PDA

View Full Version : ok, law types, explain attorney-client privilege to me



yermom
4/13/2008, 01:00 PM
why do a couple of lawyers protect a known murderer and let a guy sit in prison for almost 30 years when they know he's innocent?

http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/413947


what is the point of allowing anything that a guy says to not be divulged? if you admit to your lawyer that you are guilty, shouldn't you just be put away at that point?

Okla-homey
4/13/2008, 01:50 PM
Okay, this is seriously "nutshell", but here goes:

Lawyers are not permitted to divulge client secrets unless the client consents. If it were any other way, 1) it would have a chilling effect on lawyers' ability to defend their clients because clients wouldn't be as forthcoming as they often need to be.
2) Nor would people go to lawyers to seek appropriate legal remedies if they thought any dirty deed they may have already committed could get found out through lawyer tattling.

Moreover, lawyers have to take those client secrets to the grave with them. The duty of confidentiality survives the period of representation. In fact, most legal ethicists maintain the secret must still be protected even after the former client dies. To do otherwise could have that same chilling effect on public confidence in lawyer-client confidentiality.

As an aside, the classic "Kobiashi Maru" scenario posed by legal professional responsibility profs goes like this:

Your client is accused of a crime he did not commit and you know one of your former clients actually committed the crime. Can you rat out your former client to get your current client off? Afterall, you have a duty to zealously defend your current client and to use all ethical means at your disposal to get him acquitted.

The answer is no.

There is an exception to the rule though. If you have reason to beleive your client is going to kill or cause serious bodily harm to someone, you are permitted (not required) to report it to authorities. Mind you, that is prospective in nature, NOT respective. Stuff he already did is not reportable. period.

yermom
4/13/2008, 02:01 PM
i get that part, i mean what good does it do?

i mean what good does it do to the public at large?

what is the point of a "fair trial" if you know he's guilty? what possible reason would a client tell his lawyer that he was guilty to help get him off?

i understand the law or the "ethics" but i don't understand it's purpose

Okla-homey
4/13/2008, 02:04 PM
i get that part, i mean what good does it do?

i mean what good does it do to the public at large?

what is the point of a "fair trial" if you know he's guilty? what possible reason would a client tell his lawyer that he was guilty to help get him off?

i understand the law or the "ethics" but i don't understand it's purpose

Because you need to be able to walk into a lawyers office and tell him your story without worrying that what you tell him could come back to haunt you. Do you get that part? If you don't, I give up.

See, we (as in society) need people to use the legal system versus taking the law into their own hands. That purpose is advanced by making attorney-client confidentiality iron-clad.

Also, if defendants feared what they told the lawyer would not be held in strict confidence, they could be disinclined to say anything to their lawyer. That would mean the lawyer would be less effective at trial. Thus, that confidentiality is more important to society than whether one poor guy sits in jail who didn't do it.

yermom
4/13/2008, 02:12 PM
why do i need that?

why would i tell my lawyer that i shot a bunch of people, or cheated on my taxes, or whatever?

olevetonahill
4/13/2008, 02:34 PM
I Agree with the A/C privilege thingy
Now Yermom Think about this a Tad ok
The dude that spent 26 years In Prison , Innocent Of what he was Charged with , Wasnt Innocent Of Other Shat that was Just as bad . He didnt get Convicted of them tho
:cool:
It do come down to JUSTICE

yermom
4/13/2008, 02:41 PM
did i miss that in the story? i didn't see anything about him committing other crimes, just that he kinda looked like the other dude

olevetonahill
4/13/2008, 02:44 PM
did i miss that in the story? i didn't see anything about him committing other crimes, just that he kinda looked like the other dude

No
I just sayin , Most Innocent Folk Aint !
Kinda Like friendly Fire .

StoopTroup
4/13/2008, 03:49 PM
why do i need that?

why would i tell my lawyer that i shot a bunch of people, or cheated on my taxes, or whatever?

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/facelift/lecter0103.jpg

Frozen Sooner
4/13/2008, 04:08 PM
why do i need that?

why would i tell my lawyer that i shot a bunch of people, or cheated on my taxes, or whatever?

It keeps your attorney from being surprised at trial by evidence of your wrongdoing, for one.

For example, if you tell your attorney "Nah, I didn't do it-I was at my sister's house the whole time" then your attorney may base part of your defense on the fact that you have an alibi. Should the prosecution brings evidence to trial that shows that you were, in fact, at the crime scene, it's going to tend to destroy your attorney's case which depended, in part, on your alibi.

Further, it allows your attorney the opportunity to defend against a more serious charge by presenting a theory of the crime which would lead to less serious charges (or none at all.)

Okla-homey
4/13/2008, 07:26 PM
why do i need that?

why would i tell my lawyer that i shot a bunch of people, or cheated on my taxes, or whatever?

I give up.

No, I'll try it this way.

When you go to the doctor, do you let him guess about what's wrong with you, or do you share with him where it hurts, how much and how you got your boo-boo?

Ike
4/13/2008, 08:34 PM
Unfortunately, civilization and governance are not advanced enough to come up with a system that works the way we believe it should every single time.


We've got a system that works as well as it does in large part because of the protection of attorney client priveledge. If that were gone, this particular guy might have gotten justice, and the innocent guy might never have gone to jail....but in that world, I think we would also find that on the whole, the ability of our justice system to do what it is supposed to do would be severely impaired.

Frozen Sooner
4/13/2008, 08:40 PM
Unfortunately, civilization and governance are not advanced enough to come up with a system that works the way we believe it should every single time.


We've got a system that works as well as it does in large part because of the protection of attorney client priveledge. If that were gone, this particular guy might have gotten justice, and the innocent guy might never have gone to jail....but in that world, I think we would also find that on the whole, the ability of our justice system to do what it is supposed to do would be severely impaired.

Dammit, Ike, get to work on mental probes!

Altered quoted with "fixed" coming in 3..2..

Jimminy Crimson
4/13/2008, 08:48 PM
I give up.

No, I'll try it this way.

When you go to the doctor, do you let him guess about what's wrong with you, or do you share with him where it hurts, how much and how you got your boo-boo?

Well, Doc, I was in the garden pulling carrots and happened to slip and fall... :eek:

TUSooner
4/13/2008, 09:48 PM
Homey and lawyers, tell if this is right.

You client says: "I did it."
You cannot snitch on your client,
BUT....
you also cannot present perjured testimony. Therefore, you cannot put your client on the stand to lie, and you cannot put on his mom's alibi testimony, which you know to be false. However, you can still defend the client effectively by challenging the admissibility of evidence or otherwise making the State prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. There are more sepcific rule abouyt how to dweal witha client who insists that you lie; in some cases you can or must withdraw from the representation before doing that.
yermom - I know that doesn't really address every issue, but you see the that privilege does have some "limits" - you need not, indeed CANNOT, become an accomplice to the crime. Lawyers have to walk the line. But it's true that the duty to the cleint often trumps "justice." As they say in France, "C'est la merde!"

yermom
4/13/2008, 09:48 PM
I give up.

No, I'll try it this way.

When you go to the doctor, do you let him guess about what's wrong with you, or do you share with him where it hurts, how much and how you got your boo-boo?

see, i read this as: ok, you see, i'm guilty, and here's how it did it. what loopholes can we find to get me out of this?

i mean, it's one thing if they searched without a warrant or something, i can see it

i understand the law, but you guys are being a bit vague here, give me an example or something

TUSooner
4/13/2008, 10:03 PM
see, i read this as: ok, you see, i'm guilty, and here's how it did it. what loopholes can we find to get me out of this?

i mean, it's one thing if they searched without a warrant or something, i can see it

i understand the law, but you guys are being a bit vague here, give me an example or something

You're asking for a heckuva lot of thought for 10PM on a Sunday night! :D

AlbqSooner
4/14/2008, 06:48 AM
Homey and lawyers, tell if this is right.

You client says: "I did it."
You cannot snitch on your client,
BUT....
you also cannot present perjured testimony. Therefore, you cannot put your client on the stand to lie, and you cannot put on his mom's alibi testimony, which you know to be false. However, you can still defend the client effectively by challenging the admissibility of evidence or otherwise making the State prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. There are more sepcific rule abouyt how to dweal witha client who insists that you lie; in some cases you can or must withdraw from the representation before doing that.
yermom - I know that doesn't really address every issue, but you see the that privilege does have some "limits" - you need not, indeed CANNOT, become an accomplice to the crime. Lawyers have to walk the line. But it's true that the duty to the cleint often trumps "justice." As they say in France, "C'est la merde!"

This is precisely why I never asked my client if he "did it". In order to present an effective defense, I did not need to know whether my client was not innocent. Rather, I needed to know what the State knows. When a jury says a defendant is "Not Guilty" it has little to do with innocence, or not. It is a statement that the State failed to meet the burden of proving my client's guilt beyond all reasonable doubt. (News media types usually say a defendant was found innocent, which is inaccurate. They do so out of fear that some typesetter will omit the "Not" and they will be faced with a defamation suit.)

If I know what evidence the State plans to present, I can prepare to meet that at trial. If, however, my client or my investigator has withheld from me certain facts, I get surprised in front of the jury and do not have the opportunity to investigate fully the evidence presented. That leaves me with little to do but break into a soft shoe routine.

If my client tells me he did what he is charged with, I can still defend the case, but I cannot put my client on the stand, knowing that he will lie under oath. That would be subornation of perjury.

I can assure you from my experience and the experience of watching other attorneys, that if you do NOT protect the confidences reposed in you by your client word will get out on the street and you will find yourself with a lot more time to post on SF.com. ;)

tbl
4/14/2008, 09:27 AM
I still think its wrong that this guy sat in prison for 26 years when there were at least 2 lawyers that KNEW he was innocent. That's not right, no matter which way you cut it. I also find it amazing that these two guys were in the pen together and the innocent guy actually knew the man that convicted the crime was in with him and spoke to him about it. I'm not an advocate of violence, but I can guarantee you that if I were the innocent guy and the guilty man was across the yard, he would admit it to authorities.

soonermix
4/14/2008, 10:07 AM
two words... Denny Crane

Turd_Ferguson
4/14/2008, 11:28 AM
two words... Denny CraneSpek:D

Taxman71
4/14/2008, 01:24 PM
Go go straight to the warden, tell him you know who did it and he will free the innocent man instantly......worked for Andy Dufresne after Tommy told the warden who killed his wife....err scratch that.

shaun4411
4/14/2008, 01:37 PM
-attorney client privelage-

client: i done keeled my dirty cheatin wife and i done keeled her lover too

attorney: dont worry , your secret is safe with me. my retainer is $15,000. will that be cash or check?

client: if you tell anyone ill keel you too.

attorney: dont worry, if i tell anyone about this, the bar will revoke my license to practice law, and you can sue me.