Build it and they will come -- MAPS update

[BigRedJed]

Oklahoma City got some great coverage in today's New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/22/sports/othersports/22oklahoma.html?ex=1366603200&en=2ca093108b2f65d3&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink). For those of you keeping score: the Oklahoma River portion of the $370 million, taxpayer-funded MAPS projects involved $15 million in MAPS funding and around $35 million in federal grants through the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Additionally, private money (including most prominently Aubrey McClendon of Chesapeake Energy and Clay Bennett of Dorchester Capital) funded the $3.5 million, non-profit Chesapeake Boathouse (http://www.chesapeakeboathouse.org/1109aboutboathouse.html).

Also, there has been several million invested in a soon-to-launch passenger boat project on the river, which again includes hefty taxpayer involvement, but also a huge private investment from Devon Energy.

Look for the river to spawn private investment in the hundreds of millions over the next two decades, much of it envisioned in Oklahoma City's recently-produced Core to Shore (http://www.okc.gov/Planning/coretoshore/visuals_data.html) plans.

Perhaps most importantly, the river project, like the rest of MAPS (and the spinoff projects that have happened since), improves the quality of life in Oklahoma City, making it easier to land and retain quality companies and educated, creative employees. Plus, it will slowly change national perceptions of our city, as evidenced by this glowing article in the largest daily general-interest newspaper in the country. This again increases our chances at landing business investment and quality human capital from outside the region.



April 22, 2008

Revival of a River Alters a City’s Course in Sports

By KATIE THOMAS

OKLAHOMA CITY — As the nation’s top kayakers and canoeists dipped their paddles in the Oklahoma River over the weekend while competing for a spot on the United States Olympic team, it was possible to imagine that a few city leaders had something else on their minds.

Like, take that, John Steinbeck.

Almost 70 years after Steinbeck popularized the plight of Oklahoma’s Dust Bowl refugees in “The Grapes of Wrath,” residents here still chafe at the city’s reputation as a barren place. As recently as a decade ago, the river was a scar through the city’s heart, at times a trickle of water in a ditch so overgrown it had to be mowed three times a year.

Civic leaders and politicians gambled millions that a rejuvenated river would attract investors to an economically struggling city known for its love of football and rodeo. But to the surprise of even those behind the effort, the river has spawned something else.

The city has become a mecca for elite water sports. Last fall, a crowd of 50,000 showed up for a rowing competition that drew Olympic athletes from Australia and the Czech Republic. Three local universities have begun varsity rowing programs, and a fourth is considering one.

“We completely did it by accident,” Mayor Mick Cornett said.

After a series of floods devastated the area in the 1920s, Oklahoma City and the United States Army Corps of Engineers sought to prevent future catastrophes by straightening, widening and redirecting a stretch of the North Canadian River away from the population center.

“They said, ‘That will never happen again,’ ” Cornett said. “And sure enough, they took all the water out of our river.”

Talk of bringing the river back persisted for decades, especially as civic leaders and planners searched for ways to turn the city around after the oil bust of the 1980s left the local economy reeling. In 1993, taxpayers narrowly approved a sales tax dedicated to an ambitious redevelopment, including the creation of a ballpark, an arena, a library and a trolley system. The tax also included money for the river.

In 1999, engineers began erecting a series of dams and locks that transformed the ditch into a bona fide waterway. Along with the Corps of Engineers, the city planted thousands of trees and added wetlands and walking trails along the banks.

By the time the corridor opened to the public in December 2004, the city and the federal government had spent a combined $54 million. State legislators renamed a seven-mile stretch the Oklahoma River, and private investors built a futuristic boathouse.

The city has since attracted an estimated $700 million in new development. A Dell office complex is on the riverfront, and a multimillion-dollar American Indian Cultural Center is under construction.

Renaming the river was the idea of Ray Ackerman, an advertising executive from Oklahoma City who said he cringed whenever he flew over the ditch on his way home. Ackerman argued that the name North Canadian River would confuse out-of-towners, but the change drew grumbles from many longtime residents who worried history was being erased.

People like Ackerman saw economic opportunity in the river. Mike Knopp’s view was more elemental — the newly filled waterway could now float a boat. Knopp, a rowing enthusiast, looked at one 2,000-meter stretch that was perfectly straight and realized the Army Corps of Engineers had unwittingly created an ideal location for a boat race.

“It’s very spectator-friendly,” he said. “And that is pretty unique, to have an urban venue like this.”

In 1998, Knopp invited Pat Downes, a consultant to the Oklahoma City Riverfront Redevelopment Authority, to a regatta on a nearby lake. It was a cold, rainy day, Downes recalled, but he saw an opportunity. “The sight of those long, graceful rowing shells on a body of water is truly a remarkable sight,” he said.

The river’s potential as a sporting site has become an integral part of city leaders’ dreams for the future. Of course, the city continues to pursue other sports projects. Last week, for example, N.B.A. owners approved the relocation of the Seattle Supersonics to Oklahoma City. Still, little has captured the community’s imagination more than boating.

Knopp quit his job as a lawyer and became the rowing coach at Oklahoma City University, one of the three local universities that offer rowing as a varsity sport with athletic scholarships.

With the help of corporate donors like the locally based Chesapeake Energy Corporation, Knopp set about building a state-of-the-art boathouse. It filled almost immediately after opening in 2006.

Jim Abbott, the athletic director of Oklahoma City University, said he was skeptical when Knopp approached the institution.

“This is Oklahoma — we’re football, we’re rodeo,” he said. “So rowing five years ago was nowhere on the minds of the average Oklahoman.”

But he quickly saw the benefits. Since September 2003, when the team began, 70 athletes have enrolled at the university because of the rowing program.

“The four largest events in the history of our university are the four regattas that we’ve hosted,” Abbott said. Those events now draw the nation’s top rowing teams, including Harvard, and attendance has quintupled since the first regatta was held in 2004, Abbott said.

The sport’s popularity has grown so fast that the three university teams are planning to build boathouses along the river, and another university is considering erecting a fourth. There is even talk of constructing a white-water course near the new boathouses.

Kayakers at the weekend Olympic trials, which drew between 10,000 and 15,000 spectators, said they had heard about Oklahoma City through their friends in rowing. Aside from some concerns about the city’s ferocious winds, the athletes said they were pleased.

“I think they’ve definitely proven that they can provide a solid race course and event,” said Carrie Johnson, who earned a spot on the Olympic team in the 500-meter single kayak event on Friday.

Johnson was the only athlete over the weekend to be definitively selected for the United States team; the rest will be selected after races in Montreal and Szeged, Hungary.

“The actual boathouse is one of the best that I’ve seen,” she said.

The Oklahoma River has also won over Norman Bellingham, the chief operating officer of the United States Olympic Committee and a gold medalist in kayaking.

“I was a little bit in disbelief,” he said, recalling his initial reaction to rowing in Oklahoma City. “I had to come out and see it myself.”

Then, at the USA Rowing World Challenge held in Oklahoma City last October, Bellingham spotted a top competitor from New Zealand. He said he knew the site had been accepted.

Perhaps the best test, he said, was that he got few questions when he told people where the Olympic trials were being held. In the boating world, “it seems like a very natural, logical statement to make,” he said. “You don’t get that second look like, did I hear that correctly?”

[BigRedJed]

Incidentally, I had a great conversation with the parents of Carrie Johnson, who cemented her position on the Olympic team at the event. They were floored by both the venue and by downtown Oklahoma City. Previously they had no specific impression of OKC, and had no idea what to expect. They were extremely surprised. Praise like that isn't too shabby when it comes from people who call San Diego home.

[crawfish]

Wow. That's really cool.

Oklahoma, making smart decisions. Whoodathunkit?

[BudSooner]

Yeah, they are like progressive.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

Awesome.

[OU4LIFE]

Jed's like, cool and stuff.

[BigRedJed]

Don't go overboard. It's not like I ever shot a hole-in-one or anything.

[r5TPsooner]

Nice read, thanks Jed.

[King Crimson]

still the lesser part of the South Canadian to me.

[Jimminy Crimson]

I was surprised to see that article when I was leafing through the Times.

Very, very good stuff!

[BigRedJed]

I was surprised to see that article when I was leafing through the Times...
So were millions of New Yorkers.

[NormanPride]

Good stuff! I lament the flailing of Tulsa's economy, but at the same time it's nice to see OKC thriving so well. And, unlike previous booms, this economic growth seems sustainable for a long time.

[Condescending Sooner]

Since MAPS passed, we have lost GM and Dayton tire. We have gained what: A call center for Dell who is laying off employees left and right? I don't see all the great jobs we are gaining by passing all these taxes.

[King Crimson]

So were millions of New Yorkers.

naw, they love cute stories about the Provinces doggedly climbing the ladder of "civilization".

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

From today's papah:


Number of jobless falls again in state
By Debbie Blossom
Business Writer

Oklahoma's unemployment rate dropped for the second consecutive month, the latest figures from the Oklahoma Employment Security Commission (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Oklahoma+Employment+Security+Commission&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION) show.


The state's nonseasonally adjusted unemployment rate dipped to 3.2 percent in March from 3.5 percent in February, the OESC (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Oklahoma+Employment+Security+Commission&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION) said. The rate was noticeably down from 4.3 percent a year ago.

11,200 more jobs
Oklahoma also rated favorably last month compared to the entire country. The U.S. (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=United+States&CATEGORY=COUNTRY) jobless rate in March rose to 5.1 percent from 4.8 percent in February.

The state added 11,200 jobs last month, with more than half from the Oklahoma City and Tulsa metro areas, the OESC (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Oklahoma+Employment+Security+Commission&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION) reported. Statewide employment grew in all industries except manufacturing, which reported the loss of 100 jobs.

Total nonfarm employment in the Oklahoma City metro area expanded by 3,600 jobs in March, with 90 percent of that growth coming from the services providing industries, the OESC (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Oklahoma+Employment+Security+Commission&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION) said.

There were 2,700 more jobs than last year at the same time.

An increase of 900 jobs in trade, transportation and utilities sector for the month was the top growth sector, said OESC (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Oklahoma+Employment+Security+Commission&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION) economist Lynn Gray (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Lynn+Gray&CATEGORY=PERSON). And the bump up in jobs, though seasonally expected, "Is slightly above past years,” he said. "Only two years since 1990 have had higher growth” in that sector in the same time period, Gray (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Lynn+Gray&CATEGORY=PERSON) said.

Tulsa jobs increase, too
The leisure and hospitality segment, which includes restaurants and drinking establishments, also did well in March with the addition of 800 jobs. Educational and health services added 700 jobs in March and 2,700 positions year over year, the OESC (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Oklahoma+Employment+Security+Commission&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION) report said.

The Tulsa metropolitan area added 2,800 jobs during March. The most impressive gains came from 900 new jobs in the trade, transportation & utilities sector, primarily from gains in retail trade.

Natural resources and mining added 500 jobs and construction gained 400 positions.

Gray (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Lynn+Gray&CATEGORY=PERSON) said scrutiny of the March data on Oklahoma offered some surprises, especially compared to other parts of the country.

No decline here
A comparison with 11 other states showed that many — including California, Florida, Michigan and Ohio — are shedding jobs and posting declining payrolls. "Oklahoma is still growing with a 1 percent year-over-year growth,” he said. "That still puts us ahead of most states.”

So far, "We're not seeing the decline in labor markets here,” Gray (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Lynn+Gray&CATEGORY=PERSON) said, and though a full-blown recession will affect the state "My guess it won't be as bad here.”

[BigRedJed]

Since MAPS passed, we have lost GM and Dayton tire. We have gained what: A call center for Dell who is laying off employees left and right? I don't see all the great jobs we are gaining by passing all these taxes.
Wow. Nice outlook. I guess you don't get out much?

Well, I guess my first response is that MAPS was about rebuilding the city from within, which took a number of years and is still ongoing. We had to rebuild the city before we could be noticed. We are just now seeing the longterm results of that. As we conclude MAPS for Kids, and move on to other projects, we will continue to receive more and more recognition, including from people like the site relocation consultants that now claim OKC is one of the hottest markets in the nation.

Secondly, you are judging OKC's economic success by GM and Dayton Tire? Really? I respect that hardworking, bluecollar people were hard hit by those closures. It was a devastating thing for thousands of Oklahoma families. But that is now the nature of the beast in that business sector. Manufacturing jobs are being eliminated all over this country, for better or for worse. That is NOT somehow a reflection on Oklahoma City. That is an old economy, and adding manufacturing jobs would actually be a path to even more of these heartbreak moments.

Further, the Dayton plant was troubled from the day it opened, with ongoing labor disputes, which made it easy to pull the trigger on. Not OKC's fault. Nor was the closure of GM related to OKC's performance in any way, in fact that plant consistently was one of the highest ranking plants in the U.S. That plant was a casualty of a failing U.S. auto industry, and also (as I was told last week by someone actually from G.M., here to finalize plant shutdown), the victim of a poisonous relationship between the company and the local union head.

The new American economy is largely information and service based, and OKC is holding its own in those areas, not to mention the energy sector, which has always been the source of boom or bust in this state.

But if you think there have not been new jobs added to this economy, you are just plain wrong. Since 2004, Oklahoma City has gained 54,000 net new jobs. 54,000. NET. Unemployment here is among the lowest in the nation.

The U.S. Census also estimates that OKC is the 12th fastest-growing large city in the U.S. This from a city that had basically a growth flatline for years leading up to the present decade.

Expansion Management magazine consistently ranks OKC as one of the hottest markets for business expansion and relocation. That type of thing will ultimately translate to even more jobs.

But perhaps most importantly, the improvements we have made in this city since passing MAPS have made it easier to retain the companies and the talent we already have. For many years, college graduates assumed that they had to leave the state to get a good job and to live well. In addition, they believed they would be more happy living somewhere else. There has been a radical shift in that thinking, and surveys have recently shown huge increases in the percentage of college graduates planning to stay here.

In addition, companies that might have previously gotten "too big" for OKC, and moved somewhere like Dallas or Houston now are perfectly content to stay here. Sometimes it's easy to take for granted the companies and people who are already here, but they are THRIVING.

So be negative and crappy all you want, but personally I and most of this city are jumping on the happy train and are planning on riding it to Successville.

[Condescending Sooner]

I would say those increases are due to the price of oil and natural gas, not much due to MAPS. I am not against some of the projects, but to say it will create large numbers of jobs and attract industry is just dreaming.

Oh and I bet I get our more than you do.

[NormanPride]

But Jed, the taxes are so gal-durned high!

:rolleyes:

[Cam]

Since MAPS passed, we have lost GM and Dayton tire. We have gained what: A call center for Dell who is laying off employees left and right? I don't see all the great jobs we are gaining by passing all these taxes.

Manufacturing jobs are dropping like flies all over the US, not just OKC. The actual number of Dell layoffs affecting OKC is less than 0.5% of the total Dell layoffs. Quite a few of those that were laid off got picked up in other departments or sites, so the percentage is probably much lower than that.

Hate to break it to some of you, but OKC's a call center type of town, might as well get used to it. You can make some pretty damn good money in a call center, just be prepared to work for it. Would you rather OKC had the desktop manufacturing plant like Austin? The one that's closing down at the end of the year, or the call center that's still here providing jobs?

[BigRedJed]

We will probably only RARELY see companies come here that provide 2000 jobs or the like in one fell swoop. That doesn't happen anywhere these days, for the most part, because those are generally related to manufacturing.

What is more likely (and happening every day) is MANY companies (both homegrown and expanding from elswhere) adding jobs in the dozens, and ultimately, the hundreds. Specialized software, biotech, and other companies are examples of this type of growth.

[sooneron]

Manufacturing jobs are dropping like flies all over the US, not just OKC. The actual number of Dell layoffs affecting OKC is less than 0.5% of the total Dell layoffs. Quite a few of those that were laid off got picked up in other departments or sites, so the percentage is probably much lower than that.

Hate to break it to some of you, but OKC's a call center type of town, might as well get used to it. You can make some pretty damn good money in a call center, just be prepared to work for it. Would you rather OKC had the desktop manufacturing plant like Austin? The one that's closing down at the end of the year, or the call center that's still here providing jobs?

What he ^ said.

[sooneron]

We will probably only RARELY see companies come here that provide 2000 jobs or the like in one fell swoop. That doesn't happen anywhere these days, for the most part, because those are generally related to manufacturing.

What is more likely (and happening every day) is MANY companies (both homegrown and expanding from elswhere) adding jobs in the dozens, and ultimately, the hundreds. Specialized software, biotech, and other companies are examples of this type of growth.

And that is where you will get more of your sustained growth.

[royalfan5]

Has the University of Oklahoma been doing anything with attached technology parks to commercialize things developed at OU? UNL is going to convert the old Nebraska State Fairgrounds into a research park in the near future, to help support technologies developed on campus. The model we are using is based on of the one NC State has used successfully.

[BigRedJed]

...and I bet I get our more than you do.
What on EARTH could you base such a statement on? You know absolutely nothing about me. I on the other hand based my statement on the fact that you seem to think OKC is struggling economically, while anybody who has actually left their home in the past few years can see (literally) concrete examples of our hot economy everywhere.

From new housing (we have so far been mostly unscathed by the real estate bubble bursting -- knock on wood) to companies rapidly expanding their offices, even announcing skyscraper projects to accomodate all of the new employees they are adding, to high-end condominium construction in downtown to the rash of high-dollar iron prowling the streets. And surprisingly enough, MUCH of it has nothing to do with the energy sector.

Bah. I'm wasting my time with you. Anybody with any sense at all can see it.

[Condescending Sooner]

not to mention the energy sector, which has always been the source of boom or bust in this state.


I guess you and I do agree.

[Cam]

FWIW, Dell's decision came down to open a call center in either Wichita or OKC. Hell, the wife and I met in the building that Dell was considering buying in Wichita. A building that at its peak would hold less than 1,000 employees with zero possibility for expansion. The current buildings here have the capacity for 2,500-2,700 depending on configuration. If the 3rd building ever comes to fruition, the capacity will increase to 3,700+ seats.

IMO, without MAPS, OKC wouldn't have even been in the discussion. If you can't tell that it's made a difference on this town, then you're eyes are forever clouded.

[Condescending Sooner]

What on EARTH could you base such a statement on? You know absolutely nothing about me. I on the other hand based my statement on the fact that you seem to think OKC is struggling economically, while anybody who has actually left their home in the past few years can see (literally) concrete examples of our hot economy everywhere.

From new housing (we have so far been mostly unscathed by the real estate bubble bursting -- knock on wood) to companies rapidly expanding their offices, even announcing skyscraper projects to accomodate all of the new employees they are adding, to high-end condominium construction in downtown to the rash of high-dollar iron prowling the streets. And surprisingly enough, MUCH of it has nothing to do with the energy sector.

Bah. I'm wasting my time with you. Anybody with any sense at all can see it.

You said I obviously didn't get out much, and you know nothing about me, so eat it. I know as well as you the economic situation in Oklahoma. I just said it had little to do with MAPS.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

...I just said it had little to do with MAPS.

Really? You really believe that?

[Condescending Sooner]

Really? You really believe that?

YEP. If the oil and gas industry has another bust, how long will MAPS sustain the economy?

[sooneron]

MAPS is meant to sustain the economy? Shiver me timbers.

[BigRedJed]

Has the University of Oklahoma been doing anything with attached technology parks to commercialize things developed at OU? UNL is going to convert the old Nebraska State Fairgrounds into a research park in the near future, to help support technologies developed on campus. The model we are using is based on of the one NC State has used successfully.
Yeah, the Research Triangle model is being held up as an example by just about everybody. There has been a pretty focused effort by the City (Urban Renewal), the Chamber, the Presby Health Foundation, and the OU Health Center to create just that. There have been a number of really nice successes. Long way to go, though. They need more funding, of course.

Here's (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_/ai_n14716903) a good read from a couple of years ago on the subject.

[Cam]

Condescending Sooner,

What exactly is a "good" job to you?

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

YEP. If the oil and gas industry has another bust, how long will MAPS sustain the economy?

MAPS isn't...it's not...

...nevermind. Geez.

[BigRedJed]

You said I obviously didn't get out much, and you know nothing about me, so eat it. I know as well as you the economic situation in Oklahoma. I just said it had little to do with MAPS.
You're not a nice person. I know that.

[sooneron]

Sometimes usernames just kinda fit.

[BigRedJed]

Well, maybe "Head-in-the-Sand Sooner" would be better.

[sooneron]

LOL at your spek msg Jed.

[Condescending Sooner]

MAPS is meant to sustain the economy? Shiver me timbers.

You obviously didn't read all of the posts prior to your post.

[Condescending Sooner]

Condescending Sooner,

What exactly is a "good" job to you?


Not a call center job.

[Condescending Sooner]

You're not a nice person. I know that.

No you don't, you don't know me. So is everyone that disagrees with you not a nice person?

[sooneron]

Uh, ok whatever.

Correct if I'm wrong, JED, but I believe that MAPS was meant to spur development by strengthening the infrastructure of OKC. This was directed at the abysmal OKC school system and largely, the downtown area.
I have never heard of a bond that promised to "sustain the economy" of any given municipality.

[BigRedJed]

No you don't, you don't know me. So is everyone that disagrees with you not a nice person?
No, people who get riled up and tell posters they don't agree with to "eat it" are not nice people.

[Condescending Sooner]

Well, maybe "Head-in-the-Sand Sooner" would be better.


Again, I know as much or more than you about the Oklahoma economy. I have to read reports and projections on a daily basis. If you think that the price of oil and gas wasn't the major reason for the economic situation in Oklahoma, you have YOUR head in the sand.

[sooneron]

OKC boom of nowadays far > OKC boom of the 70's. This is largely in part due to the MAPS projects.

[sooneron]

I'm still waiting for someone to show that part where MAPS promises to sustain the economy and maybe wash my car every week and maybe mow my lawn for me...

:rolleyes:

[Condescending Sooner]

Uh, ok whatever.

Correct if I'm wrong, JED, but I believe that MAPS was meant to spur development by strengthening the infrastructure of OKC. This was directed at the abysmal OKC school system and largely, the downtown area.
I have never heard of a bond that promised to "sustain the economy" of any given municipality.


I never said is was SUPPOSED to sustain the economy, genius. I was responding to the person who asked me if I really believed that MAPS was not a major reason for our economic upswing.

[Cam]

Not a call center job.

Wow, what a great, informed, well thought out answer. :rolleyes:

Let me guess, you're one of those that thinks that all call center jobs are those where you're taking calls all day long. If that's the case, do yourself a favor and never bring up call centers in a discussion. You'll only prove that you have zero knowledge of what you're talking about.

[sooneron]

In post # 29 you questioned how long MAPS will sustain the economy. Buy a vowel please.
I have yet to see anyone say that MAPS will sustain the economy. Except for your presumption, of course.

[Condescending Sooner]

Wow, what a great, informed, well thought out answer. :rolleyes:

Let me guess, you're one of those that thinks that all call center jobs are those where you're taking calls all day long. If that's the case, do yourself a favor and never bring up call centers in a discussion. You'll only prove that you have zero knowledge of what you're talking about.


Let me guess, you work in a call center?

[Condescending Sooner]

In post # 29 you questioned how long MAPS will sustain the economy. Buy a vowel please.

Read the post above mine before making comments please?

[yermom]

Not a call center job.

this is true. you can only answer phones for so long

however, the energy sector was only briefly mentioned.

i too am a little underwhelmed by our "unemployment numbers"

service jobs don't really impress me

[sooneron]

I would rank a state bureaucrat way below call center dude.

[SoonerInKCMO]

service jobs don't really impress me

:les: I HAVE A SERVICE JOB!!

[Cam]

Let me guess, you work in a call center?

For quite some time. Very little of it on the phones. I also make a pretty damn good living. So do many of the people I work with. They bust their *** and earn what they make. Those that bitch about it usually have a hard time making it to work and expect a healthy paycheck just for being on the payroll.

Again, exactly what is a "good" job to you? Is it the industry, the company, the job itself?

[yermom]

I would rank a state bureaucrat way below call center dude.

huh?

[sooneron]

Read the post above mine before making comments please?


BSG - Really? You really believe that?

Uh, ok.

[SoonerInKCMO]

FYI - That article is #18 on the day's most e-mailed stories list on NYTimes.com. You hillbillies need to e-mail it to your friends so it will show up on the top 10 list on the main page.

[Cam]

this is true. you can only answer phones for so long

however, the energy sector was only briefly mentioned.

i too am a little underwhelmed by our "unemployment numbers"

service jobs don't really impress me

I've been in call centers off and on for 12 years. I spent a total of 7 months of that time on the phones. There's so much more going on it's not even funny.

I guess only energy sector employees have transferable skills. I guess you learn something new everyday.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

My head is swimming with mad and replies and spit and dang.

[BigRedJed]

Uh, ok whatever.

Correct if I'm wrong, JED, but I believe that MAPS was meant to spur development by strengthening the infrastructure of OKC. This was directed at the abysmal OKC school system and largely, the downtown area.
I have never heard of a bond that promised to "sustain the economy" of any given municipality.
That's right. OKC whiffed on some desperation economic development plans in the late '80s and early '90s and ultimately decided that it was in large part due to the fact that the city wasn't really a great place to live. Downtown was decimated by suburban flight and urban renewal, plus there was little to do and noplace to do it. There was a lot of talk about OKC's "brain drain," the best and the brightest moving to other cities and taking with them the ideas and work ethic they could have contributed.

Additionally, there was a cancer among residents, who typically suffer from the perpetual humility (almost to a fault) of Oklahomans. Put simply, Oklahoma City residents didn't believe in themselves or their city. Unfortunately, some people are still like that, but they are a dying breed.

MAPS was designed, more than anything, to change those things. Re-investment in ourselves, with the goal that the rest of the country would take notice. If they didn't notice, at least we would have a great place to live, and hopefully stem the tide of people leaving. I'd say our positive population growth is evidence that the latter is working, while our job growth is evidence that the former is.

The success of MAPS was followed shortly thereafter by the passage of MAPS for Kids, which was brought about to fix the hideous conditions of the public schools. There are myriad reasons the schools were in such bad shape, but that is for a different day. Suffice to say that by the time MAPS for Kids passed, there were schools in the district where you could literally see the blue sky through holes in the ceilings and roofs.

$700 million later, the schools are taking dramatic strides towards being on equal footing with the suburban schools. Academics need to follow, but so far there has been evidence of measurable change in that area.

So basically, we made a litany of changes to the city, much of which took years, and although a number of projects were completed in the late '90s and early aughts, it has really only been in the past 5 years or so that the changes in perceptions and attitudes have been palpable. Well, for most of the citizenry, anyway.

[yermom]

I've been in call centers off and on for 12 years. I spent a total of 7 months of that time on the phones. There's so much more going on it's not even funny.

I guess only energy sector employees have transferable skills. I guess you learn something new everyday.

are not the vast majority of the jobs at a call center answering phones? how many people are doing other stuff at a call center? how many people out of 100 answer phones for 7 months and get another job internally?


if the energy sector thing was directed at me, that's not where i was going with that statement at all...

[Condescending Sooner]

For quite some time. Very little of it on the phones. I also make a pretty damn good living. So do many of the people I work with. They bust their *** and earn what they make. Those that bitch about it usually have a hard time making it to work and expect a healthy paycheck just for being on the payroll.

Again, exactly what is a "good" job to you? Is it the industry, the company, the job itself?


There is nothing wrong with working in a call center. But I would guess that most people that work in a call center do spend a lot of time on the phone. I also don't think people that brag about MAPS creating jobs had call centers in mind.

I would like to see Oklahoma get more decent paying jobs for the average joe. It seems like in Oklahoma people are doing pretty well or not making jack. One only has to make one trip a year to the state fair to see that there are a large number of people that could use a better job.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

Wow.



This thread started out good, too.

[BigRedJed]

LOL at your spek msg Jed.
Heh. You should see the one that I just got. :D

[BigRedJed]

Wow.



This thread started out good, too.
Aww, it'll be good again. He has to sleep, eventually.

[BigRedJed]

Heh. So now Oklahoma's chief economic indicators are the GM plant, Dayton Tire, and the State Fair. That's rich.

[Cam]

are not the vast majority of the jobs at a call center answering phones? how many people are doing other stuff at a call center? how many people out of 100 answer phones for 7 months and get another job internally?

Well yeah, it's a call center. Call centers have to have Managers, Sr Managers, Directors, IT, Telecom, Project Managers, Reporting, HR, Operations, Facilities, etc... That's not taking into account the local companies that are under contract for their areas of specialization.

Just cause I work for a company that has a call center here, doesn't mean that I have a call center job.

My 7 months was with a different company, so there's no real comparison there. There are all kinds of jobs, it just depends on the persons skills and what they're wanting/willing to do and what's available.

Again, hate to break it to ya, but there are a hell of a lot more people in OKC that would work in a call center before having anything to do with manufacturing.



if the energy sector thing was directed at me, that's not where i was going with that statement at all...
Nope, just in general. Just seems to be a general feeling that call center employees are stupid simply cause they work in a call center. Kind of getting tired of the implication.

[yermom]

i never said anything about the people working in call centers (or service jobs)

it's just that we are talking about "2700 jobs" where most of those are people answering phones.

and i've spent WAY more than 7 months answering phones

[Cam]

There is nothing wrong with working in a call center. But I would guess that most people that work in a call center do spend a lot of time on the phone. I also don't think people that brag about MAPS creating jobs had call centers in mind.

I would like to see Oklahoma get more decent paying jobs for the average joe. It seems like in Oklahoma people are doing pretty well or not making jack. One only has to make one trip a year to the state fair to see that there are a large number of people that could use a better job.

See my post above this regarding the other jobs that are in a "call center".

Define the following:
Decent paying job:

Good job:

Seriously, you're giving nothing but generalities.

Come on, the state fair. That's your economic barometer???

[yermom]

how much does Joe Phoneanswerer make at the Dell place in OKC?

does he get benefits?

[Mjcpr]

how much does Joe Phoneanswerer make at the Dell place in OKC?

does he get benefits?

I'm pretty sure management is not allowed to discuss specific employees.

[BigRedJed]

yermom, I think you're thinking of the wrong definition for "service industry." I think you're reading it to mean someone who works at Starbucks. Sure, it can encompass things like hotel, retail and restaurant staff, etc. But it also includes architects, lawyers, and consultants. Healthcare. Real estate. Construction. Advertising. Media. These are jobs that are tertiary to other industries, and are a part of the "service sector."

[royalfan5]

how much does Joe Phoneanswerer make at the Dell place in OKC?

does he get benefits?

Verizon in Lincoln pays 26,500 and some of the insurance places up here get close to 30K. I would guess OKC would be pretty similar to that, if that helps.

[Condescending Sooner]

No, people who get riled up and tell posters they don't agree with to "eat it" are not nice people.


How about people that say others "don't get out much", or don't "have any sense"? Are they nice people?

[Cam]

i never said anything about the people working in call centers (or service jobs)
I didn't say you did. Even said "nope" earlier.


it's just that we are talking about "2700 jobs" where most of those are people answering phones.
To the best of my knowledge, the lowest paying on the phone job is $12/hr and there are less than 60 of those. Sales and Tech reps on average make quite a bit more than that. There are many Sales folks making $80K+. The opportunity's there. I don't know what more you could ask for.


and i've spent WAY more than 7 months answering phones
Each company, employee, and situation is different. That's why I said I can't really compare what I did to today's environment. It's was 12 years ago, things have changed slightly since then. I have no clue who you work for or what you do, so for me to comment on it would be crazy.

[Condescending Sooner]

See my post above this regarding the other jobs that are in a "call center".

Define the following:
Decent paying job:

Good job:

Seriously, you're giving nothing but generalities.

Come on, the state fair. That's your economic barometer???

A decent paying job in my opinion would be around $35,000, a good job would be around $50,000.

The state fair was just an example, you see people everywhere that fit in that mold and it is sad.

If call center employees average over $35,000, I apologize. The people I knew that worked at call centers did not make that much.

[Cam]

A decent paying job in my opinion would be around $35,000, a good job would be around $50,000.

The state fair was just an example, you see people everywhere that fit in that mold and it is sad.

If call center employees average over $35,000, I apologize. The people I knew that worked at call centers did not make that much.

Not all call centers or call center jobs are created equal. Dell is doing way more than their fair share for the OKC economy if those are the numbers you're going by.

[Condescending Sooner]

Not all call centers or call center jobs are created equal. Dell is doing way more than their fair share for the OKC economy if those are the numbers you're going by.

The guy I know that worked at Dell and just got laid off did not make nearly that much. He must have been in the minority.

[yermom]

I didn't say you did. Even said "nope" earlier.


To the best of my knowledge, the lowest paying on the phone job is $12/hr and there are less than 60 of those. Sales and Tech reps on average make quite a bit more than that. There are many Sales folks making $80K+. The opportunity's there. I don't know what more you could ask for.


Each company, employee, and situation is different. That's why I said I can't really compare what I did to today's environment. It's was 12 years ago, things have changed slightly since then. I have no clue who you work for or what you do, so for me to comment on it would be crazy.

i was responding to this:
Nope, just in general. Just seems to be a general feeling that call center employees are stupid simply cause they work in a call center. Kind of getting tired of the implication.

i don't answer phones anymore, and i'd rather not again. i always said telemarketers had it easy, people want you to get off the phone ;)

[Cam]

The guy I know that worked at Dell and just got laid off did not make nearly that much. He must have been in the minority.

PM me what group he worked in and what job he had and I'll tell you if he's full of chit or not. Was he even a Dell employee, or was he a temp? Big difference there.

Not everybody's going to make the average. That's why it's an average.

[yermom]

yermom, I think you're thinking of the wrong definition for "service industry." I think you're reading it to mean someone who works at Starbucks. Sure, it can encompass things like hotel, retail and restaurant staff, etc. But it also includes architects, lawyers, and consultants. Healthcare. Real estate. Construction. Advertising. Media. These are jobs that are tertiary to other industries, and are a part of the "service sector."

hmm... semantics i suppose

[BigRedJed]

How about people that say others "don't get out much", or don't "have any sense"? Are they nice people?
Man, I really can't believe that I'm going to get into a semantics debate with you, but here goes:

"Don't get out much" was simply referring to your original assertions that we really don't have any new jobs to speak of since MAPS passed (now that THAT has been discounted, your focus has changed to the quality of the jobs, of course). I don't think that was attacking, only saying if you got out of your house, or job, or wherever, it is pretty obvious that jobs are abundant here, and that people are doing pretty well compared to 1993.

The other comment was pretty generalized, and not as you characterize it. I specifically said "anybody with any sense at all can see it." And I stand by that statement. If you want to project that to yourself (which would be admittedly easy to do, since you're the only one I am having to debate on the issue of whether or not MAPS has benefitted Oklahoma City), well, project away. I think your argument on this issue IS nonsensical.

But, that is a world away from telling another poster that you're disagreeing with to "eat it." Isn't it?

So yeah, I think that someone who makes the statements outlined above IS a nice person. Especially when you consider how tempting you make it to attack you personally.

[BigRedJed]

hmm... semantics i suppose
No, economics. Bankers? Service industry. Financial consultants? Service industry. Computer/Internet consultants? Service industry.

[Cam]

i don't answer phones anymore, and i'd rather not again. i always said telemarketers had it easy, people want you to get off the phone ;)

Telemarketers = outbound cold calling to me. That was my last sales job and I'll never do it again. There's nothing like New Yorker's telling you to go fuk yourself at 7 in the morning. Sure does get your day started the right way...

Inbound sales folks have it easy. People are calling you, wanting to give you their money. If you can't make a good living doing that, then you should forever give up a career in sales.

[Cam]

how much does Joe Phoneanswerer make at the Dell place in OKC?

I have no clue what the real overall average pay is. There are too many types of jobs for me to give an answer to that. And yes, that includes on the phone jobs. There are easily 20 different types of phone queues, and each of them is a different function and different pay structure.


does he get benefits?

All Dell employees get benefits. Temp employees do not.

[Condescending Sooner]

Man, I really can't believe that I'm going to get into a semantics debate with you, but here goes:

"Don't get out much" was simply referring to your original assertions that we really don't have any new jobs to speak of since MAPS passed (now that THAT has been discounted, your focus has changed to the quality of the jobs, of course). I don't think that was attacking, only saying if you got out of your house, or job, or wherever, it is pretty obvious that jobs are abundant here, and that people are doing pretty well compared to 1993.

The other comment was pretty generalized, and not as you characterize it. I specifically said "anybody with any sense at all can see it." And I stand by that statement. If you want to project that to yourself (which would be admittedly easy to do, since you're the only one I am having to debate on the issue of whether or not MAPS has benefitted Oklahoma City), well, project away. I think your argument on this issue IS nonsensical.

But, that is a world away from telling another poster that you're disagreeing with to "eat it." Isn't it?

So yeah, I think that someone who makes the statements outlined above IS a nice person. Especially when you consider how tempting you make it to attack you personally.

I said MAPS was not the reason for our economic situation, oil and gas prices were. You can continue to ignore that, but it is true. Talk about non-sensical.

[Jimminy Crimson]

I said MAPS was not the reason for our economic situation, oil and gas prices were. You can continue to ignore that, but it is true. Talk about non-sensical.

If not for MAPS, OKC would be a totally different place and Devon and CHK would probably be in Houston.

The above is true, even if you ignore it.

[Condescending Sooner]

If not for MAPS, OKC would be a totally different place and Devon and CHK would probably be in Houston.

The above is true, even if you ignore it.


No it is not true actually. You think MAPS kept Devon and CHK from going to Houston?

I think MAPS has done some good things, but to credit it for our economic situation is foolhardy. What is the turnover rate for businesses in Bricktown?

[TMcGee86]

pfft.

call me when you get hills and trees.

[CORNholio]

Hell, maps was enough to bring pro sports to this state (knock on wood). I would call it a winner.

[Jimminy Crimson]

No it is not true actually. You think MAPS kept Devon and CHK from going to Houston?

I think MAPS has done some good things, but to credit it for our economic situation is foolhardy. What is the turnover rate for businesses in Bricktown?

There wasn't much going for OKC pre-MAPS. What was keeping Devon and CHK from moving? There wasn't anything in downtown OKC/Bricktown. Western Ave was pretty non-existant. Quality of life and showing off their hometown have kept Aubrey and Larry strongly rooted in Oklahoma.

[tommieharris91]

Why do I think reading half of this thread has made me dumber? BRJ and BSG are pwning right now.

Yep, I want my brain cells and 20 minutes reading this thread back.

[BigRedJed]

I said MAPS was not the reason for our economic situation, oil and gas prices were. You can continue to ignore that, but it is true. Talk about non-sensical.
Good lord, man. I have NEVER denied that the energy sector contributes mightily to our economic well-being. Quit misrepresenting my postition. I've said it on this board for years, like something that obvious even needs repeating. In gas price threads ON THIS BOARD, since gasoline was well below $2.00 per gallon, I have mentioned the tremendous positive economic impact on Oklahoma of high gas prices as one of the main reasons they were NOT a bad thing. OF COURSE it plays a giant role in our current success. This very week I mentioned (only half joking) that I hoped oil went to $200 a barrel.

But just because one industry is going ape**** doesn't change the fact that OKC has been rebounding for the past decade (even before oil went up), and that the rebound is attributed in large part to MAPS by pretty much everybody. And like Jimminy says, there is enormous pressure on energy comanies to relocate to Houston (in part because of the available energy-sector trained workforce), and OKC companies have resisted that trend, again due in part to MAPS.

Aubrey McClendon and Larry Nichols are BOTH on record saying that one of the main reasons they have stayed here is because of the progress OKC is making related to MAPS and subsequent issues, and that the improvements have made it easier to hire and retain quality employees.

The fact that you're sitting here making the case that basically, MAPS has amounted to very little makes your argument such a nonstarter that I can't believe that I'm even wasting time on you. I think you just want to argue.

And you've turned a nice, positive thread that people were enjoying into a negative, crappy slapfight. Congratulations.

[bluedogok]

Stupid double click....

[bluedogok]

Manufacturing jobs are dropping like flies all over the US, not just OKC. The actual number of Dell layoffs affecting OKC is less than 0.5% of the total Dell layoffs. Quite a few of those that were laid off got picked up in other departments or sites, so the percentage is probably much lower than that.

Hate to break it to some of you, but OKC's a call center type of town, might as well get used to it. You can make some pretty damn good money in a call center, just be prepared to work for it. Would you rather OKC had the desktop manufacturing plant like Austin? The one that's closing down at the end of the year, or the call center that's still here providing jobs?
There are 1,200 Dell employees that got laid off here in the Austin area at the above referenced plant closing and at the Round Rock HQ.

The energy sector has helped greatly in recent years as it has been going up and up but it was still in a somewhat down cycle (but steadily rising) at the start of MAPS, gas was still right around 1.00 a gallon and was quite often below during that period. MAPS was a catalyst for OKC and it went far beyond most peoples expectations.


service jobs don't really impress me


yermom, I think you're thinking of the wrong definition for "service industry." I think you're reading it to mean someone who works at Starbucks. Sure, it can encompass things like hotel, retail and restaurant staff, etc. But it also includes architects, lawyers, and consultants. Healthcare. Real estate. Construction. Advertising. Media. These are jobs that are tertiary to other industries, and are a part of the "service sector."
As BRJ pointed out, I am in a service industry, architecture. People seem to think we do decently in the salary area.

If you want a good read on the Urban Renewal/MAPS history, check out Steve Lackmeyer's OKC Second Time Around at Full Circle Books (http://www.fullcirclebooks.com/).

[tommieharris91]

Did you need to double post just to add a sentence?

[yermom]

There are 1,200 Dell employees that got laid off here in the Austin area at the above referenced plant closing and at the Round Rock HQ.

The energy sector has helped greatly in recent years as it has been going up and up but it was still in a somewhat down cycle (but steadily rising) at the start of MAPS, gas was still right around 1.00 a gallon and was quite often below during that period. MAPS was a catalyst for OKC and it went far beyond most peoples expectations.




As BRJ pointed out, I am in a service industry, architecture. People seem to think we do decently in the salary area.

If you want a good read on the Urban Renewal/MAPS history, check out Steve Lackmeyer's OKC Second Time Around at Full Circle Books (http://www.fullcirclebooks.com/).

ok, i guess i'm kinda thinking about "service jobs" in the wrong way, i'm not generally talking about professional jobs. those are kinda in the minority anyway. we may have a lot of people employed, but what about people that are underemployed? of course people have jobs if they settle for waiting tables or something. it's a lot easier around here to pay the rent doing that than other places though

[Frozen Sooner]

I'm curious in what world it's better to be unemployed than it is to be a waiter.

I mean, I realize that I'm just a service industry plebe and all, but if I were unemployed for any length of time I'd be pretty happy to take a job as a waiter.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

Are there any 35,000$ waiter jobs...unless there is, I would rather be homeless!!

[Chuck Bao]

I’m rating this thread a five star.

This thread has everything from an upbeat NY Times article on Oklahoma, news about Oklahoma gaining jobs in the weakening economy and the worst financial crisis to hit the US since the Great Depression, a discussion on the quality of jobs, salary ranges, a cute debate about semantics and the service industry and last but not least rowing.

I have to admit that I had anxiety attacks in high school and university as to what economic value I could possibly add in this world which would earn me a living and, in truth, I still do. Bear in mind that I was desperately trying to escape the family farm back then. In some sort of weird twist of fate, I wound up on exactly on the opposite side of the world and making my living writing stock market advice. I still can’t believe that I get paid for my opinions.

My job is like a call center job or a waiter at a restaurant, I think. Anyway I’d take these jobs, even though I hate talking on the phone and I don’t really work well with people. I’m not about to look down my nose at anything. I do hope I’m never homeless.

I love Jed and his promotion of MAPS and OKC. Oil industry or not, this gives hope of a better future to our young kids growing up in the city or on farms.

I especially love that NY Times article on rowing. This is the major point of my post. Parents, if you have the opportunity, please enroll your kids in any rowing projects if there are any.

If there are 3-4 universities building boating clubs on the river, possibly they allow for summer training open to the public.

This is my sport and I love it. Imagine gliding over the water and the only noise is your oars dipping into the water and the sound of your breath. The only equivalent joy I can think of is the sound of skiing down a pristine mountain side or riding a bike down a cool tree lined mountain.

I’ve thought many times about returning home and one of the first things I’d do is buy a single skull to row on Lake Texoma. If I were rich, I would build a boathouse and give the local high schools a chance to enjoy the sport.

Okay, there is probably a better chance of me being a waiter or a Walmart greeter.

The MAPS thing is there and I think it will prove to be an improvement over the lives of many. This opportunity should be taken advantage of.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

Can you get Nope to give me the cliff notes version of that? ;)

[Chuck Bao]

Can you get Nope to give me the cliff notes version of that? ;)

Heh! Nope is too busy with managing his farm with rice prices doubling and all. He will be rich far before I will. I shouldn't have left the farm!

[yermom]

I'm curious in what world it's better to be unemployed than it is to be a waiter.

I mean, I realize that I'm just a service industry plebe and all, but if I were unemployed for any length of time I'd be pretty happy to take a job as a waiter.

i'm pretty sure i didn't say that :P

[Frozen Sooner]

i'm pretty sure i didn't say that :P


of course people have jobs if they settle for waiting tables or something.

Your implication is that waiting tables is somehow worthless to someone who doesn't have a job and that they shouldn't be happy to find work.

[Mixer!]

Dear Lord, I think I'd rather go read orangepower.com.

:les: :stunned: [hairGel]

[SoonerInKCMO]

Your implication is that waiting tables is somehow worthless to someone who doesn't have a job and that they shouldn't be happy to find work.

Seems to me that the point was more like "what does a low unemployment figure really mean if many people are underemployed and over-qualified for their jobs?"

[OU4LIFE]

I've never understood that line of thinking. "that job is beneath me' Dude, if you're not working, there's no such thing as a job that is beneath someone. You can send out resume after resume and still dig a ditch while you are looking.

I had a guy that used to live across the street from me, always complaining that he didn't have the gas turned on cause it was too expensive and he was living off he savings after being divorced and out of work....he had an electrical engineering degree and had SEVERAL opportunities to work for 8-9 bucks an hour...but that wasn't 'worth his time'

farking moran. LAZY farking moran.

[JohnnyMack]

I've never understood that line of thinking. "that job is beneath me' Dude, if you're not working, there's no such thing as a job that is beneath someone. You can send out resume after resume and still dig a ditch while you are looking.

I had a guy that used to live across the street from me, always complaining that he didn't have the gas turned on cause it was too expensive and he was living off he savings after being divorced and out of work....he had an electrical engineering degree and had SEVERAL opportunities to work for 8-9 bucks an hour...but that wasn't 'worth his time'

farking moran. LAZY farking moran.

Was he holding out for a management postition?

[OU4LIFE]

he was holding out for a effing handout.

I have zero use for those people.

[JohnnyMack]

I can't swim Clark.

[yermom]

I've never understood that line of thinking. "that job is beneath me' Dude, if you're not working, there's no such thing as a job that is beneath someone. You can send out resume after resume and still dig a ditch while you are looking.

I had a guy that used to live across the street from me, always complaining that he didn't have the gas turned on cause it was too expensive and he was living off he savings after being divorced and out of work....he had an electrical engineering degree and had SEVERAL opportunities to work for 8-9 bucks an hour...but that wasn't 'worth his time'

farking moran. LAZY farking moran.

i'm not saying someone shouldn't take a $8-9 job. i'm saying that it's not really a good employment situation in a city/state/country if lots of people qualified for better jobs are having to take jobs like that. you can talk about low the unemployment rate is, but if college graduates need to take McJobs to stay in Oklahoma, it kinda sucks

[Frozen Sooner]

You know, out of college I couldn't find work for three months-mainly because I had a degree that wasn't really in high demand (Economics.)

I took a "McJob" at $24k a year. That "McJob" has directly led me to where I am now. I'm not saying that I'm rich or anything, but I make enough money to own a home, drive a late-model car, dump a bunch of money into my 401(k), etc etc.

I think that if more college graduates would realize that they majored in something that isn't in high demand and would get over themselves instead of showing up for work with an attitude that certain work is beneath them, they'd probably get ahead a little faster.

[OU4LIFE]

I can't swim Clark.

SHARK!

[yermom]

24k a year is a pretty good McJob ;)

[JohnnyMack]

SHARK!

Quit ****ing up my Christmas Vacation threadjack.



****tin' bricks.

You know you really shouldn't talk like that.

Sorry, ****tin' rocks.

[Frozen Sooner]

24k a year is a pretty good McJob ;)

You think so?

It's about what I pay my tellers. Actually, factoring in sales and quarterly bonuses, I pay them more than that.

[JohnnyMack]

I took a "McJob" at $24k a year. That "McJob" has directly led me to where I am now. I'm not saying that I'm rich or anything, but I make enough money to be the ultimate early adopter.

:D

[Frozen Sooner]

And don't get me wrong-if the same number of people are going to be employed, sure, it's a better sign for all of them to be working kickass jobs making six figures than it is for all of them to be working at a carwash. It's not like Oklahoma was sacrificing high-earning jobs to get the low-earning jobs, the high-earning jobs were leaving anyhow. Sure, many of the jobs created were on the lower end of the earnings spectrum-but all things being equal, I'd rather have 5,000 "McJobs" out there than no jobs at all.

Heh. I'm mindful of a woman of my acquaintance who was about to receive her B.A. in Economics from UAA a couple of years ago who blithely told me that she wasn't going to consider any job offers under $75k per year.

Expectations are wack, yo.

[OU4LIFE]

Quit ****ing up my Christmas Vacation threadjack.



****tin' bricks.

You know you really shouldn't talk like that.

Sorry, ****tin' rocks.

stop making it so easy.

[tommieharris91]

Heh. I'm mindful of a woman of my acquaintance who was about to receive her B.A. in Economics from UAA a couple of years ago who blithely told me that she wasn't going to consider any job offers under $75k per year.

Expectations are wack, yo.


Wow, I'm about to graduate from OU with the same degree and I would gladly take anything paying $40k+. I haven't done much job searching though.

[Frozen Sooner]

Yeah, I explained to her that I had a BA in Economics from a better university and I didn't make that much after several years in the workforce.

Interestingly enough, she took a job with the state, making her salary a matter of public record.

I guess her expectations got a big dose of reality when the offers started actually coming in.

[yermom]

You think so?

It's about what I pay my tellers. Actually, factoring in sales and quarterly bonuses, I pay them more than that.

you hirin'?

:D

[Stoop Dawg]

ok, i guess i'm kinda thinking about "service jobs" in the wrong way, i'm not generally talking about professional jobs. those are kinda in the minority anyway.

Professional jobs in the minority? I don't have any numbers, so maybe you are right, but there is no doubt that this country is heading in that direction. Look at the NE, they're hurting bad right now due to losses in mfg. Those jobs have moved overseas and they ain't coming back.

If Oklahoma was a sustainable economy, the "service industry" is the way to go. An emphasis on "professional" jobs is good, but any service job is better (i.e. more stable) than a mfg job at this point.

Also, as BRJ said (I think), small business is where it's at. You want small boutiques with high $$$ jobs. Our company employs 10(ish) people. The lowest salary is about $50K, but at least half make over $90K.

Also, don't forget the airport refurb. That's huge. Now OKC just needs more direct flights. Would be nice if they could get some airline to make it a hub.

[Cam]

Heh. I'm mindful of a woman of my acquaintance who was about to receive her B.A. in Economics from UAA a couple of years ago who blithely told me that she wasn't going to consider any job offers under $75k per year.

Expectations are wack, yo.

Expectations were even worse when I was getting out of school during the internet boom. At least I know mine were. Reality was quite a kick in the pants.

[Frozen Sooner]

Sure. C'mon up.

[BigRedJed]

Why are you saying the only jobs here are McJobs? Seriously? Based on what? According to this website (http://www.simplyhired.com/a/local-jobs/city/l-Oklahoma+City,+OK) (I intentionally chose a national site that should be unbiased, unlike a Chamber-type site), the average salary in OKC is $33,000. Not Silicon Valley, by any means, but those aren't all burger flippers, either. In fact, when you consider the number of people who ARE burger flippers, there have to be a crapload of high-paying jobs to balance them out.

Here's another site (http://www.payscale.com/research/US/City=Oklahoma_City/Salary) that breaks down what people can expect to be paid here, on the average, based on years of experience.

I think that basing your economic opinion of the city on your own hiring, lack-of-hiring or layoff experiences or of people who are close to you might give a skewed perspective. For instance, if many of the people someone knows are be blue-collar manufacturing workers, it might make you think OKC is struggling, based on plant shutdowns in the past couple of years (but actuall caused by external forces). If you have a degree or experience in some very specialized area that doesn't translate well to this market, and are having a hard time finding employment in your field, you might also have a negative view.

But that doesn't mean that the rest of the economy sucks, or that things are only good in one area, or that the people who are employed are all burger flippers and bartenders. NTTAWWT.

[yermom]

i didn't say there were only McJobs, but saying that OKC has a very low unemployment rate isn't the same as having a lot of decent jobs for college grads

that's all i'm saying

i've basically never looked for a job around here... i've seen a lot of people graduate though, and not a lot stuck around here for decent jobs

when i say "McJob (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McJob)" i mean something below what the person is qualified for, not necessarily flipping burgers

[CORNholio]

24,000/yr job in Oklahoma=$60,000 job in California. The "McJobs" available here still allow a person to live a more comfortable life than a "McJob" on the west coast. I say the creation of any job is a good thing. Less people on welfare, less people doing desperate things for money, crime goes down, more dollars circulating in the local economy, it directly/indirectly effects everyone. What is not to like?

[yermom]

that's why i was saying $24k is pretty good. Mike's in Alaska, not here.

[CORNholio]

Although I can see the other side of the argument that it would be better to bring in high wage jobs first. They inturn will attract the lower paying jobs to support the higher paying jobs (i.e. the Dr., Lawyer, and Scientist need places to eat/shop/etc.). But it is still a good step to aid creation of any job. Idol hands are the workshop of a not so nice guy.

[CORNholio]

The thing is that those high wage jobs don't just relocate anywhere 90% of the time. They can afford to pick and chose and look at the more trivial things like "quality of life", exactly what MAPS was designed to help remedy. The problem is that OKC was so far in the toilet that it could easily take OKC 20+ years to recover and start landing those research facilities,etc. It is going in the right direction though.

[BigRedJed]

...i've seen a lot of people graduate though, and not a lot stuck around here for decent jobs...
And my next question is, did they all even bother to look? If not, I would guess part of that is due to the long-held perception that college students have had that they have to leave OKC to get a good job, and furthermore, that they would more likely enjoy living somewhere else. My generation (college in the mid-late 80s and early 90s) were the embodiment of that mindset, due in large part to the truthfulness (at the time) in both statements. To bring this thread full-circle those things (especially the latter) are the things MAPS was designed to change. And it is working, there can be little doubt.

As far as opportunities here, I can say this: I was involved in an OKC Chamber job fair, targeted specifically at new college graduates, just a couple of weeks ago. More than 100 companies and organizations were there, BEGGING people to come work for them. Maybe 4 or 5 were energy sector, BTW. Of course, companies like Chesapeake and Devon had the biggest, flashiest booths, but there was a pretty wide array represented.

I think there are plenty of good, available jobs in this town. The shortage is in qualified people.