Losing Faith

[MR2-Sooner86]

While I visit many forums I was on one where one of the members talked about losing his faith. He said in seeing so much hatred in the world, mass shootings, Westboro Baptist Church and their hatred for the death of the innocent, and everything else, he questioned why he even believes in God.

Now while I myself am not losing faith, I am in a point in my life where I've questioned everything. I know and believe there's a God. To me that fact cannot be debated. I do however question church and organized religion. Call it being young or whatever but I was born into a family that went to a baptist church. I don't go anymore. I see all of these different churches and don't see the point. They all read from the same book but many say, "I'm the right one!" "Don't go there or you'll go to hell!" "We're the only ones allowed into Heaven!" I have my own beliefs from reading the Bible and many at my old church seemed to think I was crazy for having them. So I question that.

Now on that forum there were many atheist and many of them were brought up in a Catholic houses and other churches. Is it they truely are atheist or they're rebeling still against their parents and possible strict religious rules?

Now my question to everybody is did, have, or are you questioning why you believe what you believe? If you had, what got you through it? Did you change or keep the beliefs you were raised with?

I'm not looking for a "Proof of God" or "Baptist churches are wrong but Pentecostalism are not" debate here. I'm just asking everybody if they went what I'm going through now and how they came out of it.

:pop:

[JohnnyMack]

I was raised in the Methodist Church (FUMC here in Tulsa). Gave up religion when I was about 14. It stopped making sense to me. While I respect an individual's right to worship as he or she sees fit, I personally have no need for it. It wasn't a rebellion against my parents or any other religious rules, it was that to me the many of the tenets of Christianity seemed about as plausible as Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

[Taxman71]

I would add that the only thing that really matters is that you believe in Jesus. The denomination (Baptist, Methodist, Catholic) is your preference based on your beliefs and the type of people who attend. I don't think I could stomach any christian church that said their denomination or specific church is the ONLY way to get to heaven. I would recommend trying out various churches, possibly of different denominations, to see which one makes you want to get up and go as the happiest people are the ones who genuinely want to be there with their fellow worshipers.

And, yes, the teenage years, college years, philosophy class, etc. are hard on keeping one's faith.

[yermom]

i was brought up in that "we are right, everyone else is wrong" environment, and had it drilled into my head about how everyone else was corrupt, and hypocritical. as i turned that same lens onto my own religion i didn't see how it was all that different. reading the sensationalist publications and dealing with their arbitrary rules just became too much. i basically stopped going to church when i wasn't physically forced to do so anymore. the seeds of doubt had been planted long before that though when logical answers couldn't be given to my questions

it's not so much that i deny the existence of a god, i just don't have any real proof that it exists. if there is some all-powerful god, i'm not sure why it would care much about what i think.

[M]

I think it's normal and healthy to question your faith. I can only speak for myself, but when I was going through a really ****ty time in my life, it was easy to blame God or say that bad things were caused by his neglect/abandonment. However, a series of small yet important everyday "victories" strengthened my beliefs and assured me that he is with me on this journey.

FWIW I was brought up in the "God loves you no matter what" environment rather than the "Believe in God or you're going to hell!" school of thought.

That's my experience in a nutshell.

[crawfish]

I was also brought up in a "we're the only ones assured of being saved" denomination. I have questioned what I believe pretty much constantly over my lifetime; and although I still attend a congregation with the same "brand name" on the outside, I can say the questioning has utterly changed the nature of my faith. In fact, it is stronger now than ever.

One thing that I do appreciate from my background is that I was encouraged to never avoid the tough questions; to take them head-on with prayer and deep study. Through this, and the fact that my brain pretty much exists outside the bounds of any box, I have always been able to find personally satisfying answers to the problems I've encountered, in ways that I could have never predicted.

Faith is an irrational thing. It is wrong to think of it in any other way. The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven on a scientific basis, but faith can be strengthened through knowledge and personal experience. I can point to more than a dozen times in my life when I've "felt" the hand of God working, and I've come to the conclusion that I do not need tangible evidence to believe. I know that won't convince anybody who does not have faith already, but it's good enough for me.

[OklahomaRed]

"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you," Romans 8:11.

No religion will get you to heaven. There is only one God and He cares for you and desires that you know Him. The choice is yours. Take it or leave it. The point is, you, the Baptist, the Methodist, nor anyone else is God. There is only one God. Religion doesn't get to pick. God does. The question you need to ask yourself is whether or not you want to gamble eternity on a feeling, on what you in your earthly wisdom can decipher, or do you have the trust to believe that if there is a God that He would send part of Himself (Trinity - God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) to testify to the human race the truth? Or, you can choose to believe the other religion (they both have to be taken on faith) that you sprang up from a Big Bang (where did the big bang come from?) and some evolutionary ooze? Your choice. I'm not arguing with you, nor is it my job to convince you. That's betwen you and "your god". As for myself? I believe. There is too much that has happened to me in my life to believe otherwise. Hope you had a great Easter. :)

[85Sooner]

MR2 I appreciate your take on this and it is ripe for a good discussion.

We have been looking for a church for 10 years on and off. Grew up at First Christian Church in OKC. (the one that looks like a big Egg) on 36th and walker. We grew up with a minister that delivered a message, didn't quote alot of scripture. The music was traditional (Bach, Beethovan, Handle etc...). We dressed up for church.

The disappointing part I have noticed in most churches we have attended in the past few years. It is all scripted from books etc and projected on big monitors, people don't dress in their "sunday Best" The music is diplorable and barely ablt to be listened to. The ministers/preachers/fathers etc.... seem to regard a sermon as a short reading of one or another parts of the bible. They come to you for the cash but make you go get the communion. Every one of the church head are wearing robes indicating to me a position of superiority and power in the church. (note I am there to worship GOD not them. I will not bow to them or their alter etc....). The music is not sacred and more pop music if you will. Its the place where the "baarely a musican" can play.

IMO there is just a total lack of reverence and penitence for GOD. I see "churches" springing up in the nearest shopping malls. I think your
reference to "organized" religion and the upspring of non-denominational churches has led to many feeling a little more than disappointed.

[Melo]

I was not brought up to believe in anything. My mother was raised in a family that did not go to church, and my father was raised in a family where him and his brother were forced to go to church. So my parents decided not to make us go to church. I was in the 10th grade when I decided to start going to church. I went to a presbyterian church and loved it. I met a couple girls who were my ae and quickly became good friends with them. I was very involved with sunday school, youth group, anything that I could be involved in that would get me to church a couple nights a week.

The couple girls that I met were loved by everyone in the church. The moment I realized I wasnt a fan of continuing to go to church was when I found out about the two girls and what they did when they werent in church. One became pregnant, and had to get an abortion. The other one was a habitual liar, cheated on her boyfriends, etc. And everyone loved them. But when I would walk in to church, people would forget my name, not include me in things if the other girls were not there, etc.

I figured out on my own that I can grow in my faith and share my faith with others on my own, or outside of church. I dont NEED to go to church to have a strong relationship with God, I dont need to go to church to be religious or faithful. I can be faithful every day of the week and feel very fulfilled without going to church Sunday morning.

[Mjcpr]

I think it's all BS; I can't tell you the number of times I've asked to win the lottery or for the Sooners to stage some kind of miraculous comeback (i.e, TGOWWDNS, 08 Fiesta Bowl, etc) and each time he has failed to deliver.

In TGOWWDNS, I think it just got worse.

[OKLA21FAN]

I think it's all BS; I can't tell you the number of times I've asked to win the lottery or for the Sooners to stage some kind of miraculous comeback (i.e, TGOWWDNS, 08 Fiesta Bowl, etc) and each time he has failed to deliver.

In TGOWWDNS, I think it just got worse.

you just didn't pray hard enough, or wear one of those Nike knock-off Tshirts

[fadada1]

believe in whatever you want and don't judge someone because they don't believe the same way you do.

whatever is "out there" we're all going to find out anyway. no sense in arguing and killing each other over it and getting there too soon.

[yermom]

word.

[shaun4411]

i am lucky enough to not have been brainwashed into believing in an all knowing all powerful deity. i am free of those reigns. and for it, i feel as though i am more lucky than most.

[BigRedJed]

...don't judge someone because they don't believe the same way you do...
I think that's the best post yet. Crossing the line from honest and sincere belief to "on some level you're evil for not believing (or thinking) the same way I do" is the root of pretty much every war in human history, most human strife, and countless acts of evil. This is true of nearly every religious and political belief system, all of which can be taken to intolerant extremes.

The best bet is to live your own life in the best possible way you can, and in the way your belief system requires, and assuming you have faith in a deity of some sort, have confidence in His power to sort everyone out and judge accordingly in the end.

[SoonerBOI]

I firmly believe that it is necessary to question, or maybe a better term would to examine, our faith, for two reasons:

1.) As we go through life and it changes all around us, what was adequate faith before may no longer be. Either we've grown towards or away - unfortunately more likely away - from where we were.

2.) The devil loves to throw trials our way, which is usually the impetus for "questioning" our faith. At these times we feel a distance from God, and wonder where he is. For me, I get busy with my life, and my faith sometimes becomes a sub-conscious, or "automatic" thing, and not close and personal. I find that those times of trial are what make me examine my faith which in turn brings it back to my consciousness, bringing it back to a closer, more personal experience.

[Sooner_Bob]

With our recent move we've had the hardest time ever finding a church to regularly attend. I was brought up in the same church crawfish was and would probably still attend it if I hadn't had the opportunity to see new things and new ways to worship.

My wife and I can't really agree on this for the first time in our marriage. It's really been difficult for us to give in to the other.


To 85's post about the lack of dressing up and the change in music . . . times change, but God never will. We don't worship the way they did 1500 years ago . . . as long as God can see what's in your heart and you are sincere in your worship you'll be fine.

Song words and scriptures displayed on a screen should not be cause for concern IMO. While Sunday is specifically set aside as a day of worship, I feel that we should not solely focus on Sunday and make it anymore special than any other day in that aspect (dressing different, acting different, etc.). We should always celebrate our faith no matter the day or what we're wearing.

Christian music has changed over the years to appeal to more people. The message is the same, but the way it's given out is constantly changing.

Where people worship (traditional church building, mall, gym) shouldn't matter.

[StoopTroup]

Not judging others is an easy thing to say...

None of us actually do it 100% of the time.

It's a struggle for many of us.

Forgiving those who have wronged you and seeking forgiveness from those who we have wronged could go along way in helping folks who struggle with Faith.

You can get up everyday and go out into the World and choose to see the chaos or choose to accept that there is chaos and look for the good stuff.

You have the ability to choose your own path.

All things that are worth having in your life are usually better with practice.

Churches are a good way for many to use as a way to guage themselves and try to stay on track.

Churches who change with the times tend to make all of this much more difficult for those who struggle IMO.

Passing the collection plate is an important part of building the Church you attend...but helping to build a place of peace and reconciliation as a group allows us to build something positive and is a true giving experience. Those that make a fortune off of their place of worship tend to build Worship places that last as long as it's Founder. Few stand the test of time. Those that do withstand the changing times seem to be a place of true Reverence IMO.

God is watching us and we should try to include him in our lives as much as possible IMO.

For those of you who struggle, (myself included)...Peace be with you.

God Bless

ST

[SoonerStormchaser]

True story:

When it was looking like I was gonna have to take the AC-130 assignment to Florida and not get the AWACS to Tinker that I wanted, the wife and I sat down with our priest (we go to an Episcopal church just north of OU) to talk about how our marriage was going to survive if this sudden move did indeed happen. My wife was venting all her frustrations to him, saying that she felt like all the trials and tribulations we had gone through the past two years (our families starting out all but disowning the both of us after learning we were engaged, the two miscarriages, the long separation, etc.) were somehow God's way of making us pay for all our past mistakes in life. Fr. Dwight immediately said "I don't think that's the case, cause I'll resign my priesthood right now if I'm really working for a vengeful son of a bitch like that!"

People seem to forget and doubt God all the time nowadays...but, after what I just went through last week during resistance training in Washington, I'll be the first to tell you that God has NOT forgotten or doubted us!

[Mjcpr]

You know that poem about the one set of footprints and whatnot? I have one that says "The times when you have seen only one set of footprints in the sand, is when y'all were getting your asses kicked but good by 'SC."

God likes to rub it in I've noticed.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

Seems God cusses a lot, too.

[Mjcpr]

I was surprised that he spokes Chesterfield's too.

[Vaevictis]

The question you need to ask yourself is whether or not you want to gamble eternity on a feeling, on what you in your earthly wisdom can decipher, or do you have the trust to believe that if there is a God that He would send part of Himself (Trinity - God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) to testify to the human race the truth? Or, you can choose to believe the other religion (they both have to be taken on faith) that you sprang up from a Big Bang (where did the big bang come from?) and some evolutionary ooze? Your choice.

What you're busting out there is Pascal's wager, which is fatally flawed. Pascal posits the existence of two choices: Christianity or Atheism. Assuming Christianity is correct, you get paradise or hell depending on whether you believe or don't. If it's wrong, you get nothing in either case. Rational choice in this model is believe Christianity, because belief gets you the best result.

The flaw, of course, is in limiting the choice to Christianity and Atheism. What if Christianity is wrong, and the "real" God damns only Christian believers?

It's an utterly bogus argument.

As for my faith, it's simple: I believe that there is probably a God. I believe that this God instilled in me my rationality and conscience and imagination for a reason. I will follow my rational and imaginative mind, tempered by my conscience, and that will have to do.

Frankly, I have taken Tecumseh's proposition to heart: If God is infinite, all powerful, all knowing and many other all-things, and God created the many peoples of the earth, perhaps God manifested to them in the ways best suited to the way he created those peoples.

In my opinion, nobody has it 100% right. People corrupt. That's what they do. And short of God speaking to you personally, it all just boils down to "some dude told some dude who told some dude who told me." I don't trust "some dude." Sorry.

I'll trust the gifts that the Creator gave to me to lead me to where I need to be, because at least I KNOW those come from the Creator.

EDIT: Which, by the way, is a process of constantly questioning your faith ;)

[StoopTroup]

I'll trust the gifts that the Creator gave to me to lead me to where I need to be, because at least I KNOW those come from the Creator.


So basically everything else you said was really dribble.

It all centers around you and your mind? :D

[Vaevictis]

So basically everything else you said was really dribble.

It all centers around you and your mind? :D

Heh, look closely. It does with everyone. Some people choose to believe "some dude," which is a choice that springs from their mind. Me, I believe that the Creator speaks to ALL of us through our ability to reason and our conscience. (I understand that there is some basis for this even in Christianity, where the conscience is often viewed as a most basic, innate understanding of the Law.)

I'll take the word of the Creator over "some dude" any day.

[JohnnyMack]

You know that poem about the one set of footprints and whatnot? I have one that says "The times when you have seen only one set of footprints in the sand, is when y'all were getting your asses kicked but good by 'SC."

God likes to rub it in I've noticed.

The times when you have seen no sets of footprints in the sand, is when Reggie Bush was doing another somersault into the end zone against you guys.

[Mjcpr]

The times when you have seen one footprint and one kneeprint is when Mark Bradley was (God does the quotations thing with his fingers) fielding (/God does the quotations thing with his fingers) that punt.

[dw17]

The flaw, of course, is in limiting the choice to Christianity and Atheism. What if Christianity is wrong, and the "real" God damns only Christian believers


If you look at it as a Christian vs Athiesm only it is kind of bogus. But if you boil it down to an argument from a Christian (most of them) point of view it is a Christian vs Non-Christian (everything else such as Buddhism, Athiest, etc). If Christian views say they are the only way to Heaven then choosing not-Christian would not lead you there. So it is a valid argument from that point of view.

BUT, it's kind of a horrible way to look at it. If God created us to have an eternal relationship with Him why would He put it out there in a "choose me or die" sort of way. That would be a crappy way to get friends I would think.

I think of Heaven as being eternally with God in His presence. If you're not there you'd be eternally without His presence which could be explained as or called Hell. I like that explanation better than the fluffy cloud land vs burning lake of fire land one. I think we have the choice to choose whichever we want. We can't earn it, it's free. If we choose not to accept it, that's on us, no one else.

I do agree that accepting the gift of grace as Fire Insurance is a bad way to go through life.

[JohnnyMack]

I think that's the best post yet. Crossing the line from honest and sincere belief to "on some level you're evil for not believing (or thinking) the same way I do" is the root of pretty much every war in human history, most human strife, and countless acts of evil. This is true of nearly every religious and political belief system, all of which can be taken to intolerant extremes.

I think that post kinda goes against one of the primary missions of Christianity which is the spreading of "God's word", no? Aren't Christians asked to spread the message? How can you be a good Christian if you simply allow someone else's to have a completely different belief system? I mean they're going to hell if you sit back and accept that.

[StoopTroup]

What if some of us feel that you may have become "Omnipotent" and slap a straight jacket on you. ;)

I just feel that MR2 was having trouble with his faith and that having those feelings is normal. What we do about those feelings and how we live our lives is important.


Plenty of folks have given their lives work trying to find the proof.

Faith is an important part of our lives because centuries have passed as more and more Scholars continue to search.

[Partial Qualifier]

From early childhood to about 15 years old, my family (dragged me to) every different type of church under the sun - Presbytarian, Baptist, Methodist, i went to a Pentecostal school for a couple years during the Methodist phase, then a couple non-denominational churches, finally a Messianic Judaism congregation. My parents were looking for the "genuine deal". All along, I had my doubts about the existence of any God. I took the issue seriously, but I always wondered and doubted. So about 15-16 years old I convinced myself there is no God - I needed proof, and everywhere I looked there was no proof. Not to mention, all these different religious flavors, all of them think they are the "right religion". All things considered, the whole religion thing seemed like an excersize in futility so I stopped going to any kind of church.

I maintained my atheism because it made sense, but I always thought - if there is ever some proof of a God, I will reconsider my stance. Until that happens, well, obviously there is no God.

Then one day I was thinking about or talking to someone about Darwin's theory of relativity which doesn't address the whole "how did life get started" mystery and it dawned on me - not because I was looking for an answer or needed to believe in something - I realized that the whole "life just sprang up from a primordial soup" stance is utterly ridiculous. Completely ridiculous. Scientists aren't even close to explaining how this could possibly happen (and the amino-acids discovery in 1940-whatever doesn't even approach the issue, sorry) so about that time I realized there there *really could* be some sort of intelligence out there that "seeded" the earth with a life form which could adapt to the environment here, and take whatever form was necessary to survive. That idea, to me anyway, seems very credible when compared to a "lightning struck teh primordial soup and BOOM - life was created" scenario.

The intelligence "out there", in my view, isn't the traditional view of a loving God, white flowing robes, a big gray beard, etc. -- I mean, it COULD be, but it could be an alien civilization, advanced beyond anything we can comprehend -- I'm not settled on that yet. Needless to say, f I described my view in your average sunday-school class I'd probably be banned for life.

But on the topic of religion, I still have doubts about everything. IMO, if the intelligent being out there - I'll call it God to keep things simple - if God really did send a "Son" down to earth, he could've chosen a more effective method for him to convince all of us humans that God really does exist, i.e. not simply a "you just have to trust me" message. You know? If God could create the universe, life, etc. then he could've devised a more effective method of delivery. So the basis of most all Christian sects is still hard for me to swallow. And I fully appreciate the Bible, for what it is as well as what it stands for. It is completely amazing and it's hard to write off the Bible's dynamics as a bunch of "smart dudes from the olden days" concocting something to make mortality seem not-so-bad. So I don't write it off; I think it definitely could be "Divinely inspired" but inspiration alone is hard for me to trust.

And I think most (not all; most) Christian-based religions have done a wonderful job of screwing up the original message in the New Testament and how it tied into what was taught in the Old Testament. Jesus and his original believers would be totally aghast at what has become of Christianity.

now, neg away :)

[JohnnyMack]

The intelligence "out there", in my view, isn't the traditional view of a loving God, white flowing robes, a big gray beard, etc. -- I mean, it COULD be, but it could be an alien civilization, advanced beyond anything we can comprehend --

Now THAT would get my butt in the pew on Sunday mornings.

[BigRedJed]

I think that post kinda goes against one of the primary missions of Christianity which is the spreading of "God's word", no? Aren't Christians asked to spread the message? How can you be a good Christian if you simply allow someone else's to have a completely different belief system? I mean they're going to hell if you sit back and accept that.
I think that would depend upon your personal interpretation of scripture, provided you're a Christian. But I don't think feeling compelled to share your faith and yet still believing that ultimately your God is wise and qualified enough make the decisions regarding who is evil and who is not are mutually exclusive.

I remember more than a decade ago, a close friend and mentor of mine was murdered. He was murdered in cold blood, after catching a gangbanger breaking into his neighbor's suburban house while the neighbor was on vacation. Like me, a mutual friend of ours was also devastated by the murder. He gave it a lot of thought, and regretted not making the effort to do everything within his power to make sure our murdered friend was right with God before he was killed.

In keeping with his new examination of life, death, and his own faith, he felt compelled to approach me and ask me if I was right with God. He knew that our belief systems were very different, and he had concern for me. The way he handled it, though, was from a complete position of caring. I never felt like he was sitting in judgment of me. I only felt like he cared about me. In my understanding of Christianity, that is what every Christian should strive for.

[BigRedJed]

In other words, caring about others is good. Condescending judgment is bad.

[shaun4411]

What you're busting out there is Pascal's wager, which is fatally flawed. Pascal posits the existence of two choices: Christianity or Atheism. Assuming Christianity is correct, you get paradise or hell depending on whether you believe or don't. If it's wrong, you get nothing in either case. Rational choice in this model is believe Christianity, because belief gets you the best result.

The flaw, of course, is in limiting the choice to Christianity and Atheism. What if Christianity is wrong, and the "real" God damns only Christian believers?


though it seems like a good argument for the god thing, the fallacy is being that one would be simply feared into developing a belief. what use is it if you do it because youre afraid of the possibility of being wrong? then youre never really sure. i couldnt go about my life living a lie, knowing that i am living my life the way i do because i think that my true belief could possibly be wrong. thats no way to go. that makes you a sellout. shakespeare had it right: to thine own self be true. as an agnostic person, the idea that i may be wrong has crossed my mind (in fact id wager that i have considered this a possibility more seriously than the average christian), but it has not wavered my belief in my being right. i truly believe in what i believe, and the possibility of being wrong does not bother me because to me, the consequences have no credibility.

[85Sooner]

Faith ( ifthat is what we are talking about) is just that. There is no need for faith when proof has been demonstrated.

[crawfish]

i am lucky enough to not have been brainwashed into believing in an all knowing all powerful deity. i am free of those reigns. and for it, i feel as though i am more lucky than most.

Are you sure you didn't just trade them in for another set? ;)

[JohnnyMack]

In other words, caring about others is good. Condescending judgment is bad.

Pffft. That sounds stupid.

[BigRedJed]

Heh.

[JohnnyMack]

If Jesus were alive today, he'd be out in California, smokin' weed and just pretty much bein' a chill dude.

At least that's what I think.

[KC//CRIMSON]

AGNOSTICISM - What is this *hit?

ATHEISM - I don't believe this *hit!

BAPTIST FUNDAMENTALISM - *hit happens because the Bible says so.

BUDDHISM - *hit happens.

CATHOLICISM - If *hit happens, you deserve it.

FUNDAMENTALISM - If *hit happens, they deserve it.

HINDUISM - This *hit has happened before.

ISLAM - If *hit happens, it is the will of Allah.

JUDAISM - Why does *hit always happen to US?

PROTESTANTISM - Let *hit happen to someone else.

SOUTHERN BAPTIST - You're *hitting the wrong way!

[Stoop Dawg]

Now while I myself am not losing faith, I am in a point in my life where I've questioned everything. I know and believe there's a God. To me that fact cannot be debated.

You do see the contradiction there, don't you?

[Kels]

While I visit many forums I was on one where one of the members talked about losing his faith. He said in seeing so much hatred in the world, mass shootings, Westboro Baptist Church and their hatred for the death of the innocent, and everything else, he questioned why he even believes in God.

Now while I myself am not losing faith, I am in a point in my life where I've questioned everything. I know and believe there's a God. To me that fact cannot be debated. I do however question church and organized religion. Call it being young or whatever but I was born into a family that went to a baptist church. I don't go anymore. I see all of these different churches and don't see the point. They all read from the same book but many say, "I'm the right one!" "Don't go there or you'll go to hell!" "We're the only ones allowed into Heaven!" I have my own beliefs from reading the Bible and many at my old church seemed to think I was crazy for having them. So I question that.

Now on that forum there were many atheist and many of them were brought up in a Catholic houses and other churches. Is it they truely are atheist or they're rebeling still against their parents and possible strict religious rules?

Now my question to everybody is did, have, or are you questioning why you believe what you believe? If you had, what got you through it? Did you change or keep the beliefs you were raised with?

I'm not looking for a "Proof of God" or "Baptist churches are wrong but Pentecostalism are not" debate here. I'm just asking everybody if they went what I'm going through now and how they came out of it.

:pop:

I think that doubt is normal. I also think that Christianity is a rational faith, and can handle any cross-examination or critique.

Most people that I know who reject the God of the Bible have barriers that fall into one of three categories: intellectual, emotional, and volitional. The intellectual barriers are creation, veracity of the Bible, etc. The emotional barriers usually center around the problem of evil, mistreatment by other believers, and hypocrisy. The volitional barrier seems to be the person who acknowledges the truth of God but refuses to accept it on account of pride or unwillingness to change their lifestyle. As I have worked with university students over the years, many will have a combination of barriers keeping them from placing their faith in Jesus Christ.

What do I say to people who doubt or have serious barriers in trusting in the God of the Bible? Well, the Christian life is meant to be lived in community. Pursuing faith in isolation is inconsistent with the New Testament, and will only compound your doubt. As to the barriers? Well, there are a lot of resources in print that seek to answer every question raised against Christianity. I offer a recommended reading list if someone is an honest skeptic.

Ultimately, I put the burden back on the person of Jesus Christ. If someone has doubts or barriers, take the time to examine the life and teachings of Jesus. Is He worthy of our faith? Consistent churches and believers are nice, but my confidence is in the object of my faith, Jesus Christ.

I think that He can withstand our scrutiny and questions. I also think that I've found a community of believers that strives to be consistent with the teachings of Jesus. There are others out there too.

As a preacher's kid, and a current minister, I've had my doubts along the way as well. I sought counsel from my community, but in the end I had to go back to the person of Jesus Christ. For me, the doubts stop once I refocus on Him.

I pray that you'll figure things out. Thanks for being so honest.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

I think a lot of people confuse believing with having faith.

[JohnnyMack]

I think a lot of people confuse believing with having faith.

Are you gonna start quoting George Michael?

[Sooner Born Sooner Bred]

My parents were both Christians with my Mom being raised in church being there everytime the doors were open (because that's what you did) and my Dad being saved when I was little. However, I don't think either of them came from overly "religious" backgrounds.

At the beginning of my sophomore year in HS I went to a Falls Creek Fall Break Camp. I realized there that I was doing a lot of things that 15 year old girls have no business doing (shut up pervs) and hanging out with a bunch of people who basically made me feel like crap all the time. I became a Christian that weekend and consequently made better decisions about who I was going to date and what I was going to do in my spare time.

I ended up going to Oklahoma Baptist University because I really wanted to fit into this nice, churchy girl role. I quickly realized that people who have been raised going to church every Sunday and Wednesday since they were on the cradle roll can often (not always) be judgmental to anyone from a different background or who disagrees with their particular view of religion.

After a short hiatus in college, I went back to the Baptist church in which I was baptized not because I agree with their brand of Christianity, but because the pastor at the time was a true teacher of God's word. After he retired they brought in a minister who likes to talk about politics from the pulpit and who made the "gays are worse than terrorists" argument way before 2008.

So fast forward to today, and I'm pretty cynical about religion as a whole. I'm still a Christian and I see God's work in everyday things. I just can't make it a priority to try to find a church that I love with people with whom I want to worship.

[MR2-Sooner86]

You do see the contradiction there, don't you?

There is none. I questioned everything and came to my own conclusion that there is a God. When I dropped everything and asked myself and looked it all over, I realized there was a God. Now I have no problem getting into a philosophical or logical debate with an atheist because I have 100% faith and confidence in what I believe because of it.

[Sooner Born Sooner Bred]

I think a lot of people confuse believing with having faith.
Eli Stone?

[BigRedJed]

There is none. I questioned everything and came to my own conclusion that there is a God. When I dropped everything and asked myself and looked it all over, I realized there was a God. Now I have no problem getting into a philosophical or logical debate with an atheist because I have 100% faith and confidence in what I believe because of it.
Not to speak for Stoop Dawg, but I think what he's getting at is that there is inherent contradiction in saying you have "questioned everything" and in the same breath say that God's existence "cannot be debated."

[JohnnyMack]

Not to speak for Stoop Dawg, but I think what he's getting at is that there is inherent contradiction in saying you have "questioned everything" and in the same breath say that God's existence "cannot be debated."

Get your Mom to give us some of that stuff she smokes and we'll get all existential about this.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Not to speak for Stoop Dawg, but I think what he's getting at is that there is inherent contradiction in saying you have "questioned everything" and in the same breath say that God's existence "cannot be debated."

I get what you're saying. Let me be more clear, the question of if there is a God cannot be debated for me anymore. I know it. I no longer debate with myself, question, or doubt if there really is something bigger than myself. I know there is. That make more sense?

[BigRedJed]

Yep.

[BigRedJed]

And JM, I wish my poor mom was that cool. Alas, she's just a sweet, somewhat scatterbrained old lady that takes way too many herbal supplements.

[yermom]

you're just holding out on us. you don't wanna share that sage stash of hers

[olevetonahill]

Become an Agnostic , Its simpler.

[Stoop Dawg]

I get what you're saying. Let me be more clear, the question of if there is a God cannot be debated for me anymore. I know it. I no longer debate with myself, question, or doubt if there really is something bigger than myself. I know there is. That make more sense?

Gotcha. I was afraid that you had questioned everything *except* the existance of God. That, of course, is THE question. If you haven't questioned that, you haven't questioned anything (of substance) when it comes to religion.

You, somehow, landed on the side of "there is a God". I did not. As Crawfish pointed out, faith is irrational. I honestly don't know what makes one person believe and another not. Of course, I don't understand random drive-by shootings either, so I'm hardly an expert on human behavior.

[Stoop Dawg]

As to the barriers? Well, there are a lot of resources in print that seek to answer every question raised against Christianity. I offer a recommended reading list if someone is an honest skeptic.

I'd be interested in any reading anything that does NOT use the Bible as it's presumptive foundation.

[JohnnyMack]

So the plan is:

Get some stuff from Jed's mom.
Get baked.
Discuss further.

Who's in?

[Chuck Bao]

I believe in God and I pray every day. When I return home safely on my bike daily, I say a prayer of thanks. When someone at SO needs good thoughts / vibes / prayers, I pray and I honestly believe that it helps.

I have had more than my fair share of the bad and it seems that my faith gets tested regularly. So, I know how that feels.

I vowed many years ago to never allow the hypocrites at church take anything away from my faith. Every church – Christian, even Buddhist – has them. I haven’t allowed it, although I can’t say that I’m a regular attendee in an organized church.

As far as the Baptist faith goes, I still like that priesthood of the believer part.

And, no I don’t subscribe to the notion that you can be a good Christian and a good Buddhist, but you can’t be a good Buddhist and a good Christian.

We are known by our acts. I think that’s my religious motto.

[olevetonahill]

So the plan is:

Get some stuff from Jed's mom.
Get baked.
Discuss further.

Who's in?

In
As soon as I get a New thermometer, For My Shine cooker . Ill bring the Juice .:D

[Ike]

I was also brought up in a "we're the only ones assured of being saved" denomination. I have questioned what I believe pretty much constantly over my lifetime; and although I still attend a congregation with the same "brand name" on the outside, I can say the questioning has utterly changed the nature of my faith. In fact, it is stronger now than ever.

One thing that I do appreciate from my background is that I was encouraged to never avoid the tough questions; to take them head-on with prayer and deep study. Through this, and the fact that my brain pretty much exists outside the bounds of any box, I have always been able to find personally satisfying answers to the problems I've encountered, in ways that I could have never predicted.

Faith is an irrational thing. It is wrong to think of it in any other way. The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven on a scientific basis, but faith can be strengthened through knowledge and personal experience. I can point to more than a dozen times in my life when I've "felt" the hand of God working, and I've come to the conclusion that I do not need tangible evidence to believe. I know that won't convince anybody who does not have faith already, but it's good enough for me.


Believe it or not, this could be my story...except with the conclusions going totally in the opposite direction.

<craws quote, edited to fit my own experiences>

I was also brought up in a "we're the only ones assured of being saved" denomination. I have questioned what I believe pretty much constantly over my lifetime. I am technically still a member of the church I grew up in, although I rarely, if ever attend (usually when I'm back home visiting my folks, mainly for their appeasement) I can say the questioning has utterly changed the nature of my faith. In fact, it is weaker now than ever. And I don't really mind that.

One thing that I do appreciate from my background is that I was encouraged to never avoid the tough questions; to take them head-on with prayer and deep study. Through this, and the fact that my brain pretty much exists outside the bounds of any box, I have always been able to find personally satisfying answers to the problems I've encountered, in ways that I could have never predicted.

Faith is an irrational thing. It is wrong to think of it in any other way. The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven on a scientific basis, but faith can be strengthened (or in my case weakened) through knowledge and personal experience. I've come to the conclusion that maybe there is a god, maybe there isn't...but that in the end, I really don't care one way or the other whether or not there is a god. This is my life, and it's up to me, and no one else to find happiness and fulfillment in it, and thus far, I've been able to to a remarkable job of that without bringing god into it. I know that won't convince anybody who does have faith already, but it's good enough for me.


There are some people who mistakenly think that because I'm a scientist, that I must have replaced my faith in god with faith in science, and thats only true up to a point. The only faith I have in science that *eventually*, it will do a pretty good job of coming up with answers to the things we can study with scientific methods, but that most of the answers provided by science are works in progress..especially on the question of 'where do we come from?'. The fact that science can't explain everything isn't to me a failing of science. It's a totally awesome thing, because that means that there is a whole lot more out there to be fascinated by and study and understand.

[yermom]

my problem with faith and religion is that the majority of people get their belief in god from their parents, or their culture. so you just happen to be lucky enough to be born to the right ones?

also, sure some people feel god in their lives, but what makes them special? what about everyone else? why do bad things happen to good people?

[JohnnyMack]

my problem with faith and religion is that the majority of people get their belief in god from their parents, or their culture. so you just happen to be lucky enough to be born to the right ones?

So what happens if you have some individual who lives in the Mek tribe in New Guinea who is never exposed to any type of western religion. Never gets exposed to Christianity. This individual is a rapist and murderer. When he dies, does he get to go before the pearly gates and have his file reviewed for admission or do they just preemptively flush him? I mean maybe if he had heard the word of the lord he wouldn't have acted that way. And if he does get to go before the Angel Review Board and is all, "yeah, I'm sorry, I repent" does he get in? Because if he does that is total bull****.

[MojoRisen]

He may have to hang out in a holding cell for a couple of centuries -

Seriously - Raised Catholic - stopped practicing - went back and was confirmed. Prefer the Jesuit philosophy in all of that - My preference is to try and not judge people - I feel they can atone for stuff if they choose too and is a lot better than telling them they are done so do what ever you want...

I don't feel that if someone belongs to a different way is going to hell either.

Pretty much dig what Jesus says as it does make a lot of sense too me.. 10 comandments is a pretty good tool to try and be a good peson.

[shaun4411]

after converting from christianity to agnosticism/atheism, my life became much more simple. the answers to questions came easier, and i found an inner peace that i never thought existed. the grass is really cleaner on this side.

[Collier11]

I believe that organized religion has somewhat bastardized the reason for being in church. I have faith, when people ask me what I believe in I dont say Baptist, Methodist, etc... I say Christian! Having said that I do enjoy going to church, I just think when you have different denominations fighting amongst each other within the same religion it makes little sense.

What I believe in is God and salvation and that is all that matters to me!

[dw17]

after converting from christianity to agnosticism/atheism, my life became much more simple. the answers to questions came easier, and i found an inner peace that i never thought existed. the grass is really cleaner on this side.
Sure, you don't have any accountability except to yourself or the laws of the country you live. Of course that would be easier.

[Collier11]

it's not so much that i deny the existence of a god, i just don't have any real proof that it exists. if there is some all-powerful god, i'm not sure why it would care much about what i think.

God always cares about you, its up to you to accept that...

[Collier11]

believe in whatever you want and don't judge someone because they don't believe the same way you do.

whatever is "out there" we're all going to find out anyway. no sense in arguing and killing each other over it and getting there too soon.

just make sure that when the time comes, you are "taken care of" ya know

[dw17]

So what happens if you have some individual who lives in the Mek tribe in New Guinea who is never exposed to any type of western religion. Never gets exposed to Christianity. This individual is a rapist and murderer. When he dies, does he get to go before the pearly gates and have his file reviewed for admission or do they just preemptively flush him? I mean maybe if he had heard the word of the lord he wouldn't have acted that way. And if he does get to go before the Angel Review Board and is all, "yeah, I'm sorry, I repent" does he get in? Because if he does that is total bull****.

There's a couple of ways you can look at that.
You could say that he never heard the word to deny it (which would be the only unforgivable sin). When he heard it he accepted it and got in.

You could say that since he never accepted Christ on earth and since Christ is the only way to heaven he will not be there.

You could say that God sets in everyone's heart the difference between right and wrong and he knew better but did it anyway, didn't accept grace, and is not let in.

You could also say that it's not your call, it's God's. And even if he did get in after repenting why would that be BS? By whose standards? If it's by earthly justice standards you're right, it would be a raw deal. If it's by God's standards we all fall so far short there's nothing we can do to earn or unearn grace, we only have to accept or not accept it.


Depends on what denomination you are, I suppose. I'm kind of with the last one. Not my call. If I examine it in a scientific/fundamentalist way I'd say he wouldn't get in but again, not my call. I could only suggest to him the way I interpreted how he should act (if I were to see him). And if he did get in, why would it be any difference to me? When there we will all be in a constant state of happiness so it must not matter. We'll get rid of our earthly grudge carrying selves. Should be nice.

[Collier11]

I get what you're saying. Let me be more clear, the question of if there is a God cannot be debated for me anymore. I know it. I no longer debate with myself, question, or doubt if there really is something bigger than myself. I know there is. That make more sense?

Its ok to ask questions, just dont let the questions lead to doubt. then you get trapped by the bad in the world which makes things seem very confusing

[BigRedJed]

I like the way you think, NASCAR boy.

[Collier11]

So what happens if you have some individual who lives in the Mek tribe in New Guinea who is never exposed to any type of western religion. Never gets exposed to Christianity. This individual is a rapist and murderer. When he dies, does he get to go before the pearly gates and have his file reviewed for admission or do they just preemptively flush him? I mean maybe if he had heard the word of the lord he wouldn't have acted that way. And if he does get to go before the Angel Review Board and is all, "yeah, I'm sorry, I repent" does he get in? Because if he does that is total bull****.

everyone will be exposed to God at some point, it is up to them to observe it

[Collier11]

after converting from christianity to agnosticism/atheism, my life became much more simple. the answers to questions came easier, and i found an inner peace that i never thought existed. the grass is really cleaner on this side.

laziness is always easier, faith and belief in God isnt easy. Im not putting you down at all, im just stating a fact. I respect that you believe different than myself but I do pray that you see the other side because the payoff is much bigger and brighter!

[yermom]

have you actually read any of this thread?

[Sooner_Bob]

I'd be interested in any reading anything that does NOT use the Bible as it's presumptive foundation.

Why? The stories of Christ are based on eye witness accounts.

"Regular" history has no trouble believing in similar eye witness accounts of historical events. So why doubt the Bible?

[MojoRisen]

I am not sure David Copperfield could pull his stuff off back then. Like 40K fish from a basket...

[shaun4411]

laziness is always easier, faith and belief in God isnt easy. Im not putting you down at all, im just stating a fact. I respect that you believe different than myself but I do pray that you see the other side because the payoff is much bigger and brighter!

shaun isnt concerned about payoff. i am concerned with being true to my own belief. that's what matters. how convenient for me then that what i believe just happens to be easier than what you believe. good for me. i didnt make that choice. how i feel isnt a choice. i didnt choose that my favorite number is 11. it just appealed to me. same with my favorite color. or why i prefer brunettes over blondes. it isnt really a choice. its just something that means something to me, and matches with how i feel. same applies to my worldview.

[PhilTLL]

Its ok to ask questions, just dont let the questions lead to doubt.

This is one of the funniest things I've read this month.


laziness is always easier, faith and belief in God isnt easy. Im not putting you down at all, im just stating a fact. I respect that you believe different than myself but I do pray that you see the other side because the payoff is much bigger and brighter!

"I'm not putting you down, just saying that your mental process is lazy. I respect your conclusions but have the audacity to 'pray' you change them, because I know they're wrong."

[Vaevictis]

Why? The stories of Christ are based on eye witness accounts.

"Regular" history has no trouble believing in similar eye witness accounts of historical events. So why doubt the Bible?

Probably for the same reason we doubt that Zeus was running around knocking up women while in the shape of a goose.

[12]

Well, like much of the Bible (as I believe, anyway), the fishes and loaves story was symbolic; showing how our God works through us. By "feeding" the hungry and needy among us, the word was spread to all those who accepted the spiritual food. In turn, generations accepted this word as Gospel.

Did he do the whole KABLAM miracle stuff? I guess that is forever debateable, but as a lowly human, I'm more comfortable siding with what we know as God's word.

[Sooner_Bob]

how convenient for me then that what i believe just happens to be easier than what you believe. good for me. i didnt make that choice. how i feel isnt a choice.

How you feel isn't a choice? Are you serious? You chose to believe or not. You have the free will to do that. How you feel is based on the choices you make and the consequences that result from those choices influence how you feel. They are related.



i didnt choose that my favorite number is 11. it just appealed to me. same with my favorite color. or why i prefer brunettes over blondes. it isnt really a choice. its just something that means something to me, and matches with how i feel. same applies to my worldview.

So that's what life is all about for you? Feeling good?

[Sooner_Bob]

Probably for the same reason we doubt that Zeus was running around knocking up women while in the shape of a goose.

So you feel that the stories of Greek gods are on par with the story of Christ?

[StoopTroup]

Do any of you have trouble believing that these exist?

Pride, envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed and sloth.

Many dispute the existence of Saddam and Gomorrah yet there is proof it existed.

Is the story true?

It would seem there is an ever growing amount of proof that it did.

Again...more proof that there are many things in the Bible which should be considered by those whose mind tells them there is a creator.

To those of you who continue to doubt...do you doubt because it's just easier to swallow. Could it be that you might need to consider an adjustment in your life style?

Good thing you have a mind that will help you decide IMO.

[Vaevictis]

So you feel that the stories of Greek gods are on par with the story of Christ?

I think that they both make some strong claims about supernatural activity occurring, which ensures that any serious historian will look at an account with a heavy dose of skepticism.

[shaun4411]

How you feel isn't a choice? Are you serious? You chose to believe or not. You have the free will to do that. How you feel is based on the choices you make and the consequences that result from those choices influence how you feel. They are related.


So that's what life is all about for you? Feeling good?

i dont choose to believe what i believe. i just believe this because i think its correct. if i thought there was a possibility of god being real, or that it was real, then id believe. but i dont. it isnt feasible to me. ive tried the other side. i was raised by a jewish family and my best friend daily tries to get me to subscribe to christianity. i seriously considered both. heavily. in the end, i realized that the only thing i felt was true is what leads me to my agnosticism/atheism. i say that because i waiver between agnosticism and atheism here and there, with the basic precepts about my feelings staying at the core of my belief. i am 100% sure there isnt, but during my "considering" of christianity or judaism stage, i was bending towards agnosticism. i havnet fully concluded as to whether or not i am completely agnostic or atheist. though by definition, wouldnt that pretty much label me agnostic?

and no, isnt all about "feeling good"-- havent completely subscribed to full-fledged hedomism. but with my belief, comes the idea that what we have here is all there is. so i am going to enjoy it during my stay.

[Sooner_Bob]

I think that they both make some strong claims about supernatural activity occurring, which ensures that any serious historian will look at an account with a heavy dose of skepticism.

How many eye witness accounts would be enough to lend credence to something?

If 1000 people saw something, but you didn't would you still not believe it?

[Sooner_Bob]

i dont choose to believe what i believe. i just believe this because i think its correct.

So you choose to believe it? ;)

[yermom]

How many eye witness accounts would be enough to lend credence to something?

If 1000 people saw something, but you didn't would you still not believe it?

there are a 1000 people that have seen UFOs too...

just because some of the historical stuff in The Bible is historically verified doesn't mean that some dream John had about beasts and trumpets is the word of God

[yermom]

So you choose to believe it? ;)

so you actively choose to believe in God? it's not something you feel?

[JohnnyMack]

Do any of you have trouble believing that these exist?

Pride, envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed and sloth.



That movie was on the other day. Man does it kick ***.

[def_lazer_fc]

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e376/def_lazer_fc/flying-spaghetti-monster.jpg

[shaun4411]

So you choose to believe it? ;)

i dont choose to believe it. i just know its right. its like knowing what street you turn down to go home. it isnt a matter of choice. i cant choose to believe that 2 + 5 = 7. i just know its right. its a conclusion based on set evidence, experience and other variables.

likewise i cant just choose not to believe what i believe. then id be lying. i cant convince myself to stop liking brunettes. its like trying to turn a homo straight. they could try, but it wouldnt feel right.

[Vaevictis]

How many eye witness accounts would be enough to lend credence to something?

If 1000 people saw something, but you didn't would you still not believe it?

Well ****, if all that matters is that a bunch of people say they saw it, I guess that means that the guy on stage really DID cut that woman in half and put her back together again!

[crawfish]

there are a 1000 people that have seen UFOs too...

just because some of the historical stuff in The Bible is historically verified doesn't mean that some dream John had about beasts and trumpets is the word of God

I've seen a UFO. FWIW. ;)

I have trouble with the concept that a bunch of people would invent a guy, say they knew him and that he'd done miraculous things, and then start a new religion based on the guy that only led to the rejection by their society, torture, and painful death. I find it difficult to believe that another guy who was a comfortable, respected Jewish leader, would all of a sudden change to follow this new religion and spend most of the rest of his life in prison before being presumably executed.

Certainly, that doesn't constitute proof, but it should be enough to make any reasonable person go "hmmmm".

[crawfish]

Well ****, if all that matters is that a bunch of people say they saw it, I guess that means that the guy on stage really DID cut that woman in half and put her back together again!

How deeply would you have to believe it before you would die fo rit?

We're not talking about some weird California cult leader who bamboozles a few people into following him based on a powerful personality. We're talking about someone who willingly died, and afterwards his followers were willing to suffer all sorts of hardships to get his words out.

[yermom]

well, even by the accounts in The Bible the Jews and Romans at the time didn't believe those stories, right?

[crawfish]

well, even by the accounts in The Bible the Jews and Romans at the time didn't believe those stories, right?

Not all...

but the ones who died for it did. And many of them were eyewitnesses - his disciples, his relatives, his brother.

[yermom]

How deeply would you have to believe it before you would die fo rit?

We're not talking about some weird California cult leader who bamboozles a few people into following him based on a powerful personality. We're talking about someone who willingly died, and afterwards his followers were willing to suffer all sorts of hardships to get his words out.

if you believe those stories... i mean the muslims have prophets and similar devotion

[BigRedJed]

Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Marshall Applewhite (Heaven's Gate Cult) all willingly died, and had followers who did the same. How many Islamic fanatics have died on purpose because they believed it to be the will of Allah? Please don't think I'm comparing them to Jesus (at all), only illustrating that a willingness to die for your beliefs isn't reasonable criteria to determine the veracity of a faith.

[BigRedJed]

Dang yermom and his economy of words.

[Vaevictis]

How deeply would you have to believe it before you would die fo rit?

Pretty deeply. Of course, I find that a pretty worthless measure of the validity of any given religion, given that there are multiple religions that command that level of belief.

I find it doubly so, considering that the canonical books of the Bible were set at about the same time that Theodosius declared Christianity to be the state religion. Knowing religion and politicians the way I do, I suspect that Theodosius had more influence on the Bible than the Bible did on him.

See, the problem with me is that whenever I see the Bible, I think of the long, long chain of hands between me and the original author(s). I think of the person who wrote it, and I remember that every last one of them is a human with their own perceptions, ambitions and flaws, and IMO, it takes a special brand of fool to take it all at face value.

[BigRedJed]

I supose you would have to believe that chain of oral and written history, as it was passed along, was guided by God, and that his hand guided each and every translator and scribe that put it before you. That might be very difficult for a non-believer at at the same time quite easy for a believer. It is the very crux of religious belief, I think.

[BigRedJed]

And your point regarding Theodosius is well taken. The acceptance of Christianity as the state religion of Rome (or more precisely the forced conversion) was political to an extreme.

[shaun4411]

Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Marshall Applewhite (Heaven's Gate Cult) all willingly died, and had followers who did the same. How many Islamic fanatics have died on purpose because they believed it to be the will of Allah? Please don't think I'm comparing them to Jesus (at all), only illustrating that a willingness to die for your beliefs isn't reasonable criteria to determine the veracity of a faith.

i think we're all in agreement that many crazy demented people exist and have always existed.

[Vaevictis]

I supose you would have to believe that chain of oral and written history, as it was passed along, was guided by God, and that his hand guided each and every translator and scribe that put it before you. That might be very difficult for a non-believer at at the same time quite easy for a believer. It is the very crux of religious belief, I think.

I've heard that one before, and generally, my reaction is thus:

1. *snort*
2. IMO, that argument pokes a hell of a lot of holes in the notion that we humans have free will. If God ensured that the Word not be corrupted, think about the mechanisms required to achieve that.

(Of course, if you take the Bible at face value, just whip out Exodus, read the passage where God hardens Pharaoh's heart, and realize that God meddles with our "free will" whenever the hell he feels like it, and as such, free will doesn't truly exist.)

[BigRedJed]

I'm actually not disagreeing with you; just saying that I understand where both opinions come from. Faith will find a way to explain away most anything that's troublesome. That's why it's called "faith." To those who don't have it, it will appear to be fairly ridiculous.

[Vaevictis]

Yeah, I get that. Like you, I generally see both sides of it (and I certainly try to!).

I am just happy to rattle off either side of the argument until we both get bored and go find something more entertaining to do :D

[BigRedJed]

Heh. Have you seen the arcade?

[crawfish]

Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Marshall Applewhite (Heaven's Gate Cult) all willingly died, and had followers who did the same. How many Islamic fanatics have died on purpose because they believed it to be the will of Allah? Please don't think I'm comparing them to Jesus (at all), only illustrating that a willingness to die for your beliefs isn't reasonable criteria to determine the veracity of a faith.

There is a huge difference between how the 1st century Christianity took place and the examples you mention. The "charismatic leader" was killed, and the followers carried on in his name under their leadership. This went on for decades - as much as fifty years - before all the apostles were finally dead. The entire message was based on the leader's return from death AS WITNESSED BY THOSE WHO DIED FOR HIM. Why would they die to be rejected, tortured and killed, over a period of decades, for a lie they themselves were perpetrating?

All of the cults above were characterized by the control of a single, charismatic leader, who convinced them to take their lives before taking his own. The scale of what occurred is hardly comparable to what happened in the first century in real numbers; never mind the difference in population density.

Muslims? Well, keep in mind that Mohammad was a powerful and wealthy warlord who led his screaming hordes of followers into many military victories. His contemporary followers had far more to go on that basic faith, and had no need to depend on some element of the supernatural; they had a powerful charismatic leader driving them forward.

I'm talking about contemporaries of the founder, not subsequent followers (that's a different matter entirely). There are some similarities with other cults/religions; however, the differences are quite dramatic. Again, I know this isn't going to create faith, but it should be enough to make a thinking person go "hmmm"...

[Vaevictis]

Of course, one might just say, "Gee, there were a lot of idiots back then," look around and realize, "Gee, there are a lot of idiots today" and find that a perfectly plausible explanation ;)

[shaun4411]

Of course, one might just say, "Gee, there were a lot of idiots back then," look around and realize, "Gee, there are a lot of idiots today" and find that a perfectly plausible explanation ;)

there are *more* idiots today, but the ratio of idiot to normal person is lower these days. there are more educated and rational people who question things now than then.

[Collier11]

This is one of the funniest things I've read this month.



"I'm not putting you down, just saying that your mental process is lazy. I respect your conclusions but have the audacity to 'pray' you change them, because I know they're wrong."

I feel sorry for you...everything I have written has been out of respect to those I have responded to and you choose to insult my beliefs and logic in believing in them...that is sad! Enjoy life

[olevetonahill]

there are *more* idiots today, but the ratio of idiot to normal person is lower these days. there are more educated and rational people who question things now than then.

Thats cause THE church aint Burning em at the Stake !

[crawfish]

See, the problem with me is that whenever I see the Bible, I think of the long, long chain of hands between me and the original author(s). I think of the person who wrote it, and I remember that every last one of them is a human with their own perceptions, ambitions and flaws, and IMO, it takes a special brand of fool to take it all at face value.


And...I'm just that kind of fool. :D

Granted, it takes faith. Anything I can mention here that has inspired wonder and awe in me could be attributed by someone without faith as a misrepresentation, coincidence, chance or possibly delusion. That is the irrational thing - faith must come first, and reason must follow.

I have studied the origins of the Bible quite a bit, and for my part if it was manufactured and edited by the Roman Catholic Church as a script to forcibly convert the world, then I'm amazed at some of the stuff that got in. Essentially, they left stuff in that contradicted the laws they were pushing on their people.

[yermom]

there are *more* idiots today, but the ratio of idiot to normal person is lower these days. there are more educated and rational people who question things now than then.

nah, they just can't kill us now

at least here...

[Collier11]

i dont choose to believe what i believe. i just believe this because i think its correct. if i thought there was a possibility of god being real, or that it was real, then id believe. but i dont. it isnt feasible to me. ive tried the other side. i was raised by a jewish family and my best friend daily tries to get me to subscribe to christianity. i seriously considered both. heavily. in the end, i realized that the only thing i felt was true is what leads me to my agnosticism/atheism. i say that because i waiver between agnosticism and atheism here and there, with the basic precepts about my feelings staying at the core of my belief. i am 100% sure there isnt, but during my "considering" of christianity or judaism stage, i was bending towards agnosticism. i havnet fully concluded as to whether or not i am completely agnostic or atheist. though by definition, wouldnt that pretty much label me agnostic?

and no, isnt all about "feeling good"-- havent completely subscribed to full-fledged hedomism. but with my belief, comes the idea that what we have here is all there is. so i am going to enjoy it during my stay.

thats a choice, I was always pushed towards Christianity but I ultimately chose to continue following. Now my faith in God is what I believe and I choose to trust my faith

[Collier11]

I think that they both make some strong claims about supernatural activity occurring, which ensures that any serious historian will look at an account with a heavy dose of skepticism.

God has nothing to do with the "supernatural", that is where we differ

[olevetonahill]

Ever hear of the Apocrypha ?
The 66 Books that we read today , are not really all the books . Just what the early Church leaders wanted Every one to hear . See back then Only the High up holy shats had any way to read these Books .:confused:

[crawfish]

Of course, one might just say, "Gee, there were a lot of idiots back then," look around and realize, "Gee, there are a lot of idiots today" and find that a perfectly plausible explanation ;)

They could...but it would belie the true complexity of the issue.

Which is fine with most of you hillbillies. ;)

[Vaevictis]

And...I'm just that kind of fool. :D

FWIW, I think that almost everyone is a fool of some kind, so when you look at it from that point of view, "special kind of fool" isn't really as pejorative as it might appear at first glance. :)


I have studied the origins of the Bible quite a bit, and for my part if it was manufactured and edited by the Roman Catholic Church as a script to forcibly convert the world, then I'm amazed at some of the stuff that got in. Essentially, they left stuff in that contradicted the laws they were pushing on their people.

Do I think they did it in order to forcibly convert anyone? No, they had legionnaires for that. Do I think they might have fudged a few things here and there to suit their purposes, perhaps omitted a few things, or altered a few things? Hell yes. We've caught the Catholic Church (and other denominations) with their hands in the cookie jar plenty of times, and we should know better by now than to just take them at their word.

[Collier11]

Not all...

but the ones who died for it did. And many of them were eyewitnesses - his disciples, his relatives, his brother.

there is evidence of the resurrection of Jesus as well

[MojoRisen]

See, the problem with me is that whenever I see the Bible, I think of the long, long chain of hands between me and the original author(s). I think of the person who wrote it, and I remember that every last one of them is a human with their own perceptions, ambitions and flaws, and IMO, it takes a special brand of fool to take it all at face value.[/QUOTE]


That is pretty normal - I think about all that and think about the Catacombs as well. They must have believed pretty much with their own eyes to suffer persecution like that.

[Collier11]

Any person who chooses not to believe can come up with any argument that says Christianity and God are not real, the great thing is that I have my faith which is much stronger than any of those reasons. When I pass on, I know where I will spend eternity...those of you who choose not to believe I can respect you but I truly hope that your eternity isnt as bad as what my beliefs lead to.

Im not saying anyone that doesnt believe is a bad person or deserves pain and suffering, I just hope that somewhere along the line something bigger will lead you back.

There are millions of great people in the world but that doesnt get you where you need to be, I pray for all those people just as much as I pray for myself because I dont want anyone to suffer.

[shaun4411]

thats a choice, I was always pushed towards Christianity but I ultimately chose to continue following. Now my faith in God is what I believe and I choose to trust my faith

my faith is simply placed in a different place; me. i have faith in me, and how i feel about things. it isnt lazy, it isnt bad, it isnt wrong. and in no way is it a denigration or lacking in moral fiber on my part either.

[olevetonahill]

FWIW, I think that almost everyone is a fool of some kind, so when you look at it from that point of view, "special kind of fool" isn't really as pejorative as it might appear at first glance. :)



Do I think they did it in order to forcibly convert anyone? No, they had legionnaires for that. Do I think they might have fudged a few things here and there to suit their purposes, perhaps omitted a few things, or altered a few things? Hell yes. We've caught the Catholic Church (and other denominations) with their hands in the cookie jar plenty of times, and we should know better by now than to just take them at their word.

Me and V.V. are agreein
Hell Must be frezzin :cool:

[crawfish]

Do I think they did it in order to forcibly convert anyone? No, they had legionnaires for that. Do I think they might have fudged a few things here and there to suit their purposes, perhaps omitted a few things, or altered a few things? Hell yes. We've caught the Catholic Church (and other denominations) with their hands in the cookie jar plenty of times, and we should know better by now than to just take them at their word.

That's really my point. They had the ability, the opportunity, and the history that would enable them to alter the books to match what they were saying...and for some reason, they left in a lot of stuff that conflicted with it. If they'd made the changes then Martin Luther would've remained a good Catholic. :)

A history prof once told me that a document's chance for accuracy was increased if it presented a negative view of the culture or society in which it was derived. In other words, something like that wouldn't have been made up at a later time. I think that applies here...

[Collier11]

my faith is simply placed in a different place; me. i have faith in me, and how i feel about things. it isnt lazy, it isnt bad, it isnt wrong. and in no way is it a denigration or lacking in moral fiber on my part either.

Depends on your definition of wrong, you are probably a great person and act in a very morally sound way, but when I look at my faith it doesnt give you anywhere to go at the end of life but down. I hope that isnt true, like I said I dont want anyone to suffer but that is a part of my belief in God is the salvation that comes with it.

[olevetonahill]

7 pages and I guess Im the only Oldster here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7O81UZGWlY

[shaun4411]

Depends on your definition of wrong, you are probably a great person and act in a very morally sound way, but when I look at my faith it doesnt give you anywhere to go at the end of life but down. I hope that isnt true, like I said I dont want anyone to suffer but that is a part of my belief in God is the salvation that comes with it.


what i meant by wrong is the fact that it cant be proven wrong. nobody can prove im wrong. and your worldview places me on a lower stand. i understand that. and no offense, but that doesnt mean anything to me. i understand and respect the idea, but it doesnt carry weight with me.

[Ike]

I have studied the origins of the Bible quite a bit, and for my part if it was manufactured and edited by the Roman Catholic Church as a script to forcibly convert the world, then I'm amazed at some of the stuff that got in. Essentially, they left stuff in that contradicted the laws they were pushing on their people.

The church had a much easier go of it back then than they would have had now. They were greatly helped by the fact that the vast majority of people they were pushing their laws on couldn't read.

[olevetonahill]

That's really my point. They had the ability, the opportunity, and the history that would enable them to alter the books to match what they were saying...and for some reason, they left in a lot of stuff that conflicted with it. If they'd made the changes then Martin Luther would've remained a good Catholic. :)

A history prof once told me that a document's chance for accuracy was increased if it presented a negative view of the culture or society in which it was derived. In other words, something like that wouldn't have been made up at a later time. I think that applies here...

So Craw
Ya saying they was the 1st " Enron "
Ya know Cooking the Books ?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

A verse I live by

Philippians 2:12 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


As a pastor who works in a non denominational church, I have had my own journey of finding what I believe. I grew up in the Baptist church and left at the age of 21. I will not say anything bad about the denomination because all I saw was what went on my local church. I decided that I didn't quite fit there so I went the Methodist route....the Lutheran...Presbyterian...Assembly of God..Preached my first message in the AG....Heck I tried the Holiness too. Nothing seemed to fit what I personally believed. They all held elements of my views, but not enough to keep me interested..

[Collier11]

what i meant by wrong is the fact that it cant be proven wrong. nobody can prove im wrong. and your worldview places me on a lower stand. i understand that. and no offense, but that doesnt mean anything to me. i understand and respect the idea, but it doesnt carry weight with me.

Im not trying to convert you or force anything on you, im just sharing my beliefs compared to yours and I hope that you would listen closely but if you choose not then I am not going to call you a bad person because of it.

Ive got a lot of improvement to make in my life, that is why I feel lucky to have my faith because it guides me and helps me. If you choose different I can respect that even though I disagree.

[Stoop Dawg]

Faith will find a way to explain away most anything that's troublesome. That's why it's called "faith." To those who don't have it, it will appear to be fairly ridiculous.

Exactly. You can't prove Christianity by using the Bible as your base, as belief in the Bible requires faith in Christianity and vice-versa. If one wants to provide rational debate for the logical truth of Christianity such debate cannot be based on the non-historical accounts of the Bible.

For example, how many people witnessed the creation story?

[shaun4411]

Im not trying to convert you or force anything on you, im just sharing my beliefs compared to yours and I hope that you would listen closely but if you choose not then I am not going to call you a bad person because of it.

Ive got a lot of improvement to make in my life, that is why I feel lucky to have my faith because it guides me and helps me. If you choose different I can respect that even though I disagree.

thats nice of you. you arent the first person and most certainly wont be the last one to say that exact same thing to me. i understand my shortcomings and I too work on them to make improvements in my life. not having faith wont stop me from being socially or morally successful. i honestly dont see that having any religious faith would in any way enhance my ability to make good decisions. (i.e. "good" christian or "good" muslim people making horriblly immoral decisions knowing full well how their god views those decisions) becuase i already make decisions based on my own morality and what i view is right (something i feel is innately ingrained inside us as we develop while growing up)

[Stoop Dawg]

Any person who chooses not to believe can come up with any argument that says Christianity and God are not real, the great thing is that I have my faith which is much stronger than any of those reasons. When I pass on, I know where I will spend eternity...those of you who choose not to believe I can respect you but I truly hope that your eternity isnt as bad as what my beliefs lead to.

Im not saying anyone that doesnt believe is a bad person or deserves pain and suffering, I just hope that somewhere along the line something bigger will lead you back.

There are millions of great people in the world but that doesnt get you where you need to be, I pray for all those people just as much as I pray for myself because I dont want anyone to suffer.

Rest assured that the muslims are praying for your soul as well. They hope that you will eventually find truth.

Does that change your beliefs? Even slightly? Mine neither.

[Collier11]

Rest assured that the muslims are praying for your soul as well. They hope that you will eventually find truth.

Does that change your beliefs? Even slightly? Mine neither.

Of course not, although many Muslims also pray that I die every day. I can only hope that Christians dont believe that way though I am sure I would be kidding myself that some of them arent that level of a hipocrite!

[Stoop Dawg]

Well, like much of the Bible (as I believe, anyway), the fishes and loaves story was symbolic; showing how our God works through us. By "feeding" the hungry and needy among us, the word was spread to all those who accepted the spiritual food. In turn, generations accepted this word as Gospel.

Did he do the whole KABLAM miracle stuff? I guess that is forever debateable, but as a lowly human, I'm more comfortable siding with what we know as God's word.

Here is the other problem with using the Bible as any kind of "proof" or backing for a rational belief in or or support of Christianity. The Bible is nothing of not vague and open to interpretation. Witness the scores of different denominations and religions all preaching from the same book.

[Stoop Dawg]

Of course not, although many Muslims also pray that I die every day. I can only hope that Christians dont believe that way though I am sure I would be kidding myself that some of them arent that level of a hipocrite!

Actually, several professed Christians have conveyed their desire on this very board to have the entire middle east carpet bombed.

Edit: My line of reasoning (display that both sides are guilty of being ***-hats) never fares well. Let's go with this instead:

"After all of the posts in this very thread about how hypocrits who claim to be Christians should not reflect poorly on Christianity, are you really going to pull out the 'There are bad people from other religions' card?"


Second Edit: Neither of my two previous attempts makes my point. Sorry. Here is my final answer:

"My point is that having someone 'pray' for you when you don't believe in their religion doesn't impact your opinion at all. In fact, you probably find it somewhat insulting."

[shaun4411]

Actually, several professed Christians have conveyed their desire on this very board to have the entire middle east carpet bombed.

well thant isnt very christian of them. where in the bible does it say " In JDAM we trust?"

[BigRedJed]

Dang timing ruiner. Eventually I'll learn to quote things.

[Collier11]

Well the only thing I can say to that is that being a Christian doesnt make anyone perfect, I would hope that they arent serious and if they were I would hope that they would ask for forgiveness. I have said many insensitive things in my life, done stupid and selfish things, and thought many bad thoughts in my life. The good thing is that I have asked for forgiveness and I certainly needed it.


On a seperate but related note, it does bother me that those of us who are Christian are viewed by some non-Christians as hipocrites if we screw up in any way, shape, or form. As I said, being a Christian doesnt make you perfect or free of bad decisions, it only allows us redemption. Im not accusing anyone on this board of that, just speaking generally.

[Collier11]

I would like to say that I certainly appreciate that we can have this talk mostly as strangers and for the most part everyone has respected each other. It is encouraging!

[Stoop Dawg]

Well the only thing I can say to that is that being a Christian doesnt make anyone perfect, I would hope that they arent serious and if they were I would hope that they would ask for forgiveness. I have said many insensitive things in my life, done stupid and selfish things, and thought many bad thoughts in my life. The good thing is that I have asked for forgiveness and I certainly needed it.


On a seperate but related note, it does bother me that those of us who are Christian are viewed by some non-Christians as hipocrites if we screw up in any way, shape, or form. As I said, being a Christian doesnt make you perfect or free of bad decisions, it only allows us redemption. Im not accusing anyone on this board of that, just speaking generally.

Perhaps you should afford the same courtesy to other religions.

Also, please see my second edit. Thanks.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Wow, this thing grew since I last posted in it. Anyway, I picked the right day to do this as a perfect example showed up.

I go to college at Rogers State in Claremore and there was a couple of preachers with some followers that showed up at the student union and were "preaching" to us.

Their message was that our college was full of drinking, sex crazed, pot smoking sinners that were going to Hell. We could not be forgiven because God did not love sinners like us. He said the sorority girls were sluts that were betraying the word of God. The women were sinning because they were not being submissive to men because God created women to be men's servents and not do things like go to college. They had such great messages.

Now as I stated, I believe in God or a God. What I question is, as I said, church and organized religion. The first example being the loons that were at my campus today.

Next, what's in the news? Obama's church preaching that white people are sinners because of everything done to blacks. That's a nice loving message there.

Then we have Westboro Baptist Church going around saying "God hates fags" and protesting at soldiers funerals saying they got what they deserved.

I know those are extreme examples but do you see where I'm going? It's on a smaller scale but I see problems like this all the time and I wonder why should I even get mixed up in it.

Like the church I use to go to had a youth pastor that started a Christian rock band with the youth and invited a bunch of gothic kids to service trying to reach out to them. I think he even held like Halo tournaments. He did well as he really reached out to young people and really helped spread the word at the local high school. What happened? The majority of the church said he was doing un-Godly things that were not "traditional" and kicked him out and ran off all the kids.

I could go on and on but this seems to be the problem everywhere I look. People in church also seem to project the image that anything sexual is pure evil even though it's needed to continue the species. If it has a drop of alcohol it's Satan's beverage (even though Jesus drank wine).

So I ask myself, what's the point of getting mixed in with a bunch of people that don't care about others but just their religious social status?

[Collier11]

I dont judge others based on race or religion. I disagree sometimes with choices but I certainly would never want to disrespect anyone. Anytime in my life that I have disrespected one of those I have certainly tried to apologize

[Blue]

All you atheists get your panties in a wad so easy. Your mind setting traps for your heart.

I'll say Jesus is the only way to the father and I won't apologize for it. It's the truth. And I've seen enough of these discussions to know that the, "educated" and the "rational" folks won't let it go till they feel they've justified themselves. I'm talking about noone in particular. JMHO.

[Collier11]

"My point is that having someone 'pray' for you when you don't believe in their religion doesn't impact your opinion at all. In fact, you probably find it somewhat insulting."

I dont necessarily agree, I dont think when you pray for someone it is insulting at all. I am praying for protection, health, help, etc...I dont know why anyone would find that insulting even if I am praying to My God. I appreciate every prayer I receive

[BigRedJed]

All you atheists get you panties in a wad so easy. Your mind setting traps for your heart.

I'll say Jesus is the only way to the father and I won't apologize for it. It's the truth. And I've seen enough of these discussions to know that the, "educated" and the "rational" folks won't let it go till they feel they've justified themselves. I'm talking about noone in particular. JMHO.
This discussion seems to have a different tone than most of the ones we've seen in the past, Blue. Have you read the whole thread?

[Collier11]

Wow, this thing grew since I last posted in it. Anyway, I picked the right day to do this as a perfect example showed up.

I go to college at Rogers State in Claremore and there was a couple of preachers with some followers that showed up at the student union and were "preaching" to us.

Their message was that our college was full of drinking, sex crazed, pot smoking sinners that were going to Hell. We could not be forgiven because God did not love sinners like us. He said the sorority girls were sluts that were betraying the word of God. The women were sinning because they were not being submissive to men because God created women to be men's servents and not do things like go to college.


Those people came to OU every year and I can say I have little respect for them...that is not the way God wants his word conveyed, thru hate and judgment. They are the same as people who protest war or violence with personal attacks and violence...counter-productive and laughable

[Blue]

This discussion seems to have a different tone than most of the ones we've seen in the past, Blue. Have you read the whole thread?


Yes i have and I've seen words like "educated" and "rational" thrown around to imply believers are neither. Smacks of self-righteousness. I wish I knew my scripture better but it talks ad naseum of people who trust in their own wisdom and not in God.

[JohnnyMack]

Their message was that our college was full of drinking, sex crazed, pot smoking sinners that were going to Hell. We could not be forgiven because God did not love sinners like us. He said the sorority girls were sluts that were betraying the word of God.

Sounds like fun. Pick me up an application.

[BigRedJed]

Yes i have and I've seen words like "educated" and "rational" thrown around to imply believers are neither. Smacks of self-righteousness. I wish I knew my scripture better but it talks ad naseum of people who trust in their own wisdom and not in God.
That's fair. Of course, there's generally enought self-righteousness to go around from all quarters in religious and political discussions. I'm just encouraged and amazed that "smacking" of self-righteousness is the worst we've all done in 8 pages on this subject. Lots of good, well-thought-out discussion from all points of view, IMO.

Of course, I probably just jinxed it. :D

[JohnnyMack]

All you atheists get your panties in a wad so easy. Your mind setting traps for your heart.

All you Christians get your panties in a wad so easy. Your heart setting traps for your mind.

;)

[Ike]

That's fair. Of course, there's generally enought self-righteousness to go around from all quarters in religious and political discussions. I'm just encouraged and amazed the "smacking" of self-righteousness is the worst we've all done in 8 pages. Lots of good, well-thought-out discussion from all points of view, IMO.

Of course, I probably just jinxed it. :D


This post just smacks of bull****. ;)

[Collier11]

Your heart setting traps for your mind.

;)

well said!

[Blue]

That's fair. Of course, there's generally enought self-righteousness to go around from all quarters in religious and political discussions. I'm just encouraged and amazed that "smacking" of self-righteousness is the worst we've all done in 8 pages on this subject. Lots of good, well-thought-out discussion from all points of view, IMO.

Of course, I probably just jinxed it. :D

That's why I've avoided it for 8 pages. :D It's all downhill from here.

It's hard for me to read these threads without taking it personal. I take the Bible literally and as an absolute truth through study and life experience. I see where people don't buy it, but it makes me want to proclaim it even more.

Carry on...

[Collier11]

It is certainly hard to proclaim your faith as the absolute truth without ****ing some people off, I really dont worry about that because I want every person to feel the Glory of God and it is my hope that by some act of faith someone on here that doesnt believe reads my comments or someone elses and decides to change their life or at the least, look into it a little deeper. That being said, I also dont want to pass judgment on people with different views and beliefs. That is why I am so encouraged by this thread and the level of restraint and respect we have all shown!

[olevetonahill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7O81UZGWlY
When I was an Active Ordained Minister
I preached the Bible .
And Let My life Be the proof .
When I could No longer Believe that was what I was doing ,I quit .
Now I just Believe in a Creator :cool:

[olevetonahill]

It is certainly hard to proclaim your faith as the absolute truth without ****ing some people off, I really dont worry about that because I want every person to feel the Glory of God and it is my hope that by some act of faith someone on here that doesnt believe reads my comments or someone elses and decides to change their life or at the least, look into it a little deeper. That being said, I also dont want to pass judgment on people with different views and beliefs. That is why I am so encouraged by this thread and the level of restraint and respect we have all shown!

I have Faith ,
I walk O/S and see the Sun . I see the the Movement Of the trees and Grass as the wind Moves them. I see the Birds and Flowers , bees and Taste the Honey
And I Know theres a Loving Creator .
Then I see the Ticks , Chiggers and skeetrs and say
WTF

[Ike]

I could go on and on but this seems to be the problem everywhere I look. People in church also seem to project the image that anything sexual is pure evil even though it's needed to continue the species. If it has a drop of alcohol it's Satan's beverage (even though Jesus drank wine).

So I ask myself, what's the point of getting mixed in with a bunch of people that don't care about others but just their religious social status?

In some ways, churches are no different than any other kind of community/organization...and in many ways they share a great number of the same types of people. The backbiters, the gossippers, the politickers, etc...labelling this thing or that thing (when referring to everyday things) to be evil is simply the mechanism through with members of the community attempt to exercise their superiority over others.

At least, thats the way I tend to think of these things these days...I may think differently later, but for the time being, this is an interesting lens to view churches under....

[Blue]

The church is most definitely sick. Prophesy tells us that in the latter days apologetics and apostasy will run rampant on its way towards the ecuminial church. I call it, "Oprahs Church." The idea of all of us coming together under one religion. The idea that we all serve the same God. Many super churches (Rick Warrens) seem to be heading that way. Not to mention our own President, a self proclaimed Christian, has said that the God of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are the same God.

Dangerous stuff IMO.

[Ike]

I've seen a UFO. FWIW. ;)

I have trouble with the concept that a bunch of people would invent a guy, say they knew him and that he'd done miraculous things, and then start a new religion based on the guy that only led to the rejection by their society, torture, and painful death. I find it difficult to believe that another guy who was a comfortable, respected Jewish leader, would all of a sudden change to follow this new religion and spend most of the rest of his life in prison before being presumably executed.

Certainly, that doesn't constitute proof, but it should be enough to make any reasonable person go "hmmmm".

Craw, I respect your point of view....However, this isn't something thats going to convince a non-believer...especially if they read the gay foreigner thread, where Boarder I believe, gave a very nice refutation of the "why would they choose that?!?" argument.

[Collier11]

I have Faith ,
I walk O/S and see the Sun . I see the the Movement Of the trees and Grass as the wind Moves them. I see the Birds and Flowers , bees and Taste the Honey
And I Know theres a Loving Creator .
Then I see the Ticks , Chiggers and skeetrs and say
WTF

your distiller is broke again! :D

[olevetonahill]

Blue Bro
Are Ya saying There Isnt But One God ?
Which Im gonna spin this off In another direction
Back in the Day Ya know when the Jews was the Only ones that God Liked and stuff . Who were those other folk worshipin ?
Every Civilisation since the Dawn Of Humans have worshipped something . a god, a Bush , a rock, the sun, the Moon , the wind whatever!
Which leads me to BELIEVE in a CREATOR , Plus the Fact I look out My window and see a Baby Fawn By its Moma .
The Aztecs Didnt Worship Jehova , But They Believed In something
Why Im an Agnostic Now .
I have Come to believe That All religions are RIGHT . and all Religions are
WRONG
Kinda Like Paul wrote
we see as In a Glass Darkly !:pop:

[Blue]

Them skeeters are just spreading the love of God throgh blood transfusion. It says that in Lamentations I believe. ;)

[Collier11]

The church is most definitely sick. Prophesy tells us that in the latter days apologetics and apostasy will run rampant on its way towards the ecuminial church. I call it, "Oprahs Church." The idea of all of us coming together under one religion. The idea that we all serve the same God. Many super churches (Rick Warrens) seem to be heading that way. Not to mention our own President, a self proclaimed Christian, has said that the God of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are the same God.

Dangerous stuff IMO.

Im ignorant on this fact so enlighten me, did he say they were the same or that they take on a lot of the same ideas and qualities of life?

[olevetonahill]

your distiller is broke again! :D

It aint brokanated
I just Over Heated it !:mad:

[olevetonahill]

Them skeeters are just spreading the love of God throgh blood transfusion. It says that in Lamentations I believe. ;)

There Is Nothin new under the sun .

[Collier11]

It aint brokanated
I just Over Heated it !:mad:

:twinkies:

[Blue]

The God of Judaism and Christianity are the same God. I believe the God of Islam is Satan. I believe that because it is said Mohammad wrote the Quoran while having visions in a cave, writhing around like snake and foaming at the mouth(yes I know hearsay and John wrote revelation in similar circumstances) The Quoran and the Bible are fundamentally at odds with each other. All gods before Christ were disproven by the life and death of Christ if you believe he was the Son of God which brings us back to that tricky "Faith" thing.

[Blue]

Im ignorant on this fact so enlighten me, did he say they were the same or that they take on a lot of the same ideas and qualities of life?

I have no idea. I always assumed it would be a church that doesn't have it right. The idea that , is becoming more popular btw, we all serve the same God throws up red flags for me. It could mean many things: worshiping money, ourselves, the earth, etc.

I believe in the rapture pre-trib so that could put alot of prophesy in motion really quick. Some believe the rapture is the next step.

[Collier11]

There are a million things as a Christian that I need to take on more seriously, one is understanding the Bible better.

[olevetonahill]

So your a Preemie ?
Ive Talked to Pre, Mid and Post.
I have Read the Entire Bible a time or 40
I have a Full set Of Matthew Henry Commentary Plus a Strong's .
Bro I really did Spend a Lot of time In Prayer and Study .
I can see from the Bible where there IS PROOF of all 3 sets Of beliefs of the Rapture .

[olevetonahill]

There are a million things as a Christian that I need to take on more seriously, one is understanding the Bible better.

That will Just **** you up !
Trust me .
Keep your Faith simple , If your Gonna believe

[Blue]

I have been studying it alot more lately. It's the most important thing as Christians we can do. Know it front to back. I'm not even close. I've read it but I need to read it 100 more times. I would love to be able to argue these points with scripture but I just can't pull them out like that.

I'm really interested in prophesy. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel. If you take it they wrote those books 500 years before Christ, it sealed the deal for me.

[Collier11]

Most of my education of the stories of the Bible is from Bible school as a child and My grandparents. My grandparents are Great Christians and have taught me a lot, I took a BIble as Lit class in college which was pretty interesting.

I have gone to Church my entire life although ive gotten lazy with age. I went on Easter which really made me realize that I am lacking in this area and I am trying to get back in more often.

I have been longing to read the entire Bible for some time now, I just need to dive in!

[Blue]

So your a Preemie ?
Ive Talked to Pre, Mid and Post.
I have Read the Entire Bible a time or 40
I have a Full set Of Matthew Henry Commentary Plus a Strong's .
Bro I really did Spend a Lot of time In Prayer and Study .
I can see from the Bible where there IS PROOF of all 3 sets Of beliefs of the Rapture .


I know or think you've had it rough, Vet. If you don't mind me asking, with such study, why did you lose your faith that Jesus was or wasn't the Son of God. Don't answer if that is too personal. I find that interesting.

[OU-HSV]

Wow, this thing grew since I last posted in it. Anyway, I picked the right day to do this as a perfect example showed up.

I go to college at Rogers State in Claremore and there was a couple of preachers with some followers that showed up at the student union and were "preaching" to us.

Their message was that our college was full of drinking, sex crazed, pot smoking sinners that were going to Hell. We could not be forgiven because God did not love sinners like us. He said the sorority girls were sluts that were betraying the word of God. The women were sinning because they were not being submissive to men because God created women to be men's servents and not do things like go to college. They had such great messages.

Now as I stated, I believe in God or a God. What I question is, as I said, church and organized religion. The first example being the loons that were at my campus today.

Next, what's in the news? Obama's church preaching that white people are sinners because of everything done to blacks. That's a nice loving message there.

Then we have Westboro Baptist Church going around saying "God hates fags" and protesting at soldiers funerals saying they got what they deserved.

I know those are extreme examples but do you see where I'm going? It's on a smaller scale but I see problems like this all the time and I wonder why should I even get mixed up in it.

Like the church I use to go to had a youth pastor that started a Christian rock band with the youth and invited a bunch of gothic kids to service trying to reach out to them. I think he even held like Halo tournaments. He did well as he really reached out to young people and really helped spread the word at the local high school. What happened? The majority of the church said he was doing un-Godly things that were not "traditional" and kicked him out and ran off all the kids.

I could go on and on but this seems to be the problem everywhere I look. People in church also seem to project the image that anything sexual is pure evil even though it's needed to continue the species. If it has a drop of alcohol it's Satan's beverage (even though Jesus drank wine).

So I ask myself, what's the point of getting mixed in with a bunch of people that don't care about others but just their religious social status?

First off,I've found this to be a very interesting thread on an important/interesting topic. It's cool how open a lot of you have been throughout this thread

Secondly,that being said, I'm not meaning to threadjack, but RSU has sororities now??? That's a big improvement, cause they didn't have that a few years ago when my buddies and I were there. And we were the closest thing to a fraternity that RSU had back then. Of course it was a much, much, much smaller school then. And we were involved in the beginning stages of making the huge changes that have taken place when I attended school there. Amazing what's been done to that campus.

[Collier11]

I have been studying it alot more lately. It's the most important thing as Christians we can do. Know it front to back. I'm not even close. I've read it but I need to read it 100 more times. I would love to be able to argue these points with scripture but I just can't pull them out like that.

I'm really interested in prophesy. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel. If you take it they wrote those books 500 years before Christ, it sealed the deal for me.

The most important thing we can do is Honor God, spread the word, and repent for our sins. Understanding the word completely is impossible IMO but it is something that needs to be attempted and researched

[Blue]

I have been longing to read the entire Bible for some time now, I just need to dive in!

I was saying the same thing. I would hate to get to heaven and be told, "Dude. I gave it all to you. You didn't even read it.":D

[Blue]

The most important thing we can do is Honor God, spread the word, and repent for our sins. Understanding the word completely is impossible IMO but it is something that needs to be attempted and researched


I agree. I guess I meant to be able to do those things, taking instruction from the source fascilitates them.

And realizing we stink and Christ payed our price.

[Collier11]

I would rather go to Heaven and be told I was a lazy and selfish than to not go at all ;)


This thread has me thinking, how much of GW's faith has to do with his general hatred by many? It is one thing to disagree with his policies or choices but it seems many hate him at a very extreme level. GW is very outfront with his faith and has said that he is confident that he made the right decision to go to war and his Christian faith has guided him thru the tough times and decisions. Coincidental?

[olevetonahill]

Bros and Sisters Heres My story
How to do a Cliffs version :confused:
Long time ago I was drafted :(
to Be continued
Just lettin Ya know Im responding but I type sLow

[Blue]

Like I said earlier, GW's belief that Tehran and Jerusalems God are the same makes me think his faith is seriously mis-guided. Not saying he's not a Christian, but how could you think that?

[Collier11]

I cant really anwer that, ive never heard him say that. Not to say he hasnt, I would just need to hear it for myself or read it so I could pass judgment for myself

[Blue]

Bros and Sisters Heres My story
How to do a Cliffs version :confused:
Long time ago I was drafted :(
to Be continued
Just lettin Ya know Im responding but I type sLow

I can't begin to imagine that I've seen the ugliness this life has to offer. The older I get, the more I'm sure faith will be tested. I would not even begin to judge your life or decisions Vet. Just curious if you think God wasn't there through all of that mess.

[Collier11]

I am going to call it a night but if anything I have said is listened to I hope any non-believers or believers will listen to this...God is always there, he may not answer every prayer or protect you from all of lifes struggles physically, but he is always guiding and protecting spiritually. Nothing we will experience is nothing we cant handle, trust in God and you will find your guiding light.

Thanks for a good convo, im sure ill join back in tomm while at work. Ive got to accomplish something meaningful at work ;)

[Blue]

Politics getting in the way of Doctrine. Yikes. It's not unforgiveable, just mis-informed IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dp4t-UMbnc

[olevetonahill]

I helped My folks Move from Cal . Back here to OK .
I had never been in a church befor ( cept to steal the Poor Offering thingie when I was a Kid :O )
Im on My way to nam Ok ? My Lil sweet Granma Had me go to her lil Block church .
hell next thing I know they have Me yanked up in front and 50 Folks are Grabbin me and Yellin and Screamin . Not really But at the time It seemed like it .
So anyway O go to Nam , dont think No Mo .
come Home Go wild as a Peach orchard Boar.
Im feeling Like a cat with 9 lives and 8 already gone .
I get Rich , I get poor again .
My Oldest son Ends up in a wheel Chair . I pray , he gets well
I go to Church , Feel the Call .
I buy Books , I study , I have 4 differant Bibles sos I can compare em .
I become an Ordained AG minister
I preach My lil Heart out
My Ex bitch Leaves Me fer another Dude .
Im No longer welcome In the AG
So I say **** you 2
I rock on get married again , Join the Espikples .
That shat dont Last very long
Kids are all grown , I get Married again
3rd Bitch says She will help me In a Ministry If thats what I want to do
I say Aint God good :confused:
So I buy a 50x 50 tent and And become an Evangilist thru the PCOG
She Falls in love with and Icecream peddler ( Schawmnns Dude )
I sell the Tent Buy Beer
And Say God
WTF ?
and here I am :D

[olevetonahill]

I can't begin to imagine that I've seen the ugliness this life has to offer. The older I get, the more I'm sure faith will be tested. I would not even begin to judge your life or decisions Vet. Just curious if you think God wasn't there through all of that mess.

Bro Ive seen Miricles
Ive watched as People Have gotten up Out of wheel chairs .
I think Now Its More that It was thier FAITH , More than any Power that worked for them .

[Collier11]

I helped My folks Move from Cal . Back here to OK .
I had never been in a church befor ( cept to steal the Poor Offering thingie when I was a Kid :O )
Im on My way to nam Ok ? My Lil sweet Granma Had me go to her lil Block church .
hell next thing I know they have Me yanked up in front and 50 Folks are Grabbin me and Yellin and Screamin . Not really But at the time It seemed like it .
So anyway O go to Nam , dont think No Mo .
come Home Go wild as a Peach orchard Boar.
Im feeling Like a cat with 9 lives and 8 already gone .
I get Rich , I get poor again .
My Oldest son Ends up in a wheel Chair . I pray , he gets well
I go to Church , Feel the Call .
I buy Books , I study , I have 4 differant Bibles sos I can compare em .
I become an Ordained AG minister
I preach My lil Heart out
My Ex bitch Leaves Me fer another Dude .
Im No longer welcome In the AG
So I say **** you 2
I rock on get married again , Join the Espikples .
That shat dont Last very long
Kids are all grown , I get Married again
3rd Bitch says She will help me In a Ministry If thats what I want to do
I say Aint God good :confused:
So I buy a 50x 50 tent and And become an Evangilist thru the PCOG
She Falls in love with and Icecream peddler ( Schawmnns Dude )
I sell the Tent Buy Beer
And Say God
WTF ?
and here I am :D

Ok, I was almost gone. I can only say that many including myself often complain about our lives but you have had some tough times. You IMO are living proof of GOD as much as some may think that is crazy. How else could you still be standing after all youve been thru? Just MHO but I think God knew you could handle more so he gave you more just to show how strong faith in him can make a man. Keep chuggin along VET, youre a good man and more happiness awaits!

[Blue]

Wow. Great testimony. Job don't have much on you. :)

Would you say what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Or would that be cliche'd BS?

Would you look back on your life and see purpose throughout it or was it all a random ride?

Just wondering. Feel free to tell me it's none of my business. :D

[Collier11]

Politics getting in the way of Doctrine. Yikes. It's not unforgiveable, just mis-informed IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dp4t-UMbnc

Ok, now im gone after this statement! I watched to clip, I look at his words a little differently than you and that is fine. I see him saying that God has different names but he is GOD ultimately, he ended it by saying basically that he may be wrong and it isnt his place to say who will get to Heaven


Im not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with him, just stating that I think he has somewhat of a idealistic view of God

Not sure if any of that made sense, I think differently than I write sometimes :O

[Collier11]

Keep chuggin along VET!

Well Hell, I didnt mean literally...now weve lost him for the night :D

[olevetonahill]

Ok see
I still believe to some extent
I try Real Dayum Hard to Not be a Stumbling Block to any one . Ill ad My prayers for anyone that Needs em

To me Its Been one Hell of a ride
Ive been to the Highest Mountains and some Of the Lowest Valleys .
Ive Been so Rich that I Bot Dinner for 50 In the Most spensive Place In town
2 years later I was In a 3/4 ton truckwith a Cabover camper (borrowed )
trying to Feed My Youngest son .
We survived It all

[olevetonahill]

Well Hell, I didnt mean literally...now weve lost him for the night :D

hell bro
I can Hang lol

[Blue]

It seems you realize that the highs and lows do not make you who you are? Life is FUBAR right now. All we can do is trust in the Potter that he knows what he is shaping?

Just throwing out questions. :D

[olevetonahill]

It seems you realize that the highs and lows do not make you who you are? Life is FUBAR right now. All we can do is trust in the Potter that he knows what he is shaping?

Just throwing out questions. :D

Bro does that Not just Contradict ?
I have become a Firm believer That Lifes a Bitch then Ya die
Cept In My case ya marry 3 of em 1st .Get 3 Great Kids from the 1st one .
I will Discuss the Bible with anyone , and Give Honest Opinions
But the One thing I refuse to do Is become a stumbling Block. For anyones Faith Or creed .

[MR2-Sooner86]

Secondly,that being said, I'm not meaning to threadjack, but RSU has sororities now??? That's a big improvement, cause they didn't have that a few years ago when my buddies and I were there. And we were the closest thing to a fraternity that RSU had back then. Of course it was a much, much, much smaller school then. And we were involved in the beginning stages of making the huge changes that have taken place when I attended school there. Amazing what's been done to that campus.

Yeah, they have two sororities Alpha Sigma Alpha and Alpha Sigma Tau. There's also the Pi Kappa Alpha fraternity which I'm in. It is growing pretty good now. I think it's close to 20% more people enroll every semester.

Anyway, I think I agree with what many are saying. I believe the church still thinks it's the 1950s and is not changing with new generations. That's my view anyway. It seems many of the old folks won't give into new ideas and if it worked for them it'll work for the young kids. Which it won't. As I stated that youth leader did new things and got a lot of kids in church and we see where that went. The TV is not filled with I Love Lucy or Andy Griffith anymore. Sex and drugs are drilled into our culture no matter how hard it's tried to be swept under the rug. Video games are fun and are no longer simple like pong or pac man. If the Christian church as a whole won't adapt and will keep these rivals on the inside it'll never grow and will slowly fall from the inside out.

Again, that's just my view from what I've seen.

[Blue]

I refuse to do Is become a stumbling Block. For anyones Faith Or creed .

The use of the phrase, "Stumbling Block" makes me think God definitely resides in you.

[Blue]

Bro does that Not just Contradict ?
I have become a Firm believer That Lifes a Bitch then Ya die
Cept In My case ya marry 3 of em 1st .Get 3 Great Kids from the 1st one .
I will Discuss the Bible with anyone , and Give Honest Opinions
But the One thing I refuse to do Is become a stumbling Block. For anyones Faith Or creed .

I don't think it contradicts. Something is wrong with the world. We are separated from our creator until we recognize the payment for our sins. Life is still messed up, but we realize why and look forward to perfect fellowship with him when we overcome our sins and conquer death by belief and through the works of Jesus Christ.

[olevetonahill]

The use of the phrase, "Stumbling Block" makes me think God definitely resides in you.

Not Necessarily bro
I can encourage you along your Path Of Becoming a Better christian .
As I can Encourage an Agnostic ;)
See I have a Little knowledge . and It spreads In all Directions
I do Believe In a CREATOR
I just Dont Believe That we as mere ****ants upon this earth can Evar Know or Understand Him /Her /IT
just sayin

[Blue]

If the Christian church as a whole won't adapt and will keep these rivals on the inside it'll never grow and will slowly fall from the inside out.

Again, that's just my view from what I've seen.

The Bible says that is exactly what will happen. I'd say focus on the word.

[Blue]

Not Necessarily bro
I can encourage you along your Path Of Becoming a Better christian .
As I can Encourage an Agnostic ;)
See I have a Little knowledge . and It spreads In all Directions
I do Believe In a CREATOR
I just Dont Believe That we as mere ****ants upon this earth can Evar Know or Understand Him /Her /IT
just sayin

Well no earthly man can understand the heavenly father. But he did give us kinda a myspace profile of himself. We can get to know him. Stumbling block is a word used alot in the new testament which leads me to believe you've been branded.;)

[MR2-Sooner86]

The Bible says that is exactly what will happen. I'd say focus on the word.

Which part? I think there's something in Revelations but I do remember in Mathew I think where Jesus was talking about the end times. There will be those who claim to be him. There will also be those who say they are him and the only way. Now the question is that is he talking about the anti-christ or could this be him talking about the great division among the Christian church as a whole? Who knows, maybe the anti-christ could be a preacher who comes along trying to re-unit the Christian church and take away the separation?

[12]

During the past spring break, I ended up in an uncomfortable conversation about homosexuality's role in modern media. I was in the roll of "unconfortable guy going, 'yeah, yep, well, hmm." Shreck and Sponge Bob providing an obvious avenue for an agenda?

I am conservative and most certainly hetero. That said, it was disturbing to hear what a "threat" gay dudes have become to the heartland.

I'm going to guess they aren't just the fun-loving, accepting people I knew in college any longer. Too bad, because those dudes could make a mean bloody mary.

For the record, I didn't buy it. Still, it was strange to hear an opinion out there that was so slanted toward the 1970s I grew up with in Oklahoma.

Then again, I'm a biggot. There were parts of the argument that made sense.

Eh, screw it. I hear bobcats are going for $130 a pop. I'll be out shooting.

[olevetonahill]

I don't think it contradicts. Something is wrong with the world. We are separated from our creator until we recognize the payment for our sins. Life is still messed up, but we realize why and look forward to perfect fellowship with him when we overcome our sins and conquer death by belief and through the works of Jesus Christ.

I Pray You make it there Bro
See I said Ill Discuss the Bible , Not Faith .
Ill give you a Few differant ways to see the Scriptures
Not Tell you which way Is right .


Now You just said" WE are Separated from our creator"
"We" nevar Have been ! Im asuming Your a Gentile here ?
Jesus Came to Save the Jews . after That the rest of us . See It was After the Crucifixion and Resurrection that Redemption was Given to All .

[Blue]

Which part? I think there's something in Revelations but I do remember in Mathew I think where Jesus was talking about the end times. There will be those who claim to be him. There will also be those who say they are him and the only way. Now the question is that is he talking about the anti-christ or could this be him talking about the great division among the Christian church as a whole? Who knows, maybe the anti-christ could be a preacher who comes along trying to re-unit the Christian church and take away the separation?


Not sure where. Mathew, Isaiah, Daniel... I'd have to search. Basically saying the birth pangs (the universal church being part of it) would get worse before Christs Kingdom.

[Blue]

I Pray You make it there Bro
See I said Ill Discuss the Bible , Not Faith .
Ill give you a Few differant ways to see the Scriptures
Not Tell you which way Is right .


Now You just said" WE are Separated from our creator"
"We" nevar Have been ! Im asuming Your a Gentile here ?
Jesus Came to Save the Jews . after That the rest of us . See It was After the Crucifixion and Resurrection that Redemption was Given to All .

All part of the plan though, right? He blinded them so we (the gentiles) might be saved.

[olevetonahill]

Which part? I think there's something in Revelations but I do remember in Mathew I think where Jesus was talking about the end times. There will be those who claim to be him. There will also be those who say they are him and the only way. Now the question is that is he talking about the anti-christ or could this be him talking about the great division among the Christian church as a whole? Who knows, maybe the anti-christ could be a preacher who comes along trying to re-unit the Christian church and take away the separation?

" Many will Come In My name "
I think your On the right Track
Hes Here No hes there .
Ill answer you ?
In His words Hes Talkin about Both
The Anti Christ AND the Differant Chirches
cause See they are the Same Thing
I was asked Once If I believed In the 7 levels Of hell?
I said Naw I think hells Just Gonna be Hot
But If there are Diff , levels the Lowest is Reseved For Preachers !

[12]

Nattie's ahellofa drug.

;)

[Blue]

23 minutes in Hell is an interesting read. As is 90 minutes in Heaven.

[olevetonahill]

Which part? I think there's something in Revelations but I do remember in Mathew I think where Jesus was talking about the end times. There will be those who claim to be him. There will also be those who say they are him and the only way. Now the question is that is he talking about the anti-christ or could this be him talking about the great division among the Christian church as a whole? Who knows, maybe the anti-christ could be a preacher who comes along trying to re-unit the Christian church and take away the separation?

Its Matthew 24 vers 5

[olevetonahill]

All part of the plan though, right? He blinded them so we (the gentiles) might be saved.

But hes a Benevilent God
Why he do that ?

[Blue]

He knew they would make that CHOICE?

[Ardmore_Sooner]

The "blinding" of the Jews was not an arbitrary action on God's part but rather the result of their turning from His revelation in Christ. Jesus Himself gave them ample opportunity to receive the word but in general they refused.

[olevetonahill]

He knew they would make that CHOICE?

Lets Go back to gen. Ok ?
God Created the World right ?
He Knew from the begining How itd all Turn out .
Whats the Point ?
See what Im sayin ?
If God Knows your next Move in a Chess Game why does He play ya ?
Im not trying to Confuse you
I just want you to Think about your answers !:cool:

[olevetonahill]

The "blinding" of the Jews was not an arbitrary action on God's part but rather the result of their turning from His revelation in Christ. Jesus Himself gave them ample opportunity to receive the word but in general they refused.

More ?

[Blue]

Lets Go back to gen. Ok ?
God Created the World right ?
He Knew from the begining How itd all Turn out .
Whats the Point ?
See what Im sayin ?
If God Knows your next Move in a Chess Game why does He play ya ?
Im not trying to Confuse you
I just want you to Think about your answers !:cool:


The point is that I'm living and breathing right now and I have the choice on what path I walk whether its pre-ordained or not. It's my choice.

I won't try to understand all of Gods ways as it is a futile endevour.

[Ardmore_Sooner]

If God Knows your next Move in a Chess Game why does He play ya ?


All I know is I'd rather live a life for Christ, die and find out that it was for nothing. Just to rot in the ground.

Rather than not live my life for God, die and realize that my life was wasted.

I can't give you all the answers to why God did this and that. If I could or if Blue could, we would be God. There would be no reason to read the Bible, to believe in anything if we knew all the answers. I can't give you any answers that will quench your intellect. I know that it won't make sense but I just live by faith. Agnostics hate that because there is no backing to it, but for some its all the backing we need. I'm not sure why God blinded the Jews, but Romans says that they will be saved.

[olevetonahill]

The point is that I'm living and breathing right now and I have the choice on what path I walk whether its pre-ordained or not. It's my choice.

I won't try to understand all of Gods ways as it is a futile endevour.

Bro Going back to Me Not Wanting to be a Block ok ?
Just think about a few things Ok ?
Choice , The world was wicked
Noah Built a Boat , He and His Family Got a ticket . along with the Critters
Was there No Innocent Baby ? Just Born ?
Did said Child Get a Choice ?
It(child) was born and Died Befor grace .

[Ike]

All I know is I'd rather live a life for Christ, die and find out that it was for nothing. Just to rot in the ground.

Rather than not live my life for God, die and realize that my life was wasted.




Aaaandd we're back to Pascal's wager.

The bit about what happens when you die is one of those things that further turn me off from religion. For all the lack of evidence I have that god exists, I have even less evidence that an afterlife exists.

[Ardmore_Sooner]

Aaaandd we're back to Pascal's wager.

The bit about what happens when you die is one of those things that further turn me off from religion. For all the lack of evidence I have that god exists, I have even less evidence that an afterlife exists.

I hate religion too man. Religion is a false teachings by man. I believe in The Truth though :D

[Blue]

Bro Going back to Me Not Wanting to be a Block ok ?
Just think about a few things Ok ?
Choice , The world was wicked
Noah Built a Boat , He and His Family Got a ticket . along with the Critters
Was there No Innocent Baby ? Just Born ?
Did said Child Get a Choice ?
It(child) was born and Died Befor grace .


"Woe to those who are nursing and with child in that day" -wish i could remember book and verse. :D

Children before they reach the age of accountability are saved. God will judge every man woman and child. "Every knee will bow and every mouth will Confess Jesus is Lord."

[olevetonahill]

All I know is I'd rather live a life for Christ, die and find out that it was for nothing. Just to rot in the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7O81UZGWlY

Rather than not live my life for God, die and realize that my life was wasted.

I can't give you all the answers to why God did this and that. If I could or if Blue could, we would be God. There would be no reason to read the Bible, to believe in anything if we knew all the answers. I can't give you any answers that will quench your intellect. I know that it won't make sense but I just live by faith. Agnostics hate that because there is no backing to it, but for some its all the backing we need. I'm not sure why God blinded the Jews, but Romans says that they will be saved.

Welcome to the Dance Bro
Im an Agnostic By seeing the world
Im not asking For answers
But since you brot it up
Ya say that In Romans the Jews Will Be saved ?
How ?
Dont they have to Accept Jesus ?
If they Dont , then arnt they Condemned to Hell ?

[olevetonahill]

Aaaandd we're back to Pascal's wager.

The bit about what happens when you die is one of those things that further turn me off from religion. For all the lack of evidence I have that god exists, I have even less evidence that an afterlife exists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7O81UZGWlY
Is that what you sayin ?

[Blue]

For all the lack of evidence I have that god exists, I have even less evidence that an afterlife exists.

Supposedly you have enough evidence by looking out your window or looking at how your body works to make the decision on whether or not he exists. Again I can't remember the exact verse but it talks about just that. There's more than enough evidence that you have no excuse.

[Ardmore_Sooner]

Aaaandd we're back to Pascal's wager.

The bit about what happens when you die is one of those things that further turn me off from religion. For all the lack of evidence I have that god exists, I have even less evidence that an afterlife exists.

Seriously though I can't answer how God came to be. Where He came from, other than He has always been. But I can answer your question as well as you can answer my question...

Where did the universe come from? Where did the stars, planets, and particles in space come from?

Some of the greatest minds have been trying to figure these questions out for millennium and have no answer. Never will either.

Like I said I can't give you physical proof that God exists, or that there is an afterlife at all. I believe there is but that doesn't help you at all.

[Ike]

Seriously though I can't answer how God came to be. Where He came from, other than He has always been. But I can answer your question as well as you can answer my question...

Where did the universe come from? Where did the stars, planets, and particles in space come from?

Some of the greatest minds have been trying to figure these questions out for millennium and have no answer. Never will either.

Like I said I can't give you physical proof that God exists, or that there is an afterlife at all. I believe there is but that doesn't help you at all.
I never asked a question....
The thing is...I don't care what the answer to where anything came from turns out to be. I don't care if thats god, and I don't care if it's something else. Just because the bible has an answer, and others don't doesn't make the bible (or any other creation story) any more belivable to me.

Trying to find out though, either way, is a hell of a lot of fun.

[olevetonahill]

I hate religion too man. Religion is a false teachings by man. I believe in The Truth though :D

Bro
Blue Knows Me a tad
But aint what you Preachin ? Relegion ?
Where Can I find Your Truth???
Dont tell me the Bible , Less you wanta read all the Pages heer . Dont Tell Me My knees cause I been there to .
Give me this Truth that you speak of .

[Ardmore_Sooner]

Welcome to the Dance Bro
Im an Agnostic By seeing the world
Im not asking For answers
But since you brot it up
Ya say that In Romans the Jews Will Be saved ?
How ?
Dont they have to Accept Jesus ?
If they Dont , then arnt they Condemned to Hell ?

Been trying to figure this out myself. Read Chapters 10-12 (I think those are the ones) and trying to figure out exactly how that works. Like I said, I don't have all the answers, if I did I'd be God. I really haven't the slightest clue how He thinks and what He thinks about me. The Jews are still God's chosen people and always will be.

[Blue]

Welcome to the Dance Bro
Im an Agnostic By seeing the world
Im not asking For answers
But since you brot it up
Ya say that In Romans the Jews Will Be saved ?
How ?
Dont they have to Accept Jesus ?
If they Dont , then arnt they Condemned to Hell ?

A remnant will be saved. In the war of Ezekial 38 and 39 God will show himself to the Jews again by destroying invading armies. Rapture and Tribulation. They will turn back to him. The temple will be rebuilt. the 2 prophets will preach at the temple and be killed. Christ will come back. The times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled and the millenial reign of Chist will begin.

[Ardmore_Sooner]

Bro
Blue Knows Me a tad
But aint what you Preachin ? Relegion ?
Where Can I find Your Truth???
Dont tell me the Bible , Less you wanta read all the Pages heer . Dont Tell Me My knees cause I been there to .
Give me this Truth that you speak of .

"I am the way, the truth, and the life." Jesus ;)

John 8:12

[Ike]

Supposedly you have enough evidence by looking out your window or looking at how your body works to make the decision on whether or not he exists. Again I can't remember the exact verse but it talks about just that. There's more than enough evidence that you have no excuse.


Mabye, but I don't buy it. Sure, my body's a cool thing. But I don't buy that it took an all knowing creator to give me an appendix.

[Ardmore_Sooner]

Mabye, but I don't buy it. Sure, my body's a cool thing. But I don't buy that it took an all knowing creator to give me an appendix.

Then where did it all come from?

[Ardmore_Sooner]

Vet get out of the Casino! Trying to keep things interesting here! ;)

[Blue]

Mabye, but I don't buy it. Sure, my body's a cool thing. But I don't buy that it took an all knowing creator to give me an appendix.

And thats your perogative(sp?). I'm surprised that scientists and the like are not completely in awe of the ultimate brain. We're all built different.

[olevetonahill]

I never asked a question....
The thing is...I don't care what the answer to where anything came from turns out to be. I don't care if thats god, and I don't care if it's something else. Just because the bible has an answer, and others don't doesn't make the bible (or any other creation story) any more belivable to me.

Trying to find out though, either way, is a hell of a lot of fun.

No shat
I have one Foot On this Hill and another foot on that Hill :confused:

[Ike]

Then where did it all come from?

Why should I care where it came from? It's as plausible to me that the planet was seeded for life by aliens as it is that some magical being put us here, in his image. Evolutionary theory does a decent, if incomplete job of providing a possible path to how we got here. There could be many other plausible paths to how we got here. I DONT CARE WHICH IS RIGHT!

[Ike]

And thats your perogative(sp?). I'm surprised that scientists and the like are not completely in awe of the ultimate brain. We're all built different.

We'd love to be in awe of the ultimate brain, and poke and prod it until we've learned everything we can from it. We just can't find it to do our poking and prodding.

[Ardmore_Sooner]

Why should I care where it came from? It's as plausible to me that the planet was seeded for life by aliens as it is that some magical being put us here, in his image. Evolutionary theory does a decent, if incomplete job of providing a possible path to how we got here. There could be many other plausible paths to how we got here. I DONT CARE WHICH IS RIGHT!

To get to evolution you gotta figure out how this big rock got called Earth got here. I just don't understand, if ya don't care then why keep postin in this thread? ;)

[Blue]

We'd love to be in awe of the ultimate brain, and poke and prod it until we've learned everything we can from it. We just can't find it to do our poking and prodding.


"OUCH! Your poking and prodding me!" -GOD

[olevetonahill]

A remnant will be saved. In the war of Ezekial 38 and 39 God will show himself to the Jews again by destroying invading armies. Rapture and Tribulation. They will turn back to him. The temple will be rebuilt. the 2 prophets will preach at the temple and be killed. Christ will come back. The times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled and the millenial reign of Chist will begin.

so the 144,000?:cool:
Bro Ya didnt Say was JW :P

[Ike]

To get to evolution you gotta figure out how this big rock got called Earth got here. I just don't understand, if ya don't care then why keep postin in this thread? ;)

well, see most likely there was a big bang...


the framework of the big bang does a surprisingly good job of explaining a number of things that were observed. Where the bang came from? Well, when you get that far, you can just about make anything up. No way to know. At least, not yet.

[olevetonahill]

Nattie's ahellofa drug.

;)

aint it
:D

[Blue]

so the 144,000?:cool:
Bro Ya didnt Say was JW :P


Don't get me started. 12,000 Jews from each tribe called to Christ spreading the gospel DURING the Tribulation. Not the JWs.

[Ardmore_Sooner]

well, see most likely there was a big bang...


the framework of the big bang does a surprisingly good job of explaining a number of things that were observed. Where the bang came from? Well, when you get that far, you can just about make anything up. No way to know. At least, not yet.

Perhaps it was God? ;)

[olevetonahill]

Supposedly you have enough evidence by looking out your window or looking at how your body works to make the decision on whether or not he exists. Again I can't remember the exact verse but it talks about just that. There's more than enough evidence that you have no excuse.

I have enough eveidence By lookin out My winder that ther Is a Creator