The Apostles Creed

[Howzit]

I was discussing Christian denominations with a close friend and we somehow got to the Apostle's Creed. In talking about it, she recited it and I did not recognize one line, "He descended into hell." Below is pasted a version:

I BELIEVE in God the Father Almighty,Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord:Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,Born of the Virgin Mary:Suffered under Pontius Pilate,Was crucified, dead, and buried:He descended into hell;The third day he rose again from the dead:He ascended into heaven,And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty:From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost:The holy Catholick Church;The Communion of Saints:The Forgiveness of sins:The Resurrection of the body,And the Life everlasting.Amen.

Now, I was raised in the Methodist church, and I had no recollection of the "descended into hell" part. I looked it up, and sure enough it is not in the methodist version.

So my question for the bible k n o w er a b o u t e r s on the board is what the heck? Is this descension into hell in the bible, and, if so, where? Did something momentous happen while there, or was it just a quick meet and greet with a little palm pressing with the constituency? While I am certainly not a bible scholar, I am fairly familiar, and have no memory of that part between crucification and the raising from the dead.

TIA.

[soonerbrat]

never heard that version.

[tommieharris91]

never heard that version.

Probably because it is the Nicene Creed that is recited at Mass.

[Howzit]

What denomination do you consider yourself, brat? There were several versions listed on Wikpedia.

And what do you mean by 'that version?" Have you heard the "descended into hell" part?

[Rogue]

Never heard the "hell" part at Catholic mass. I know it as the "Nicene Creed" too.

[soonerbrat]

I went to Catholic school and I've read a bunch of different versions...but yes, the Nicene Creed is the one that is recited at the masses that I go to.

[soonerbrat]

What denomination do you consider yourself, brat? There were several versions listed on Wikpedia.

And what do you mean by 'that version?" Have you heard the "descended into hell" part?

and no, i have never heard the "descended into hell" part....

[Okla-homey]

the hell part is from the Apostles Creed. The Nicene Creed lacks that line.

I don't think there's any scriptural basis for the line. I expect it's RC dogma.

Anyhoo, its nothing to get your robe in a twist over.

All Christians agree; 1) He willingly took on all our sins; 2) He submitted Himself to be crucified bearing them; 3) He died, thus paying the price for our collective sins, 3) He was entombed, then,; 4) He made a triumphant comeback. That's the important part.

[Howzit]

My robe weren't twisted. I am truly interested in whether there was scriptural text on the 'descended into hell' part.

[StoopTroup]

I have a couple of RC Prayer Books and both the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed are in there.

[soonerbrat]

I have a couple of RC Prayer Books and both the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed are in there.

and?

[Okla-homey]

My robe weren't twisted. I am truly interested in whether there was scriptural text on the 'descended into hell' part.

Nope. In fact, to give you an idea how things get adapted to fit various dogma, the scriptures are pretty clear Jesus had siblings. However, the RC Church insists His mother died a virgin because it fits with their regard for her.

Here are some scriptures that refer to Christ's brothers:


"Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?" -- Matthew 13:55

"There came then His Brethren and His Mother, and standing without, sent unto Him calling Him." -- Mark 3:31

"But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother." -- Galatians 1:19

I've never understood how a married woman bearing children (after He was born) in any way diminishes her image.

[StoopTroup]

They are different prayers.


The Nicene Creed is the most widely accepted and used brief statements of the Christian Faith. In liturgical churches, it is said every Sunday as part of the Liturgy. It is Common Ground to East Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists, and many other Christian groups. Many groups that do not have a tradition of using it in their services nevertheless are committed to the doctrines it teaches.
(Someone may ask, "What about the Apostles' Creed?" Traditionally, in the West, the Apostles' Creed is used at Baptisms, and the Nicene Creed at the Eucharist [AKA the Mass, the Liturgy, the Lord's Supper, or the Holy Communion.] The East uses only the Nicene Creed.)

[Blue]

He descended into hell (sheol) and preached to the saints that were being held there. Old testament saints(Abraham, Elijah,Isaiah,etc) were being held in the afterlife in a heaven like paradise. Seperated from the pit by a large gulf. Jesus went and preached them the gospel.

I'll have to look for it...

[yermom]

http://www.bibleed.com/bibleteachings/otherbibleteachings/hellandgrave.asp

here is a viewpoint on Hell... i can't vouch for the site, but i've heard the same info before

[Howzit]

He descended into hell (sheol) and preached to the saints that were being held there. Old testament saints were being held in the afterlife in a heaven like paradise. Seperated from the pit by a large gulf. Jesus went and preached them the gospel.

Seriously? Where does that come from?

[StoopTroup]

http://www.bibleed.com/bibleteachings/otherbibleteachings/hellandgrave.asp

here is a viewpoint on Hell... i can't vouch for the site, but i've heard the same info before

Good Stuff.

I found this one too.


When the Apostles' Creed was drawn up, the chief enemy was Gnosticism, which denied that Jesus was truly Man; and the emphases of the Apostles' Creed reflect a concern with repudiating this error.
When the Nicene Creed was drawn up, the chief enemy was Arianism, which denied that Jesus was fully God. Arius was a presbyter (elder) in Alexandria in Egypt, in the early 300's. He taught that the Father, in the beginning, created (or begot) the Son, and that the Son, in conjunction with the Father, then proceeded to create the world. The result of this was to make the Son a created being, and hence not God in any meaningful sense. It was also suspiciously like the theories of those Gnostics and pagans who held that God was too perfect to create something like a material world, and so introduced one or more intermediate beings between God and the world. God created A, who created B, who created C, . . . who created Z, who created the world. Alexander, Bishop of Alexandria, sent for Arius and questioned him. Arius stuck to his position, and was finally excommunicated by a council of Egyptian bishops. He went to Nicomedia in Asia, where he wrote letters defending his position to various bishops. Finally, the Emperor Constantine summoned a council of Bishops in Nicea (across the straits from modern Istanbul), and there in 325 the Bishops of the Church, by a decided majority, repudiated Arius and produced the first draft of what is now called the Nicene Creed. A chief spokesman for the full deity of Christ was Athanasius, deacon of Alexandria, assistant (and later successor) to the aging Alexander. The Arian position has been revived in our own day by the Watchtower Society (the JW's), who explicitly hail Arius as a great witness to the truth.

[Blue]

And Catholics seem to raise Mary on equal footing w/ Jesus. Not good IMO.

[Blue]

Seriously? Where does that come from?

I'll have to find it. It might take awhile.

[Blue]

http://www.bibleed.com/bibleteachings/otherbibleteachings/hellandgrave.asp

here is a viewpoint on Hell... i can't vouch for the site, but i've heard the same info before


Just looked over that site and it's dangerous. They don't believe Hell is a literal place. They don't believe Satan is real.

[soonerbrat]

And Catholics seem to raise Mary on equal footing w/ Jesus. Not good IMO.

really? are you sure about that?

[StoopTroup]

And Catholics seem to raise Mary on equal footing w/ Jesus. Not good IMO.

I think lots of folks seem to want to use that more against Catholics than really understanding that we honor her and understand what she went through to not only give birth to the Christ Child but to watch him be Cruxified on the Cross.

I also believe we should honor Saints as well.

The Saints helped many people in their lives by showing them the way and trying to be an example of how God would like us to spread his word.

When we say The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit....Mary and the Saints aren't mentioned. We do honor them though.

Just my opinion though.

[Okla-homey]

And Catholics seem to raise Mary on equal footing w/ Jesus. Not good IMO.

I understand why it was necessary to do so. They were attempting to appeal to culture(s) (e.g. Roman, Greek, etc.) that had a panel of dieties--some male some female. By placing Mary on a divine plain, and elevating His disciples and other early Christians to sainthood, they facilitated conversions by making this "new" monotheistic religion seem less foreign to those "old" polytheistic cultures.

[soonerbrat]

honor, yes. same footing, no.

it irks me when people say that, for they know not of which they speak.

[Blue]

Man I can't find it. I don't know where I read that or why I think that. Don't take it for truth. :D

[OUstudent4life]

Yeah, I've never understood that...the Mary part has always confused me, as to why people use that in such a negative way in talking about Catholics, but they're generally wrong in what we believe about her. I mean, after 7 years of Catholic school, I was never taught she was on the same level...

[Blue]

really? are you sure about that?

I said "seem". I don't believe in praying to anybody but Jesus. He is the intermediator. Not Mary, not the saints.
No offense, just my opin.

[Blue]

honor, yes. same footing, no.

it irks me when people say that, for they know not of which they speak.

I apologize. My best bud is Catholic and he's a great dude. Sometimes it seems Catholics add alot to the scripture. Salvation by works almost. Forgive me if that offends you.

[Blue]

By no means are any of us perfect and we should love and support one another instead of judge. I'm guilty of it all the time. Again, my apologies.

[StoopTroup]

No offense.

We're gonna pray you don't go to hell though. ;)

[Okla-homey]

honor, yes. same footing, no.

it irks me when people say that, for they know not of which they speak.

C'mon Brat, you've surely heard her referred to as "Co-Redemptress" and "Mediatrix." That's putting her on the same step pretty much. No other person born on Earth gets that treatment. Mind you, I don't care. But it is some pretty heady elevation.

[Blue]

And there's only one Holy Father, and it aint this guy...;)


http://amnestyinternational.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/pope.jpg

Much respect for his devotion though.

[Blue]

1 Peter 3:18- For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that he might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; In which he went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobediant, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the waters.

Open for interpretation. Also in the Old T, it talks of a man screaming from the pit across a gulf to Abraham? maybe? He couldn't do anything for him.

[soonerbrat]

C'mon Brat, you've surely heard her referred to as "Co-Redemptress" and "Mediatrix." That's putting her on the same step pretty much. No other person born on Earth gets that treatment. Mind you, I don't care. But it is some pretty heady elevation.

nope, never heard that.

[Okla-homey]

nope, never heard that.

well dang, its in the Catechism. I've read it. Now, please don't tell me you've never heard her referred to as "Queen of Heaven"

[JohnnyMack]

And Catholics seem to raise Mary on equal footing w/ Jesus. Not good IMO.

Yeah, **** those guys.

[JohnnyMack]

The most important aspect of this thread is that Howzit clearly went around the filter with his ****** ******* antics.

I propose we ban him for a period of no less than 535 months.

[Blue]

Yeah, **** those guys.

What do you know about it then?

[StoopTroup]

well dang, its in the Catechism. I've read it. Now, please don't tell me you've never heard her referred to as "Queen of Heaven"

I haven't.

Seriously.

[JohnnyMack]

What do you know about it then?

Me? Nuthin'. I worship Mother Earth.

But I would kick it with Jeebus, if'n he ever showed up on my door step that is. He seems like a pretty alright dude.

[Blue]

Awesome.

[Howzit]

The most important aspect of this thread is that Howzit clearly went around the filter with his ****** ******* antics.

I propose we ban him for a period of no less than 535 months.

Seconded.

[Blue]

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802496.htm

What crap. It's ashame that the Catholic Church is becoming the leader of the NEW AGE all under one roof religion that pleases everyone. "We all worship the same God. God willed ape to man....

God is who we want him to be."-RCC. Maybe Oprah can be the next pope.

There I go again...

[AlbqSooner]

We're gonna pray you don't go to hell though. ;)

If it was good enough for Jesus its good enough for me. ;)

[Rogue]

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802496.htm

What crap. God is who we want him to be.
There I go again...

Thin.
Ice.
For the SO.

I don't know, I've been waiting for the church to come banging into the 20th century for some time now. I'm surprised to see it coming from Rome and not the more "radical" American Catholics though. What's next, condoms that don't send you directly to hell?

As for the whole intermediary thing with Mary and the saints, here's my take. Mind you, I'm informed, not an apologist or any kind of missionary.

Catholics believe in the holy trinity...think of Catholics crossing themselves "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." So, praying to the Son is the same thing as praying to the Father. Mary and the saints are seen as intermediaries since JC can't be an intermediary Himself...he's one and the same with the Father.

A little heresy:
Someone commented about getting to heaven based on actions. I've said for 8 years now that there's a special place in heaven for Quentin Griffin after scoring 6 TDs against Texas in one game. :D

[Blue]

"Mary and the saints are seen as intermediaries since JC can't be an intermediary Himself...he's one and the same with the Father." -Rogue


Rom 8:26-27 In the same way the spirit also helps our weakness;for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
And he who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints(us) according to the will of God.


2 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is also able to save forever those who draw near to God through him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.


That just tells me I don't need anybody but Christ interceding for me. That's the beauty of the Trinity.

And by no means do I condemn Catholics. I just question some theology.

[yermom]

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802496.htm

What crap. It's ashame that the Catholic Church is becoming the leader of the NEW AGE all under one roof religion that pleases everyone. "We all worship the same God. God willed ape to man....

God is who we want him to be."-RCC. Maybe Oprah can be the next pope.

There I go again...

you act like this is something new. you don't seem to mind Christmas and Easter

[Blue]

Whaddaya mean?

[JohnnyMack]

tolerance rears its ugly head again.

[Blue]

tolerance rears its ugly head again.

You're one to talk.

So I should accept false-doctrine in the name of "tolerance." I don't think so.

And I am tolerant of Catholics. I think they're saved if they believe in Christ. Pretty simple plan for salvation. I'm just talking about some questionable theology.

[Blue]

In fact I'm intolerant of your BELIEF in Mother Earth(whatever). I'm tolerant of you, but not that belief.

I don't bow to the PC altar.

[JohnnyMack]

I know, I know, I'm gonna burn in hell for all eternity, blah, blah, blah

[JohnnyMack]

oh no, the fire and the brimstone. Oh ouch, mr. Devil man quit stabbing me with that pitchfork. Woe is me.

[Blue]

Or they protested the adding on of the gospel? Just look at Pauls letters to the early churches to see how we can flub it up. All churches flub it up, I was just trying to point out some things.

[Blue]

oh no, the fire and the brimstone. Oh ouch, mr. Devil man quit stabbing me with that pitchfork. Woe is me.

I didn't say that. You did.

[yermom]

Whaddaya mean?

to make the population at the time play nice they kinda took over the pagan rituals to make those holidays

[Blue]

to make the population at the time play nice they kinda took over the pagan rituals to make those holidays

Yeah I know we celebrate them on completely wrong days according to the Jewish calendar.

They seem like pagan holidays now anyway. I usually just say, "Thanks" on those days like most days.

I keep trying to say, "By no means am I perfect, here." Most of you know for a fact, I'm very far from it. I just find it interesting to study and talk about.

I'm not trying to bash and I know people take their faith seriously. I just think we should try everything of man by the word of God.

[Chuck Bao]

I appreciate your posts, Blue. I get that you are not trying to be offensive and what good is faith if it isn't tested or at least challenged a tiny bit.

In other words, I hope the mods don't lock this one.

I also think we are doing better on that difference of opinion thing, but I don't get any of the PMs the mods must get, so I'm not so sure about that.

[47straight]

Blue, I appreciate your posts. I do not take offense, and understand what you're trying to say. There have been things posted on the SO about Catholicism that have ****ed me off (false info, revisionist history, etc.) but simply disagreeing and believing different sure isn't one of them. How can I condemn anyone who sincerely seeks the Truth? That's all I'm trying to do, too.


For what it's worth - that's an article in the Vatican newspaper written by a biologist who's not even a bishop or a priest. Take it for what it's worth. It's certainly not the Catechism or an encyclical.

[GottaHavePride]

oh no, the fire and the brimstone. Oh ouch, mr. Devil man quit stabbing me with that pitchfork. Woe is me.

http://www.marriedtothesea.com/120506/god-damn-little-man.gif

[Sooner in Tampa]

The new priest, born and raised in Texas, is nervous about hearing confessions, so he asks the older priest to sit in on his sessions.

The new priest hears a couple of confessions, then the old priest asks him to step out of the confessional for a few suggestions.

The old priest says, "Cross your arms over your chest, and rub your chin with one hand and try saying things like 'yes, I see,' and 'yes, go on,' and 'I understand.'"

The new priest crosses his arms, rubs his chin with one hand and repeats all the suggested remarks to the old priest.

The old priest says , "Now, don't you think that's a little better than slapping your knee and saying, "No ****... what happened next?"

[C&CDean]

The new priest, born and raised in Texas, is nervous about hearing confessions, so he asks the older priest to sit in on his sessions.

The new priest hears a couple of confessions, then the old priest asks him to step out of the confessional for a few suggestions.

The old priest says, "Cross your arms over your chest, and rub your chin with one hand and try saying things like 'yes, I see,' and 'yes, go on,' and 'I understand.'"

The new priest crosses his arms, rubs his chin with one hand and repeats all the suggested remarks to the old priest.

The old priest says , "Now, don't you think that's a little better than slapping your knee and saying, "No ****... what happened next?"

Well as long as the thread keeps getting interspersed with this type of nugget, it may live forever.

[Sooner in Tampa]

Well as long as the thread keeps getting interspersed with this type of nugget, it may live forever.
:D Just tryin to keep it light Dean

[Beano's Fourth Chin]

Back to the original topic, Calvin discusses this in length in his institutes. Voiced by one of the original protestants.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.iv.xvii.html
Section 8. About half way down the page.

Also, lots and lots of words here:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/apostles_creed_dodds.html

[birddog]

i've never been real big on creeds.

[mdklatt]

i've never been real big on creeds.

No kidding. Scott Stapp sings like he's trying to hold water in his mouth.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Lutheran here - ELCA, this is the Nicene Creed and we use "descended into hell" as far as I remember. This is the creed we recite when we do communion. On non-communion Sundays, its the Apostle's creed.

[tbl]

Blue is right on... I'll try to refrain from this discussion as I tend to be more polarizing. ;)

[royalfan5]

Lutheran here - ELCA, this is the Nicene Creed and we use "descended into hell" as far as I remember. This is the creed we recite when we do communion. On non-communion Sundays, its the Apostle's creed.

As a side note, I learned it as "desended to the dead" and "Quick and the Dead" in the Nicene creed as LCMS, but did it the other way during ELCA services. Plus, there is the whole, Christian Church/catholic Church difference between LCMS/WELS and ELCA.

[Blue]

I don't study Martin Luther. I study the Bible.

James said, "Faith without works is dead." He was talking about anyone saved and having the Spirit sanctifying them would show these works or "Bear Fruit." Paul made it clear numerous times that the Blood atonement of sins or work of Jesus on the cross was sufficient for salvation. You cannot "save" yourself. That is a gift from God when you accept it.

But if you feel like you need works to get there by all means, work it out on that hamster wheel. Say your hail Marys, confess your sins to a man, hold on tight to that rosary, and cross your fingers and see where it gets you. Right where you started...a sinner in need of a Savior.

But you've got that right? So no worries.

[Blue]

I'm gonna hold off on this thread for awhile.
{waiting for applause to stop] Thank you. Thank you.

I'm going about this the wrong way. I don't want to be a stumbling block to anyone. I seem to be ****ing off quite a few including Christians. I think I'll go back to getting this plank out of my eye and stop pointing out splinters. :D

It's amazing this religion ever got past the gates of Jerusalem. We must be reaching our limit/quota of gullible idiots. Peace.

[Sooner in Tampa]

I don't study Martin Luther. I study the Bible.

James said, "Faith without works is dead." He was talking about anyone saved and having the Spirit sanctifying them would show these works or "Bear Fruit." Paul made it clear numerous times that the Blood atonement of sins or work of Jesus on the cross was sufficient for salvation. You cannot "save" yourself. That is a gift from God when you accept it.

But if you feel like you need works to get there by all means, work it out on that hamster wheel. Say your hail Marys, confess your sins to a man, hold on tight to that rosary, and cross your fingers and see where it gets you. Right where you started...a sinner in need of a Savior.

But you've got that right? So no worries.

You are very much inline with what Luther taught


Luther immersed himself in the teachings of the Scripture and the early church. Slowly, terms like penance and righteousness took on new meaning. The controversy that broke loose with the publication of his 95 Theses placed even more pressure on the reformer to study the Bible. This study convinced him that the Church had lost sight of several central truths. To Luther, the most important of these was the doctrine that brought him peace with God. With joy, Luther now believed and taught that salvation is a gift of God's grace, received by faith and trust in God's promise to forgive sins for the sake of Christ's death on the cross. This, he believed was God's work from beginning to end.

[Jerk]

Just looked over that site and it's dangerous. They don't believe Hell is a literal place. They don't believe Satan is real.

Are people who go to 'Hell' going to have to eat of the tree of life before being cast in?

Man, that would be something else if Satan's first lie to mankind were true.

I shouldn't have gotten in on this discussion, it's what caused my mind to explode several years ago.

[Sooner_Bob]

Two priests died at the same time and met Saint Peter at the Pearly Gates. St. Peter said, "I'd like to get you guys in now, but our computer is down. You'll have to go back to Earth for about a week, but you can't go back as priests. So what else would you like to be?"

The first priest says, "I've always wanted to be an eagle, soaring above the Rocky Mountains."

"So be it," says St. Peter, and off flies the first priest.

The second priest mulls this over for a moment and asks, "Will any of this week 'count', St. Peter?"

"No, I told you the computer's down. There's no way we can keep track of what you're doing."

"In that case," says the second priest, "I've always wanted to be a stud."

"So be it," says St. Peter, and the second priest disappears.

A week goes by, the computer is fixed, and the Lord tells St. Peter to recall the two priests. "Will you have any trouble locating them?" He asks.

"The first one should be easy," says St. Peter. "He's somewhere over the Rockies, flying with the eagles. But the second one could prove to be more difficult."

"Why?" asketh the Lord.

"He's on a snow tire, somewhere in North Dakota."