list and neg me a few more times.
Now, bring me a tissue!

Fixed, and done.

stoops the eternal pimp
6/5/2008, 12:43 PM
and then later a savior would come to try and deliver the team a championship...His name...David Wingate...oh and he brought Hersey Hawkins too

badger
6/5/2008, 04:39 PM
Yay, real discussion! :D

SONICWATCH now tributes the year 1979...

- This is the last year you can be born in to be considered a Generation X'er. After that, BOOMERANG GENERATION, Baby! :D

Or Generation Y. That's more boring :rolleyes:

- Margaret Thatcher, heroine to Republicans worldwide, becomes Brit's prime minister :D

- JP2, Pope John Paul II, visits native Poland, which has turned communist, thus he is the first pope to ever visit a communist country.

-Jimmy Carter is still a loser :rolleyes:

-Susan B. Anthony becomes a failure in her own right for trying to become a popular dollar... unfortunately, we are not Canada and don't like our dollars in coins.

-The great Iran Hostage Crisis, proving that Carter is a wussy and doesn't have as powerful friends as future prez Reagan and original Bush.

-China and U.S. make relations good again! China reaches 1 billion people! China subsequently tells its people to stop having so many d@mn kids by making the one-child policy.

-Red scare at all-time high, but if communism doesn't scare you, perhaps the Klan scare will! If that doesn't scare you, the gay scare will ("gay scare?!" ok, that just sounds stupid). There are many reasons to be scared this year!

- That is, unless you are a Sonics fan. This is, to date, the only championship that Sonics have won. The closest time they have come since is 1996, losing to Jordan-led Chicago Bulls 4-2 in the finals. However, it should also be noted that they were never close to winning this series.

So here's to you, 1979.

The Supersonics: Losing Seattle's interest since 1979.

The Sonics: Moving closer to Oklahoma City ever since Hurricane Katrina.

The Sonic Boomers: Worst name suggested for a franschise since anything suggested by the WNBA.

The Thunderbirds: LONG LIVE NBA IN OKLAHOMA!

stoops the eternal pimp
6/5/2008, 04:56 PM
1979 Seattle featured one mister Dennis Johnson, who go on to be a thorn in my Laker loving side later on in his career..RIP DJ

http://www.nba.com/media/sonics/78-79_Team(600).jpg

Sooner_Havok
6/5/2008, 07:22 PM
Yay, real discussion! :D


What, saying Tulsa sucks is discussion :D

It doesn't by the way.

Hell, I don't even like basketballs and I am getting excited about us joining the big leagues finally :cool:

CORNholio
6/5/2008, 07:42 PM
I think the NBA will work in OKC because it brings us out of the darkness of obscurity. People will be proud to have a pro sports team to support. It takes along time for something like that to wear off around here. That alone is enough motivation in this neck of the woods. The opportunity to see national celebrities such as Kobe and Shaq when they come to town is also a huge motivating factor right there. Heaven forbid if the team is actually good or if they ever draft a local sports icon. (I would love to see Najera traded from Denver)

Naming the team OKC something is also not a jab at any town outside of the area. I cannot understand how this would be an issue. I would support a pro team if it was located in Tulsa regardless of the name. It is a pro team located in my area.

Big Red Ron
6/5/2008, 07:43 PM
What, saying Tulsa sucks is discussion :D

It doesn't by the way.

:cool:
Tulsa doesn't suck. It's just not in the big leagues like OKC. ;)

badger
6/5/2008, 10:10 PM
Tulsa doesn't suck. It's just not in the big leagues like OKC. ;)

(slaps Ron)
STOP IT!

Big Red Ron
6/5/2008, 10:13 PM
(slaps Ron)
STOP IT!;) sorry. have some green.

badger
6/5/2008, 10:26 PM
;) sorry. have some green.

Anytime you have a inkling of a sense to shizzle on Tulsa for ANY reason, I want you bite your tongue... oh wait, this is a message board. Ok, bite your fingers. And when your fingers feel numb from all the pain, just think about how happy you are to live in the great state of Oklahoma and all that its fabulous cities have to offer.

Ok, now you may stop biting. :D

Big Red Ron
6/5/2008, 10:27 PM
Anytime you have a inkling of a sense to shizzle on Tulsa for ANY reason, I want you bite your tongue... oh wait, this is a message board. Ok, bite your fingers. And when your fingers feel numb from all the pain, just think about how happy you are to live in the great state of Oklahoma and all that its fabulous cities have to offer.

Ok, now you may stop biting. :D
I know, I know, stating the obvious is boring reading. :D

badger
6/6/2008, 11:48 AM
Good morning and welcome to another edition of SONICWATCH, where the only thing more exciting than a trial is a pre-trial, which is set to begin today...

News-Trib: Pretrial news (http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/story/382158.html)

Besides, with all this litigation, is a move really necessary?
NewsOK: No, a Sonic move is not necessary despite all that OKC tax money (http://newsok.com/former-owners-contend-sonics-dont-have-to-move/article/3253575/?tm=1212720734)

But Schultz should just shut up, because isn't there a statute of limitations on former owner's rights?
Seattle P-I: Too late, loser! (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/366045_trial06.html)

But even if neither side comes out ahead and loses a lot of money, you can still make money!
Seattle P-I: Bet on the Sonics outcome. (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/moore/366015_moore06.html)

But remember, Oklahoma basketball fans - there are some cities out there that have no hope of getting an NBA franchise, so even if there's a chance we won't, there's still a chance!
The Pitch (Kansas City): We have no chance in hell. (http://blogs.pitch.com/plog/2008/06/basketball_death_and_a_sonic_m.php)

Until next time, you will be beyonce slapped by a real, live beyonce every time you insult a fellow Oklahoma city. Later!

Dio
6/6/2008, 12:42 PM
NewsOK: No, a Sonic move is not necessary despite all that OKC tax money (http://newsok.com/former-owners-contend-sonics-dont-have-to-move/article/3253575/?tm=1212720734)


If, as Yarmuth contends, a lease is with the ownership group and not the team itself, why is Seattle trying to enforce a lease against Bennett that was signed 2 or 3 owners back?

badger
6/6/2008, 03:29 PM
If, as Yarmuth contends, a lease is with the ownership group and not the team itself, why is Seattle trying to enforce a lease against Bennett that was signed 2 or 3 owners back?

According to some lawyer quoted in one of the articles I posted, it is usually very difficult for some renter to force a contract on a tenant. I mean, think of all the apartment leases we've all bought early out of.

In this case, it is to Seattle's cultural benefit to keep a unique tenant. They are unique because there's only 30 of them in the country. Thus, the Sonics offer something that another tenant couldn't offer, whereas most apartment tenants could be replaced by another tenant with money and good credit.

As was the case with another article I quoted (no, I'm not trying to hint that you should read them, I'm just citing them to show that not all the stuff I spout here is my own random thoughts and knowledge), a city councilor for Seattle went on a rant about how little the Sonics had to offer Seattle culturally and beneficially. The odds are against Seattle in betting (again, from another article linked earlier) and literally in winning this lawsuit and the only chance they have in forcing a tenant to stay in a lease that hinders their business (another article said the Sonics organization is losing $30 mil per season, a good reason Mr. Starbucks sold them in the first place) is to prove that Seattle, the landlord, would be losing far more by losing its tenant.

So, this is what I've gotten out of all sources so far...

Sonics stay in Seattle if...

1- Schultz (or is his name "Shultz?" I've seen both) is allowed to reclaim his team that he sold two years ago. He must prove that Bennett et al breached the original contract which states that they make a good faith effort to keep the Sonics in Seattle.

2- The Sonics are forced in the courts (not the basketball court, silly) to honor their full lease agreement. Seattle, as the Sonics landlord, must prove that the Sonics are a unique tenant that cannot be easily replaced by another and benefits Seattle in a cultural way.

Sonics move to Oklahoma City if...

1- Bennett proves that the Sonics organization is too far gone from Schultz's ownership. He will focus on the fact that they have sold off the WNBA team the Seattle Storm, gotten a new coach and acquired many new players and contracts as well as let go some major contracts since Schultz's ownership, thus making the current Sonics business far different from the one he purchased two years ago. This will likely be a better argument point that proving they tried to keep the Sonics in Seattle in "good faith efforts," but Bennett should be prepared to defend that as well.

2- The Sonics are allowed to buy out the lease with KeyArena, or wait until the lease can be bought out or expires. The last offer, I think, was $26 million. The Sonics organization must prove that a price tag can be put on the remain lease time (which City of Seattle has said cannot be done) and also show how damaging the current lease is to the business by pointing out annual loss of revenue ($30 million, which Seattle has argued can be attributed to less marketing and public appearances by players).
---
I hope that clears it up a little. It is still confusing to me. I would rather be analyzing potential draft picks, to tell you the truth. This arbitration crap is the reason I hate professional sports sometimes. Are we going to be debating the NFL players vs. owners in a few years?

If it matters, both matters of litigation are apparently being handled by the same judge, so one case will not interfere with the other. I would say that Seattle and Schultz (Shultz?!) have more work to do and more to prove than Bennett et al. The betting odds are in favor of Oklahoma.

Big Red Ron
6/6/2008, 03:31 PM
If, as Yarmuth contends, a lease is with the ownership group and not the team itself, why is Seattle trying to enforce a lease against Bennett that was signed 2 or 3 owners back?I caught that too. I think the Judges in these cases have to be wearing sonics underwear on to either resend the sale or keep them in Seattle.

All of the arguments against the OKC owners boarder on ridiculous and frivolous.

badger
6/6/2008, 04:55 PM
Don't get too overconfident, guys. We've seen some boneheaded decisions recently in sports by minor judges. Any decision made in this court will immediately get appealed by the losing side.

I'm referring, of course, to the NFL ruling on underclassmen entering the draft before their junior year in college. Maurice Clarrett not only ruined his own pro career, but USC's Mike Williams as well.

Any premature celebrating by either side right after this initial ruling would be just that - premature. If the Sonics are losing money now, imagine how much they would lose if they immediately started moving after an initial court ruling, only for it to be later overturned? The same goes for Seattle, if they decide to invest anything in KeyArena's area after a ruling in their favor.

We are all biased here in Oklahoma - we think that we deserve this team. However, there is evidence against both sides at this point. It really could go either way in both cases. I think Oklahoma has a better chance, yes, but don't jump to conclusions.

ric311
6/6/2008, 06:55 PM
Why you want an NBA team is beyond me. The NBA is the worst of all the professional sports leagues. Gawd awful. We have an NBA team in Denver and I haven't seen a game in 15 years.

birddog
6/6/2008, 08:09 PM
you also have football, baseball, hockey, soccer, and bball. i would go to any of the other before i went to a bball game but if it's the only game in town and it's OUR cities name on the jersey, i'm in.

Big Red Ron
6/6/2008, 09:11 PM
Why you want an NBA team is beyond me. The NBA is the worst of all the professional sports leagues. Gawd awful. We have an NBA team in Denver and I haven't seen a game in 15 years.
I think MLB and Hockey suck and TV ratings and revenue bear that out. Thanks for your opinion though.

KC//CRIMSON
6/6/2008, 09:21 PM
The Mayor of OKC has spoken, ladies and gentlemen.

Frozen Sooner
6/6/2008, 09:31 PM
I think MLB and Hockey suck and TV ratings and revenue bear that out. Thanks for your opinion though.

Can you give me some internal polling data on that? ;)

Big Red Ron
6/6/2008, 09:34 PM
Can you give me some internal polling data on that? ;)
Nope, I do politics for a living. I only do sports on tv. ;)

But it's pretty obvious that the NFL and NBA have overtaken MLB as the top sports. Heck, I think nascar (spit) is actually number 1 now. I mean, if you consider it a sport.

Crimsontothecore
6/6/2008, 10:22 PM
you also have football, baseball, hockey, soccer, and bball. i would go to any of the other before i went to a bball game but if it's the only game in town and it's OUR cities name on the jersey, i'm in.

You would go to soccer before B-ball? Are you serious? For me football is the only one on the list I would put ahead of B-ball.

birddog
6/7/2008, 08:45 AM
You would go to soccer before B-ball? Are you serious? For me football is the only one on the list I would put ahead of B-ball.

absolutely. nba bball can get pretty boring (even in person) and i was born and raised on soccer. but i'll support any pro franchise (major league) because ou football and bball have been the only pro franchises i've known.

badger
6/7/2008, 09:31 AM
All right, sorry to interrupt what could have been a very, very fun topic :D But here in SONICWATCH, we check the latest on our first real, actual news on the Sonics front - the pretrial, which began yesterday (Friday):
Seattle Times: Bennett is a "man possessed" to keep Sonics in Seattle! (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004463512_sonics07m.html)

Seattle P-I: Bennett says Sonics are huge losers (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/366208_trialbar07.html)

AP wire: General overview of deposition (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gYUohKhnQfyYrZirndKo0xBXugjQD9157VSG0)

So, that's what went down yesterday. Seattle pwner Clay Bennett was grilled by the City of Seattle attorney over moving the Sonics out of Seattle. Yawn. I re-headlined the articles to make them sound more interesting than they really are, but if you're really interested in this, it's a good read.

More interestingly, the pathetic Save our Sonics campaign continues with...

HoopsWorld: Xavier McDaniel?! (http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=8981)

If you read my draft analysis from a few days ago, you would know that "X-man" (???) was the Sonics first round choice from the mid 80s... 1985, I think. Anyway, a solid player for them and still beloved in Seattle, even if he ended up on a few other teams later. If you're not interested in the pathetic SOS front, you can see HoopsWorld take a jab at Chicago media making news where there isn't any earlier in that article.

So obviously, you want to know when this mess with end. As a "pretrial" suggests, it really hasn't started yet. The actual trial starts June 16, yes, the same day that underclassmen can jump back in college before the draft. However, the judge will make her ruling regarding the pretrail on Monday (http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5icMrwchODi8vO6z5HaMJ4Jfb7Euw), according to the Canadian Press. I don't think we should expect anything too scary.

Remember, here at SONICWATCH, we are not the Sonic Death Watch (http://thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=515365). Nobody reads alternatives except the coastal elite anyway ;) Well, except the Oklahoma Gazette. Later everyone!

Crimsontothecore
6/7/2008, 11:02 AM
It's almost laughable how Seattle's attorneys try to demonize Bennett for wanting to move a franchise that's losing money. Using those e-mails to prove that Bennett's initial intentions were to move the team is lame at best.
I have no doubt he purchased the team with the intentions of moving it to OKC but he still gave Seattle a year to show some initiative to keep the team and build a new arena. Shultz didn't sell the team because it was making him lots of money. I'm trying to understand the obligation to completing the lease as opposed to the business decision to not continue losing money.

Frozen Sooner
6/7/2008, 11:26 AM
Hey, X-Man possibly had the greatest sports cameo in film ever in the movie Singles.

KC//CRIMSON
6/7/2008, 02:43 PM
"SONICWATCH,"... 6/7/2008 11:52 AM Civicus_Sooner you're a prick

Nice one, Chuckles.

badger
6/8/2008, 09:46 AM
WE HAVE AN UPDATE!
no, not really. Today, in SONICWATCH, we have a single update on what we can expect out of the judge...
AOL: Judge won't take no shizzle and wants it over fast. (http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/06/07/sonics-vs-seattle-judge-is-dang-serious/)

People, she means business! Nah, she probably just doesn't want either side to drag their feet (namely, Seattle's side) to the point where they win because a move would be impossible in that short time frame. She is clearly already pizzed at Seattle.

However, in this edition of SONICWATCH, we remind you again that Tulsa, Muskogee, Lawton, Norman, Stilly and other Oklahoma towns are not the enemy. The enemy has a space needle, and this guy:
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/images/a/6285.jpg
Ladies and gentlemen, today, we introduce you to Sherman Alexie, 12-year Sonic ticket holder, and one of the people Bennett is trying to convince the judge is irrelevant to the trial, but who wants to testify on Seattle's behalf anyways.

Alexie started getting involved in this mess back in November 6, 2006 - why yes, thank you for pointing out that was two years ago! You might... YES! You ARE making the connection that two years ago was when Bennett allegedly starting considering a move!

This is what Alexie wrote on Nov. 7, 2006. (http://thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=101518)

Rather than force you to read it (that would take more time than necessary), I'll paraphrase the monotonous blog-like ranting that introduces us to someone that thinks he can convince a judge that Seattle is the best home for the Sonics. He's a Native American (whoop tee do, so is everyone here in Oklahoma - BOOMER!), he's a leftist Democrat (whoop tee do, so is everyone out there in Seattle - BOO!) and he "holisticly" cheers for the Sonics (???) and that hookers used to grace the corner of his favorite Starbucks (!!!).

Long story short, he's a fan and doesn't want them to go and this is the column that preceeded his regular column, "Sonic Death Watch." In case he's reading this, and he probably is, because he's an author and all authors like reading what others are writing about them, "SONICWATCH" was a name that was thought up independently of your column. I found your column by mistake, because I only link stories on here that get huge hit counts on the subject matter through Google. "Sonic Death Watch" does not apply, because like we've seen in numerous MAINSTREAM articles, Seattle overall does not care that your Sonics are leaving... OH! You mentioned that in your column! Well done.

Fortunately, the Alexie author grows smart, knowing that most readers don't have the time to read a longer rant. Each of his "Sonic Death Watch" volumes are nowhere near as long and can, in fact, be a little bit funny. He pointed out a little Kobe fan that tried to fight a security guard (Vol. II). He bemoans fair weather NBA fans (Vol. III). He still hates Kobe fans by Vol. VIII. He cries in almost everyone of his columns (or at least mentions crying). He mentions the fate of Vin Baker (link (http://thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=557617) for our Baker fan on here). He finally addresses the fact that he's Mr Irrelevant by Volume XXI. (http://thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=592310)

Long story short, Alexie is not on the Oklahoma HATE wagon, like many people that like to flood into our newspaper/media sites and post how backwards thinking we are. Rather, he's a fan that won't have his favorite team in his backyard and is surrounded by a lot of people that don't care. He's already said that he is considering flying to Oklahoma City to see his team again. This is a very good idea for the following reasons, Mr. Alexie, because as we've stated before, you're and author and you're already reading this:

1- You're a Native American, so you will blend in well here and like any other visitors who are not illegal immigrants, will be welcomes with open arms. Heck, we're even pretty nice to illegals even if our lawmakers aren't.

2- We support losing teams just like winning ones. We had the Hornets for better or worse. When they turned better, New Orleans wanted them back, but we'll love a team even if it's the worst in the league. Look at Oklahoma State University.

3- You mentioned that you would love to see Native American athletes. There is no better place to see this than Oklahoma, where we have a Native American starting quarterback and a Native American starting point guard at OU.

4- There is Starbucks here, as you mentioned once already. You won't have to give up on your favorite coffee.

So, there you have it. This guy will likely not testify (and if you did, what would you say? "I'm a fan and I don't want them to leave."), but we Native Americans can relate to this situation well and will offer more shoulders to cry on than Seattle ever will (because, need I remind you - 28th ranked attendance in the league).

As a Native American legend goes, there once was a prominent high school football team at an Indian school. The refs made an absolutely awful call and a parent in the stand got furious. The person next to him said: "They've taken our lands and our homes. What's another 10 yards to us?"

jkm, the stolen pifwafwi
6/8/2008, 09:50 AM
Nice one, Chuckles.

chuckles gets a pass due to your excessive post reporting red card cancelling out his reputation comment red card...

GrapevineSooner
6/8/2008, 10:13 AM
It's almost laughable how Seattle's attorneys try to demonize Bennett for wanting to move a franchise that's losing money. Using those e-mails to prove that Bennett's initial intentions were to move the team is lame at best.

Well, they do cast doubt on that 'negotiating in good faith' clause, which is what the case is centered around. From a legal standpoint, I can completely understand the city's intentions as far as the case goes.

That having been said, the team is clearly losing money hand over first primarily because of the lease they're stuck in. If you can't see that, you're an idiot. And if you can't understand why an owner would want to get out from under that lease, you're a bigger idiot.

Which makes this case nothing more than a scorhed earth policy that will discourage anybody else from putting any professional sports team in Seattle. Maybe in a suburb, but certainly not in Seattle.

GrapevineSooner
6/8/2008, 10:16 AM
Nope, I do politics for a living. I only do sports on tv. ;)

But it's pretty obvious that the NFL and NBA have overtaken MLB as the top sports. Heck, I think nascar (spit) is actually number 1 now. I mean, if you consider it a sport.

According to the national sports conscience, the NFL is clearly the top sport in the country while the NBA and MLB are probably distant 2nd and 3rd's.

On a personal level, though, I'd sooner watch hockey than either of those sports. But to each their own.

badger
6/8/2008, 01:55 PM
I will try to introduce more of the lesser known players surrounding the lawsuits in coming SONICWATCH editions. I'm surprised either OKC or Seattle media hasn't done the same thing... but alas, the message boards are where you get your news anyways, right guys? :D

Because someone brought it up in debating which league is best, I say... let the PEOPLE decide. No, this does not mean a patented SF.com "POLE" is forthcoming. Rather, let's look at the best way people vote... with their attendance.

In the NFL...
Teams: 32
Games: 256
Total attendance: 17,341,012
Average attendance: 67,738

Note: The NFL ranks first worldwide in average attendance per event for outdoor events in a professional sports league. Stats based on 2007 season.

In the MLB...
Teams: 30
Games: 2,431
Total attendance: 79,503,175
Average attendance: 32,703

Note: The MLB ranks second domestically and sixth worldwide in average attendance per event for outdoor events in a professional sports league. Stats based on 2007 season. For the record, between the NFL and MLB are several soccer leagues and an India cricket league.

In the NBA...
Teams: 30 (including one in Canada)
Games: 1,230
Total attendance: 21,841,480
Average attendace: 17,757

Note: The NBA ranks first worldwide in average attendance per event for indoor events in a professional sports league. Stats based on 2006-07 season.

In the NHL...
Teams: 30 (including six in Canada)
Games: 1,230
Total attendance: 21,236,255
Average attendance: 17,265

Note: By less than 500 fans, the NHL ranks second to the NBA in worldwide average attendance per event for indoor events in a pro sports league. Stats based on 2007-08 season. Also of note is that the NBA and the NHL has the exact same number of event over these seasons... but they aren't in the same year. The NBA, of course, still has a few games left.

If you are a stickler for details, you will notice that the MLB has the greatest total attendance... but then again, they have a lot of games per season. NFL is king in terms of average attendance per game.

Here are all stats. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professiona l_sports_leagues)

Take stats as you will, but I think attendance is the most tell figure out there. Fans won't attend games of a failing team or a failing league. NBA take note: Your attendance is on par with NHL. Be afraid.

Big Red Ron
6/8/2008, 02:45 PM
ITake stats as you will, but I think attendance is the most tell figure out there. Fans won't attend games of a failing team or a failing league. NBA take note: Your attendance is on par with NHL. Be afraid.
lol, hate to burst yer bubble :P but butts in seats isn't the most accurate way to look at it as MLB plays a bazzillion games in huge outdoor stadiums. Besides that's the same logic soccer fans use to say they are the numba 1 sport in the world, lots games and big stadiums.

If you look at the millions of people that watch sports on TV The NBA is second only to the NFL and NHL is hardly even on TV. A quick google search found this article base on an ESPN story. I'm too lazy to look anything else up..;)

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_professional_sports_in_the_US_rank_in_popul arity


NFL (National Football League)
NBA (National Basketball Association)
MLB (Major League Baseball)
NCAA football (college football)
NCAA basketball (college basketball)
NASCAR (stock car racing)
WWE (professional wrestling)
NHL (National Hockey League)
AFL (Arena Football League)
WNBA (Women's National Basketball Association)
MLS (Major League Soccer)
IRL (Indy Racing League)

Eielson
6/8/2008, 03:27 PM
I doubt that most of those people that go to baseball games sit through the whole game.

badger
6/9/2008, 09:27 AM
Heavy rain? Check. Power outages? Check. SONICWATCH, edition ??? coming at you right now? Double check! We are exactly ONE WEEK, yes, merely ONE WEEK from the draft day deadline for underclassmen to undeclare, as well as ONE WEEK away from the lawsuit main trial. Oh look, others have also eluded to this fact...

Seattle Times: One week away, barring a settlement (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sonics/2004465996_soni09.html)

As stated before, and stated here in the Seattle Times, the judge over all Sonic-related lawsuits will rule on pretrial evidence, witnesses, et al today (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004466473_apwasonicsmove.html).

It has been said time and time again that the Sonics will lose $60 million by staying out their lease in Seattle over the next two years. But, has it also been stated here how much difference a little ol' move would make?

Hoopsvibe: Bennett says... A BIG DIFFERENCE! (http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba/nba-news/bennett-team-would-lose-60-million-in-seattle-ar48439.html)

But, basketball should be fun and not all business, which brings us to the kiddos picking teams. The Sonic bully drew pick 4, so what should we do to beat up the other kids?

NewsOK: Don't trade it! (http://newsok.com/sonics-shouldnt-trade-4th-pick/article/3254792/)

MVN: This guy has Beasley falling to us. Huh? (http://mvn.com/nba-draft/2008/06/08/my-fav5-of-the-08-nba-draft/)

Bleacher Report: How about Anthony Randolph? (http://www.bleacherreport.com/articles/28210-Seattle-Supersonics-Draft-Candidates-Anthony-Randolph)

Right now, it is not clear what way the Sonics are leaning (other than toward Oklahoma City, lolz), so I'll hold off any SONICWATCH draft pick analysis... not saying that you guys can't, however. I, however, will until I get a better hint of what they'll do, as far as trading down or trading out... trading up? Probably not up, but I can still see down or out, which will likely mean another down and out sesason :mad:

Perhaps Bennett will draft based on whether he's in Seattle or Oklahoma City this coming season? Now there would be some humor :D

Oh... and I was just posting stats on baseball, hocket, etc. I have no league preference other than PACKERS. If the Packers decide to play hockey tomorrow, I'm sooooo there :D I have moderate-to low moderate interest in the Bucks, but that's just cuz NP is trying to make me a Spurs fan :D As for the Brewers, out of all teams that feel shat upon during strike, contraction and other discussions, no team felt the shafting shat like the Brewers. Our owner is da debil. Oh, and our new stadium roof leaks!

poke4christ
6/9/2008, 12:35 PM
I was reading through the seattle times story on the trial coming up and I got through almost the entire thing thinking it was a good article. Then I got to the last sentence.


A Sonics win — putting Bennett a step closer to taking the team to Oklahoma City — could be the biggest loss of all in franchise history.

Cheap shot and not true at all.

badger
6/9/2008, 02:31 PM
I was reading through the seattle times story on the trial coming up and I got through almost the entire thing thinking it was a good article. Then I got to the last sentence.



Cheap shot and not true at all.

I agree, man - a reporter should not be saying that. A columnist, yes, but not an unbiased news reporter. Whatever.

Update from Seattle Times: The judge rules on pretrial (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004466821_apbknsupersonicstrial1stldwritethru.htm l)

Judge says:

1- The Sonics can introduce evidence stating the dysfunctional relationship, like the survey that says Seattle does not care.

2- Sonics can also introduce the city pressuring the sale of the Sonics to local Microsoft people.

3- Seattle talk radio host Mitch Levy can't testify, because he was added late, another benefit to the Sonics.

4- Seattle author Sherman Alexie, profiled earlier here at SONICWATCH, can testify, even though the Sonics tried to argue that he would have nothing relevant to say... which we've already confirmed to be true :D

So, all in all, a very good day for the Sonics side of the argument. Seattle really didn't have much going for them in this pretrial ruling, other than Alexie, who, once again, has nothing important to say on behalf of Seattle.

Boomer Sonics, Boomer Sonics... ;)

Big Red Ron
6/9/2008, 07:21 PM
I agree, man - a reporter should not be saying that. A columnist, yes, but not an unbiased news reporter. Whatever.

Update from Seattle Times: The judge rules on pretrial (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004466821_apbknsupersonicstrial1stldwritethru.htm l)

Judge says:

1- The Sonics can introduce evidence stating the dysfunctional relationship, like the survey that says Seattle does not care.

2- Sonics can also introduce the city pressuring the sale of the Sonics to local Microsoft people.

3- Seattle talk radio host Mitch Levy can't testify, because he was added late, another benefit to the Sonics.

4- Seattle author Sherman Alexie, profiled earlier here at SONICWATCH, can testify, even though the Sonics tried to argue that he would have nothing relevant to say... which we've already confirmed to be true :D

So, all in all, a very good day for the Sonics side of the argument. Seattle really didn't have much going for them in this pretrial ruling, other than Alexie, who, once again, has nothing important to say on behalf of Seattle.

Boomer Sonics, Boomer Sonics... ;)Either the judge is sandbagging or the sonics will be packing their bags at the end of June.

Sooner_Havok
6/9/2008, 08:26 PM
I have to stop reading the comments on those articles. Some of them make me wish Mount Rainier would go boom. I know they are losing their team, but why make such vicious attacks against all Oklahomans?

Cam
6/9/2008, 08:41 PM
I have to stop reading the comments on those articles. Some of them make me wish Mount Rainier would go boom. I know they are losing their team, but why make such vicious attacks against all Oklahomans?

Yeah, some of them are pretty delusional about Oklahoma and those of us who are from and live here.

badger
6/10/2008, 10:20 AM
In honor of people pointing out how bitter Seattle is, let us fire back a little, shall we?

Rather, others have already taken the firing shots. We'll just point at the bullet holes:
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h183/ncamm16/churchsign.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3290/2409293444_9842872f19.jpg
http://www.midwood.net/blogs/photos/seattlesucks.jpg
Psst... don't bother typing in "Seattlesucks.com" because there's nothing there. Rather, visit here (http://www.midwood.net/blogs/2006/02/why-seattle-sucks-and-jeff-foxworthy.html)to read the many ways that Seattle apparently sucks.

We Oklahomans are actually visiting the state of Washington this coming football season, aren't we? NP and I already have hotel rooms booked. Wouldn't it be awesome to wear OKC Sonics stuff? Hurry up, lawsuit! We need gear NOW! Pokies, this goes ESPECIALLY for you and your Wazzu game in Seattle itself!

On second thought, they hate Oregon like we do, so why should we be beating the dead horse?

Oh, that's right, because the DEAD HORSE HAS CRAPPY REFS IN ITS CONFERENCE! :mad:

;)

So, in this edition of SONICWATCH, we continue to steal the content of the Web to update you all on (a) Why we are closer than before to wearing OKC Sonics gear to the OU/Warshington and (since I know at least one Poke is reading) the OSU/Wazzu game, and (b) Why we are one day closer than yesterday to the NBA Draft.

Seattle Times: Wanna bet on where the Sonics are going next year? (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004468036_sonibet10.html)

Hey, didn't we just post that story last week? SOME paper out there is reading :D Note: to make linky more visible, I'm emboldin' them!

Associated Press: Main overview of yesterday's events. (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gYUohKhnQfyYrZirndKo0xBXugjQD915GHVG0)

The Columbian: We don't wanna hafta cheer for da Blazers! Boo! (http://www.columbian.com/sports/localNews/2008/06/06102008_Regional-Royalty-SuperSonics-departure-for-Oklahoma-City-would-could-turn-Blazers-into-Northwests-team.cfm)

Note the little girl picture to make your heart strings snap. SOS! Save Our Sonics! :rolleyes: I think there were five fans at that game and we have now seen No. 5.

Seattle P-I: This ex-Sonic came from Oklahoma before being a Sonic! (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/366052_where06.html?source=mypi)

Seattle Times: List of players to work out for Sonics this week, topping the list is Jerryd Bayless. (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sonics/2004468002_soni10.html)

So, as you can see, the big news of today is yesterday. Maybe I should post more suckitude pictures?

http://www.marketing-alternatif.com/images/blog/coffetastelikecrap.jpg
http://www.pulsetc.com/image/2006/0104/starbucks-sucks.jpg
http://www.counterfeitchic.com/Images/Starbucks%20-%20corporate%20coffee%20sucks.jpg
And because this is a SONIC watch, let's see what SONIC says...
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/IYBIt3uyntM&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/IYBIt3uyntM&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Until next time, this has been SONICWATCH. Seattle, you are noooooooo good! ;)

poke4christ
6/10/2008, 03:11 PM
So, in this edition of SONICWATCH, we continue to steal the content of the Web to update you all on (a) Why we are closer than before to wearing OKC Sonics gear to the OU/Warshington and (since I know at least one Poke is reading) the OSU/Wazzu game, and (b) Why we are one day closer than yesterday to the NBA Draft.



YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!!

I love this idea!

OSU and OU fans need to band together to make Orange (for the OSU vs WSU game) and red (for the OU vs WU game) OKC Sonics shirts. It would be awesome!!!

badger
6/10/2008, 03:27 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you... the one Poke who is reading :)

Remember, we are CRIMSON, not red. Crimson ;)

Oh, and we shouldn't taunt or discuss taunting until we've won. As soon as they get ready to move, though, we could probably put something together... remember how fast we got Stunned Aggie shirts on the market? :D:D:D

Big Red Ron
6/10/2008, 06:29 PM
YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!!

I love this idea!

OSU and OU fans need to band together to make Orange (for the OSU vs WSU game) and red (for the OU vs WU game) OKC Sonics shirts. It would be awesome!!!You're cool and all for an aggie but that is so damn aggie.

The colors are green and gold, for now. A simple green Oklahoma City Sonics shirt will suffice.

Mixer!
6/11/2008, 09:29 AM
Crimson and orange don't mix.

badger
6/11/2008, 09:59 AM
Good morning, and welcome to SONICWATCH. Crimson and orange do not mix (unless you are Virginia Tech), but remember - the Sonics will likely not be the Sonics after leaving Seattle and will likely be something cooler, like the Thunderbirds.

In which case, the taunting would be an inside joke and not a blatant slap in anyone's face, lolz.

Seattle P-I: This columnist thinks he's clever. (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/thiel/366606_thiel11.html)

He contends that losses are going up because salaries are going up and therefore, it's the Sonics own fault that they are paying more and losing more. This argument would work... if Wilt Chamberlain got the same deal 60 years ago that Kevin Garnett got in '98 forcing the lockout. :rolleyes:

Seattle P-I: The old and new ownership agree on something! (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/366587_trial11.html)

Basically, they want to postpone their own hearings on ownership until after the Sonics battle Seattle. Reading between the lines, it looks like Mr. Starbucks doesn't want to reclaim ownership of a losing money franchise. He just wants it in Seattle :rolleyes:

So there you have it - a very, very slow news day on SONICWATCH front. Yesterday, I decided to fill such a slow newsday with Seattle mockery, but that's not really a two-day thing. The only change in the lawsuit is that the owners mutually want their hearing to wait, while the outcrying opinion in Seattle is still "honor your lease! you signed this contract! whiiiiiine!"

As stated before, but I'll state it again, the Sonics can get out of their lease, regardless of when the lease ends, if they...

1- Can prove that the lease isn't beneficial to them. $30 per year losses should prove that. Seattle will counter like Mr. Smarty Pants Columnist did that the Sonics were losing money back under previous ownership.

2- Can prove that they are replaceable. This is where David Stern puts on his PR hat (the same one he had on ESPN yesterday about the bad ref's allegations that the refs were point shaving playoff games) and says that Seattle has a very good chance of getting another team... when we all know that no team nor owner will touch Seattle after this lawsuit crap. Seattle will argue (this where that author Alexie comes in) that the Sonics are a valuable part of Seattle culture and are irreplaceable.

3- Can put a pricetag on the value of the Sonics to Seattle. Seattle has already rejected this notion, as well as the $26 mil buyout offer.

So, they have a little bit to prove. However, they can, and likely will, get out of this crappy lease. Portland had an awful deal with the Rose Garden which they got out of by threatening to leave (not that the Blazers would leave Portland, but the threat was to leave the Rose Garden), so the Sonics definitely have some leverage and precedent. Thoughts?

poke4christ
6/11/2008, 11:10 AM
You're cool and all for an aggie but that is so damn aggie.

The colors are green and gold, for now. A simple green Oklahoma City Sonics shirt will suffice.

no way I would wear green to a Cowboys game. That's the whole point. I assumed you wouldn't to a Sooners game as well.

badger
6/11/2008, 11:18 AM
no way I would wear green to a Cowboys game. That's the whole point. I assumed you wouldn't to a Sooners game as well.

Like I said, the colors, team name and many other things (like the host city, lolz) are likely to change, so no worries about wearing a funky color to your Pokie game... although, if you are like the popular teams, like OU, for example, I'm sure by now you have hats and shirts in other colors besides SCREAMING ORANGE. For example, OU has green shirts, pink everything, dark gray stuff (thanks a lot Nike) and I've seen several dark blue things out there.

Not that you've worn any of that, but I'm pretty sure I've seen Poke stuff in pink.

poke4christ
6/11/2008, 01:06 PM
Like I said, the colors, team name and many other things (like the host city, lolz) are likely to change, so no worries about wearing a funky color to your Pokie game... although, if you are like the popular teams, like OU, for example, I'm sure by now you have hats and shirts in other colors besides SCREAMING ORANGE. For example, OU has green shirts, pink everything, dark gray stuff (thanks a lot Nike) and I've seen several dark blue things out there.

Not that you've worn any of that, but I'm pretty sure I've seen Poke stuff in pink.

Totally. I remember seeing mila kunis (she plays Jackie on that 70's show and meg on Family Guy) wearing a pink Oklahoma State Hooddie on a celebrity poker game on TV. I've got no problem with clothing in different colors, but at the games I want people wearing orange!!! I think OU fans should do the same thing and wear re.....I mean Crimson ;)

badger
6/12/2008, 09:22 AM
Good morning! More fun than a list of Clinton's enemies (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/11/us/politics/11clinton.html?_r=2&ref=politics&oref=slogin&oref=slogin), here's SONICWATCH coming at ya!

Today, we actually have some fun, incriminating update :D

Tulsa World: Sonics associate with Tulsa D-League team. (http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/article.aspx?articleID=20080612_29_B1_hNBADL284161 )

That can't be a good sign... for you! Not to be confused with the NBA's Phila Sixers (76ers) the Tulsa Sixers (66ers) will be associated with the Sonics now. For those who follow the D-League (I do not), each D-League team is assigned a few NBA teams to feed it development players. Two teams, the Lakers and the Spurs (and perhaps more, remember, I don't follow the NBDL) own their own D-League team and do not share.

Idaho Statesman: Reminding you that your Idaho D-League team, the former affiliate of the Sonics, was your defending D-League D-champ. (http://www.idahostatesman.com/sports/story/409295.html)

Why did the Sonics trade places with the Raptors in regards to Idaho affiliation? They did it for the LULZ. And po-ta-toes. Boil em, mash em, mix em in a stew. Oh, and they're still tied to the Blazers.

ESPN: Sonics say they're moving for the benefit of both sides! (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3438868)

Where's the thanks they get for helping Seattle out for trying to move and cut their losses? Funny mention in the article that actual attendance was far lower than ticket sale attendance :D

Seattle Times: Sonic battle costing lots of money for Seattle! (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sonics/2004472269_sonics12m0.html)

Leave it to the coastal elitist liberal media to point out Seattle spending $1 million on basketball instead of the starvin' children.

Seattle P-I: Seattle basketball leads to "yawning indifference" (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/366756_betting12.html?source=mypi)

And here we thought the Spurs were the most boring team in the NBA? No, as it turns out, the Sonics are. OKC to the rescue! :rolleyes:

All three of the past linked stories also mention that the current argued offer in count is no longer the $26.5 million offered before the trial started. The lowball offer is now $10 million, the amount that the Sonics pay for their annual lease.

There are a lot of fun stats in the stories, so if you're a stickler for that, today will be fun research in that regard (Example: Did you know that only an estimated 19,000 people in Seattle insanely huge television market that is so much larger and greater than Oklahoma City's... only 19,000 actually watch the Sonics? lol).

With the draft only about 10 days away now, you'd think more would be talking about the Sonics No. 4 pick, or NBA-high six picks, right? Nope, we have to look to a local Seattle blogger for any analysis at all...

Supersonicsoul: Hey look, these Finals teams have outstanding players from the second round, so we should get some talent there too! (http://www.supersonicsoul.com/2008/06/picking-for-future.html)

:rolleyes: Well, he must be one of the 19,000 still watching the Sonics, or perhaps one of the 9,146 actually attending games and not one of the 28 percent of ticket holders, from an average attendance of 13,355, just buying tickets to games. He could possibly be one of the taxpayers footing the $1 million lawyer tab that Seattle's been paying for this lawsuit.

Eh, so much stats static. Until next time, this has been SONICWATCH, where we remind you, Seattle fan painted an ugly green color, the Storm are staying.
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08E748v6ixaEc/610x.jpg

Oh, and that the WNBA offers better fundamentals to make up for the inability to dunk.
http://ui31.gamespot.com/990/futurama6_2.jpg
Something definitely to cheer about ;)

NormanPride
6/12/2008, 10:02 AM
I hope you guys realize this is one of the best news-related things going on right now. These posts are priceless. :D

Civicus_Sooner
6/12/2008, 07:11 PM
I hope you guys realize this is one of the best news-related things going on right now. These posts are priceless. :D
No doubt.

badger
6/12/2008, 07:29 PM
What can I say, I love keeping people informed :D

Seriously though, if I wasn't doing it I would hope that someone else would, because to have the first permanent major league team in state history is historic. Up until now, we've just been the NFL's feeding tube and yes, the Hornets, but they were on loan. If this deal goes through (and I've presented daily evidence that it will), we're living history here :D

Plus, the pics. They're hilarious and deserve new captions:
http://www.king5.com/sports/sonics/stories/M_IMAGE.118eaf352b3.93.88.fa.d0.6222b2b2.jpg
STEVE RINGMAN / THE SEATTLE TIMES:All four remaining Seattle fans pictured here showing how little Seattle really cares about the Sonics.

Civicus_Sooner
6/12/2008, 09:31 PM
Supersonicsoul: Hey look, these Finals teams have outstanding players from the second round, so we should get some talent there too!

Well, he must be one of the 19,000 still watching the Sonics, or perhaps one of the 9,146 actually attending games and not one of the 28 percent of ticket holders, from an average attendance of 13,355, just buying tickets to games. He could possibly be one of the taxpayers footing the $1 million lawyer tab that Seattle's been paying for this lawsuit.
So, where the hell is Tony Allen. I haven't seen him the entire finals.

Civicus_Sooner
6/12/2008, 09:35 PM
The club also offered a window into rarely seen data on television and actual in-house attendance numbers. The brief said Nielsen television ratings for the past four seasons have dropped from 3.12 in 2004 to 1.67, 1.60 and finally 1.24 for the just-completed season.

The 1.24 rating indicates that out of a potential 1.5 million households in the Seattle market, only 19,000 were watching the Sonics on average. That figure dropped to a low of .59 for an April 4 game against Houston, meaning only 11,700 households were tuned in that Friday night.
heh, that huge TV market was all they could hang their hats on.

CORNholio
6/12/2008, 11:48 PM
heh, that huge TV market was all they could hang their hats on.

I think the whole T.V. market rating system is bogus anyway. I mean if Tulsa is not considered part of OKC's T.V. market then who's market do they fall into, KC, Dallas? I mean how the hell does this work?

badger
6/13/2008, 09:54 AM
Token funny pic of Seattlers for the day - somebody tell him that getting the No. 2 pick is NOT winning the lottery, especially when your I-5 rival was No. 1!
http://sportfiends.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/sonics-sign.jpg

I was going to share it with you finally today on my day off - what happens every morning when I Google three words to give you your SONICWATCH news. And then, it doesn't happen like it has ever since I started this thing.

It was the funniest thing in the world. The three words were "Oklahoma," "Seattle" and "Sonics." Each time without fail, no matter what order I put the words it, Google would ask me "Did you mean: State Oklahoma Sonics?"

Unfortunately, enough people must be googling Oklahoma Seattle instead of Oklahoma State (yes, that was a cheap shot at our two resident Pokies, sorry guys). Ah well, let's check the news wire, shall we?

NewsOK: An overview of everything yesterday (http://newsok.com/two-sides-ready-legal-strategies-in-sonics-case/article/3256743/?tm=1213324222)

In case you are just tuning in, it recaptures how absurd it is to have these guys in court. This is absolutely ensuring that Seattle will never (in Kansas City terms, which is 23 years and counting - like if Stoops didn't win in 2000 and we were still waiting for championship No. 7) get another NBA team. Their best hope is for Mr. Starbucks to reclaim his former team, which we remind you, has changed so much it would be like OSU trying to rebuy itself back from T. Boone pre-eminent domain (I'm sorry Pokes, I know that's two shots in a row. I'll try not to make it three).

News-Trib: The 30 page report reveals little. (http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/sonics/story/387994.html)

This is a rehash of the city's claims, in case you're wondering why they're still fighting for the last little bit of the 15 year lease signed 13 years ago. Do I need to remind Seattle what Milwaukee got out of trading Ray Allen for the last two months of Gary Payton's dying contract? Ugggggggghhh. We knew there was no chance of resigning Payton, we just got his services for a few months with no hope of retaining him. Nobody bought his jersey and he left right away for LA afterward. The Sonics are Gary Payton and they are leaving Seattle no matter what. STOP FIGHTING! You can't win!

Associated Press: Fyi, in case you forgot, the trial starts Monday. (http://www.kndo.com/Global/story.asp?S=8480906&nav=menu484_4_1)

I'll say it for the 62nd time, in honor of Seattle's 62-loss final Sonics season, that this is the same day as the draft deadline for underclassmen to pull out and exactly one week before the draft. You can visit the Sonics official site (http://www.nba.com/sonics/)to view the top players in a PR-like way. A noticeable difference between this NBA official site and all others I visited in the last few minutes is that they don't mention where they're from, lolz.

Enid News: Oomentary time! (http://www.enidnews.com/sportslocal/local_story_165011144.html)

Here, Enid sporty writer declares that with the ref scandal, we shouldn't be rejoicing about big leagues moving in. Now, I've already given my own oomentary on this, but if you want this guy's opinion...
http://images.cnhi.zope.net/images_sizedimage_159012822/med
This is what happens when you're on deadline and there's still space to fill on the page - "Man, that ref is totally not credible, but since he said the other refs cheated in the playoffs, we better stay away from that darn NBA thing. Ok... now, add in a few retorts about the NBA being stupid and how important integrity is... and voila!"

Oomentary aside, we already have a thread on this, so I'm never mentioning the controversy on here again, because it has nothing to do with the Sonics, because we're a lottery team, much like the Kings are after losing to the Lakers over and over in the playoffs.

NewsOK: KeyArena sucks, let us count the ways (http://newsok.com/study-keyarena-doesnt-measure-up/article/3256742/?tm=1213332916)
These are all new stories posted within in the last day, but apparently, not a lot has happened. This serves as pretty much another F-U to Seattle thinking they're superior to Oklahoma City... however, I keep linking them because of the priceless comments imported from Seattle angsters. Someday, they're going to show up on this site, much like fans of opposing teams. When that day comes... it will be just another day closer to the Sonics moving to OKC.

Ok, since absolutely NOTHING HAPPENED in the past day, let's talk draft:

Hoops Report: Bayless to Seattle! (http://www.thehoopsreport.com/article.aspx?id=110)

I'm sorry, but I'm still not ready to etch this in stone. There are arseholes out there in the NBA that love ruining other team's perfect plan (Read: Jerry in Chicago) and if the Sonics make it known that they want Bayless and only Bayless, some other team is going to take him some way, some how. Oh, and that's probably why the Sonics started the trade talk - to keep options open to pave the way for the inevitable pick of Bayless.


And let's not forget this is the same Stern who doesn't seem to mind all the bad publicity he's taking for allowing deceitful owner Clay Bennett to hijack the Sonics from Seattle out of pure greed and laziness.
This is mostly a column trashing Stern's (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/080612) take on reffing and as such, I will not subject you to read it all yourself for the one paragraph that mentions us.I just think its funny that people expect businessmen to not make decisions that are based on easy money... oh wait, we don't call it easy money, do we? No, no, Ms. Jemele Hill will call easy money "pure greed and laziness." :rolleyes:

Same goes for HoopsWorld (http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9041):


Seattle – The Sonics were horrible in 07-08 with few bright spots outside of a certain pair of rookies. P.J. Carlesimo did an okay job, but struggled with finding a solid rotation and where exactly the best positions were for Kevin Durant and Jeff Green. Were the struggles attributable to rebuilding the team, or to the coach? If the Sonics do indeed move to Oklahoma City, expect the ownership group to make a splashy signing of a new coach if Carlesimo hasn't gotten this team to improve.

I have no idea why googling "Sonics draft" got these past two articles that have practically nothing to do with the Sonics or the draft... but meh. Slow Sonics news day.

Until next time, live from Tulsa, the only Oklahoma town guaranteed to have NBA in action next season (http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/basketball/article.aspx?subjectID=226&articleID=20080228_2_B1_spanc67873), this has been SONICWATCH.

Big Red Ron "OKC > Tulsa" response in 5... 4...

badger
6/13/2008, 02:35 PM
Eh, guess someoned b!tched about the Sonics not being the Sooners. Oh well. It's not like theres a lot of offseason Sooner basketball news

Big Red Ron
6/13/2008, 06:44 PM
Big Red Ron "OKC > Tulsa" response in 5... 4...Nah, not even tulsan's think the D league is something to brag about. ;)

Big Red Ron
6/13/2008, 06:51 PM
Apparently, we're getting Bayless. Below is an NBA.com "Consensus" look at all of the mock drafts and every one has us taking Bayless.

What I can't figure is why OJ Mayo is considered better than Bayless. Seems to me that Mayo under performed at USC.

Hopefully, we get a 7'ft center worth a crap at 24.

http://www.nba.com/draft2008/board/mock.html

Big Red Ron
6/13/2008, 07:03 PM
http://assets.espn.go.com/i/teamlogos/nba/med/trans/sea.gif

Pick 24


Seattle
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008/0520/nba_ap_ibaka_65.jpg
Serge Ibaka (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2008&playerId=19206)Position: PF
Height: 6-10
Weight: 220
Age: 18
Country: Congo

The skinny: Expect Sonics GM Sam Presti to use a trick or two from his days in San Antonio and look internationally with his second pick. Serge Ibaka has the talent to be a potential lottery pick someday, but he's still very raw. The Sonics can leave him over in Spain and reap the benefits down the road.

badger
6/15/2008, 06:23 PM
I got sick of the "Seattle Sonics" logo, so I makeshifted my own...
<<< LOOK OVER TO YOUR LEFT!!! >>>>Not that way, <<<<<THAT WAY!

Haven't posted because nothing's happened. If you need further evidence of this, look no further than Behwy Twammel (http://www.newsok.com/article/3257223), because he might as well had just uttered the infamous People's Court line: "Don't take the law into your own hands: you take 'em to court." How would that go, anyways?

(Dah-dun dun) This is the plantiff, Seattle Washington. She claims that the defendant signed an agreement 13 years ago to rent a room in her house, but now wants out. She said that this will cause her to be out a lot of money. She's suing for $5,000, the amount the four remaining Sonics fans pay each season in outrageous Washington state sales taxes.
(chhhh chh chh chhh. chhh chh chh chh. chhh chh)

(Dah-dun dun) This is the defendant, Clay Bennett. He claims that the lease is damaging to his business and Ms. Washington let the building fall into disrepair. He said he would stay if she properly maintained the house he and his business worked in. He is accused of... signing than splitting.
(chhhh chh chh chhh. chhh chh chh chh. chhh chh)

(Dah-dun dun) This is the plantiff... wait a sec, I thought we already did this part... oh there's another. Start over, please.

(Dah-dun dun) This is the other plantiff, Howard Schultz. He claims that the defendant purchased the business housed in Ms. Washington's room with an agreement to stay there. Now that Mr. Bennett wants to move, Schultz claims that this is breach of contract! He's suing for $5,000, the estimated worth of the business if it stays in Ms. Washington's house.

(chhhh chh chh chhh. chhh chh chh chh. chhh chh)

What you are witnessing is real. The participants are not actors. They are actual litigants with a case pending in a Washington District court. Both parties have agreed to fight to the bitter end and their disputes will likely not be settled here, in our forum: The People's Court!

After this is over, I will be out of fresh ways to make fun of these proceedings. Tomorrow... Judge Judy :D

(just kidding)

Collier11
6/16/2008, 08:38 AM
Doesnt this go to court today?

badger
6/16/2008, 09:16 AM
Doesnt this go to court today?

So glad to see that you are paying attention, class! Welcome to another fun filled learning activity day in SONICWATCH, where the only thing Seattle has ever made any good point on is their Space Needle.

I am kind of bothered by the fact that the Sonic focus seems to be litigation, so let's start with the draft, shall we? Remember, today, Monday, June 16 is the draft deadline! Underclassmen, jump in or jump out, but today's your last chance to leave!

NewsOK: Marcus Dove works out for Sonics (http://newsok.com/seattle-fighting-losing-battle/article/3257920/?tm=1213588129)

If you click on this story, you will actually find that it is more of a rant than any of my posts put together... and that it also mentions the litigation. However, this is the first I've heard of the Sonics second round options, so I'm running with that tagline!

...ok, so... that's pretty much it on draft front. Yes, Collier, the trial starts today.

Seattle P-I: Yes, Collier, the trial does start today! (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/367167_trial16.html)

Copycats. :rolleyes: Anyways, this outlines the arguments (Bennett to Seattle: "Boo hoo!" ...j/k) and it outlines the three possible outcomes... (1) Judge forces Sonics to stay in Seattle the remaining two years of the lease, (2) Judge declares amount of money the Sonics can pay Seattle to leave the lease, or (3) Declares finding for the Sonics, with money to pay off Seattle set at a later court date. Hey, not bad - 2 out of 3!

Seattle Times: Let's make a lottery out of this trial! (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004479239_sonitrial16.html)

More interesting than the fact that the Seattle mayor is testifying is how the audience of the trial will be determined. 44 seats available... take a number, we'll draw numbers. How very clever. The Sonic who draws No. 4, No. 24, No. 32, No. 46, No. 50 and No. 56 should automatically get in :D

News Trib: Pete von Reichbauer is a funny name for a councilman. (http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/story/390070.html)

Oh, if only we predicted that the Sonics would leave if we didn't do more to keep them. Oh, if only we had convinced Seattle how important the Sonics were to the community. Oh, if only we still had professional basketball in this region (well, I guess there's those Blazers down I-5). Oh, the laments of a politician that didn't attach himself to a hot topic issue sooner to help him advance up the political ranks :D:D:D

The Olympian: Let's make an allusion to golf! (http://www.theolympian.com/138/story/479236.html)

This column is kind of lame, like the inevitability of all other golfers not named Tiger allowing Tiger to come out on top each and every major golf outing there is.

Until next time, where you will expect extreme progress in the courtal front, this has been SONICWATCH, reminding you why Bennett can indeed move the Sonics to wherever he pleases:
http://tjsdoubleplay.com/images/judgejudy.jpg
Judy: He's the boss, applesauce!

:rolleyes:

poke4christ
6/16/2008, 10:24 AM
So, what do you guys think? Will David Stern and the NBA hold a grudge against Seattle for this and keep them from getting another team? Survey Says.... *Ding*

________
| 1. Yes |
---------

Collier11
6/16/2008, 10:44 AM
If they dont agree on something fast then yes, if they come to their senses and make an agreement with us then maybe not but probably

badger
6/16/2008, 10:48 AM
So, what do you guys think? Will David Stern and the NBA hold a grudge against Seattle for this and keep them from getting another team? Survey Says.... *Ding*

________
| 1. Yes |
---------

Doesn't Seattle get a vote?

_______
. X
_______
(buzzer)

Dio
6/16/2008, 02:55 PM
44 seats available, and only 15 fans could be found who wanted them.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008000147_sonitrial16web.html

PBC lawyer ripping Seattle's mayor a new one:

http://www.king5.com/specialreport/stories/NW_061608SSB_mon_sonics_trial_minute_by_minute_TP. 2dbc7f52.html

(if the second link makes you register, don't use an email addy with "Oklahoma" or "Sooners" in it.)

badger
6/17/2008, 08:31 AM
Here is today's token image of Seattle fans suddenly caring that they have a pro basketball team:
http://media.keprtv.com/images/sonics%20trial%20day%201%2061608.jpg
KEPR: Seattle fans sounding like they care! (http://www.keprtv.com/sports/20004884.html)

Associated Press: Seattle seems to be going with the "Deal's a deal" defense. (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gi68etltLiETJ2AmBVtpMVIQWHEgD91BDR5G0)

ESPN answers all of your questions. (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=3446658)

Seattle P-I: Nickels to the rescue! (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/367302_trial17.html?source=mypi)

Hey look! More shots of the 15 Seattle fans that showed up to watch!
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2008/06/16/2008001221.jpg
Seattle Times: No, David Stern listens to thousands of fans a day at games, he won't hear 15, stupid. (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008001538_sonitrialside17.html)

NewsOK: Here's what our state media has on it. (http://newsok.com/seattle-mayor-wants-lease-honored/article/3258332/?tm=1213677917)

No news really on draft front. It was all Seattle whining in yesterday, mostly from Nickles (who, btw, is Seattle's mayor). All of today's stories are good reads, so I won't keep you reading here anymore :)

NormanPride
6/17/2008, 10:10 AM
That's their entire fanbase right there. All of them.

badger
6/17/2008, 10:23 AM
Ok, time for Oomentary (the Enid News has still not corrected this typo, lolz):

I recommend you read the articles first. They're more information than I care to divulge in any single sitting. The important part, I think, is to profile who exactly this Greg Nickels (no relation to former OU qb Keith Nichol, sorry) and why he's going after Bennet and Co.
THIS IS GREG NICKELS:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2327/2108784918_9debea034f.jpg
He's the weird guy on the left, giving the death stare to someone who obviously does not support the SEATTLE Sonics.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/muse_boy/nickelsinnewsweek.jpg
Nickels is the mayor of Seattle, pictured here showing what will happen to KeyArena after the Sonics leave - environmentals rejoice! A little green pasture with tiny white flowers! No wonder most of Seattle doesn't care if the Sonics leave...
http://www.irishclub.org/images/Ireland-17.jpg
Nickels believes that the Sonics are as much a part of Seattle culture as funny guys in funny hats ringing funny bells.
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0fP62ZRfcB6p3/610x.jpg
HE IS A TRAITOR! No, no, he is just supporting sports, because we all know that in order to support sports, you wear sporty gear, buy sporty merchandise, and most importantly, attend sporty events.
http://blogs.king5.com/citizenrain/images/gregnickels_240.jpg
Which is why he attended all of TWO SEATTLE SONICS GAMES in a 10-year frame.
http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/images/fake-steve-ballmer.jpg
No, no, Nickels interest in the Sonics is to get them sold off to Microsoft CEO Steve Balmer, who has already promised Seattle to keep the Sonics there and help finance a new $300 mil stadium.
http://www.inekon-trams.com/Seattle-streetcar-unveiling-020.jpg
Nickels has denied knowledge of such an agreement, likely because the buses behind him were too noisy for him to hear Balmer's latest "DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS!" act.
http://www.bellydancingbyzaphara.com/images/MayorNickels.jpg
Greg Nickels doesn't care about the Sonics, much like the rest of Seattle. There are far too many other entertainment options, like belly dancers!
http://kinetic.seattle.wa.us/nxtlevel/etcdocs/localdocs/nickels.jpg
Mayor Nickels is taking this issue to heart, because he is a politician at heart.
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/5084/voterstg6.png
But these type of fanatics aren't even registered to vote.
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/7906/kidoh5.png
This one's too young to vote.
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2222/weirdzx1.png
This one is too weird to vote.
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/8866/paytonsp0.png
This one already left town to get a ring... hey look! It's Gary Payton! :mad: F-U, GARY PAYTON! :mad:

In conclusion, Nickels did awful on the stand yesterday and should not be taken seriously, nor should Seattle fans be taken seriously, as less of them showed up to court (an estimated 3,000) than there are empty seats at most Sonic games. Until next time, this has been SONICWATCH.

Soonerus
6/17/2008, 08:46 PM
Trial seems to be going well for the Sonic owners...Seattle Mayor apparently made a fool of himself on the stand yesterday...

Sooner_Havok
6/17/2008, 08:49 PM
Trial seems to be going well for the Sonic owners...Seattle Mayor apparently made a fool of himself on the stand yesterday...

Go figure, a politician making a fool of themself:rolleyes: You gonna get floor seats Rus?

Soonerus
6/17/2008, 08:51 PM
Go figure, a politician making a fool of themself:rolleyes: You gonna get floor seats Rus?

Definite seats, let's see the prices before committing to location, right ??

Big Red Ron
6/17/2008, 10:12 PM
http://www.king5.com/specialreport/stories/NW_061608SSB_mon_sonics_trial_minute_by_minute_TP. 2dbc7f52.html

(if the second link makes you register, don't use an email addy with "Oklahoma" or "Sooners" in it.)
By far the most informative link in this thread. That's awsome. Their Mayor is dumber than he looks.

Dio
6/17/2008, 10:30 PM
By far the most informative link in this thread. That's awsome. Their Mayor is dumber than he looks.

Thanks, but I jacked it from the sonicsbeat.com forums. ;)

And yes, Nickels is as smart as a boot.

Collier11
6/17/2008, 11:47 PM
By far the most informative link in this thread. That's awsome. Their Mayor is dumber than he looks.

By reading that it basically tells me that Seattle says, "we sold to a out of town businessman, people were ****ed in seattle so we decided to act like babies to protect our reputation and act like we care, we want Bennett to lose money now since we know they are leaving, we want them to stay just becuase"


Thats not much of a legal defense

GrapevineSooner
6/18/2008, 08:56 AM
So, what do you guys think? Will David Stern and the NBA hold a grudge against Seattle for this and keep them from getting another team? Survey Says.... *Ding*

________
| 1. Yes |
---------

I'm sure he would.

But even if Lord David wasn't dictat...err commissioner of the NBA, there's no way any prospective owner would relocate an existing team or start up an expansion team in Seattle because of this scorched Earth policy the city is engaging in in this suit.

It boggles my mind how short sighted these tactics are.

RedStripe
6/18/2008, 09:17 AM
Whats funny is the king5 minute by minute is pretty biased, with a quote like " Back from break and, surprise, Bennett testimony is over." But even with its bias king5 can't hide the fact that the Sonic lawyers are kick the cities ***. If I need a lawyer in Seattle these are the ones I will call.

OU Adonis
6/18/2008, 10:01 AM
If you read the seattle forums their posters thing they are pwning us.

Collier11
6/18/2008, 10:15 AM
If you read the seattle forums their posters thing they are pwning us.

how can they be pwning us if we arent there? All they are doing is arguing in circles the same stupid sh*t that is going to lose them this court case

poke4christ
6/18/2008, 10:31 AM
I'm sure he would.

But even if Lord David wasn't dictat...err commissioner of the NBA, there's no way any prospective owner would relocate an existing team or start up an expansion team in Seattle because of this scorched Earth policy the city is engaging in in this suit.

It boggles my mind how short sighted these tactics are.

Absolutly. In the long run, Seattle is hurting itself. This isn't just going to affect NBA teams coming there. It's going to affect other buisness as well. Who wants to headquarter a buisness there when the city leaders act like this?

poke4christ
6/18/2008, 10:41 AM
Man, this whole thing just ****es me off. Of course Bennett and others bought the team with the intent of moving them, but it was sold to them with full knowledge of that. The city and the former owners are acting like they were decieved somehow, because of this, Bennett has to act like he really wanted to keep the team in Seattle. I just don't have a good feeling about this one.

badger
6/18/2008, 10:48 AM
If you read the seattle forums their posters thing they are pwning us.

Pwning, eh? I may have to profile them next :rolleyes:

Some fanbases think they have good message board communities. Those fanbases have never been to SoonerFans.com. I will definitely check them out later.

Until then, here is your "moment of zen," another shot of Seattle Sonic fandom:

http://www.saveoursonics.org/Portals/16/wheressos/Kemp.jpg
Hi, I'm Troy McClure. You may remember me from such fiascos as "My Baby Mama's Suing Me for Child Support," "Another Baby Mama's Suing Me" and "Does this Lockout Make Me Look Fat?" Today I'm standing here to support the team that traded me to the Cavs, where my career sunk into further obscurity.

Associated Press: Overview of Bennett testimony (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gi68etltLiETJ2AmBVtpMVIQWHEgD91C3PUO0)

I can see why Seattle thinks they're pwning us - it is hard to argue with evidence that strongly suggests foul play on Bennett's part to keep the Sonics in Seattle or at least make an effort. However, after the Nickels showing yesterday, Bennett definitely came off better... but Bennett needed a better show than Nickels did.

NewsOk: Meanwhile back in Oklahoma City... (http://newsok.com/capitol-briefs/article/3258814/)

Look at the right side of the screen, not the story itself, and you will see that work to improve the Ford Center continues. I don't think that they'll be able to convince courts that the Sonics need to move if Bennett doesn't retain ownership, but then again, I don't think there's going to be any problem on that front. Mr. Starbucks is trying to save face with Seattle (not like liberals like corporate coffee, anyways)

Seattle Times: More of the Same Piled High and Deeper (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008003427_sonitrial18.html)

Local media will give you more quotations than the AP report, so I'm including them also. Seattle likes to be included, because they so clearly are excluded from everything important. Poor coastal elite :rolleyes:

Seattle P-I: This columnist thinks he knows what's going on. (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/thiel/367444_thiel18.html?source=mypi)

So, it is clear to Mr. Columnist that there was no intent to stay in Seattle. I think he is confusing the NBA's intent with the Sonic's intent - there is plently of incentive to not move a business. There's moving costs, operation costs that are unknown in a new area and the added mystery of revenue that isn't as much of a mystery in an established area all lend ot the argument that you should stay instead of go. The fact that Seattle would not cooperate, as he so clearly pointed out... well, in that case, you have to go.

The Journal Record: Bricktown's woes (http://blogs.journalrecord.com/persquarefoot/2008/06/17/waiting-on-the-supersonics/)

Screw Seattle, we all know the west coast is going to eventually sink into the Pacific. Let's talk OKC, shall we? The Journal Record said that businesses are more reluctant to move in when they're not sure if the cash cow's coming to town... the cash being the Sonics, the cow being the Sonics fans. Oooooo, insulty insulty! Just kidding, we all know that Sonic fans are not cows... unless they are Seattle Sonic fans. Ooooo, dissed again. The worst part about these coastal elite cows is that when you grill them, they aren't hamburgers. They're crappy tofu burgers. OUCH!! Oh well, we're quite confident that your cows will be happy to graze without the Sonics in their backyard. They're far more impressed with the better fundamentals than the ability to dunk. Hello, Seattle Storm fans! Moo. :D

...sorry, just mocking their Oklahoma City insults, which are quite pathetic. To read more of these insults, hop onto any NewsOK Sonic-related story. Would you like links?

Linky one! (http://newsok.com/article/3256107)
Actual story: NBA D-League allignment to Tulsa instead of Idaho for Sonics.
Reader Comment Highlights: Someone poses as a Seattle fan by acting gay.

Link two! (http://newsok.com/two-sides-ready-legal-strategies-in-sonics-case/article/3256743)
Ack: Two sides prepare for trial to determine Sonics future
Highlights: Seattle master debaters suddenly change argument from "KeyArena upgrades" to "Take the Grizzlies!"

Link three (http://web.newsok.com/article/3257703?topten_check=yes)
Ack: The trial begins today.
Highlights: The dude that doesn't realize the CAPS lock is on... "HOPEFULLY THE SONICS DON'T MOVE AT ALL BECAUSE CLAY BENNETT DOESN'T DESERVE A NBA TEAM FIND A HONEST OKC OWNER WHO IS WILLING TO APPLY FOR A EXPANSION FRANCHISE THEN I WILL CHANGE MY MIND ABOUT SUPPORTING NBA BASKETBALL.AS LONG AS THAT CROOK CLAY BENNETT IS IN CHARGE FORGET ABOUT IT BUT YOU PEOPLE ARE SO DESPERATE FOR A NBA TEAM THAT HE IS NOW A HERO TO YOU AND THE ONLY REASON THE RELOCATION PLAN WENT THROUGH IS BECAUSE THE OTHER OWNERS ARE KISSING DAVID STER'S BUTT TO MAKE SURE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN SEATTLE DOESN'T HAPPEN TO THEM"

Link 4 (http://web.newsok.com/article/3258072/)
Ack: The first day of testimony from Seattly mayor Greg Nickels
Highlights: This guy right here :rolleyes: "Stupid inbreds......Stay the hell out of our city!!!Go back to raping your sisters or, brothers or, whatever the hell you guys do for fun down there...You are sooooo out of your league on this one....No one wants to move to your redneck,inbred,sheep loving,cow tipping,meth head,dust bowl state....JUST GO AWAY!!!! "

As you can see the paydirt gets more priceless closer to the present, because they remove the more funny comments after people hit "Report Offensive Comment," lol.

Until next time, when we profile "The Typical Sonic fan," this has been SONICWATCH, live from Tulsa, where there is more rain here than in Seattle. Take THAT and shove it up yo' Space Needle ;)

poke4christ
6/18/2008, 12:56 PM
Here's what also ****es me off. The entire Seattle argument that I've read is solely based on Bennett supposedly not making a good faith effort to keep the team there. However, there only argument against that are some emails that supposedly show his intent. News flash guys, intent does not equal action. To quote Batman Begins, "it's not what it inside that makes us who we are, it's what we do". Did Bennett try to keep the team in Seattle according to action? He repeatedly tried to get a new arena despite the legislature turning him down. I would call that the required action.

Also, the entire idea that he somehow broke the contract is completly subjective. To side with Seattle for somthing so subjective is questionable judgement at best.

RedStripe
6/18/2008, 01:41 PM
Here's what also ****es me off. The entire Seattle argument that I've read is solely based on Bennett supposedly not making a good faith effort to keep the team there. However, there only argument against that are some emails that supposedly show his intent. News flash guys, intent does not equal action. To quote Batman Begins, "it's not what it inside that makes us who we are, it's what we do". Did Bennett try to keep the team in Seattle according to action? He repeatedly tried to get a new arena despite the legislature turning him down. I would call that the required action.

Also, the entire idea that he somehow broke the contract is completly subjective. To side with Seattle for somthing so subjective is questionable judgement at best.

Also I would think the "good faith" contract would have to include phrasing that Bennett et all cannot inquire about moving the team; to the NBA or look at arena's out of state. That would be the only way Schultz could win, yes?

Sooner_Havok
6/18/2008, 02:05 PM
Also I would think the "good faith" contract would have to include phrasing that Bennett et all cannot inquire about moving the team; to the NBA or look at arena's out of state. That would be the only way Schultz could win, yes?

They are saying he stopped trying to secure funding for an arena after 6 months instead of 12. If I were the Sonic's attorneys I would ask Clay "Would the state legislature have met again within 6 months?"

badger
6/18/2008, 03:33 PM
ESPN: Covering the Seattleites outside the courtroom (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=neel/080618&sportCat=nba)

Sooo, Xavier McDaniel and Gary Payton (as earlier photographic evidence in SONICWATCH showed) returned to Seattle, eh? One begs the question - where have they been?

Oh, yeah! Gary Payton left Seattle by trade for Ray Allen, which Seattle cheered heartily. Payton then left after screwjobbing the team he was traded to by only staying a few month to get his ring in L.A. (failure!) and then to Miami, where he got his ring.

Sooo... Gary Payton wants his jersey in the rafters in Seattle, eh? What makes you think that Oklahoma City would ever want to honor a jerk as arrogant as you, Payton? And why, do tell, would Seattle want to retire the jersey of a player such as yourself? Are they lowering the standards for jersey retirement now? Is it simply suffice to be an All-Star on a no-championship team for a few years? Oh, but you had some good records in Seattle, you say. You took them to the Finals, you say. Well, so did a lot of other players... but if Seattle suddenly starts caring about basketball again because you got your jersey up there, more power to you!

Which brings us to the question: Why does Seattle care about basketball now? Is it because their team might not suck anymore with these top draft choices? Is it because somebody else wants them more than you do now? Are we taking away the toy that you never played with until somebody else wanted it?

Oklahoma City has a certain effect on the NBA, it seems. The second you want your franchise to get more hometown support, plan to move it to OKC. It worked for the Hornets! New Orleans suddenly cares about basketball again! Now, will it work for Seattle... hmmm...

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Sports/dbb5da55-e9e5-4b75-858b-c93fcf6d1fda_ms.jpeg
Photo caption: NBA commissioner David Stern pictured here presenting Sonics owner Clay Bennett with the second-annual "Oklahoma City Star" award, presented to the owner who generates the most hometown interest in the worst franchises.

:rolleyes: SAVE OUR SONICS! SAVE OUR SONICS! What exactly are you saving your Sonics from, Seattle? From leaving town? The team is leaving in the next two years. From the name being taken by a different city? They've already said you can keep the name "Sonics." From the tyranny of the NBA? There's no reason for the NBA to support Seattle when Seattle won't even support a team enough to go to games.

Sooo... Seattle. What are you saving again? You have nothing left to save. The players, coaches and NBA-ness is leaving town, in this year or the next. You're not losing the "Sonics" name, so you can't save that. Your fan support is abysmal at worst, mediocre at best, so you can't say that you're saving the Sonics from inevitable - a team will leave a town that isn't supporting it.

Mixer!
6/18/2008, 03:58 PM
badger: I'd like to read a compare & contrast take on seattle sonics fans vs. cleveland browns/hoston oilers/baltimore colts/l.a. raiders fans when they lost their team(s).

IMO while the NBA is talking tough to seattle now, I'd think they'd be back there in a heartbeat if a new association-approved arena suddenly materialized.

Something else the seattle-ites are not understanding: it's not an okc vs. seattle fight, it's an NBA vs. seattle fight. If not Bennett, it could easily be someone from KC that the other owners approved to own the franchise. Or the NBA could've voted to contract the franchise following the 2009/2010 season, and keep the name & the records to themselves (ala the NFL with the Titans & Texans).
:pop:

hurricane'bone
6/18/2008, 04:18 PM
badger: I'd like to read a compare & contrast take on seattle sonics fans vs. cleveland browns/hoston oilers/baltimore colts/l.a. raiders fans when they lost their team(s).

IMO while the NBA is talking tough to seattle now, I'd think they'd be back there in a heartbeat if a new association-approved arena suddenly materialized.

Something else the seattle-ites are not understanding: it's not an okc vs. seattle fight, it's an NBA vs. seattle fight. If not Bennett, it could easily be someone from KC that the other owners approved to own the franchise. Or the NBA could've voted to contract the franchise following the 2009/2010 season, and keep the name & the records to themselves (ala the NFL with the Titans & Texans).
:pop:


What?

badger
6/18/2008, 04:32 PM
badger: I'd like to read a compare & contrast take on seattle sonics fans vs. cleveland browns/hoston oilers/baltimore colts/l.a. raiders fans when they lost their team(s).

IMO while the NBA is talking tough to seattle now, I'd think they'd be back there in a heartbeat if a new association-approved arena suddenly materialized.

Something else the seattle-ites are not understanding: it's not an okc vs. seattle fight, it's an NBA vs. seattle fight. If not Bennett, it could easily be someone from KC that the other owners approved to own the franchise. Or the NBA could've voted to contract the franchise following the 2009/2010 season, and keep the name & the records to themselves (ala the NFL with the Titans & Texans).
:pop:

Mixer, I agree that it is indeed troubling that Seattle is bashing Oklahoma City and Oklahomans in general on this, which is why my comments regarding Seattle have probably gotten progressively worse. I have reviewed several Sonic message boards today and will be perform a severe audit on them later on SONICWATCH. I am not from Oklahoma but upon graduation, I had a lot of yearbook sigs from high school classmates saying "Don't get sucked into a Twister" or something to do with tornadoes. Clearly, Oklahoma could benefit from some mainstream sports on this front.

There are numerous cases out there where teams that left had parts of them left behind, but I would have to research them more to see if this was a gentleman's agreement or part of a lawsuit.

However, off the bat, I would have to assume that the reason why hurricanebone highlighted your statement "Or the NBA could've voted to contract the franchise following the 2009/2010 season, and keep the name & the records to themselves (ala the NFL with the Titans & Texans)." is because the Houston Oilers became the Tennessee Oilers temporarily. Remember how they had a team naming contest a few years later to become the Tennessee Titans? There was no agreement to leave the Oilers name, uniforms, etc. behind. In fact, they looked every bit (mediocre) like the Houston Oilers when they moved to Tennessee. Same uniforms, same helmets, etc.

http://www.logoserver.com/football/TennesseeOilers97a.GIF
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0aUDajUdKqfkn/340x.jpg
Notice the patch on the player's left shoulder - it's the logo image from above. For the record, that dude's Tennessee Oilers center Mark Stepnoski :D

Thanks for the ideas. This trial is lasting too long and the draft is still days away. The Sonics CEO spoke today, I'll poke it a little tomorrow when the wire reports are more excessive.

Mixer!
6/18/2008, 05:30 PM
The Tennessee Oilers also played in Memphis' Liberty Bowl while their new digs were being completed in Nashville. Memphians HATED being looked at as baby sitters for a Nashville team, and did little to nothing to support it. The result? The NFL has stated that Memphis will NOT get a team for the forseeable future. LA & Toronto will get teams before Memphis ever will.




Of course, a new billion dollar stadium and a billion dollar entry fee would make all the bitter feelings go away.
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8338/pickens2pk7xj4.gif

badger
6/18/2008, 05:43 PM
The Tennessee Oilers also played in Memphis' Liberty Bowl while their new digs were being completed in Nashville. Memphians HATED being looked at as baby sitters for a Nashville team, and did little to nothing to support it. The result? The NFL has stated that Memphis will NOT get a team for the forseeable future. LA & Toronto will get teams before Memphis ever will.

Of course, a new billion dollar stadium and a billion dollar entry fee would make all the bitter feelings go away.
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8338/pickens2pk7xj4.gif

Knowing a little sportiness, I can report that while the NFL rejected them, another "pro" football league didn't:
http://cdn.overstock.com/images/products/P10763577.jpg
Long live the XFL!

There are other instances of this, like Chicago Bears playing at the Illini's Stadium while the new fangled Soldier Field went up (pictures make it look awful, but it looks fine on television). There are also instances of teams scheduling a game each year in another town, such as Green Bay making the trip to Milwaukee to play (thus creating some season tix friction among the Milwaukee bunch, more on that in some other football-related thread someday).

This is exactly why Tulsa should rejoice in OKC having a good opportunity to have an NBA team. The team might not be headed for Tulsa, and OKC might hog the naming rights, but there's a very good chance for some games in Tulsa (which, I remind you, is the only Oklahoma city that is guaranteed to have the NBA in town this upcoming season).

badger
6/19/2008, 10:32 AM
Good morning and welcome to the calm before the next series of storms... why are we getting all this rain in June?

Unfortunately, unlike yesterday's promise to profile Sonic fan sites, I do not have adequate resources to do them proper justice at this time. Therefore, I will take a previous suggestion to profile recent sports teams leaving town... but FIRST!

The Olympian: Woe is us, Losercity, USA (http://www.columbian.com/sports/localNews/2008/06/06192008_Commentary-Seattle-is-long-way-from-Titletown.cfm)

As previously stated, the Sonics have won exactly one title and it's getting older every lottery season. This column laments the fact that Seattle is a losing city, unlike those crazies in Boston. BTW, BOOOOO BOSTON! :D

Seattle Times: 5 1/2 luxury seats (of 48) leased last season (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sonics/2008005569_sonics19m.html)

Hold up a sec... wasn't Seattle's "Save Our Sonics" group claiming that they were more high income than OKC and would have more spending power? Flashback to early days of television: Bonanza was the highest rated television show and its viewers definitely had money. Unfortunately, Bonanza was canceled because these viewers didn't spend money on the show's advertisers. Flash forward to today's era of sports: If Sonic fans don't spend money on one of the most popular leagues, cancel the show!

Seattle Times: Fans are pathetic (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008005572_sonictrialside19.html)

Whoops, I'm sorry, that last headline should read: "Fans are apathetic." Hehe, sorry about that typo there. Keyboard malfunction.

Seattle P-I: Reporter's lament on court hush-hush proceedings and how much money the attorneys make per minute. (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/moore/367565_moore19.html)

So, you get scolded for coughing too much in court, eh? Looks like those rallies with Gary Payton and Xavier McDaniel are more fun to cover, anyways.

Seattle P-I: The picture of Bennett making the funny board rounds (http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/thebigblog/archives/141473.asp)

The person who took this picture will win a "Save Our Sonics" community service award. Unfortunately, since the Sonics will be gone, this award will be one for the garbage can, not the Pulitzer shelf.

NewsOK: DOWN GOES BENNETT,DOWN GOES BENNETT,DOWN GOES BENNETT,DOWN GOES BENNETT (http://newsok.com/bennett-finishes-testimony-in-seattle/article/3259183/)

We only link NewsOK now for the online reader comments section. Check out today's humor, as well as a Portlander admitting that the lawyer sitting next to him in the courtroom thinks Seattle's going to have to take a buyout.

In any event, as you read these stories today, you can see that there is absolutely no shenanigans being revealed here, nor is there any new info that's headline-worthy (except for the "Fans are pathetic" er, "apathetic" one, lol). The trial is expected to wrap up Monday... hey! That's the same day as the draft! They really are screwing each other, aren't they?

Stern: With the fourth pick, the *coughnowayI'msayingSeattle*cough* SuperSonics select... Marcus Dove, of Oklahoma State!
Bennett (from Seattle courtroom): NOOOOO, you idiots! You were supposed to pick him in the SECOND round, NOT NOW!
Dove: Woooot! Guaranteed money contract AND no more Stillwater!
Seattle: You can have the Sonics, we're finished.
Bennett: Excuse me, Mr. Starbucks and Mr. Microsoft? Would you like to reconsider buying the Sonics?
Both: NO!
---
Sports teams moving can cause more than draft day snafus, as history has shown. The case of the Sonics possibly leaving Seattle early most directly parallels the Cleveland Browns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Browns).

1946: Unlike popular belief and fellow Ohio sportsteam Cinci Reds, the Browns are actually not named for the color, but for former Ohio State coach Paul Brown, no actually, that's a myth. There was a fan naming contest, which the winner was "Brown Bombers" after heavyweight boxer Joe Louis, but shortened to the "Browns" ...so you can quit the jokes about them actually being Orange, oh unfunny rants of Tuesday Morning Quarterback at ESPN.com. They started as an All American Footall League team, but were always based in Cleveland.

Cleveland...Rams?: The Browns were so popular (and they were winning AAFL championships and only lost four games in the AAFL, so it can be understood why) that the NFL's Rams were moving to LA, despite giving Cleveland an NFL championship in 1945, the same year they moved. So yes, Cleveland once was a winner. Oh, and they had one home since starting in 1946 - Cleveland Municipal Stadium.

New stadium discourse: Well, they had one home since 1946, but this had to end. Cleveland had become the losers that they are largely known as today (and yes, I know they nearly made the playoffs this year, but do you really equate Cleveland as a winning team despite this? Didn't think so!). Cleveland actually had a winning team in 1994, with a 11-5 record, but owner Art Modell had his own plans up his sleeve to move out of aging Municipal Stadium: the sucker punch.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c2/Modell_move.jpg

Art the Enemy: Unlike the Sonics Clay Bennett, Modell actually had a lengthy ownership with the Browns in Cleveland. He owned them since 1961 and (spoiler alert!) owned the new reincarnation Ravens through 2004. Upon announcing that the Browns would move to Baltimore, giving Baltimore the NFL back for the first time since 1983 whent he Colts moved to Indy, the Cleveland taxpayers immediately approved a stadium refurbishing package. The package was Art's idea... but why announce a move to Baltimore the day before the tax came to a vote? Art was indeed the enemy and this was a sucker punch that Cleveland fans would not settle with.

Cleveland revolt: Fans filed hundreds of lawsuits against Art and brought to the forefront the issue - do cities own teams, or do owners? Were the Browns Art Modell's, or were they Cleveland's? Drew Carey, noted Cleveland fanatic, was on the fan's side in this argument of course, the defacto leader of the "Dawg Pound," the blue collar bleachers of Municipal Stadium, was on talk shows and television interviews giving the official opinion of Cleveland Browns fans everywhere, and even the rival Pittsburg Steelers were on Cleveland's side - because after all, there's only rivalries if there's another team to fight with. If Texas moved to the SEC and we suddenly were only going to play them once every four years, OU fans would take ownership. Portland Blazers fans are also reacting to this lawsuit with the Sonics in this way - Bennett is stealing their I-5 rivalry by moving to OKC.

The settlement: The NFL reached an agreement that Art the Enemy could move players and personnel to Baltimore. However, all team records and the name would stay in Cleveland. This was not court-ordered, this was an agreement between city officials in Cleveland and Baltimore and the NFL. However, the NFL felt extreme guilt for the way they allowed Art to leave, and promised three years of inactivity and a new expansion team following that. In that time, Cleveland tore down Municipal Stadium and rebuilt it as "Cleveland Browns Stadium." The rebuilding might have been necessary - there was a lot of violence and fires on the last game of the 95 season, especially from the Dawgs.

Legacy: The Cleveland Browns case will be remembered as a case of fans vs. owners when determining ownership. The problems started when the host city would not work with the owner to improve the venue. The owner then looked for a host city that would, which led to the owner vs. fans dispute.

History also shows that fans, players and personnel have a connection with the host city as opposed to the business franchise - Baltimore Colts fans and legend Johnny Unitas have said that they feel that the Ravens are the successor of the Colts, not the Indy version. Browns fans, meantime, have a new rivalry with the Ravens. OU legend Greg Pruitt who played most of his career with the Browns, for example, said that he couldn't bring himself to cheer for the Ravens. This was despite the fact that his son, Greg Pruitt Jr., played for the Ravens. We can expect the same out of Sonic fans. Don't expect anyone to fly in from Seattle to OKC. And yes, Gary Payton, we aren't planning to raise your Seattle Sonics jersey to our rafters. However, you are free to have it risen at an empty KeyArena where no pro basketball team will be playing. :D

[WNBA fan]But our better fundamentals make up for our inability to dunk![/WNBA fan]

See what watching Family Guy does to you? ;)

The case of the Browns also shows that differences can be settled outside the courts despite fan resentment, public outcry and numerous ongoing lawsuits. There was no legal ruling to keep "Browns" in Cleveland, nor was the NFL required to give Cleveland another team after the Browns players and personnel left. Rather, the cities worked together with management and the league to make the best case scenario for both sides happen.

So, what does this mean for the Sonics? Not only does it mean that history favors Oklahoma City, but it also favors Seattle.
http://www.imt.net/~joe/matt/NBA/images/hornets.gif
I'll make this more brief than the Browns: The Hornets were named after the city's fierce resistance to British occupation in the Revolutionary War. They had huge fan support to begin with in basketball heaven of North Carolina. However, George Shinn was not an accused rapist (think back to Kobe getting dropped by McDonalds and Sprite - the NBA fans don't like accused rapists) and attendance dropped despite good team performance. Shinn moved the Hornets to New Orleans in 2002.

The Sonics can also learn from the Hornets that fandom is fickle - you screw with your fanbase, you screw with your chances of future success. Shinn didn't take every opportunity to capitalize on the Hornets early success in Charlotte.

http://www.ballpimp.com/images/bobcat.jpg
Remember also, weary Seattle fans, that shuld a new frachise pop up in Seattle, you must show it support or there's no guarantee that you'll keep it. The Bobcats (named for owner and BET founder Robert Johnson) are having moderate success, but are certainly not getting any accolades from North Carolina for bringing the NBA back. They are ranked near the lowest in the league in attendance. I don't have 2007-08 numbers, but 06-07 was 25th with about 15,000 (19,000 capacity) average attendance.

So, Sonic fans both future and present, receive your NBA team as a blessing. Your team can lead the league in attendance for seven straight seasons, then drop to last before you lose your franchise. A new franchise needs fan support to survive and won't get by just because it's new.

Seattle might think of Oklahoma City as it's enemy right now, but history shows otherwise. A resolution that's in everyone's interest can happen. It's just a matter of compromise, which will only happen when both sides meet in the middle.

badger
6/19/2008, 10:51 AM
PS: Other teams to move:
http://www.eventimagecenter.com/300x180/los_angeles_clippers300.jpg
Moved from San Diego in 1984 because of declining attendance and sale to a new owner.

http://www.eventimagecenter.com/300x180/memphis_grizzlies300x180.jpg
Moved from Vancouver in 2001 because of declining attendance and sale to a new owner... and possible because of an awfully sheedy logo.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a1/Sacramento_Kings_logo.png/200px-Sacramento_Kings_logo.png
Moved from Kansas City in 1985 because of declining attendance and fairly recentsale to new owner, but mostly because of a really really bad facility that had the roof cave in only a few years back.

Do we notice a pattern emerging here? :)

r5TPsooner
6/19/2008, 01:39 PM
They won't be here next season.

badger
6/19/2008, 02:42 PM
They won't be here next season.

Care to expand on this?

Collier11
6/19/2008, 02:50 PM
If the judge rules on the 26th that the lease can be bought out they will be here unless there is a long drawn out appeal which would not be in the best interest of the city of Seattle

Cam
6/19/2008, 03:01 PM
If the judge rules on the 26th that the lease can be bought out they will be here unless there is a long drawn out appeal which would not be in the best interest of the city of Seattle

The current trial isn't in the best interest of Seattle. My bet is that they'd file an immediate appeal.

IMO, they've screwed whatever chance they had at getting an expansion franchise in the near future. But then again, they'll have new city officials then so you never know.

Dio
6/19/2008, 03:16 PM
What's to keep the league from folding the Sonics, then giving the PBC an "expansion" team in OKC in 2009 or 2010? Might actually save the PBC a few million in operating losses in the meantime, even though they would lose the rights to the current Sonic players. I'm not advocating it, just thinking out loud....

OU Adonis
6/19/2008, 06:34 PM
What's to keep the league from folding the Sonics, then giving the PBC an "expansion" team in OKC in 2009 or 2010? Might actually save the PBC a few million in operating losses in the meantime, even though they would lose the rights to the current Sonic players. I'm not advocating it, just thinking out loud....

I think the concern from the league would be if Seattle from pressing some sort of Anti-trust case.

Dio
6/20/2008, 07:36 AM
I think the concern from the league would be if Seattle from pressing some sort of Anti-trust case.

They do seem to enjoy going to court, even if they're not very good at it.

badger
6/20/2008, 09:59 AM
I think the concern from the league would be if Seattle from pressing some sort of Anti-trust case.

Professional sports leagues are legalized monopolies, pretty much. Some leagues, such as the WNBA and the MLS, for example, have centralized ownership where teams can fold without much warning. However, I don't foresee the NBA going in this direction anytime soon, even to punish a lawsuity town like Seattle.

But, arguments are on schej to end today (Friday) so let's get it over with, shall we?

Seattle Times: "The great thing about basketball is they're barely wearing any clothes." (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/jerrybrewer/2008007798_brewer20.html)

It would be a lot less funny if I were making that up, but those were the exact words quoted in the Seattle Times attributed to Seattle fanboy and author Sherman Alexie, earlier profiled here at SONICWATCH.

Seattle P-I: The city rests (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/367777_trial20.html?source=mypi)

About time, right? Only $3.5 million in the hole from this mess!

Seattle P-I: City attorney Q&A (http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/sonicstrial/archives/141612.asp?from=blog_last3)

"There's no basketball team or comparable team that could fill KeyArena the way the Sonics can." I'm going to save the usual WNBA joke that I place in here, because better fundamentals really do make up for the inability to dunk! ...dang it :mad:

Associated Press: 1,200 jorbs for Seattle lost if Sonics lost (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3452509)

NOW who will buy our 1/1000th scale replica Space Needle souveniors, and who will sell them? The Mariners suck right now, so we need the Sonic economy boom!

NewsOK: More gold from online comment wars (http://newsok.com/seattle-rests-its-case-in-sonics-trial/article/3259503/)

Today's token NewsOK.com comment: "in the great voice of Howard Cosell)DOWN GOES BENNETT,DOWN GOES BENNETT,DOWN GOEAS BENNETT,DOWN GOES BENNETT.HE WON'T GET OUT OF THE CORNER FOR THE 15TH ROUND AND THE SONICS WILL REMAIN IN SEATTLE FOREVER AND WHILE UNCLE CLAYBOY IS GOING TO HAVE TO PAY BACK HIS WIFE ALL THE SHE SPENT ON HIM FOR THIS HUMILATING LOSS"

:rolleyes:

Let's talk draft, shall we? As stated earlier, OSU's Marcus Dove is a projected second rounder for the Sonics (http://newsok.com/seattle-fighting-losing-battle/article/3257920/?tm=1213588129). OU's most improved player of the century Longar Longar is also projected for the second round, but unfortunately, I have seen nothing tying him to the Sonics on the wire... yet. Seattle's keeping them preoccupied on this lawsuit dealio, methinks. I personally would love to see them tie the NBA and Oklahoma's state basketball programs together more, because second rounders are just D-League and bench fillers anyways. On a few occasions, you'll find a Sam Cassell or a Dennis Rodman or a Michael Redd, but on most occasions, it wouldn't hurt to drum up the local fan support :D


KTUV: Draft preview for Sonics (http://www.ktvu.com/nba/16663287/detail.html)

Once again, the Sonics have a total of six picks (two first, four second) and the draft is Monday. Let's hope the Sonics have a team working on draft needs as well as the lawsuits.

NBADraft.net: Another Sonics draft preview (http://nbadraft.net/2008stateofthecapseattle001.asp)

For those who love statistics, here's one that we haven't had on here yet: $9.6 million. The 08-09 payroll is $48.4 million. If the cap is $58 million, that leaves $9.6 mil left in play money. My guess is that we aren't going to lure any free agents to the Sonics when they don't know which town to call home yet.

In my humbly humble opinion, I fully expect the Sonics to take Bayless at No. 4. At No. 24, they'll take a foreign-born tall guy who can play both power and center. In the second round, I would much rather they find a quality center (read: "DRAFT LONGAR LONGAR") than waste another first round pick on a center like they have in recent years. They are safer with a foreign prospect, it seems, because no matter who it is, they usually have a good mid range jump shot, even if they can't post worth shizzle. The rest of the draft can be filled in with role players to compete for sixth man. I think Marcus Dove would be an OK selection (even though he'll be available following the draft for free).

I certainly hope that OJ Mayo is not in our future, because even if he's a successful player, would you want to cheer for him? I have a bitter USC cheatin' taste in my mouth and don't want to be associated with that. If Bayless goes in the top 3, look for DJ Augustin or something. NO MAYO WITH MY SONIC SANDWICH!

Closing, here is your token shot of pathetic (er, "apathetic") Seattle fans. Why are you fans of a league that is "not about fans?"
http://bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0044/7166/sonics_rally_article.jpg
Until next time, live from Tulsa, where fireworks will lite our Double A Drillers Stadium tonight, this has been SONICWATCH.

...where were all these fans when the team needed them this season? LOL @ them for putting a dollar sign in front of the word "NOT." The NBA: It... s'not about fans.

Dio
6/20/2008, 12:24 PM
I wonder how collusion by the city will affect that specific performance clause?

Read from the bottom up


10:05 a.m. - Also in the document “So it is a pincer movement: increasing the Oklahomans costs in an unpleasant environment while increasing the league’s belief that an alternative solution gains it a good new owner and keeps it in a desirable market.” Taylor asks if they wanted to force the team to sell in order to get a “good owner” and if that’s why Ballmer was at the meeting. Walker again responding, only saying they wanted a solution to keep the team in Seattle. Under “immediate next steps” section, it says “Gorton, et. al, increase pain of staying (financial and reputation).

9:57 a.m. - The “poisoned well” document is presented . Lawrence objects that this is a City plan or document. He offers to make it a continuing objection to speed up proceedings. Lawrence says it’s a hearsay document. Taylor says as of this date, Walker had been retained as an expert by the City. The document is admitted by the judge. In a section called “The Path Forward”, the document says “For the best likely outcome, two things have to happen next: Oklahomans have to be willing to sell and the public folks have to do the right thing. Walker is not agreeing that’s what he said. Further down, there is a subsection called “Make Them Sell,” which outlines the plan: “The critical path is to separate the NBA from the Oklahomans.” Walker responded that if an arena solution was not reached, the NBA would have to sign off on KeyArena. Walker then finally says that if the team intended to move, then yes, this was the best way to keep the Sonics in town. Walker goes back to say that they preferred to get an arena deal done here. Taylor asks if the goal was to make the PBC lose money, to which Walker says no.

9:50 a.m. - Taylor says in the meeting, there was discussion about wanting to get “the Oklahomans” to sell the team. Walker says the goal was to keep the team in Seattle and there was nothing else to do but hope the PBC would sell the team.

9:45 a.m. - Taylor is asking why an earlier draft of this document hasn't been found anywhere. An e-mail sent October 5, 2007 from Linda Jacobs of K&L Gates to Walker, McGavick and Gorton says "Here's the latest draft... It's not pretty, but the master that I'm working off of looks much better. If you have revisions, please call us." This is two days before the "poisoned well" meeting as Taylor calls it.

9:41 a.m. - As Taylor tries to admit an e-mail from Walker to McGavick on Sept. 23, 2007, Lawrence objects as heresay. After an exchange with the judge, Lawrence asks if he can add something else, and Judge Pechman sternly says "no."

9:35 a.m. - Taylor now asking about an October 7, 2007 meeting at Walker’s home. Also there was Slade Gorton, former U.S. Senator from Washington state and current lawyer for K&L Gates. Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer was also present and former Safeco executive Mike McGavick. Taylor now brings up a document that was titled “The Sonics Challenge: Why a poisoned well presents a unique opportunity.”

http://www.king5.com/sports/stories/NW_062008SSB_fri_sonics_trial_minute_by_minute_TP. 1cf65f0b.html

Sooner_Havok
6/20/2008, 01:41 PM
The rough estimate is 90 percent-10 percent on the objection battle in favor of the Sonics throughout the trial.

Ahh, almost make me want to cry. Maybe the Sonics' lawyers just know what the **** they are doing.

Sooner_Havok
6/20/2008, 01:48 PM
I wonder how collusion by the city will affect that specific performance clause?

Read from the bottom up


http://www.king5.com/sports/stories/NW_062008SSB_fri_sonics_trial_minute_by_minute_TP. 1cf65f0b.html

Hah, they want you to become members now to see their ****ty news. :pop:

Sooner_Havok
6/20/2008, 01:52 PM
Lawrence shows frustration -- prepaing for appeal?


In his questioning of Wally Walker, City attorney Paul Lawrence was asking Walker questions about his basketball career and Judge Marsha Pechman kept interrupting, saying she was around in 1970s and 80s and remembers Walker as a player. Finally, Lawrence looked at Pechman and said he was asking these questions in trying to prepare a record for "appeal."

Meaning 1) The City does not feel good about this case and 2) They obviously plan for an appeal, which may delay a potential Sonics move. It is uncertain if the NBA would allow the Sonics to move during an appeal process.

Prepaing for appeal appears to be a customary process but it's apparent that the City is not as confident about its case as it might have been a few days ago. Walker did not reveal about 700 e-mails for the case until Monday

It is like they sit around and think "What could we do to hurt our chances of ever getting an NBA team more?"

Scott D
6/20/2008, 02:17 PM
everyone I personally know in the Seattle area feels they can't get rid of the NBA fast enough.

Sooner_Havok
6/20/2008, 02:23 PM
everyone I personally know in the Seattle area feels they can't get rid of the NBA fast enough.

Well, they aren't getting rid of it quickly, but they are sure as hell making sure it never comes back.

On a side note, I wish Clay hadn't sold the Storm, Tulsa is going to have a pretty new arena that needs something.:D

badger
6/20/2008, 02:29 PM
It is like they sit around and think "What could we do to hurt our chances of ever getting an NBA team more?"

I am not sure that is their goal anymore. When two sides fight, usually the only way to make someone stop wanting to fight is to make them think that they've won... to whatever extent qualifies as "winning."

When the writers went on strike, of course Hollywood would not cave to their every demand. However, not caving to everything qualifies as a "win." Meanwhile, the writers getting a better deal than they had before qualifies as a "win." Thus, the billions of dollars industry continues and they still have jobs tomorrow.

When Oklahoma City gave up the Hornets, they had assurances from the NBA that there would be a new team for them soon as a reward for two great seasons of support. New Orleans got their team back for their "win," while OKC gets promises of their own team later - "win."

Seattle will not give up this fight unless they get something that qualifies as a "win." There is no backing down, now that you've gotten 3,000 street fans protesting, $3.5 million of Seattle city money at attorneys in lawsuits and one of very few pro basketball teams in the country potentially leaving town.

Seattle, in order to get them to stop, needs SOMETHING, anything, in return to qualify as their "win" in this fight. That may or may not involve the Sonics. You think OKC wanted to let the Hornets go? Of course now, but we were willing so long as we would get another team.

So... any ideas on bones to throw to the Seattlers? Remember, all sides need something, so it can't go all-or-nothing either way. Here's a few ideas I can think of:

1- One final season of Sonics instead of the two left on the lease. This way, you can show the NBA you can support a team during this final season to campaign for a future franchise, but at the same OKC will get the Sonics one season sooner (or later, depending on how you look at it) than expected.

2- A specified number of 'lame duck' seasons to rebuild or refurbish KeyArena, with the name and records of the SuperSonics staying in Seattle for a future franchise to come to town. The players and personnel will leave for OKC, but all history of the Seattle basketball remains in Seattle. This is what the NFL did for Cleveland when they lost the Browns to the Ravens.

3- Seattle keeps the Sonics, but a different franchise comes to Oklahoma City. This idea has been tossed out by Seattlers on the infamous comments section on NewsOK. However, because Bennett would come out the "loser" in this situation, unless a local Seattle owner cares to pony up more dough for the team than they're worth, it's not gonna happen.

4- Bennett is compensated for his past two seasons of losing money and sells the franchise to the NBA. The NBA, in turn will help Seattle and Oklahoma City settle their basketball appetites by managing the Sonics during their final two seasons in Seattle, while OKC waits a few more years to have the franchise. This deal does not favor Seattle, so not gonna happen.

5- Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz buys back the Sonics and OKC is awarded an expansion franchise, which Bennett will have first-option to buy. The NBA will come out as big losers, because they have at least two failing franchises (it is debatable, but at least two among Atlanta, Charlotte, Memphis and Seattle) and don't need yet another franchise, so probably not gonna happen.

I tossed out 3-5 as just inspiration for a better idea from the board, but right now, only #1 and #2 are feasible and would satisfy everyone. Granted both situations involve some loses for everyone, but this has to be give-and-take for everyone to "win."

Sooner_Havok
6/20/2008, 02:53 PM
Clay buys the Mariners, than says he will leave them in place so long as the Sonics are allowed to move :D

RedStripe
6/20/2008, 03:35 PM
10:27 a.m. - Another objection by Lawrence, saying a new document to be presented is hearsay. The Judge says it's not hearsay. After a lot of debate, Lawrence agrees with the judge and the objection is overruled.

Their lawyers crack me up.

lawer: Bull****
Judge: No its not.
lawer: But, but.
Judge: Shut up dumb ***.
lawer: Ok.
Judge: dooshe.

Sooner_Havok
6/20/2008, 03:52 PM
Now you know, the rest of the story :D


10:09 a.m. - Some confusion going through Walker's calendar. July 9, 2007, Taylor said Walker met with Gorton, which Walker says he didn't. Taylor says the next day, July 10, Walker met with Seattle Deputy Mayor TIm Ceis, but Walker said he tried to contact him that day but failed. Taylor says the same day, Walker talked to Gorton, but Walker said he talked to Gorton's assistant. Taylor says "you were trying to reach out to Senator Gorton."

10:15 a.m. - An exhibit is presented indicating a correspondence between Gorton and Walker over some "Sonics ideas". Then Taylor shows an e-mail from McGavick regarding some ideas to keep the Sonics that were told to him. "Very Machiavellian stuff that he things might work, or at least be fun. What's Slade got cooking?"

10:20 a.m. - Taylor asks if Walker wanted to stop the PBC from moving to Oklahoma. Walker agreed when asked if he wanted to make it too expensive for them to move. An e-mail is then shown from Walker saying he wanted to "make it too expensive and too litigious" for Sonics majority owner Clay Bennett. Walker also writes that he gets the impression that the City is in total agreement. Walker says in testimony that his impression actually was that the City wanted to enforce the lease.


10:25 a.m. - Taylor asks if Walker had the ability himself to make it too expensive and litigious. He said no. Taylor then asks, isn’t the City the only one that had the ability to make it too expensive and litigious, to which Walker said he could not answer.


10:27 a.m. - Another objection by Lawrence, saying a new document to be presented is hearsay. The Judge says it's not hearsay. After a lot of debate, Lawrence agrees with the judge and the objection is overruled.

10:30 a.m.- Now submitted is an e-mail from John Stanton, a member of the group that offered up a $300 million KeyArena renovation option this past spring. He writes: “Agree completely that it should be excruciating for Clay to consider early departure. At some point they will need Patty (U.S. Sen, Patty Murray) and Maria’s (U.S. Sen. Maria Cantwell) help if this becomes a real fight." Court in recess until 10:45 a.m.

10:48 a.m. - Court back in session. Another e-mail submitted by Walker, dated about a month after Walker was retained by K&L Gates. Lawrence says foundation needs to be layed as to whether Walker was a consultant. Pechman says that has been established. Objection overruled. The e-mail from October 17, 2007 says "WW to NBA to learn reaction." then a subtitle says "WW to do this tomorrow." It shows three tasks, for Walker to do. One of the three is "Learn what the Oklahoma boys are up to and, if there is an opening, continue to drive wedge." Taylor says it was Walker's job to drive a wedge between the PBC and NBA when he met that day with NBA President Joel Litvin. Walker says even though it was his e-mail, "wedge" was not his word.

10:57 a.m. - Taylor done. Lawrence re-directs. Asking Walker more about his playing career, including with the Sonics. At one point, a question is brought up whether Lawrence needs to go into all this. Judge Pechman points out she has seen Walker play. Lawrence continues and Walker answers that he was on the 1979 NBA Championship team with the Sonics. Pechman says "I saw that too." Lawrence shoots back "I appreciate that your honor, but we do have to make a record for our appeal."


1:33 p.m. - Court back in session. Griffin asked if, after reading e-mail, he met with Ballmer. Griffin didn’t recall meeting with Ballmer right afterward. Once they did meet, Griffin said he agreed to start working with Ballmer. Griffin asked if Ballmer had a copy of the powerpoint and did he present a copy to Griffin. Griffin said yes. Griffin adds he received an electronic copy to take with him on a trip to China. Keller shows the powerpoint we've already seen in court. Griffin says it appears to be the same as the one given to him.

11:04 a.m. - Lawrence showing a letter from Bennett to former Sonics owner Howard Schultz saying "We will obviously assume all ot the BCOS' (Schultz owership group) obligations regarding KeyArena." Walker testifies that it was understood that PBC would honor the lease.

11:14 a.m. - Going back over Walker's previous testimony. Walker saying that a July 2007 meeting he had with Gorton was focusing on Gorton's effort to get a Bellevue arena. Walker says the idea was brought to Ballmer's attention in early September. Walker says Ballmer wasn't interested.

11:18 a.m. - Lawrence asking Walker if September 9, 2007 was the first time he saw the powerpoint on the "poisoned well" plan. Walker said it may have been as early as August.

11:25 a.m. - Lawrence has Walker go over his relationship with McGavick. Walker testifies that McGavick was the one who brought him into the powerpoint presentation, not Gorton. Walker says he saw his role in this as just a resource.

11:28 a.m. - Looking again at the powerpoint presentation, Walker testifies he knew at the time the plan was being shown to him, Bennett was seeking arbitration to break the lease. in a subsection called "Operating economics," there are bullet points that include "A white elephant at Seattle Center." Another says "After a long period of brinkmanship, Mayor is now willing to deal and to lead in securing a workable arrangement from other public partners (State and County) for capital investments in facility."

11:34 a.m. - Another objection by the defense, sustained by Pechman. The rough estimate is 90 percent-10 percent on the objection battle in favor of the Sonics throughout the trial.

11:40 a.m. - Under “The Path Forward” section of the plan, there is a subsection called “Close with the City.” Walker goes on to say the City was not aware of this meeting and was not involved. Bullet points within this section include: “Confirm scope of project and basic lease terms;” “Secure Mayor Nickels’ commitment to provide… leadership,” etc.

11:42 a.m. - Walker going over Ballmer's and Griffin's interest in the arena solution. Walker also talks about meeting with NBA President Joel Litvin about securing an arena deal. Walker says his converstions were not about driving a wedge between the league and the PBC.

11:47 a.m. - Lawrence wraps up, asking Walker again if he intended to force the Sonics to sell the team. Walker says no. Lawrence asks if Walker was trying to make the Sonics suffer large economic losses, to which Walker replied he would not have any control over that. Taylor is now re-directing. He's showing an e-mail chain between Walker and Gerry Johnson from K&L Gates showing concern about Walker being deposed. Then another letter is presented dated January 29, 2008, saying Walker was retained as a consultant on October 7, 2007 to assist in representing prospective new ownership of the Sonics and Storm.

11:54 a.m. - Walker is done. Now taking the stand is developer Matt Griffin, who was part of the group who presented the KeyArena renovation plan earlier this year. Brad Keller is questioning him for the PBC. Griffin confirms he was approached by Ballmer in mid-October about the idea.

12:01 p.m. - Keller shows and e-mail forward from Ballmer to Griffin on October 18 asking Griffin if he’s interested, to which Griffin said he was still deciding at the time. The e-mail string he forwarded was originally from Walker to McGavick. On the second page, McGavick writes that Ballmer was to identify an “owner rep” to oversee process on his behalf. Another section of the e-mail string goes back to the Wally Walker tasks, including “driving a wedge”.(See the post at 10:48 a.m.) When asked by Keller what the wedge was, Griffin said “I don’t remember remembering on that much specifics of this e-mail.” Keller keeps pushing the question, but Griffin continues to answer that he didn’t focus on the specifics of it. Court in recess for lunch until 1:30 p.m.


12:17 p.m. - The media overflow room just became a buzz of activity over a Seattle Times blog posting, which basically implied that the city attorney Paul Lawrence might be conceding the case. In cross-examination of Wally Walker, Lawrence told Judge Pechman he need to get information from Walker for a possible appeal. (See post at 10:57 a.m.) This apparently lit up the phones at Sports Radio KJR. Since then, the blog post has been dropped. Both a legal analyst for Save Our Sonics and a rep for the City of Seattle says that implication was overreaching. City rep Alex Fryer says that the City's attorneys would need that information as well if the Sonics appeal the ruling.

1:24 p.m. - Update from the last post. Jim Brunner, who posted the blog, has written an apology, basically explaining what happened the same way I did in my last post. Also, we have received a copy of the "poisoned well" powerpoint and hope to have it posted shortly.

RedStripe
6/20/2008, 03:55 PM
More indepth on Walker


Sonics reveal Walker's "Poisoned Well" Plan to force Bennett to sell
Wally Walker is getting hammered by PBC attorney Paul Taylor, who revealed that Walker had a well-orchestrated plan, entitled: "THE SONICS CHALLENGE: WHY A POISIONED WELL AFFORDS A UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY" that was designed to force the PBC to sell the team and Taylor is trying to prove, and successfully so far, that the city of Seattle was involved in undermining Bennett
Here is the long list of highlights:
*On Oct. 7, 2007 Walker had a meeting at his home with former Sen. Slade Gorton, Microsoft mogul Steve Ballmer and former Safeco Insurance president Mike McGavick
Gorton presented a document called: "The Sonics Challenge"
City lawyer Paul Lawrence calls for an OBJECTION but Judge Marsha Pechman denies it
*Taylor presents EXHIBIT 619
An e-mail from Walker to Mr. McGavick on Sept. 23, 2007
"The draft (of the Sonics challenge plan) looks very good… will help full in the blanks when we sit down with it."
*Taylor presents EXHIBIT 620
A draft of letter on Oct. 5, 2007 sent out by K&L Gates, the city's hired law firm
A K&L Gates secretary wrote in an e-mail to Walker, "Here's the latest draft without the color background, it's not pretty but the master I'm working off of looks much better. If you have revisions please call me or fax changes."
*Taylor asks Walker: "Did you make any changes?" "Not sure," Walker responds.
*Walker admits the purpose of meeting was ways to keep Sonics in Seattle
-- Walker continuously referred to the Bennett group as the "Oklahomans"
When asked by Taylor he if he wanted the "Oklahomans to sell the team?", Walker responded: "We hoped they would sell the team to keep it here," Walker said
*Taylor presents EXHIBIT 567 – Page 218 of the Sonics Challenge plan
*It states "Under the poison well plan, for the best outcome, the Oklahomans have to be willing to sell."
Lawrence makes a CONTINUING OBJECTION, telling Pechman,"This is not a city plan or city document."
*However, Taylor states, the master of the document came from K&L Gates, the city's lead counsel for the lawsuit.
*HERE IS THE PLAN that was presented to Ballmer, Walker and McGavick by Gorton on Oct. 7, 2007
"The SONICS CHALLENGE"
WHY A POISIONED WELL AFFORDS A UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY
*It states that the PBC has to "Make the team available for purchase"
*It also states: "For the best likely outcome, two things have to happen next: Oklahomans have to be willing to sell and the public folks have to do the right thing"
OTHER STATEMENTS REVEALED IN THIS PLAN
"The Path Forward"
*"The critical path is to separate the NBA from the Oklahomans"
*"The City has already taken the first of several steps and is about to take the second:
"First they hired Slade Gorton and used the misstep of an out-of-state arbitration filing to file suit, increasing the prospect of locking them (the PBC) into losses in Seattle."
"This also exposes the league to embarrassment in a market they like"
"Second the City is going to make sure the league understand its new realism"
THE PLAN CONTINUES:
"MAKING THEM SELL"
"So it is a pincer movement: increasing the Oklahomans costs in an unpleasant environment while increasing the league's belief that an alternative solution gains it a good new owner and keeps it in a desirable market."
"Immediate Next Steps (Beyond due Diligence, etc.)"
"1) Gorton, et. al, increase pain of staying (financial and reputation)"
So essentially, the Sonics pull out their big guns, attempting to show that Walker worked with the city on a sophisticated plan -- it was on powerpoint and written in several drafts -- to force the PBC to sell because of money losses.
*Taylor presents EXHIBIT 601
A Walker e-mail attempting to cement a July 9 lunch with Slade Gorton
*Said Walker, he was "trying to reach Gorton and Deputy Mayor Tim Ceis about keeping the Sonics in Seattle."
*Taylor presents EXHIBIT 617
An email from McGavicks to Walker
"Very Machievellian stuff that he thinks might work or at least be fun. What's Slade got cooking?"
"You wanted to make it too expensive to leave? I think so, yes."
-- So basically McGavicks confirms a Machievellian (actually spelled Machiavellian) plan to make it too expensive for the PBC to move to Oklahoma City
*Taylor presents EXHIBIT 618
A July 24, 2007 e-mail Walker to powerful businessman John Stanton
"I met with the city today and felt better about my message of fighting Clay's attempt to leave. Make it too expensive and too litigious for him. I get the impression that they ere in total agreement and that they (administration) understand the value of buying more time."
Stanton's response: "Agree completely that it should be excruciating for Clay to consider early departure. At some point, they will need Patty and Maria's help if this becomes a fight."
*Taylor presents EXHIBIT 570
And e-mail From Walker to McGavick on Oct. 17 2007
"Encourage league to hire independent reviewers of economics of new KeyArena plan"
"Learn what Oklahoma boys are up to and, if there is any opening, continue to drive wedge"
*WalkerJ denies trying to drive a wedge between the Oklahomans and the NBA
DEFENSE ENDS QUESTIONING



http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/sonicstrial/archives/141656.asp

Theskipster
6/20/2008, 04:00 PM
Hah, they want you to become members now to see their ****ty news. :pop:

http://www.bugmenot.com/view/king5.com

Sooner_Havok
6/20/2008, 04:05 PM
http://www.bugmenot.com/view/king5.com

How you think I got what I just quoted ;)

RedStripe
6/20/2008, 04:22 PM
My login/e-mail is OklahomaCity@sonics.com for king5

poke4christ
6/20/2008, 04:31 PM
RedStripe, that's some interesting stuff. Wouldn't it be interested if the judge found that Seattle was conspiring against benitt and forced them to pay damages. Probably not going to happen, but I'd love it.

BlondeSoonerGirl
6/20/2008, 04:35 PM
'The Oklahoma City Oklahomans'.

Heh.

Sooner_Havok
6/20/2008, 04:40 PM
My login/e-mail is OklahomaCity@sonics.com for king5

pants@myankles.com

porgie

:D

Sooner_Havok
6/20/2008, 04:41 PM
'The Oklahoma City Oklahomans'.

Heh.


'The Oklahoma City Competent Legal Team'

Sooner_Havok
6/20/2008, 05:03 PM
Well, they really did use the term "poison well" folks. What a bunch of idiots.

Poison Well Power Point (http://www.king5.com/sharedcontent/northwest/pdf/sonics_meeting.pdf)

Scott D
6/20/2008, 05:06 PM
"Oklahoma City Non Coffee Drinkers"

srsly, where are the Starbucks boycotts people!
;)

Big Red Ron
6/20/2008, 05:26 PM
Them dumb Okies just kicked the ever lovin ***' of those "slick" Seattle folks.

We won, it's over. Let's just hope we can move during the appeal.


Lawrence re-directs. Asking Walker more about his playing career, including with the Sonics. At one point, a question is brought up whether Lawrence needs to go into all this. Judge Pechman points out she has seen Walker play. Lawrence continues and Walker answers that he was on the 1979 NBA Championship team with the Sonics. Pechman says "I saw that too." Lawrence shoots back "I appreciate that your honor, but we do have to make a record for our appeal."

Scott D
6/20/2008, 05:28 PM
for the record, I think the next franchise of anything in Seattle should have the word Incompetent in their name.

Mixer!
6/20/2008, 05:29 PM
The Seattle Arrogance

Big Red Ron
6/20/2008, 05:35 PM
The "Poisoned Well." or "Scorched Earth" plan by Washington leaders...

http://www.king5.com/sharedcontent/northwest/pdf/poison_well_horizontal%20(2).pdf

Sooner_Havok
6/20/2008, 05:38 PM
Well, they really did use the term "poison well" folks. What a bunch of idiots.

Poison Well Power Point (http://www.king5.com/sharedcontent/northwest/pdf/sonics_meeting.pdf)


The "Poisoned Well." or "Scorched Earth" plan by Washington leaders...

http://www.king5.com/sharedcontent/northwest/pdf/poison_well_horizontal%20(2).pdf

Yup, I saw that

Big Red Ron
6/20/2008, 05:40 PM
Yup, I saw that
Sorry not reading this thread, just got home and reading today's transcripts.

Dio
6/20/2008, 05:42 PM
srsly, where are the Starbucks boycotts people!
;)

IN

Mixer!
6/20/2008, 05:44 PM
*Insert joke here about the Seattle group considering the NHL as 'one of the big four'*. :O

Big Red Ron
6/20/2008, 05:47 PM
Java daves's - Suburbs

Downtown OKC - Coffee Slingers

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=210820979

Sooner_Havok
6/20/2008, 05:51 PM
Sorry not reading this thread, just got home and reading today's transcripts.

It's cool. Funny shiat isn't it :D

badger
6/21/2008, 09:50 AM
Saturday bonus edition!

Fox Sports: Seattle still thinks the Great Pumpkin is going to visit the Space Needle. (http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8266472/Seattle-fans-not-yet-giving-up-on-Sonics)

ABC News: Seattle fans also believe in the tooth fairy. (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=5206262&page=1)

NewsOK: Bennett is the devil, reminds Seattle that they're adopted and that Santa doesn't exist. (http://newsok.com/seattles-poison-nba-plan/article/3260306/)

Funny NewsOK commenters are taking the weekend off. Only Seattle remark as of yet: "It's over. Hook, Line, and Sinker! Bu-bye Seattle! Our 'leadership' sure sunk any hopes of the NBA here! Congrats to Oklahoma City."

Have a good weekend, ya'll :D

Big Red Ron
6/21/2008, 03:59 PM
Very interesting blog by a Seattle writer...


Sorry, I'm a little late to getting to this, but I was slammed with post hearing coverage.

I must say, I agree with much of the analysis, and will repeat what I said on KJR last night - the Sonics had a "significant" day in the courtroom.


Say what you want about Clay Bennett, but he hired some superb attorneys. Brad Keller and Paul Taylor have done a pretty good job, and I think they have been organized, direct and confident in their approach.


And with that said (or written), Friday may have been their best day.


The attorneys established early on that former Sonics GM, owner and executive Wally Walker signed a document which showed he was working as a city consultant in September of 2007.



A month later, he held a meeting at his home to display a PowerPoint presentation on what it would take to keep the Sonics in Seattle. Steve Ballmer, Slade Gorton and former Gubernatorial Candidate Mike McGavick were all there. The former CEO, McGavick, wrote the presentation.


It included slides detailing a strategy, stating: "The critical path is to separate the NBA from the Oklahomans while increasing the exposure for each" and how the city's suit increased "the prospect of locking them into losses in Seattle."


Plus, that the strategy to Save the Sonics should include "Gorton, et al., increase pain of staying, financial and reputation."


The lawyers also revealed an e-mail Walker wrote to John Stanton prior to the presentation in July about a meeting with a city liaison, who agreed on the following strategy about Bennett: "Make it too expensive and too litigious for him."


So why is any of this important? The Sonics are trying to prove the city acted in bad faith by filing the lawsuit, and only did it to cause financial harm, and therefore should not reap the benefits. In this case, holding the Sonics to the lease.


It's a strong argument, based on what I saw yesterday. The city has tried to explain that Walker, nor Gorton, was working on behalf of Seattle, but it's hard to see the logic given that Gorton has worked hard, and honorably, over several decades to save sports franchises in Seattle, and his law firm is deeply tied to the city's case.


It all comes down to what Judge Marsha Pechman thinks. Does she believe the Sonics provide a "Specific Performance," more than just financial, to the region? Does that supersede the "Unclean Hands," or "bad-faith" argument by the Sonics?


I don't know. I'm not a legal expert.


Media types like me are all trying to read Judge Pechman and what may be going through her head on this matter.
She did admit over the past few days, she watched Wally Walker play basketball back in the day, and knows what an NBA "free agent" is. So, she does know something about basketball.
But, I spoke with one prominent Seattle attorney yesterday, who shall go unnamed. I told the person about the fact that it seems like Pechman has been siding with the Sonics on 85 to 90 percent of objection arguments, and the city's attorneys have seemed to annoy her at times.


This person claims to know Pechman, and her court, and said frankly: "It means the city's gonna lose."

Collier11
6/21/2008, 06:07 PM
Its funny how Seattle came out along time ago with their "gold mine" of evidence that Clay was talking about moving the team when it wasnt even clear while The Sonics held onto their big evidence about walker til the trial and didnt parade it around. Its almost like Seattle was so intent on making Oklahoma look bad that they didnt even care about the trial...working well for us...JMHO!

Big Red Ron
6/22/2008, 09:13 AM
Yeah, looks to me like this really was just an expensive stall tactic, with an eye on appeal the whole time. I'm guessing the appeal effectively prevents a move this year but not next.

badger
6/22/2008, 10:08 AM
Cascade Times: How Seattle got in this mess to begin with (http://www.cascadetimes.com/News/2008June21_Sonics.html)

Seattle Times: This is how bad Seattle sports really are right now. (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2008011181_toughjobs22.html)

NewsOK: No funny comments today, sorry (http://newsok.com/sonics-judge-hard-to-figure/article/3260642/?tm=1214111755)

I (or someone else, I don't care) will be starting a separate "DraftWatch" thread tomorrow in honor of the NBA draft, which will be on 6 p.m. (Oklahoma time) live on Espen. I will limit posts about the Sonics on this thread to the trial, which is expected to FINALLY be over... just in time for a city appeal after they lose! The draft itself can be limited to the draft thread.

I would be a very, very happy future Sonics fan if they were to take either Longar or Dove to signify that they are investing in Oklahoma as much as Oklahoma (City) is investing in them. Of course, I would be far more happy if they were to take Longar AND Dove, or just Longar and NOT Dove, but I'm not greedy. I just want an NBA team in-state with in-state talent. Both are projected mid-late second rounders.

They are not mock draftin' beyond the first round on most sites, but most projections have us taking either Mayo (NOOOOOOOOOOOO!) or Bayless at No. 4. Of course, if either Rose or Beasley unexpectedly fall, that's who we take above those guys, but who are we kidding here?

Should the Sonics stay in Seattle another lame duck season there (tee hee, I said "another lame duck season" just like those e-mails Seattlers are so feisty about), here's hoping the Sonics have the worst year in franchise history and OU wins the title. That way, the Sonics get the No. 1 pick (unless the lottery screws us) and Blake goes No. 1... to OKLAHOMA CITY, BEYONCES! But, that's 2009. Right now, we need NOT MAYO.

Until next time, live, from sunny Tulsa where we haven't had heavy rainfall in THREE WHOLE DAYS, this has been SONICWATCH.

birddog
6/22/2008, 11:38 AM
i agree, mayo is the last player we need on our team right now. we need a true point guard and augustin will do nicely but the fourth pick is too high for him, i guess.

RedStripe
6/22/2008, 08:47 PM
Best coment in seatle blog.


Vince in seattle

I think the PBC won its case on Friday. I did read the Poison Well power point. Whether prepared by McGavick! or Walker, what a tedious exercise! Full of obvious observations, poorly organized and lazily presented. But what really struck me was how cynical it was. Its "roadmap" is all about how to manipulate public opinion and key politicians.
.
I urge you all to read the opening statements of both sides from Monday in the transcripts available on the PI web site. They show exactly what each side is trying to prove. In my opinion, PBC has proven their case, and Friday's testimony was the topper. Specific performance will not be enforced if the landlord attempts to undermine the business of the tenant. Friday's testimony shows that the Griffin Gang, with Walker and Gorton, conspired to make life difficult for the PBC, thereby forcing a sale to themselves. The city's position is that they were working as private citizens, with no involvement from the city. But then they hired Gorton and Walker, and the plan unfolded pretty much as they had set it out over the summer. Hiring those two was a colossal and fatal mistake. It absolutely proves the city was trying to undermine the tenant. Didn't the city also refuse to sign suite leases with a termination clause? The judge will have to say that both sides are conspiring against the other, and in such a case, will grant the divorce with the settlement to be figured later.
.
The PBC also has a pretty good case on hardship. It is certainly true that the PBC has made some of its problems. But three ownerships over the last 8 years have been unable to meet the debt service on Key Arena. The PBC was aware of the losses and contributed to widening them, but still the economics of the lease are a hardship on the tenant.
.
The city's attempt to prove indirect economic benefit from the lease is weak. All they've proved, if the judge didn't know it, is that you can find an economic expert to give you any conclusion you want. The intangible benefit case is even worse. The city's proven that Sherman Alexie has a burning man-crush on LeBron James, but PBC proved general indifference to the Sonics - if even 28% of the fans who've paid for tickets don't show, how much community-building benefit can there be? Also, the judge may not look at intangible benefits from a theoretical popular, stable team - she might just consider the total lack of goodwill for this particular lame-duck team.
.
I would say that on the grounds of unclean hands, severe and worsening hardship, the deteriorated relationship between the parties, and the lack of provable benefit from specific performance, the PBC will win this case. The judge will refuse to keep together parties who conspired against each other - it's a recipe for endless conflict. Hiring Walker and Gorton will be the key errors, and the refusal to even negotiate a settlement offer will be an ugly stain on Mayor McCheese's record. Perhaps he will find a new career expelling hot air about global warming in the Obama administration.

http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/sonics/2008/06/gorton_should_have_withdrawn_f.html#start_comments

badger
6/23/2008, 08:57 AM
As per yesterday's promise, all draft talk will be moved to an official draft thread today. The only concern of mine here is the nuisance laws...uit.

The Daily Evergreen: My paper's name just SCREAMS coastal liberal! (http://www.dailyevergreen.com/story/25768)

Oh, and they're saying that the Sonics should stay too. :rolleyes:

NewsOK: Trammel thinks Seattle's a bunch of idiots (http://newsok.com/civic-leaders-it-seems-chose-to-ignore-the-wrong-sport/article/3260861/?tm=1214190477)

Today's golden comment off NewsOK: "Oh, suck hard, Trammel. Suck hard. You are almost to retirement. Just suck a little harder and the Gaylord Family Memorial Newspaper will let you keep your job."

Seattle Times: Willy Walker... who the hell... (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sonics/2008011966_sonitrial23.html)

Um... let's see, Google search "Willy Walker Sonics" and we find off Seattle P-I fanblogs (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sonics/2008011966_sonitrial23.html)... "George Karl was right, Shawn Kemp was right--Wally Walker did indeed single-handedly destroy the Sonics and is largely at fault for their demise and move. Thanks Willy Wonka." Ok, well that clears things up.

Ok, with the trial on break, we have no other fun news to report. On to DRAFTWATCH! Until next time, when Seattle weeps because even their precious rain itself has moved to the state of Oklahoma, this has been SONICWATCH.

badger
6/23/2008, 09:11 AM
CORRECTION: Due to highly anticipated draft day activities, badger has incorrectly reported that the draft is today, when it is actually Thursday. You likely found this highly amusing, or like me, have been so wrapped up in the Sonics lawsuit mess that you didn't bother to get your facts straight. Badger apologizes for any inconvenience, ignorance or llamas that came out of this silly error.

THE DRAFT IS THURSDAY. Watch MMA or rasslin' tonight :D

badger
6/23/2008, 08:05 PM
MOAR NEWZ!
ESPN: Heat trade picks w/Sonics? (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/features/rumors)

Cuz it's insider, I will copy/paste text here:
Sonics Deal Intrigues Heat
The Heat appears to have its focus on Thursday's NBA Draft, with the latest twist, according to a source familiar with the situation, being Heat intrigue with a deal with Seattle.

In that permutation, the Heat would send its No. 2 selection plus center Mark Blount to the Sonics in exchange for the No. 4 selection and center Chris Wilcox. The Heat then would be in position to select Southern Cal guard O.J. Mayo or Arizona guard Jerryd Bayless at No. 4. -- South Florida Sun-Sentinel

Collier11
6/23/2008, 08:53 PM
That would be huge if the Sonics could get Rose or Beasley

birddog
6/23/2008, 09:06 PM
anybody but mayo works for me.

badger
6/24/2008, 09:37 AM
An Ode... to Sleepless, Teamless Seattle fans:

When I leave this town
It will be forever
Or I'll never own again

In a restless league
Like this NBA is
Love is ended before it's begun
And too many
empty stadiums
Seem to cool in the endless coast rain

When I give my heart
it's O-K-Completely
Or I'll never give my heart

And the moment I can feel that you know this is truuu
Is when I leave to OKC... from... you

ESPN: Fans vs. owners in Seattle (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=caple/080623&sportCat=mlb)

Olympian: With a name like Detlef Schrempf , it has to be good (http://www.theolympian.com/sports/topstories/story/487229.html)

Seattle P-I: Future in court, on court? (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/368190_sonx24.html?source=mypi)

Olympian: Seattle is the worst sports town in America (http://www.theolympian.com/505/story/487158.html)

News-Trib: You suck, it's the truth! (http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/columnists/callaghan/story/396085.html)

NewsOK: Trammel's column, this time with more fun comments! (http://newsok.com/article/3260861)

NewsOK Comment of the Day: "This new arena in Tulsa is why Bennett got an opt out clause in the Ford lease. Look for the demands for a new arena in 5 years, IF the team moves. "

Tee hee, what do you think of that, Big Red Ron? :)

In conclusion, absolutely nothing has happened, so really wish they had the draft yesterday night. Argh. Sorry again about that. Sorry about the Sleepless in Seattle "song," that was bad and I'll admit it. They need to hurry up and move to OKC before I start tossing out everything including the kitchen sink.

Ignorant in Seattle: But if you toss out your kitchen sink, how will you hillbilly rednecks take your monthly bath?

And to comments like that from Seattlers who may never come to terms that they're losing the Sonics, I say this:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/baHYpsds4WU&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/baHYpsds4WU&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
hahahaha. Until next time, live from Tulsa, where we know we're not going to get the Sonics to move from OKC (are you kidding me?!?!), this has been SONICWATCH.

badger
6/25/2008, 09:18 AM
TOMORROW IS THE NBA DRAFT! They even have a logo!
http://www.matthewhatfield.com/images/NBA_Draft_logo.bmp
Um... yeah. So anyways, let's see what the DRAFT news is for the Sonics of the day?
Seattle Times: Focus on the draft (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sonics/2008015811_sonidraft250.html)

They're focused on the draft... because Seattle knows that it already lost the lawsuit :D

SI: Building the Sonics (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/ian_thomsen/06/24/sonics.draft/)

According to this report, the Sonics will be taking Jarryd Bayless (yay!), Michael Beasley (YAY!) or OJ Mayo (Boo. I'm more of a Miracle Whip person). We're also considering Russell Westbrook (huh?) and Brook Lopez (NO. WORSE choice than Mayo. He and his brother are the jerkiness that personifies the hateable Stanford). Because it's a foregone conclussion that we are taking Bayless, look for the Sonics to pull the unexpected Draft Day epic maneuver.

News-Trib: Draft day is a busy day (http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/story/396990.html)

The guy who took Kevin Durant and Jeff Green is apparently a mastermind. Let us not forget that Kevin Durant was the defacto No. 2 pick after the Blazers to Greg Oden and Jeff Green was already a star. Don't give him TOO much credit.

Arizona Star: Bayless really REALLY wants to be Top 5. Please? (http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/wildcats/245405)

Why else would a player be begging to come to Oklahoma City or Seattle? Oh, right... slipping draft stock. Projectionists now have him at Top 7 instead of Top 3,4,5...

Bleacher Report: Yet another report that does not give any definite draft day moves. (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/32204-sonics-2008-draft-concensus-no-concensus)

Picture that horror movie of the freaky girl in the fetal position on her bed in a darkened room: "I'll ne-ver te-ll..." How spooky. We are going to end up with a strange choice. Please remember to drink tomorrow night so you aren't throwing breakable china into your television.

NewsOK: Let's see our newest comments... (http://www.newsok.com/article/3261847/)

Upon review, the ruling on the field has been reversed. Seattlers did NOT comment on NewsOK like they always do. Seattlers have NOT been charged with a timeout, because they have no coach, assistants, players, personnel, cheerleaders, announcer guy...

NewsOK: Ok then, let's try THIS story on the Sonic owner partnership. SURELY this has some fun comments! (http://newsok.com/sonics-partners-relationship-goes-way-back/article/3261823/?tm=1214396931)

Nopeity nope nope. Man, I don't wanna read NewsOK for their NEWS :(

Ballard (Warshington)News-Trib: Meet Mr. No-Life (http://www.ballardnewstribune.com/articles/2008/06/24/news/local_news/news04.txt)
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/ef8818930d.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

Mr. No-Life: Ok, you promise you cut the Star Wars poster out of the picture? Good, I want to look like a SPORTS fanatic, not a huge nerd... anyways... ready to go? Ok... Have you SEEN the Mariners lately? The Mariners SUCK. Oh, and the Seahawks? Do you know how COLD it gets up here during the winter? It's bad enough that we have to endure the summer rainfall that we do, but cold weather is what makes Seattle SUCK MORE. So, we NEED the Sonics to... wait a sec? Are you asking me about the 20 wins last season? Was it really just TWENTY wins?! Aw man, WE SUCK AGAIN. Screw it, I'm moving to Canada.

(Ok, if the pic doesn't show up here, just click on the story link)

Until next time, live from Tulsa, where we have Phantom and Phantom alone at the Performing Arts Center till mid July, this has been SONICWATCH. Tune in tomorrow (for REAL this time!) for NBA DRAFTWATCH for all (not just Sonic) picks and discussion. Be on the lookout for Longar! We need to get someone drafted!

badger
6/26/2008, 09:21 AM
Draft Day! I'll be starting a separate draft thread shortly.

In SONICWATCH today, it's all lawsuit and OKC prospects!

Forbes: Why is Forbes bothering us now (http://www.forbes.com/business/2008/06/25/seattle-supersonics-nba-biz-sports-cx_mw_0625seattle.html)...

Unimpressive article, but a wide audience at this site, so it popped right up on my daily Google search for Sonic news. Whatev...

Seattle Times: Deputy Mayor Tim Ceis should testify, according to the enemy (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008018080_sonitrial26m.html)

News-Trib: Quick verdict? (http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/sonics/story/397983.html)

Dang, I hope so. OKC! OKC!

Examiner (Oklahoma City): Loser pays legal fees (http://www.examiner.com/a-1458068~Sonics_trial_loser_must_pay_legal_fees.htm l)

Seattle is going to lose twice then?

Until next time, here's hoping that there's no robins hopping around outside OKC's Ford Center, or any brooks leading into OKC' Riverwalk, or any Mayo on Spaghetti Warehouse's spaghetti or any... um... space needles sewing OKC and Seattle together. Stay tuned for NBA DRAFTWATCH, which is 6 p.m. (Oklahoma time) on ESPN. Watch it! Love it! Go Sonics!

Big Red Ron
6/26/2008, 11:27 PM
Tee hee, what do you think of that, Big Red Ron? :)

Now that's some funny sh!t, but I wouldn't hold my breath, if I were a tulsan.

Big Red Ron
6/26/2008, 11:50 PM
More likely, Peterson said, attorneys for the city will seek relief from the U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco to keep the team in place. However, it’s still not a certainty that the federal court of appeals would keep the Sonics in place while the two parties enter into a jury trial to decide monetary damages for a buyout of the lease.
Former Sonics owner Howard Schultz also could file a motion for an injunction to keep the team in Seattle while his case to undo the sale of the team to the current Oklahoma City-based ownership group is pending. However, an injunction being issued in anticipation of that case also seems unlikely.Good to hear.

RedStripe
6/27/2008, 10:26 AM
I read somewhere that if the Sonics win and Schultz goes for an injunction he will most likely have to put up a 30 million dollar bond to keep the Sonics in Seattle for his trial.

Collier11
6/27/2008, 12:53 PM
that would be great

badger
6/27/2008, 01:12 PM
http://www.jacksonfish.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/gonefishing.jpg
On to the east coast! I was hopeful that the Sonics would be declared OKC's by now, but that does not appear to be the case.

Associated Press: Nope, not till Wednesday. (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gi68etltLiETJ2AmBVtpMVIQWHEgD91I3TP81)

Seattle P-I: What AP said... oh, and Seattle is getting screwed! (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/thiel/368682_thiel27.html?source=mypi)

Seattle Times: What the AP and P-I said... poison yer well (or jump yer couch)! (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sonics/2008020215_sonics27m.html)

NewsOK: F the trial, here's some info on the draft pick! (http://newsok.com/westbrook-wants-to-get-the-ball-in-durants-hands/article/3262807/?tm=1214543170)

:rolleyes: See you all in a week.

Mixer!
6/29/2008, 12:31 PM
Sonics have options as shopping season begins (http://newsok.com/article/3263631)

If Sonics' owners win, when will moving vans arrive? (http://newsok.com/article/3263633)

Much like Sonics, White has handled hardships (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/jerrybrewer/2008023547_brewer290.html)

RedStripe
7/1/2008, 12:08 PM
Seattle PI: So you're saying there's a chance? (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/369084_trial01.html)


Sonics questions remain

Judge's inquiries during closing offer little insight

By GREG JOHNS (gregjohns@seattlepi.com)
P-I REPORTER
Given the fate of the Sonics' future in Seattle now lies in the hands of Marsha Pechman, it's impossible not to wonder what the U.S. District Court judge was thinking as she sat through the six-day trial between the team's Oklahoma City ownership group and the city of Seattle.
Judging which way a judge might be leaning is difficult, however. Pechman gave few clues during the 30 hours of testimony, but one intriguing difference was the number of questions she posed to the opposing lawyers during closing arguments Thursday.
Pechman seemed particularly intent on pinning down Paul Lawrence, lead attorney for the city, as she engaged him at length on 10 different topics during his closing.
On the flip side, Pechman interrupted PBC attorney Brad Keller three times during his finale.
While judges never ask questions during closing arguments of a jury trial, it is common to break in during a bench trial where the judge wants specific responses. Pechman not only supplied the attorneys with questions before closing arguments, she also weighed in during the arguments with numerous queries.
Lawrence declined to comment on any aspect of Pechman's questions after the trial, and Keller remained off limits on all topics to the media throughout. But lawyers not affiliated with the case say it's unwise to assume anything from the way a judge responds during closings.
Sometimes judges will actually ask more questions of the side they're favoring, looking for the attorney to help fill in the gaps on any uncertainties before writing their decisions.
Or judges ask more questions because they are troubled by one party's position and want to explore holes in their case.
So while it's impossible to infer which way Pechman was leaning as the trial wrapped up, it is interesting to look at the issues she raised with each side.
Pechman seemed particularly pointed in pushing Lawrence about former Sen. Slade Gorton's dual role in the situation, as well as whether Mayor Greg Nickels would be able to work with Sonics chairman Clay Bennett if she forced the two parties to remain together for two more years.
Pechman clearly is concerned about the "dysfunctional relationship" charge by the PBC, which is one of the major defenses against a specific enforcement ruling. The judge said she's not thinking about minor issues between the two parties concerning ticket sales and concession prices, but the sort of ugly feuds raised by the trial lawyers.
"What I'm worried about," she said, "is are we going to have an ongoing allegation about the city undermining its tenant by plotting to have someone else buy them out, forcing them to increase loss, going to the NBA and undermining their business position or leaking their secrets?
"I would like to know how I can be assured that we're not going to be back here with those kinds of problems."
Lawrence said Nickels and Bennett are both sophisticated businessmen who would get along just fine once the lease issue was settled. Pechman responded by noting it's not very sophisticated when two people "go to their own corners and refuse to talk with one another."
After Lawrence suggested Nickels was merely sticking to his agenda of promoting KeyArena as a solution and refusing to talk with Bennett if he wasn't of the same mind, Pechman got down to basics.
Pechman: Mr. Lawrence, answer my question.
Lawrence: I'm trying to.
Pechman: Did the mayor ever call Mr. Bennett back and say let's sit down, let's talk about this and see what we can do?
Lawrence: The mayor ...
Pechman: I didn't hear it.
Lawrence: The mayor's position has been consistent that he's willing to talk about -- the only thing he's willing to talk about is something that would allow the Sonics to stay through the end of the lease and hopefully something future going forward. Since that was not a discussion that Mr. Bennett was willing to have there was no discussion.
Pechman: So the answer to my question is no?
Lawrence: Not -- the mayor was not willing to sit down and discuss an early exit, correct.
Pechman: Let's move on.
The judge seemed equally stern in noting Gorton violated a confidentiality agreement with the NBA after meeting with league officials and Bennett's representatives Oct. 15 in New York about the the city of Seattle's KeyArena proposals.
Less than 24 hours later, Gorton, already employed as the city's lead counsel for K&L Gates, sent an e-mail to former team president Wally Walker and a group of private investors that was seeking to force Bennett to sell the team, filling them in on the NBA meeting.
After confronting fellow K&L Gates attorney Lawrence about that situation, Pechman asked if the one way to "ameliorate the harm here to the Sonics is to sever your ties with the city" if she were to award specific performance, thus suggesting she is looking at ways to enforce the lease despite the "unclean hands" conflict.
"That would be entirely within your discretion," said Lawrence, noting the City Attorney's Office could readily assume further legal oversight.
Pechman also quizzed Lawrence about whether or not the maintenance obligation in the lease meant the city needed to maintain KeyArena as a "viable venue." The lawyer responded by saying that agreement just required keeping the facility in good repair, not at some "state-of-the-art" NBA level.
The two engaged in a lively debate over the role of "sentimentality," given the city wants to strictly enforce the lease, but also is arguing the fans' love for the team is part of the package.
"Can a corporate entity have sentiment?" Pechman wondered. "I understand that the fans do. We have spent a lot of time and the fans obviously feel they have a stake in this. But in fact, the fans aren't parties to the lease. And I don't think you're going to find anything in there about the fans. So if you want me to stick to the lease, is that really something that I should be looking at? I don't know that there is such a thing as corporate tears."
Lawrence responded by arguing the city is a public entity that differs from a corporation in that its purpose isn't to make money, but to provide benefits to citizens.
When it came time for Keller's closing, Pechman largely let the lawyer run with his thoughts. She did interrupt early to ask whether he felt the PBC owed the city any obligation for the remaining five years of debt on KeyArena's bonds that would remain after 2009-10.
Keller said no, unless the rent obligation agreed to subsequently was sufficient to cover the leftover debt, which he didn't expect given PBC's estimate of $9 million to $10 million owed compared to the current arena debt of $35 million.
In that vein, Pechman later wondered about her position if she did agree to let the Sonics go in exchange for a lease payment that would be considerably less than the $26.5 million buyout already offered by Bennett.
"Is it up to me to tell the city leadership you're asking for a bad bargain? That's not my role, is it?" she asked.
"No," Keller said. "Your role is to determine whether under the facts of this case specific performance is an available remedy. And if the answer is no, well, they are going to have to revisit what their approach was to that buyout offer."
Pechman's final question to the PBC counsel concerned whether he disagreed that Seattle had a right to file suit to enforce its lease, given his arguments that city leaders are using the lawsuit to force Bennett to sell.
"Does it have the right to try and work with the tenant to get the tenant to stay longer? Of course it does," Keller said. "But if the tenant doesn't want to because it believes ... the arena is inadequate both existing and renovated, it has no right to force its tenant to sell or engage in any course of conduct that is designed to try and accomplish that end.
"And when you do that you go over the line from a proper purpose to an improper purpose. And when you join hands and actively become complicit with others to engage in acts to effectuate that improper end you go from what is just a lawful exercise of a legal right and cross over into the world of unclean hands and improper behavior."
Pechman will issue her ruling Wednesday at 4 p.m.

RedStripe
7/1/2008, 12:09 PM
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Posted by fanone (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=fanone) at 6/30/08 10:23 p.m.
Well, from the sounds of the article Pechman will probably decide against the City of Seattle.
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#478347
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/profilepics/50blank.jpg (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=dkellogg)Posted by dkellogg (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=dkellogg) at 6/30/08 10:54 p.m.
fanone - you can blame Nickels & Ceis for sending out the goon squad led by Gorton if the City loses. The mayor is so used to running rip shod over everyone else locally that I am sure it is a great shock to be brought up short in court and roundly slapped down for backroom deals and underhanded bargaining that go on regularly in city hall.
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#478361
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/profilepics/50blank.jpg (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=Zoomin)Posted by Zoomin (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=Zoomin) at 6/30/08 11:12 p.m.
"the arena is inadequate both existing and renovated".

This is a completely meaningless statement made by Keller. If they did not adequately read the lease, inspect the building, and read the financial statements of the previous owners, they have nobody to blame but themselves. And then they refused to consider any Key alternatives from early on in the process. The city did the right thing in making it difficult for PBC to leave by enforcing the lease. If they hadn't, the team would be gone aleady. Just because 2-faced slimeball Gorton screwed up, the city should not be punished. PBC brought all this on and should not be rewarded for their deceitful and sleezy actions.
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#478365
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/profilepics/50blank.jpg (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=Mr%2E+Baker)Posted by Mr. Baker (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=Mr%2E+Baker) at 6/30/08 11:16 p.m.
There is a lease, it says they play all home games through September 2010.
The rest is fluff.
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#478379
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/profilepics/50blank.jpg (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=brettb33)Posted by brettb33 (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=brettb33) at 6/30/08 11:30 p.m.
Exactly, Mr. Baker. To read anything into Pechman's line of questioning is a futile exercise. If she sticks to the terms of the lease, which she indicated she did, she will rule in favor of the city.
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#478401
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/profilepics/50blank.jpg (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=uh%2C+sure)Posted by uh, sure (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=uh%2C+sure) at 6/30/08 11:52 p.m.
Keller should know better. There is no basis in law or fact for the Sonics to demand an upgraded Key Arena, for the remaining two years of the lease, as a precondition to their honoring the lease. Just because Pechman didn't call bulls**t doesn't mean that she wasn't thinking it.

I'm 180 degrees from fanone on my take concerning Pechman's questioning. It sounds like she wanted assurances that the handful of legitimate objections that the Sonics had voiced could be addressed in the eventuality of a specific performance scenario. If she got answers that satisfied her, the Sonics are staying.

It's interesting that, in final analysis, if the Sonics leave early it will be almost exclusively due to the actions of Nickels and Gorton.
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#478415
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/profilepics/50blank.jpg (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=Hot+Rod)Posted by Hot Rod (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=Hot+Rod) at 7/1/08 12:15 a.m.
Keller is not asking the city to upgrade Key Arena in order to stay for the two years of the lease. The Sonics said they would stay if the city built a new arena or if a plan were in place to do so. Since there aint, and since the relationship is irreparable and both sides are heavy losers - the Sonics want out, now. In fact, the Sonics want nothing to do with Key Arena, so why do you still think Keller wants an upgrade to it??? If you drop bias and emotion, consider the true issue here - Tenant/Landlord relationship. Even under contract, as long as it is fulfilled monitarily - the agreement is satisfied. That is the law and that will be Perchman's ruling. All of the 'intangables' Sonics fanatics keep trying to raise is unfortunately for them a casualty in all of this. There is NOTHING in the lease or any contract where the Sonics promise any intangables. They only promise to be a tenant until 2010, paying rent and splitting any proceeds with the city. Once again, in PURE contract law - this can be satisfied as consideration if PBC pays its rent and possibly other equity which the judge will set. This will be discounted, of course, because the city will have to pay the legal fees. Howard's case will be thrown out - since there is evidence the city and our officials interfered with Bennett's ability to get an arena built (a precondition of Seattle retaining the Sonics). Bennett might have to pay some cash for the Ticket Holder's class action suit but it doesn't prevent him from opening Nov 1 in downtown Oklahoma City under a new name. Way to go Mayor McCheese!
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#478426
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/profilepics/123181_50.jpg (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=Huskycrash)Posted by Huskycrash (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=Huskycrash) at 7/1/08 12:30 a.m.
It's funny how everyone has their scapegoat. You see people blaming Nickels and Bennett and others putting it on Gorton and Schultz. What everyone should realize is that this mess was made by the NBA and their business model. Yes everyone mentioned has some fault and a few more then others. One person I will defend to some degree is Gorton. The worst thing he did was ignore a confidentiality agreement with the NBA. What I see is the NBA working with PBC to take the team to OKC. I am sure that they shared information to help grease this move so why shouldn't Gorton do what he has to to save the city our team. Yes we would all like everything to be above board and ethical but if your pulled into the mud then you might as well stay in it until the job is done.
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#478429
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/profilepics/21475_50.jpg (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=jafabian)Posted by jafabian (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=jafabian) at 7/1/08 12:33 a.m.
Pechman did more than quesiton the city's attorney. She admonished him, borderline scolded him whereas for the Sonics she simply questioned for clarification. Pechman needs to understand that when the city negotiates with the professional sport franchises in regards to their facilties, the city isn't approaching this negotiation with the idea of what is best for said team but rather what is in the best interests of the city itself and its citizens? Does the city really need to spend over a half billion dollars on a venue where the league itself is losing money overall? Especially in light of problems such as the replacement of the Alaskan Way Viaduct? For an organization who's current ownership have put nothing into the local community?

Pechman should also look at the history of the Sonics/Seahawks/Mariners and see what it is they ask of the city each and every time they approach the city. Every time they do they're asking for help in making more money for themselves when they themselves are millionaires already. Is this the kind of corporate entity you want to rule in favor of?
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#478477
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/profilepics/50blank.jpg (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=jd928)Posted by jd928 (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=jd928) at 7/1/08 5:25 a.m.
If the City loses, the fault rests with Mayor Nickels. When he failed to get state funds to renovate Key Arena, he should have negotiated a buyout of the lease. Bennett likely would have offered to pay off most if not all of the remaining debt on Key Arena.
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#478672
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/profilepics/50blank.jpg (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=L8tely)Posted by L8tely (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/piuser/showuser.asp?username=L8tely) at 7/1/08 9:10 a.m.
Let's face it Bennett and his group had only one agenda - move the sonics to OKC as quickly as. Anyone who thought otherwise is a fool. Lets assume Seattle promised a new arena. How long would it be before the owners and NBA would demand "renovations" in order to make the new arena more profitable? It was just 8 years ago the NBA praised the upgrades and repairs to the colliseum. Having been to several games I can say it is a very intimate venue to watch the game making it quite an enjoyable experience.

The NBA is broken and beginning to collapse under these ridiculous salaries and perks offered to the players and coaches. So if the team goes to OKC we can all watch with glee when they lose money and the PBC sells them and the team out at a profit.

From what I read in the papers, it seems to me neiter side proved it's case. Bennett couldn't show he tried in good faith to get a new or upgraded arena and instead turned a medicore team into the worst team in basketball. Of course he's going to lose money if he puts a losing team on the floor. What makes anyone think had we built this new arena he would have actually improved the team through trades and the draft? Absolutely none. Seattle too is not without fault, particularly the mayor and Slade Gorton. The mayor for his disengenous attempts to negotiate with PBC, and Gorton for violating the confidentiality agreement.

So here we are. If the judge sides with the city, we end up with a substandard team for two years unless the PBC sells to local investors. Then we can watch the new owners beg for a new more profitable arena to be able to afford better players. If the judge sides with the PBC and Bennett, we can wave goodbye to the team and laugh as they improve the team, but collapse along with the NBA and cry to the city and state for more money to make them profitable again.

The NBA represnts professional sports at it's worst. Nothing good will happen till the sport as a whole cleans up its act.

Dio
7/2/2008, 04:00 PM
Rumors are starting to swirl about a settlement...

Partial Qualifier
7/2/2008, 04:17 PM
some settlement non-news: http://www.newsok.com/article/3264955/

oh well; guess we have to wait another couple hours :)

Collier11
7/2/2008, 04:30 PM
Trying not to get too excited but it is looking more and more like we will have a team next yr

Dio
7/2/2008, 04:38 PM
Looking a lot like it:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008030229_sonitrial02.html

BigRedJed
7/2/2008, 05:10 PM
It's done. Schultz was the holdup. Clay and Co. wouldn't settle until Mr. Starbucks dropped his suit, which he has now agreed to do. The negotiations began in earnest after the beatdown the city got in court.

I'm still not sure on the terms. There was talk of the same amount the Sonics offered several weeks ago (which was summarily turned down by Seattle), LESS the nearly $3 million the Sonics had to spend to defend this ridiculous suit. However, I think they may have relented on that, and in fact might be giving even a little more cash to offset more of the debt service on Key.

NormanPride
7/2/2008, 05:45 PM
Thanks for keeping the discussion going while NP and I are on vacation (It is wonderful, btw).

I just saw the news on the settlement. If I had to vBet with vCash on it, I'd say one more year in Seattle and an early opt out of the lease. Basically, a lame duck Seattle year, then coming to OKC a year early (or a year late, depending on how you look at it).

In any event, it makes me curious how the judge would rule in such a case without a settlement. Mr. Starbucks really needed to drop his suit, as it is apparent that his business is going south (not literally - Starbucks apparently is closing 600 stand-alones this year because more fast fooders, like Mickie D's, is embracing cheaper coffee, so that leaves Starbucks out).

In any event, I need to get back to vacation, but thanks again for keeping the discussion going. If only the good news came earlier (or later), I would have gotten little bells and whistles to celebrate the NBA coming to the state.

Ah well :) At least you know your Starbucks boycott worked wonders :D

BigRedJed
7/2/2008, 05:52 PM
Uh... ...you're welcome?

And frankly, a settlement most likely means hoop in OKC this year. A lame-duck season does NOBODY any good, and only means more heartache and bad feelings for the next year in Seattle. Clean break. Also, Seattle is settling in part because they know it's their best chance of at some point bringing a team back to their city, and they'll need to get to work on that.