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View Full Version : Good Morning: Napolean makes US an offer it can't refuse



Okla-homey
4/10/2008, 11:55 PM
April 11, 1803: France offers Louisiana to America

205 years ago today, in one of the great surprises in diplomatic history, French Foreign Minister Charles Maurice de Talleyrand makes an offer to sell all of Louisiana Territory to the United States.

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Mo Talleyrand made the offer on behalf of his boss the Emperor.

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About seven months later, on October 10, 1803, the U.S. Senate ratified a treaty with France providing for the purchase of the territory of Louisiana, which would double the size of the United States.

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The gog land sale was the result of some interesting machinations by several European powers. At the end of 18th century, the Spanish technically owned Louisiana, the huge region west of the Mississippi that had once been claimed by France and named for its monarch, King Louis XIV.

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The territory includes Oklahoma which the French called Nouveau Mexique

Despite Spanish ownership, American settlers in search of new land were already threatening to overrun the territory by the early 19th century. Recognizing it could not effectively maintain control of the region, Spain ceded Louisiana back to France in 1801, sparking intense anxieties in Washington, D.C.

Under the leadership of Napoleon Bonaparte, France had become the most powerful nation in Europe, and unlike Spain, it had the military power and the ambition to establish a strong French presence in Louisiana and keep out the Americans.

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James Monroe. He and Robert Livingston negotiated the deal with Napolean's government

Realizing that it was essential that the U.S. at least maintain control of the mouth of the all-important Mississippi River, early in 1803 President Thomas Jefferson sent James Monroe to join the U.S. French foreign minister, Robert Livingston, in France to see if Napoleon might be persuaded to sell New Orleans and West Florida to the U.S.

Please understand, all these guys wanted to do was buy NOLA and the Florida Panhandle...little did they know they would end up acquiring the rights to much more!

By that spring, the European situation had changed radically. Napoleon, who had previously envisioned creating a mighty new French empire in America, was now facing war with Great Britain and he needed bucks to fund the fight.

Rather than risk the strong possibility that Great Britain would quickly capture Louisiana and leave France with nothing, Napoleon decided to raise money for his war and simultaneously deny his enemy the North American territory by having his boy Talleyrand offer to sell the entire territory to the U.S. for a mere $15 million on this day in 1803.

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Monroe, Livingston and Napolean's boy Talleyrand negotiate the deal

Flabbergasted, Monroe and Livingston decided that they couldn't pass up such a golden opportunity, and they wisely overstepped the powers delegated to them and accepted Napoleon's offer. IOW, the accepted the offer although technically, that authority had not been invested in them by their commissions to do more than buy NOLA and West Florida.

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Robert Livingston did most of the talking, because at the time, Monroe was plagued by severe back pain...it may have been a kidney stone.

Despite his misgivings about the constitutionality of the purchase (the Constitution made no provision for the addition of vast territory by treaty), Jefferson finally agreed to send the treaty to the U.S. Senate for ratification, noting privately, "The less we say about constitutional difficulties the better."

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Signature page of the treaty sent to the Senate for ratification. Note Monroe and Livingstone's signatures on the left side of the page (the French guy's sig. is on the right.) Also note, the red wax "seals" under the sigs. You've seen this in the movies. The signer poured a bit of hot "sealing wax" under his signature, then mashed his signet ring into the warm puddle of wax, thus "sealing it" to help lend veracity to the notion the signature was genuine. Thus, the phrase, "signed, sealed and delivered" when talking about an executed contract.

Despite his concerns, the treaty was ratified and the Louisiana Purchase now ranks as the greatest achievement of Jefferson's presidency.

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Tom Jefferson. He wrote the Declaration of Independence, but more importantly, bought Oklahoma from France.

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SoonerTerry
4/11/2008, 12:38 AM
Tom Jefferson. He wrote the Declaration of Independence, but more importantly, bought Oklahoma from France.

Damn thats beautifull..

TUSooner
4/11/2008, 01:41 AM
There's a few neighborhoods down here we ought to return for a refund.

soonervegas
4/11/2008, 12:46 PM
I am reading "Undaunted Courage" right now by Stephen Ambrose. It goes into this a little bit, although the premise of the book is the Lewis and Clark expedition. Thomas Jefferson was well ahead of his time.

stoopified
4/11/2008, 12:56 PM
Can we give Austin back to the Mexicans...Oh wait.

SicEmBaylor
4/11/2008, 12:59 PM
God knows I love Jefferson, but the purchase was clearly unconstitutional and the deal should never have been made -- at least not in the way it happened.

Scott D
4/11/2008, 01:22 PM
interesting that you love Jefferson, since he was an out and out liberal.

BigRedJed
4/11/2008, 01:29 PM
Cue SicEm pointing out how strongly Jefferson felt regarding states' rights. Other than that, don't confuse him with facts.

Widescreen
4/11/2008, 01:30 PM
I am reading "Undaunted Courage" right now by Stephen Ambrose. It goes into this a little bit, although the premise of the book is the Lewis and Clark expedition. Thomas Jefferson was well ahead of his time.

The bigger questions is, did he actually write the book? ;)

badger
4/11/2008, 01:33 PM
Can we give Austin back to the Mexicans...Oh wait.

I watched Karate Kid last night, which as we all know, is set in south California. I was making silent jokes about how that area was no longer a rich affluent white arcade/school/country club that they were in, but rather, north Mexico :D

soonervegas
4/11/2008, 01:36 PM
The bigger questions is, did he actually write the book? ;)

Touche.

Scott D
4/11/2008, 01:38 PM
Cue SicEm pointing out how strongly Jefferson felt regarding states' rights. Other than that, don't confuse him with facts.

not to mention that if he ever looked back he'd find that Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Adams, Mason, Henry, etc... did a great many things that would have been considered unconstitutional in building a government that the future generations have spent over two centuries corrupting further and further from it's values and purpose.

SoonerStormchaser
4/11/2008, 09:50 PM
Can we ask the French for a refund of NOLA???

olevetonahill
4/11/2008, 10:00 PM
Can we ask the French for a refund of NOLA???

No
Next question .

SoonerStormchaser
4/11/2008, 10:38 PM
How many hurricanes can Olevet drink before he's on the drunkytown express?

olevetonahill
4/11/2008, 10:42 PM
How many hurricanes can Olevet drink before he's on the drunkytown express?

See the Thread below this , You In or does Granny got ya cleaning yer Billet ?:D

SoonerStormchaser
4/12/2008, 07:18 AM
Actually, I'm out for a bit. I'm currently DNIF cause the flight doc has me taking all sorts of sleeping and anti-malarial pills (aka the "go/no-go" series) to make sure I can handle what they might give me on deployments. And all of em say don't take with booze! :mad:

85Sooner
4/12/2008, 10:38 AM
interesting that you love Jefferson, since he was an out and out liberal.

But as the post points out, it was france who really made the decision rather than forthought of a liberal which still seems relatively absent:)

SicEmBaylor
4/12/2008, 01:23 PM
Cue SicEm pointing out how strongly Jefferson felt regarding states' rights. Other than that, don't confuse him with facts.

I don't get confused by people who know what the hell they're talking about.

Trying to draw a direct line between Jefferson and modern liberalism is frankly absurd, stupid, and just as futile as it would be to find the descendants of the ancient Romans in modern Italy.

I have said time and time again that there is nothing wrong at all with liberalism. The problem with liberals is that they didn't know when to stop. At some point they muddled truly positive and enlightened progress with progress for the sake of progress.

SicEmBaylor
4/12/2008, 01:24 PM
Conceptually, I agree with Jefferson on everything from the size and nature of American government, the role of the citizen to the state, the role of the state to the citizen, and even religion.

badger
4/12/2008, 10:07 PM
Awww, Sic Em likes his nickel-headed presidents :D:D:D

Okla-homey
4/13/2008, 07:49 AM
Conceptually, I agree with Jefferson on everything from the size and nature of American government, the role of the citizen to the state, the role of the state to the citizen, and even religion.

So, you're a Deist?

Not a Christian? :eek:

Do your momma and daddy know? You know, the people who are financing the Peter Pan-esque "I'll Remain an Undergrad at and Expensive Private College Until They Disenroll Me or My Parents Run Out of Money" lifestyle you lead.

SicEmBaylor
4/13/2008, 10:54 AM
So, you're a Deist?

Not a Christian? :eek:

Do your momma and daddy know? You know, the people who are financing the Peter Pan-esque "I'll Remain an Undergrad at and Expensive Private College Until They Disenroll Me or My Parents Run Out of Money" lifestyle you lead.

My parents aren't religious and neither am I. My view of religion is very deistesque.

Okla-homey
4/13/2008, 11:29 AM
My parents aren't religious and neither am I. My view of religion is very deistesque.

Okay. Just don't let Captain Hook get you there in your Waco Neverland.;)

olevetonahill
4/13/2008, 11:33 AM
Okay. Just don't let Captain Hook get you there in your Bamer Neverland.;)

fixed
I think .