Good Morning...America whips a dreaded disease

[Okla-homey]

March 26, 1953: Salk announces polio vaccine

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On March 26, 1953, American medical researcher Dr. Jonas Salk announces on a national radio show that he has successfully tested a vaccine against poliomyelitis, the virus that causes the crippling disease of polio.

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In 1952--an epidemic year for polio--there were 58,000 new cases reported in the United States, and more than 3,000 died from the disease. For promising eventually to eradicate the disease, which is known as "infant paralysis" because it mainly affects children, Dr. Salk was celebrated as the great doctor-benefactor of his time.

Polio, a disease that has affected humanity throughout recorded history, attacks the nervous system and can cause varying degrees of paralysis. Since the virus is easily transmitted, epidemics were commonplace in the first decades of the 20th century.

The first major polio epidemic in the United States occurred in Vermont in the summer of 1894, and by the 20th century thousands were affected every year. In the first decades of the 20th century, treatments were limited to quarantines and the infamous "iron lung," a metal coffin-like contraption that aided respiration.

Although children, and especially babies, were among the worst affected, adults were also often afflicted, including future president Franklin D. Roosevelt, who in 1921 was stricken with polio at the age of 39 and was left partially paralyzed.

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Roosevelt later transformed his estate in Warm Springs, Georgia, into a recovery retreat for polio victims and was instrumental in raising funds for polio-related research and the treatment of polio patients.

Salk, born in New York City in 1914, first conducted research on viruses in the 1930s when he was a medical student at New York University, and during World War II helped develop flu vaccines.

In 1947, he became head of a research laboratory at the University of Pittsburgh and in 1948 was awarded a grant to study the polio virus and develop a possible vaccine. By 1950, he had an early version of his polio vaccine. Most of Salk's work was funded by the March of Dimes, a great charity founded to support research to eradicate polio.

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Salk's procedure, first attempted unsuccessfully by American Maurice Brodie in the 1930s, was to kill several strains of the virus and then inject the benign viruses into a healthy person's bloodstream. The person's immune system would then create antibodies designed to resist future exposure to poliomyelitis.

Salk conducted the first human trials on former polio patients and on himself and his family, and by 1953 was ready to announce his findings. This occurred on the CBS national radio network on the evening of March 25 and two days later in an article published in the Journal of the American Medical Association. Dr. Salk became an immediate celebrity.

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In 1954, clinical trials using the Salk vaccine and a placebo began on nearly two million American schoolchildren. In April 1955, it was announced that the vaccine was effective and safe, and a nationwide inoculation campaign began.

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Dr. Jonas Salk, (Left), received a Gold Medal from a grateful nation and praise from President Eisenhower January 27th 1956, for his "great achievement" in developing a vaccine against polio. Health, Education, and Welfare Secretary Marion Folsom (Right), presents the medal as Rep. Irwin D. Davidson (D-N.Y), (Center), holds the resolution authorizing the medal, which Rep. Davidson introduced and which Congress passed.

New polio cases dropped to under 6,000 in 1957, the first year after the vaccine was widely available. In 1962, an oral vaccine developed by Polish-American researcher Albert Sabin became available, greatly facilitating distribution of the polio vaccine. Today, there are just a handful of polio cases in the United States every year, and most of these are "imported" by Americans from developing nations where polio is still a problem.

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In this staged photograph a nurse shows a newspaper with a headline about the polio vaccine to a man using a chest respirator. Of course, the vaccine came too late for this patient but this image captures the intensity of the relief that people felt when an effective vaccine was found.

Among other honors, Jonas Salk was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1977. He died in La Jolla, California, in 1995.

And what of the March of Dimes? It still exists and with polio virtually eradicated, now focuses on ending the scourge of premature birth. The MoD's biggest event of the year is coming up on Saturday, April 26 and you can help this proven winner of a charity by signing up for a "Walk for Babies" in your area. Your correspondent is proud to state he serves on the Board of the Eastern Oklahoma March of Dimes and appreciates your support for this great cause.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjeBZlOjQa0

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Postscript: In tribute to the memory of Dr. Salk, please don't let parents you know buy into the unsubstantiated notion that childhood immunizations are somehow dangerous. What's dangerous is NOT immunizing children. sheesh.

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[Widescreen]

That was a good one, Homey. I didn't really know any of the details surrounding Dr. Salk's work.

http://aycu28.webshots.com/image/49667/2005602719185646509_rs.jpg
OK, this was obviously in the era before sensitivity was discovered. Can you imagine some dude lying on the bed in a hospice wracked with terminal cancer and a nurse holds up a paper saying "Cancer cured! Hooray!". Ugh.

[OUDoc]

Postscript: In tribute to the memory of Dr. Salk, please don't let parents you know buy into the unsubstantiated notion that childhood immunizations are somehow dangerous. What's dangerous is NOT immunizing children. sheesh.


Ditto.

[yermom]

nevermind the fact that they used MERCURY in some vaccines as a preservative.

vaccines in general may be safe, but just because they've been doing something for years doesn't mean that they shouldn't update it in light of evidence that it could be harmful.

the government admitted there could be a problem for some reason...

[TUSooner]

Nice, Homey.
My dad had polio when he was a teenager (in the late 1940s, I think). His right leg is slimmer and very slightly shorter than his left. He was treated with good result by the "Sister Kenny method" devised by an Australian nurse (who was not a nun). Polio didn't stop him from lettering in football at Putnam City or serving as an MD in the Navy and Air Force, or from being in better shape at age 75 than 89.72% of posters on this board, including me.

[OUDoc]

nevermind the fact that they used MERCURY in some vaccines as a preservative.

vaccines in general may be safe, but just because they've been doing something for years doesn't mean that they shouldn't update it in light of evidence that it could be harmful.

the government admitted there could be a problem for some reason...

Get your children vaccinated, people.

[Okla-homey]

A few vaccines used a form of MERCURY as a preservative but none now do. The use of the compound was discontinued as a precaution notwithstanding the fact there is no objective medical evidence its use in microscopic amounts ever harmed anyone.

The most prominent anti-childhood immunization advocate in the US today is Jenny McCarthy, a high school drop-out and former Playboy Bunny. Who are you going to believe? OUr own OUDoc, or a ditzy, washed-up "actress" who got paid for baring her chestal region in a mens magazine?

vaccines are safe, prevent horrid diseases, and no recognized medical authority in the world says otherwise.



fixed it.:D

[OUDoc]

I do believe the flu shot still has thimerosal, for some stupid reason. To my knowledge, it's out of the rest, at least the children's vaccines.

[yermom]

fixed it.:D

i never said that you shouldn't immunize children or that they still used Mercury, but if people didn't raise a stink they'd still probably be using it

also there is this:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/03/05/autism.vaccines.ap/

even if they are not causing Autism, it appears that they can aggravate certain disorders, and some testing should be done before kids are given some mandated innoculation

[olevetonahill]

I remember Having to Take those shots as a Kid
That sugar cube was the shiznit

[achiro]

Nevermind the well known and well docummented vaccine CAUSED polio (VAPP). It's funny how many facts can be ignored by you Homey in the discussion of vaccines. You act as if parents that choose not to vaccinate are uneducated and stupid when in fact it is just the opposite. Most that choose not to vaccinate are in the upper ends of education and financial status(including many MD's). Very few would make the decision based on one or two opinions, they research it thoroughly and you might be surprised how many of them could teach you a thing or two. To make any claims that vaccines are completely safe and that there are no side effects is just sticking your head in the sand. It's an old schtick(sp?) with you and I am tired of debating it but I tell you what, I will give you a couple of websites and you can browse until the cows come home and I'm sure they would welcome your emails and debate you as much as you want. ;)

http://www.vacinfo.org/default.asp (very anti vaccine oriented)
http://www.909shot.com/ (more of a pick and choose type site)


There are also a lot of folks that don't believe that polio has been eliminated at all, just changed. Here is an interesting article from an MD talking about the similarities of Chronic Fatigue and Polio
http://www.whale.to/w/douglas.html

I will state this again, I would never tell someone whether to vaccinate their children or not but I do believe that there is more to the decision than just doing it or not doing it because someone says so. Educate yourself, there is crap research on both side of the aisle BTW.

[Okla-homey]

Nevermind the well known and well docummented vaccine CAUSED polio (VAPP). It's funny how many facts can be ignored by you Homey in the discussion of vaccines. You act as if parents that choose not to vaccinate are uneducated and stupid when in fact it is just the opposite. Most that choose not to vaccinate are in the upper ends of education and financial status(including many MD's). Very few would make the decision based on one or two opinions, they research it thoroughly and you might be surprised how many of them could teach you a thing or two. To make any claims that vaccines are completely safe and that there are no side effects is just sticking your head in the sand. It's an old schtick(sp?) with you and I am tired of debating it but I tell you what, I will give you a couple of websites and you can browse until the cows come home and I'm sure they would welcome your emails and debate you as much as you want. ;)

http://www.vacinfo.org/default.asp (very anti vaccine oriented)
http://www.909shot.com/ (more of a pick and choose type site)


There are also a lot of folks that don't believe that polio has been eliminated at all, just changed. Here is an interesting article from an MD talking about the similarities of Chronic Fatigue and Polio
http://www.whale.to/w/douglas.html

I will state this again, I would never tell someone whether to vaccinate their children or not but I do believe that there is more to the decision than just doing it or not doing it because someone says so. Educate yourself, there is crap research on both side of the aisle BTW.

It's not because "someone says so." It's because the medical data are conclusive and again, there is simply no objective medical evidence that childhood vaccines are harmful. Put another way, any purported risk is far outweighted by the benefits of childhood immunizations. I would welcome any citation to a legitimate, peer reviewed medical publication (AMA, NIH, WHO, CDC, etc.) that holds otherwise.

Moreover, I have not done a comprehensive literature search, but I don't believe there is any evidence vaccines proximately caused conditions that otherwise did not already exist in the patient. Finally, just my opinion mind you, but any professional medical provider who advises it is safer to leave a healthy child unimmunized versus immunizing them is in serious breach of his/her duty of care to that patient. Repeating, just my opinion, but I would not want to be in the shoes of some physician who advised against shots if that patient subsequently came down with mumps, measles, etc. (all preventable by immunization) and suffered permanant harm as a result.

Oh, and BTW, have you looked at the websites you posted. The first one is Jenny McCarthy's group, the second one is put up by lawyers seeking plaintiffs, and the third one is some M.D. who also contends the World Health Organization intentionally spread AIDS in Africa.

[StoopTroup]

Iron Lungs were such the rage back then...

[OUDoc]

Put another way, any purported risk is far outweighted by the benefits of childhood immunizations. I would welcome any citation to a legitimate, peer reviewed medical publication (AMA, NIH, WHO, CDC, etc.) that holds otherwise.

Finally, just my opinion mind you, but any professional medical provider who advises it is safer to leave a healthy child unimmunized versus immunizing them is in serious breach of his/her duty of care to that patient.

I can't agree enough with both of these statements.

[birddog]

that nurse is mean, teasing a man like that.

[Widescreen]

Polio didn't stop him from lettering in football at Putnam City or serving as an MD in the Navy and Air Force, or from being in better shape at age 75 than 89.72% of posters on this board, including me.
But I mean, who couldn't letter at PC? :D

j/k

That's cool that he didn't let it stop him

[M]

Dr. Salk's name also graces one of Tulsa's elementary schools...

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g258/DixieChickMissy/Salk.jpg

[achiro]

It's not because "someone says so." It's because the medical data are conclusive and again, there is simply no objective medical evidence that childhood vaccines are harmful. Put another way, any purported risk is far outweighted by the benefits of childhood immunizations. I would welcome any citation to a legitimate, peer reviewed medical publication (AMA, NIH, WHO, CDC, etc.) that holds otherwise. The sad truth of this argument is the most(actually almost all) research is paid for by pharma companies. Nobody wants to really get into hard research involving the destruction of thier wallet so you have to start thinking critically. You know, things like giving a newborn a vaccine for a bloodborn/sexually transmitted disease. What? then the really cool thing is that the vaccine wears off in less than 7 years. So we're covered for the sexually active 6 year old COOL! BUT there is some evidence to a relationship of MS with this vaccine. Yeah the benefits outweigh the risk...
What about pertussis(whooping cough) oh yeah, it's pretty nasty I suppose but I like the comparative studies that show the numbers of children with it were both vaccinated and unvaccinated in equal numbers, in other words it didn't matter if the child was vaccinatated, they had the same chance of catching it. Benefits outweighing risk? I don't know, let me know after you read the published study from UCLA that said 1 in 800 something children vaccinated had convulsion or collapse within 48 hours. Hmmm we don't get to hear about this stuff but by GAWD if you want to keep drinking the kool-aid and not ask questions, you go right ahead.
What about the newest, the chicken pox vaccine that nobody seems to know the longevity of? In other words if its 20 years, it's gonna be scary in 20years when all these adults end up with CP because as you know it ain't fun for an adult. Ayway, what I am saying is there is a lot of info out there, legitimate and from respectable sources, you just have to want to educate yourself to it. AND as I said before, critical thinking is a good thing from both directions.


Moreover, I have not done a comprehensive literature search, but I don't believe there is any evidence vaccines proximately caused conditions that otherwise did not already exist in the patient. I just gave you one, VAPP, or did all those folks have Polio before they were vaccinated?


Finally, just my opinion mind you, but any professional medical provider who advises it is safer to leave a healthy child unimmunized versus immunizing them is in serious breach of his/her duty of care to that patient. Repeating, just my opinion, but I would not want to be in the shoes of some physician who advised against shots if that patient subsequently came down with mumps, measles, etc. (all preventable by immunization) and suffered permanant harm as a result.
I actually agree with you on this but on the other side, I also believe it is a breach of his/her duty to not inform the patient of possible side effects of vaccines. Of course, I don't know many that wil actually do any research on the subject, most don't have time I guess.


Oh, and BTW, have you looked at the websites you posted. The first one is Jenny McCarthy's group, the second one is put up by lawyers seeking plaintiffs, and the third one is some M.D. who also contends the World Health Organization intentionally spread AIDS in Africa.

So are you saying Jenny M started that group because I don't think she did.
The second was not started by lawyers at all and is packed with some really good info if you actually take the time to poke around.
As far as the docs article, all I said was that it was interesting and I stand by that.

[olevetonahill]

Achiro , I just a dumb ****ing hillbillie
But I gots a ? IF as you say MDs refuse to Vac their Children Because its so Bad fer em . Then arnt they Going against thier Med Ethics By Vac, any children ?
I think In this Case Ill listen to a REAL Doc .:cool:

[OUDoc]

achiro, I really didn't read all that yet, but I probably will later. Your basis of argument seems to be that >90% of the medical establishment is greedy/incompetent/immoral, correct? All who oppose this force are the good guys, no matter how little generally accepted information supports this, because the researchers are immoral after all.
There's being critical, and then there's being oppositional.

[achiro]

achiro, I really didn't read all that yet, but I probably will later. Your basis of argument seems to be that >90% of the medical establishment is greedy/incompetent/immoral, correct? All who oppose this force are the good guys, no matter how little generally accepted information supports this, because the researchers are immoral after all.
There's being critical, and then there's being oppositional.Wow, now I know people like that but I'm not sure where you got that from me?

[achiro]

Achiro , I just a dumb ****ing hillbillie
But I gots a ? IF as you say MDs refuse to Vac their Children Because its so Bad fer em . Then arnt they Going against thier Med Ethics By Vac, any children ?
I think In this Case Ill listen to a REAL Doc .:cool:
The MD's that I personally know that don't vaccinate their own kids, don't vaccinate any kids, don't give flu shots, and tell their patients the good, bad, and ugly of why they made those decisions. They also tell their patients that is up the them if they choose to vaccinate, just that they won't do it in their offices.

[olevetonahill]

Growing up I was Vac. . Befor I got sent to play in the Jungle I Vac agains hell I think even a snake bite .
I get a Flu shot, I Take that Pmonia shot when ever they tell me its time .
I swear Ive been a sick bastage all My life .
Had to have My appedix out when I was 10 .
other than a few holes In my Carcase . Ive nevar been very sick
well that Molaria bout kick my *** , But O got over that to .

[12]

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j200/zebthethird/fail-polio.jpg

[OUDoc]

Wow, now I know people like that but I'm not sure where you got that from me?

It just seems you are adamantly against anything mainstream medicine proposes. If I have misrepresented you, I apologize. I'm not against alternative medicine and I don't blindly follow mainstream medicine. In the case against vaccines, I feel there is substantially more information supporting vaccines than against vaccines. By a HUGE margin. As you know, I have a son with Autism. There is still NO scientific evidence that immunizations cause Autism. If evidence does come to light, I'll re-think my position. The same for other vaccines. The good so far outweighs the bad, IMO. (I'll grant you the Hep B vaccine in neonates, if it loses potency like most vaccines do with time, may be questionable.)

[achiro]

It just seems you are adamantly against anything mainstream medicine proposes. If I have misrepresented you, I apologize. I'm not against alternative medicine and I don't blindly follow mainstream medicine. In the case against vaccines, I feel there is substantially more information supporting vaccines than against vaccines. By a HUGE margin. As you know, I have a son with Autism. There is still NO scientific evidence that immunizations cause Autism. If evidence does come to light, I'll re-think my position. The same for other vaccines. The good so far outweighs the bad, IMO. (I'll grant you the Hep B vaccine in neonates, if it loses potency like most vaccines do with time, may be questionable.)

I get hammered pretty regularly on this forum and take most of it in stride. When I read something that I know isn't competely true, I am going to offer some other information. If someone says something about my profession that I know to be wrong , I am going to come back with correct information. I always back it up with research and most of the time still get hammered. I've yet to see anyone slamming chiropractic use any basis of fact and they sure don't use any sort of research to defend thier positions but anyway. Do I know it will stir a debate when I bring this type of information, yes most of the time I do. It's good though because if I can get one person to look at something a bit differently then I think that is a good thing. I understand that it really does take a paradigm shift in ones thinking sometimes to start thinking that maybe "medicine" doesn't have all the answers. I recently needed to have my gallbladder removed. I did not see an alternative practicioner for that. Medicine has it's place, it's just not working as well as most people think it is.

Did you know that the US ranks near the bottom for infant survival rates among modernized nations? Only Latvia ranked lower(where the hell is that anyway? ;) )

From the WHO in 2000: "The U.S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance" 37th! OMG!!!!(and it's worse now, we are in the 40's somewhere but I couldn't find that article)

As far as your comment of me not thinking critically but "oppositional" when I say something about the money coming from the pharma companies to do research ,there are tons of reasons why I feel this way. Check this out when you are really bored:
http://www.909shot.com/COFRpt.htm
Now tell me that it's ok for the one approving a vaccine and its safety to have financial gain in doing so...it's not ok.

Now back to vaccines:
IN 1982 peds were giving 23 doses of 7 vaccines, now 56 doses of 16 vaccines. In that same time we've seen an increase(double) in chronic brain and immune system dysfunction, 1 in 450 develops diabetes, 1 in 150 autism, 1 in 9 asthma, 1 in 6 is learning disabled. For the first time in recent history our childrens life expectancy is lower than ours. Something is broken, and it ain't just video games. Is it all vaccines? I doubt it, but I won't ignore it.

I think it is good to ask questions, if we ever stop we have a huge problem.

[Okla-homey]

If tiny amounts of mercury (formerly used as a preservative in certain vaccines in microscopic amounts) caused autism, then I and several million other Americans would be some autistic mofo's.

Here's why. By the time I was twelve, I had several fillings in my teeth, some of which I got as early as kindergarten. Back during the late Paleozoic Era when I was a kid, tooth fillings were made of amalgams that were composed of base metals and....<GASP!>MERCURY!:eek:

That's right, by the time I was 12 or so, I was blithely pedaling around on my Huffy bike from OTASCO with several mg of MERCURY in my mouth. In fact, some of those fillings from the 1960's in my adult teeth are STILL IN THERE! MERCURY PEOPLE!!!

What's more, quite literally at least another 100 million or so Americans as old as me ALL HAVE MERCURY IN OUR MOUTHS!!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

Alternative medicine, schmalternitive smedicine. Just the medical equivalent of tin foil hat wearers IMHO. Roots and herbs, crystals and magnets, smoke and mirrors. Pfffft.

We left off stone scalpels, leeches and wizardry for good reason.

You wanna know why our kids aren't as healthy as we were? Because they have a flippin' Xbox wire up their keister and they don't get off the couch and work up a sweat every single day of their lives like we did. That, and the fact we have lables and diagnoses for stuff we always had with us, but we formerly chalked it up to, well, "he's just slow," or, "he's wild," or even the dreaded "R" word.

[olevetonahill]

I aint saying any ones bad
I just lIke stirring the Pot so everyone Knows their **** realy does Stink :pop:

[achiro]

If tiny amounts of mercury (formerly used as a preservative in certain vaccines in microscopic amounts) caused autism, then I and several million other Americans would be some autistic mofo's.

Here's why. By the time I was twelve, I had several fillings in my teeth, some of which I got as early as kindergarten. Back during the late Paleozoic Era when I was a kid, tooth fillings were made of amalgams that were composed of base metals and....<GASP!>MERCURY!:eek:

Unless you were under two, your argument has little merit.
Also, go see about having those mercury fillings removed now. ;)

[yermom]

If tiny amounts of mercury (formerly used as a preservative in certain vaccines in microscopic amounts) caused autism, then I and several million other Americans would be some autistic mofo's.

Here's why. By the time I was twelve, I had several fillings in my teeth, some of which I got as early as kindergarten. Back during the late Paleozoic Era when I was a kid, tooth fillings were made of amalgams that were composed of base metals and....<GASP!>MERCURY!:eek:

That's right, by the time I was 12 or so, I was blithely pedaling around on my Huffy bike from OTASCO with several mg of MERCURY in my mouth. In fact, some of those fillings from the 1960's in my adult teeth are STILL IN THERE! MERCURY PEOPLE!!!

What's more, quite literally at least another 100 million or so Americans as old as me ALL HAVE MERCURY IN OUR MOUTHS!!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

Alternative medicine, schmalternitive smedicine. Just the medical equivalent of tin foil hat wearers IMHO. Roots and herbs, crystals and magnets, smoke and mirrors. Pfffft.

We left off stone scalpels, leeches and wizardry for good reason.

You wanna know why our kids aren't as healthy as we were? Because they have a flippin' Xbox wire up their keister and they don't get off the couch and work up a sweat every single day of their lives like we did. That, and the fact we have lables and diagnoses for stuff we always had with us, but we formerly chalked it up to, well, "he's just slow," or, "he's wild," or even the dreaded "R" word.

what exactly do you think a chiropractor does? :confused:

to some extent, you are right about the XBox thing, but i think chemicals like plasticisers and hormones from livestock aren't really helping either. but like achiro said, you weren't 18 mos old getting fillings either

[12]

Western Auto>Otasco ANY FRAKING DAY!! ;) (old man, small town variety store smack)

I saw my own Western Auto last week. Looked like she was still open.

God bless 'er.

[OUDoc]

Did you know that the US ranks near the bottom for infant survival rates among modernized nations? Only Latvia ranked lower(where the hell is that anyway? ;) )
For total health care, I think Latvia ranks higher than us. I haven't seen that for infant mortality though.




From the WHO in 2000: "The U.S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance" 37th! OMG!!!!(and it's worse now, we are in the 40's somewhere but I couldn't find that article)

The US also funds most of the drug research, thus, more dollars spent. How many new drugs did Latvia come up with last year? What does Latvia actually contribute anyway?
We have morbidly obese poor. How many countries manage to feed their poor so much crap that they gain weight to the point of dealing with all the co-morbid conditions obesity brings? Not many, I'd bet. We're a nation of excess, that doesn't all have to do with poor health care.
Do you have any non-compliant morbidly obese patients? If you do, aren't you contributing to the problem just like the rest of us?



As far as your comment of me not thinking critically but "oppositional" when I say something about the money coming from the pharma companies to do research ,there are tons of reasons why I feel this way. Check this out when you are really bored:
http://www.909shot.com/COFRpt.htm
Now tell me that it's ok for the one approving a vaccine and its safety to have financial gain in doing so...it's not ok.

That link goes to a group started by parents of children who had bad outcomes/died from vaccinations. I'm sure they are impartial.


Now back to vaccines:
IN 1982 peds were giving 23 doses of 7 vaccines, now 56 doses of 16 vaccines. In that same time we've seen an increase(double) in chronic brain and immune system dysfunction, 1 in 450 develops diabetes, 1 in 150 autism, 1 in 9 asthma, 1 in 6 is learning disabled. For the first time in recent history our childrens life expectancy is lower than ours. Something is broken, and it ain't just video games. Is it all vaccines? I doubt it, but I won't ignore it.

So why focus on vaccines when, I repeat, there is no scientific evidence of those above mentioned problems stemming from vaccinations. Hell, since the fall of communism those rates have dramatically risen. Why don't we blame that? It MAY be vaccines, but why isn't there evidence that is accepted by reputable medical research groups? Is "pharma" buying them too?


I think it is good to ask questions, if we ever stop we have a huge problem.
Absolutely. I agree and I don't think the big pharmaceutical companies are princes. In fact, they are greedy, profit-driven companies. They also happen to produce some good medicines as well. They occasionally produce crap and sometimes manage to invent conditions that fit their drugs profile. But critical thinking doesn't always mean throwing pharmaceutical companies under the bus just because it's popular.

[yermom]

That link goes to a group started by parents of children who had bad outcomes/died from vaccinations. I'm sure they are impartial.


while they may not be impartial, shouldn't something be done to prevent a group like that from needing to exist?

[achiro]

That link goes to a group started by parents of children who had bad outcomes/died from vaccinations. I'm sure they are impartial.
That link does go the 909shot site but the link is a copy of minutes from a house of rep meeting. That was the reason I posted it. If you take the time to read it, well at least for me, it should really concern you who is actually approving this stuff for the market.


So why focus on vaccines when, I repeat, there is no scientific evidence of those above mentioned problems stemming from vaccinations.
First of all, I've given you one on DPT already. The research is there you just have to actually look for it. THat 909shot site is actually pretty good and I would be surprised if you can find anything on there that isn't backed by fact. Fischer, the founder, works very hard at what she does and I am sure it would be bad for her "cause" if she were challenged and proven wrong or worse, something based on lies.
Why is there not a lot more research pn the side effects and effacacy of vacinations? well that brings us full circle to what I was saying before, there is nobody out there financing it.

[OUDoc]

That link does go the 909shot site but the link is a copy of minutes from a house of rep meeting. That was the reason I posted it. If you take the time to read it, well at least for me, it should really concern you who is actually approving this stuff for the market.


First of all, I've given you one on DPT already. The research is there you just have to actually look for it. THat 909shot site is actually pretty good and I would be surprised if you can find anything on there that isn't backed by fact. Fischer, the founder, works very hard at what she does and I am sure it would be bad for her "cause" if she were challenged and proven wrong or worse, something based on lies.
Why is there not a lot more research pn the side effects and effacacy of vacinations? well that brings us full circle to what I was saying before, there is nobody out there financing it.

Whatever, achiro. Just remember to name your kid Typhoid Mary.

[Okla-homey]

while they may not be impartial, shouldn't something be done to prevent a group like that from needing to exist?

Groups exist who maintain the moon landings of the 1960's and 70's were hoaxes. Just because a ship of fools chooses to embark doesn't mean others should sign the book and become crewmembers.

[yermom]

it's not like they are people with sick kids from fake moon landings though

if 100 out of 100,000 kids has problems, is there not some validity in maybe trying to get that number decreased?

[Okla-homey]

it's not like they are people with sick kids from fake moon landings though

if 100 out of 100,000 kids has problems, is there not some validity in maybe trying to get that number decreased?

People are hard-wired to blame bad stuff on something. That's the way we're made. We are also hard-wired to defend our kids. Some folks have decided to hang their hat on immunizations as he cause of their child's affliction(s). Might as well have chosen the phase of the moon their children were born. That makes about as much sense.

I don't doubt some kids have problems. Just don't blame it on shots unless and until their is factual, scientific, objective, etc. evidence supporting such an assertion. In the interim PLEASE, SHUT YOUR PIEHOLE ABOUT DISCOURAGING CHILDHOOD SHOTS you bunch of loonies. This means YOU Miss Jenny McCarthy.

[yermom]

you mean like people getting Polio from the Polio vaccine?

it's technology, it's science. new discoveries are made. it's not like the drug companies are going to pay for this research if they don't have to though

[Okla-homey]

you mean like people getting Polio from the Polio vaccine?

it's technology, it's science. new discoveries are made. it's not like the drug companies are going to pay for this research if they don't have to though

#1 Even if a few people "got polio" from the vaccines, and I'm not conceding the point, how many millions who otherwise would have acquired the horrible disease remained healthy and polio-free because of the vaccine?

#2 Pharmaceutical companies are "for profit" corporations. They exist to make profits for their shareholders. There's nothing wrong with that. Some people find that icky, but, nevertheless, its the basis of our economy in the US. If the pharma marketplace, or those agencies that regulate it, find that an otherwise popular product bears risks that outweigh the benefits, the marketplace or the agencies that regulate it will kill it because such products are bad for the business. In fact, because of the specter of product liability litigation, many drugs get pulled from the shelves based simply on a mere hint of evidence there might be a problem -- like the preservative compound formerly in childhood vaccines that contained minute amounts of mercury.

I ask you this, if medical science developed an HIV/AIDS vaccine that was 100% effective, but, around .05% of folks who took the vaccine would acquire some non-fatal condition or experience a nasty side-effect (hair falls out, or vision impairment, or maybe partial deafness) would it be prudent for persons who otherwise engage in risky behaviors (e.g. IV drug users, prostitutes, health care workers, homos, etc.) not to take the vaccine?

[yermom]

#1 Even if a few people "got polio" from the vaccines, and I'm not conceding the point, how many millions who otherwise would have acquired the horrible disease remained healthy and polio-free because of the vaccine?

here is the CDC talking about VAPP (vaccine associated paralytic polio)

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/polio/faqs-nipinfo-polio.htm#opvvapp

it's not common, but it does happen



I ask you this, if medical science developed an HIV/AIDS vaccine that was 100% effective, but, around .05% of folks who took the vaccine would acquire some non-fatal condition or experience a nasty side-effect (hair falls out, or vision impairment, or maybe partial deafness) would it be prudent for persons who otherwise engage in risky behaviors (e.g. IV drug users, prostitutes, health care workers, homos, etc.) not to take the vaccine?

and what about those .05%? you think they are going to just be happy that they are deaf or whatever? do you not think that they should work on decreasing that number?

i never said it was "icky" for drug companies to make money. although, some of their practices do seem pretty "icky"


i have never said that kids shouldn't be immunized in this whole thing, just that there have been problems, and improvements could be made. it's like the vaccine cocktail is some sacred cow that can't be even hinted at changing

this rant sounds remarkably like the second hand smoke rant...

[Okla-homey]

this rant sounds remarkably like the second hand smoke rant...

perhaps because the bald, unsubstantiated assertion "THERE IS NO SAFE LEVEL OF EXPOSURE TO SECOND-HAND SMOKE!" by anti-smoke folks who loudly and righteously proclaim it is equally specious and worthy of derision by rational people.:texan:

Remember those loonies who were abso-tutely convinced living under high-tension powerlines was affecting their health? You don't hear much from them anymore because that whole decade-long debate finally had a stake driven through its heart by overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary. Turns out, what was affecting their health was the fact they lived in a economically disadvantaged area (which happens to be the sort of property that has high-tension lines running directly overhead houses and tenements) and as a result, they didn't practice healthy lifestyles. The lines themselves had no effect.

This vaccine peccadillo too shall pass.

[OKC-SLC]

I just saw this thread today, and before I clicked it I wondered how long it would take for the controversy of vaccines to be brought up. I was not disappointed.

I have nothing to add to what OUDoc (and Homey) have said. There is zero legitimate objective scientific data which demonstrates that the benefit of vaccines doesn't outweigh what risks they may present.

Achiro, I tire of the 'USA's infant mortality' argument. OUDoc touched on this as well. The US produces over 80% of major pharmaceutical developments, and while there is no doubting the role of the pharma companies, like Doc said--they put out some very good drugs. If there's no capitalistic reason for a company to develop a drug, we'll put out as many drugs as Latvia.

My son just turned 2 months old Thursday, and he got shots. My two year old got shots. I'm thrilled that they won't get diptheria, pertussis, HAV, HBV, H. influenza, polio, et al. And if one of my children is one of the 1 in 160-something who is diagnosed with autism, I won't give the immunizations a second thought.

[OKC-SLC]

About the infant mortality in the US--low rates of prenatal care and poor decision making by those with minimal resources (and often more comorbidity) are the major factors driving the infant mortality up in the US. Although we don't have a 'universal health care system', these people have the option to seek appropriate care at the expense of the taxpayer and the insured nonetheless. Hospitals, communities, and clinics provide necessary services to this faction; this faction often chooses not to take advantage of these resources.

[Okla-homey]

About the infant mortality in the US--low rates of prenatal care and poor decision making by those with minimal resources (and often more comorbidity) are the major factors driving the infant mortality up in the US. Although we don't have a 'universal health care system', these people have the option to seek appropriate care at the expense of the taxpayer and the insured nonetheless. Hospitals, communities, and clinics provide necessary services to this faction; this faction often chooses not to take advantage of these resources.

Moreover, because far too many of these moms eschew pre-natal care and make poor choices while pregnant, the "system" (that means all of us) is burdened with sick neonates who end up costing us billions each year.

I'm basically a libertarian on most things, but I draw the line on crap people do, or choose not to do, that results in harm to babies and/or sucks money out of my pocket in the form of taxes.

That said, I would even go so far as to say, "look, you wanna be a morbidly obese tub of goo?" Rock on! But don't expect medicaid or some other taxpayer financed healthcare scheme to bankroll your lifestyle. Ditto smokers.

[Okla-homey]

what exactly do you think a chiropractor does? :confused:




I think chiropractic medicine is an excellent source of palliative treatment for certain acute and chronic orthopaedic and/or neurological conditions. Nothing more, nothing less.

[OKC-SLC]

I'm basically a libertarian on most things, but I draw the line on crap people do, or choose not to do, that results in harm to babies and/or sucks money out of my pocket in the form of taxes.

That said, I would even go so far as to say, "look, you wanna be a morbidly obese tub of goo?" Rock on! But don't expect medicaid or some other taxpayer financed healthcare scheme to bankroll your lifestyle. Ditto smokers.
What is frustrating to me is I think the vast majority of Americans agree with this. This is one of the many reasons Americans would be vehemently opposed to a universal health care program if they understood what it would mean. One's health care arrangement would become less efficient, of lower quality, and no less expensive--and a large portion of the system would be necessary to care for those making poor lifestyle decisions.

I worked at three different VA hospitals during the course of my training (OKC, Salt Lake, and KC). Our Veterans are getting good care, trust me. However, anyone who thinks adding the Fed Gov't to the health care equation will do anything but decrease efficiency has no idea what they are talking about.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I recall Jonas Salk as a guest on a late night talk show back in the 80s, and thinking this is the wisest man I've ever heard speak - not just about medicine, but every topic that arose.




While attending the NYU School of Medicine, he heard two lectures that would change his life forever. Salk reflected on the lectures in 1990:

"In the first lecture, we were told that it was possible to immunize against diphtheria and tetanus by the use of a chemically treated toxin [to kill it]... In the very next lecture, we were told that in order to immunize against a virus disease it was necessary to go through the experience of infection. It was not possible to kill the virus... The light went on at that point. I said that those two statements can’t possibly both be true. One has to be false."