We can't win

[Sooner_Havok]

And no, I am not talking about the "war on terror"

Biofuels are Bad (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20602099&sid=anmEvzMVw3eA&refer=energy)

If we keep using foreign oil, we are killing the environment and feeding terrorists. If we grow our own fuel, we are killing the environment and starving the poor. WTF?!?!

And last I checked, not much rain forest in the US or UK. And again, last I checked, corn grown in Iowa is grown in the US, and thus is ours to do whatever we want to with. I don't see the problem here, let the US and UK grow their own fuel, that will lower the demand for oil, hence lower the price of oil. If the US "goes green" then the world will have greatly reduced it "carbon footprint" and the rest of the developing worl can continue to use arab oil until the figure out who to balance food production and biofuel production.

Blaming the US and the UK for causing deforestation by switching to biofuels seems pretty nearsighted to me

[sooner_born_1960]

Not that I give a damn about carbon footprints, but doesn't ethanol have a similar one to petroleum?

[Sooner_Havok]

Not that I give a damn about carbon footprints, but doesn't ethanol have a similar one to petroleum?

Yeah. But, in theory, if you continue to replant the biofuel crop year after year, it will reabsorb the same amount of carbon that cars burning fuels derived from previous crops emit.

So, again in theory, carbon levels would level off instead of continuing upward.

[sooner_born_1960]

OK. Whatever. If it's cost effective for the producer to grow corn for fuel, he should go ahead and do it.

[tommieharris91]

And no, I am not talking about the "war on terror"

Biofuels are Bad (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20602099&sid=anmEvzMVw3eA&refer=energy)

If we keep using foreign oil, we are killing the environment and feeding terrorists. If we grow our own fuel, we are killing the environment and starving the poor. WTF?!?!

And last I checked, not much rain forest in the US or UK. And again, last I checked, corn grown in Iowa is grown in the US, and thus is ours to do whatever we want to with. I don't see the problem here, let the US and UK grow their own fuel, that will lower the demand for oil, hence lower the price of oil.

What your assumpition misses here is that, while oil demand is falling because people are using a substitute, demand for corn, and thus the price of corn, corn products, and livestock that eat corn, rises due to finding a new use for it. Farmers will plant more corn to bring down the price of corn, crowding out other crops, driving their supply down and their price up.

[olevetonahill]

I like Ethanol , Just sayin

[Jerk]

I like Ethanol , Just sayin

:D

[Jerk]

Do the same people who buy into the ethanol scam also fall prey to Nigerian emails?

[Sooner_Havok]

What your assumpition misses here is that, while oil demand is falling because people are using a substitute, demand for corn, and thus the price of corn, corn products, and livestock that eat corn, rises due to finding a new use for it. Farmers will plant more corn to bring down the price of corn, crowding out other crops, driving their supply down and their price up.

Yeah, corn is a **** poor crop for biofuels. Algae on the other hand... (http://gas2.org/2008/03/29/first-algae-biodiesel-plant-goes-online-april-1-2008/)

seems that it might offer the biggest bang for the buck. Only problem, kicking the corn producing farmer of America of the government subsidy teat.

[sooner_born_1960]

Hey, as soon as I send that nice Nigerian banking offical 300 more dollars, we'll see who's falling prey to what.

[olevetonahill]

Do the same people who buy into the ethanol scam also fall prey to Nigerian emails?

If ya drink enough of that ethanol . you will prolly get drunk enough to drink that Nigerian Cool aid .
:eek:

[Sooner_Havok]

All I know is that until we can build more nukes, or until photovoltaic cells efficiency increases, biofuels seem like a good idea. I'm "mad as hell" and I don't want other countries to continue to leach of America. Us US Americans do enough leaching as it is, we don't need any more help.

[Jerk]

The only thing good that can come from this is if corn gets so expensive that it's cheaper for the soda makers to go back to using real sugar.

[Jerk]

All I know is that until we can build more nukes, or until photovoltaic cells efficiency increases, biofuels seem like a good idea. I'm "mad as hell" and I don't want other countries to continue to leach of America. Us US Americans do enough leaching as it is, we don't need any more help.

Yeah! I think we should drill for our own oil instead of buying it from that commie punk Chavez.

[Sooner_Havok]

Yeah! I think we should drill for our own oil instead of buying it from that commie punk Chavez.

Still kind of short sighted. Think of all the oil used in the US from 1950 to now. Think there is that much oil still buried under US soil? We gots to find something else to sever the ties to the middle east permanently.

[Jerk]

Think there is that much oil still buried under US soil?

We have more oil than Saudi Arabia in the rocky mountains and dakotas. As metioned in another thread, it is now economical to drill for it (shale oil). We also have 10.4 BILLION barrels under ANWAR but we can't drill for it without the hippies crying. There are enormous reserves offshore, like in the Gulf of Mexico.


http://www.doi.gov/news/030312.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14678206/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5318776.stm

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/u_s__has_massive_oil.html

[Sooner_Havok]

We have more oil than Saudi Arabia in the rocky mountains and dakotas. As metioned in another thread, it is now economical to drill for it (shale oil). We also have 10.4 BILLION barrels under ANWAR but we can't drill for it without the hippies crying. There are enormous reserves offshore, like in the Gulf of Mexico.


http://www.doi.gov/news/030312.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14678206/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5318776.stm

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/u_s__has_massive_oil.html

Kay, but presently the US burns through about 7,154,000,000 barrels of oil a year, that is 7.154 Billion barrels of oil per year, and that is a low number.

[StoopTroup]

When the rest of the World runs out....we'll get the price we truly deserve.

Quit being a bunch of "I want it now" types.

We need to build 9 more Nimitz Class Carriers IMO.

Then even the Chinese will fall in line at the Boone Pickens Filling Stations World Wide.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

[Okla-homey]

Okay, here's my suggestion.

Lets go completely nuclear for public electricity ASAP.

At the same time, lets convert to hybrid gas-electric for cars and trucks. Since the car batteries will be recharged from safe, clean, efficient nuclear public utilities, we should save beaucoup on the carbon emissions.

There. Now, when may I claim my Nobel prize please?

Oh, and please, no anti-nuclear talk. Even France is building reactors as fast as it can. It is the "progressive" way of the future for public utilities. As far as the nuke waste goes, heck, we got lots of big square far-western states. We just pick one, dig a very deep hole and drop that stuff into it. Or, there is this thing called the Marianas Trench in the middle of the Pacific where the ocean is several miles deep. El Dumpo into no problemo.

[olevetonahill]

Shoot that **** into Outer space .

[tbl]

Hemp...

[soonerinabilene]

Hemp...

how is getting high going to solve anything? We would just eat all the corn.;)

[Frozen Sooner]

Okay, here's my suggestion.

Lets go completely nuclear for public electricity ASAP.

At the same time, lets convert to hybrid gas-electric for cars and trucks. Since the car batteries will be recharged from safe, clean, efficient nuclear public utilities, we should save beaucoup on the carbon emissions.

There. Now, when may I claim my Nobel prize please?

Oh, and please, no anti-nuclear talk. Even France is building reactors as fast as it can. It is the "progressive" way of the future for public utilities. As far as the nuke waste goes, heck, we got lots of big square far-western states. We just pick one, dig a very deep hole and drop that stuff into it. Or, there is this thing called the Marianas Trench in the middle of the Pacific where the ocean is several miles deep. El Dumpo into no problemo.

I'm pretty down with all that except that the Marianas trench idea needs more work. We don't want a container of nuclear waste rupturing down there.

'Cause that leads to Godzilla.

But yeah, converting from coal and oil to nuclear (supplemented by wind and solar) power for primary electricity generation is something that needs to happen.

Something that tickles the back of my head when it comes to wind and solar power that I think may be getting ignored: TANSTAAFL. If we're generating power off of wind power, we're having an effect (if miniscule) on weather patterns. If we're generating power from solar energy, we're altering the Earth's albedo and increasing the amount of solar radiation that's captured in the atmosphere.

Just something to think about. Maybe someone's already thought about the possible unintended consequences.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Build some tanker starships, and load 'em up for Frnobulac. Heck, even if they don't make it all the way, due to a meteor shower, or whatever, they will be out there FAR ENOUGH.

[SoonerInKCMO]

Godzirra!
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y52/ToddG/godzirra.jpg

[Frozen Sooner]

Build some tanker starships, and load 'em up for Frnobulac. Heck, even if they don't make it all the way, due to a meteor shower, or whatever, they will be out there FAR ENOUGH.

Until one of the ships carrying the stuff blows up on takeoff high enough for the stuff to get into the jetstream.

Plus, we may figure out a way to make fuel out of nuclear waste some day. Might want to have it in an accessible place.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Until one of the ships carrying the stuff blows up on takeoff high enough for the stuff to get into the jetstream.

Plus, we may figure out a way to make fuel out of nuclear waste some day. Might want to have it in an accessible place.We could build a flexible pipeline, and transport the end of it to Uranus, strap it down really good, and then "Let 'er rip".

[shaun4411]

how is getting high going to solve anything? We would just eat all the corn.;)

worked in ww1

[Sooner_Havok]

Okay, here's my suggestion.

Lets go completely nuclear for public electricity ASAP.

At the same time, lets convert to hybrid gas-electric for cars and trucks. Since the car batteries will be recharged from safe, clean, efficient nuclear public utilities, we should save beaucoup on the carbon emissions.

There. Now, when may I claim my Nobel prize please?

Oh, and please, no anti-nuclear talk. Even France is building reactors as fast as it can. It is the "progressive" way of the future for public utilities. As far as the nuke waste goes, heck, we got lots of big square far-western states. We just pick one, dig a very deep hole and drop that stuff into it. Or, there is this thing called the Marianas Trench in the middle of the Pacific where the ocean is several miles deep. El Dumpo into no problemo.

I was thinking about this and I can one up you homey! Go to hydrogen fuel cells to produce the electricity for the cars. What is the by product of hydrogen fuel cells? Water! Instead of letting the water evaporate into the atmosphere, we keep it in a reserve tank in the car. When the car goes to get more hydrogen, the water is pumped out at the same time, and all of a sudden you have metric **** tons of water. This water would probably be deemed non potable though, so what do you do with it? Ship it to Arizona & New Mexico and let them use it to irrigate their crops.

[SoonerInKCMO]

But first you have to have a ****-load of hydrogen.

[tommieharris91]

I'm pretty down with all that except that the Marianas trench idea needs more work. We don't want a container of nuclear waste rupturing down there.

'Cause that leads to Godzilla.

But yeah, converting from coal and oil to nuclear (supplemented by wind and solar) power for primary electricity generation is something that needs to happen.

Something that tickles the back of my head when it comes to wind and solar power that I think may be getting ignored: TANSTAAFL. If we're generating power off of wind power, we're having an effect (if miniscule) on weather patterns. If we're generating power from solar energy, we're altering the Earth's albedo and increasing the amount of solar radiation that's captured in the atmosphere.

Just something to think about. Maybe someone's already thought about the possible unintended consequences.


I was thinking about this and I can one up you homey! Go to hydrogen fuel cells to produce the electricity for the cars. What is the by product of hydrogen fuel cells? Water! Instead of letting the water evaporate into the atmosphere, we keep it in a reserve tank in the car. When the car goes to get more hydrogen, the water is pumped out at the same time, and all of a sudden you have metric **** tons of water. This water would probably be deemed non potable though, so what do you do with it? Ship it to Arizona & New Mexico and let them use it to irrigate their crops.

Advanced thinking, you two. Then again, I'm pretty sure no one thought about Al Gore running around preaching doom & gloom when the Industrial Revolution was goin on.

[Sooner_Havok]

But first you have to have a ****-load of hydrogen.

Yes, and as it happens we have a near endless supply of hydrogen. Picture a map of the US. That blue **** to the left and right...lots of hydrogen.

Right now, chemical batteries are the suck. Covert that nuclear energy into hydrogen though, and you have something that can be transported easily and stored indefinitely. Hell, we could, in theory anyways, use preexisting natural gas pipelines to transport the crap across the country.

[Sooner_Havok]

Something that tickles the back of my head when it comes to wind and solar power that I think may be getting ignored: TANSTAAFL. If we're generating power off of wind power, we're having an effect (if miniscule) on weather patterns. If we're generating power from solar energy, we're altering the Earth's albedo and increasing the amount of solar radiation that's captured in the atmosphere.

Just something to think about. Maybe someone's already thought about the possible unintended consequences.


The wind power would affect migratory birds more than anything else. The turbines would affect local wind patterns, but no more than buildings have for centuries.

As for the earth's albedo, I would think it would increase sense solar cells are pretty shinny. That means that light never reaches the ground, and never gets a chance to heat up the ground. Sense it is light in the infrared that greenhouse gases capture, this reflected light would bounce back into space without ever raising the earth's temperature. Hell, enough of these things may lead to a cooling affect.

[def_lazer_fc]

not with that attitude we won't!

[Frozen Sooner]

The wind power would affect migratory birds more than anything else. The turbines would affect local wind patterns, but no more than buildings have for centuries.

As for the earth's albedo, I would think it would increase sense solar cells are pretty shinny. That means that light never reaches the ground, and never gets a chance to heat up the ground. Sense it is light in the infrared that greenhouse gases capture, this reflected light would bounce back into space without ever raising the earth's temperature. Hell, enough of these things may lead to a cooling affect.

Solar power cells are low albedo by definition, I would think, otherwise they wouldn't absorb energy-they'd simply reflect it.

[Sooner_Havok]

Solar power cells are low albedo by definition, I would think, otherwise they wouldn't absorb energy-they'd simply reflect it.

That is what I thought at first, but those things are shinny as hell. More so than dirt would be at least. But since the cells use photons from sunlight to knock electrons in the cells themselves into a higher state of energy to create electricity, much of the light would be reflected back after it collided with the electrons. Maybe. Maybe not. But I am pretty sure that solar cells would reflect more light back up than bare dirt or vegetation would.

[shaun4411]

When the car goes to get more hydrogen, the water is pumped out at the same time, and all of a sudden you have metric **** tons of water. This water would probably be deemed non potable though, so what do you do with it?

sell it to the saudis.

[yermom]

I was thinking about this and I can one up you homey! Go to hydrogen fuel cells to produce the electricity for the cars. What is the by product of hydrogen fuel cells? Water! Instead of letting the water evaporate into the atmosphere, we keep it in a reserve tank in the car. When the car goes to get more hydrogen, the water is pumped out at the same time, and all of a sudden you have metric **** tons of water. This water would probably be deemed non potable though, so what do you do with it? Ship it to Arizona & New Mexico and let them use it to irrigate their crops.

i'm thinking Hydrogen isn't the best battery. it's a touch reactive as well.

also it takes a LOT of Hydrgen to make a little water. i could do the math but i'm tired

[Vaevictis]

Yes, and as it happens we have a near endless supply of hydrogen. Picture a map of the US. That blue **** to the left and right...lots of hydrogen.

The problem isn't having a hydrogen source, the problem is extracting it. Hydrogen might be a decent way of storing energy, but I don't think that it's a solution to the problem of getting energy in the first place.

[yermom]

i can't wait for my Mr. Fusion

imagine what you can do with 1.21 jiggawatts

jigga who?