Losing Faith

[Ike]

Perhaps it was God? ;)

Perhaps it was the collapse of another universe...

Perhaps it was the sudden expansion of one or more of the eleventy extra dimensions of string theory...


you can perhaps this one till you're blue in the face.

[olevetonahill]

"I am the way, the truth, and the life." Jesus ;)

John 8:12

Thats a Verse Of a Book of 66 ?
I want this truth your talkin . :P

[olevetonahill]

Vet get out of the Casino! Trying to keep things interesting here! ;)

Hell bro Im trying to keep up with the natty lol

[Ardmore_Sooner]

Perhaps it was the collapse of another universe...

Perhaps it was the sudden expansion of one or more of the eleventy extra dimensions of string theory...


you can perhaps this one till you're blue in the face.

You can try to explain where all these other universes come from til youre blue in the face. Just doens't make any sense where ANYTHING came from.

[Ardmore_Sooner]

Thats a Verse Of a Book of 66 ?
I want this truth your talkin . :P

Dude, I told you already! It's Jesus! Come on brother! :D

[olevetonahill]

Then where did it all come from?

Personally
Im Caugt between the Univeres Had a big Fart and bang we be Here orsome thing Created all this Chaos :confused:

[olevetonahill]

And thats your perogative(sp?). I'm surprised that scientists and the like are not completely in awe of the ultimate brain. We're all built different.

Thot we wuz all made In Gods Image ?
Make up ur Mind ?:D

[Blue]

Thot we wuz all made In Gods Image ?
Make up ur Mind ?:D

You know what I mean. Gifts and all. :D

[olevetonahill]

Why should I care where it came from? It's as plausible to me that the planet was seeded for life by aliens as it is that some magical being put us here, in his image. Evolutionary theory does a decent, if incomplete job of providing a possible path to how we got here. There could be many other plausible paths to how we got here. I DONT CARE WHICH IS RIGHT!

So why you Yellon ??????????????
God Could be a Germ from the Primordal ozze, A Spectacular being ,a Allein , or a Universal fart .:confused:

[olevetonahill]

To get to evolution you gotta figure out how this big rock got called Earth got here. I just don't understand, if ya don't care then why keep postin in this thread? ;)

nevar had a Kidney stone Huh ?

[Ike]

You can try to explain where all these other universes come from til youre blue in the face. Just doens't make any sense where ANYTHING came from.

But now if you try to put god in there to 'make sense' of where anything came from, you wind up relegating yourself to a "god of the gaps". Where god only comes around to fill in the gaps in our knowledge.

So it doesn't make complete sense yet? So? Does it need to?


There's a lot we still don't understand about the universe. A lot we haven't observed yet. Maybe by looking harder, or in more places, we'll find a way to make it make sense. Maybe there's always been something there, and our big bang was just part of that something. But to my mind, just saying it was god is cheating a bit. It's like saying "this hurts my brain, I don't want to think about it anymore"

I'm not saying it *can't* be god either. Just that thus far, I don't see any evidence that it *has* to be god.

[olevetonahill]

"OUCH! Your poking and prodding me!" -GOD

God Dont Cry
If hes that Tuff hed Just Bitch slap whoever !

[Blue]

God Dont Cry
If hes that Tuff hed Just Bitch slap whoever !

I beg to differ. We feel sadness, he feels sadness. And you know by reading the Bible, he bitch slaps at will.:D

[olevetonahill]

Perhaps it was God? ;)

so God Farted and Passed a Kidney Stone ?
No wonder this world Is in turmoil !:D

[Ardmore_Sooner]

But now if you try to put god in there to 'make sense' of where anything came from, you wind up relegating yourself to a "god of the gaps". Where god only comes around to fill in the gaps in our knowledge.

So it doesn't make complete sense yet? So? Does it need to?


There's a lot we still don't understand about the universe. A lot we haven't observed yet. Maybe by looking harder, or in more places, we'll find a way to make it make sense. Maybe there's always been something there, and our big bang was just part of that something. But to my mind, just saying it was god is cheating a bit. It's like saying "this hurts my brain, I don't want to think about it anymore"

I'm not saying it *can't* be god either. Just that thus far, I don't see any evidence that it *has* to be god.

Man for someone who doesn't care you seem to just keep on coming. ;)

I'm not trying to fill any "gaps" in. To me there are no "gaps" in where the Earth came from, where the planets came from, where the dinosaurs went, or anything that has to do with the history of this planet. It's all so simply. Without God, everything would just have magically appeared out of the blue! But I know that you will say the same thing about God too, so we will just forever be in a never ending loop I presume! :P

[olevetonahill]

I beg to differ. We feel sadness, he feels sadness. And you know by reading the Bible, he bitch slaps at will.:D

What Im saying
he aint gonna say OUCH
If hes tuff He/shes just slap the Poss outta whos ****in with Him /her :D

[Blue]

To get serious, he let people spit in his face, beat him, and crucify him. The things he'd do for us.

[olevetonahill]

Man for someone who doesn't care you seem to just keep on coming. ;)

I'm not trying to fill any "gaps" in. To me there are no "gaps" in where the Earth came from, where the planets came from, where the dinosaurs went, or anything that has to do with the history of this planet. It's all so simply. Without God, everything would just have magically appeared out of the blue! But I know that you will say the same thing about God too, so we will just forever be in a never ending loop I presume! :P

Bro your turning this Into a God, Or Nothing thing ! :mad:
your saying its Either Or Not
The original was a Faith ?
faith cannot Overcome Science , Science cannot Over come Faith
Now If Ya wanta talk Bible Im here, If Not Ill Put My books away :cool:

[olevetonahill]

To get serious, he let people spit in his face, beat him, and crucify him. The things he'd do for us.

And I respect your Faith !

[Collier11]

Why should I care where it came from?

Simple...because if you dont find out where it came from then you wont know where you are going and I would hate for you to find out where you are going without notice...Very unpleasant surprise in store if you dont do a little searching

[Collier11]

well, see most likely there was a big bang...


the framework of the big bang does a surprisingly good job of explaining a number of things that were observed. Where the bang came from? Well, when you get that far, you can just about make anything up. No way to know. At least, not yet.



there is always a way to explain away everything when you arent looking for answers in the right places

[Collier11]

Personally
Im Caugt between the Univeres Had a big Fart and bang we be Here orsome thing Created all this Chaos :confused:

you just had too much fiber and now your mind is wandering :D

[olevetonahill]

:D
Simple...because if you dont find out where it came from then you wont know where you are going and I would hate for you to find out where you are going without notice...Very unpleasant surprise in store if you dont do a little searching

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Im sorry Bro
But Like I said Im caught In the Middle .

[olevetonahill]

you just had too much fiber and now your mind is wandering :D

If Its Fiber , It aint My Mind thats wandering :eek:

[olevetonahill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7O81UZGWlY
Yall answer me this !

[Collier11]

If Its Fiber , It aint My Mind thats wandering :eek:

natty and fiber...yikes! :eek:

[olevetonahill]

natty and fiber...yikes! :eek:

Might Create a Hole nuther Universe :eek:

[Collier11]

Might Create a Hole nuther Universe :eek:

or a hole in that universe :D

[Collier11]

"Theyll be another child born to carry on"...Great Line! Off to bed for real this time, ill pick up in the mornin!

[olevetonahill]

"Theyll be another child born to carry on"...Great Line! Off to bed for real this time, ill pick up in the mornin!

All Im askin
:D ;)

[Sooner_Bob]

so you actively choose to believe in God? it's not something you feel?

I think for some people its a combination of the two . . . I could believe in God but feel one way. Feelings are what have caused a lot of the conflict within religion IMO.

[Sooner_Bob]

there are a 1000 people that have seen UFOs too...


And IMO the world would not end if they actually existed. We've built ships and have gone into space who's to say there's not someone else out there who has done the same?



just because some of the historical stuff in The Bible is historically verified doesn't mean that some dream John had about beasts and trumpets is the word of God

I choose to believe that it is.

[Sooner_Bob]

Well ****, if all that matters is that a bunch of people say they saw it, I guess that means that the guy on stage really DID cut that woman in half and put her back together again!

:rolleyes:

Believe what you want . . .

I know better than to get caught up in this stuff on here.

[Sooner_Bob]

I was saying the same thing. I would hate to get to heaven and be told, "Dude. I gave it all to you. You didn't even read it.":D

Then I recommend the Chronological Bible that is setup to be read in a year. I started it in Jan. 2007 and made it to August 2007 before our move, but haven't picked it back up again . . . I keep saying I'm going to start again, but haven't made the time. I could definitely tell a difference in my attitude when I was reading daily. It's amazing how that can help.

[olevetonahill]

Then I recommend the Chronological Bible that is setup to be read in a year. I started it in Jan. 2007 and made it to August 2007 before our move, but haven't picked it back up again . . . I keep saying I'm going to start again, but haven't made the time. I could definitely tell a difference in my attitude when I was reading daily. It's amazing how that can help.

Bros and Sisters
The 1st time I tried to Read the Bible . I got Lost in all those Begatins
Just Pick it up Like any other Book ( remember there are 66 of em here )
Read Gen. skip those begatins
I strongley Suggest you skip Rev. also
cause as Begiiners Yall aint gonna have a clue
Just sayin

[Sooner_Bob]

Bros and Sisters
The 1st time I tried to Read the Bible . I got Lost in all those Begatins
Just Pick it up Like any other Book ( remember there are 66 of em here )
Read Gen. skip those begatins
I strongley Suggest you skip Rev. also
cause as Begiiners Yall aint gonna have a clue
Just sayin


Not having a clue could lead them to ask questions and study more. I can't say that I've read the entire bible, but I have read quite a bit of it and still have a hard time decipherin' exactly how it applies to me today. Studying the word takes time . . . time that most of us aren't willing to take from one activity and give to reading the bible.

I read your post about how your life has gone and the things you've gone through . . . kudos to you for striving and making it through. I really hope that something happens one day to get you back on track and strengthens your belief in God.

[olevetonahill]

trust Me Bob I am on Track
What Im sayin Is The Bible Wasnt written In Chronlogical order
A nOOb should avoid all the Begattins
Cause the Bible Is Just gonna Back em up

[olevetonahill]

Stay away from the Begattins
Read the 4 Gospels ,
Then Start Over
Just sayin

[Sooner_Bob]

trust Me Bob I am on Track
What Im sayin Is The Bible Wasnt written In Chronlogical order
A nOOb should avoid all the Begattins
Cause the Bible Is Just gonna Back em up

Oh I know the way the books are laid out in the traditional bible they are not in order . . . but with the chronological bible they are in order.

And I agree that the begat stuff can be a little tedious.

[JohnnyMack]

Let's talk about Zoroastrianism as it relates to the Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity & Islam. That'll be fun.

[yermom]

I think for some people its a combination of the two . . . I could believe in God but feel one way. Feelings are what have caused a lot of the conflict within religion IMO.

i can accept that someone personally believes something. it's when they start talking in absolute truths that bothers me.

[sooner_born_1960]

But, is it really a belief if you don't beleive it absolutely.

[yermom]

well, that's the kinda thing that gets people killed

[C&CDean]

Let's talk about Zoroastrianism as it relates to the Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity & Islam. That'll be fun.

Let's not and say we didn't.

To me, faith is a personal thing. I've discussed it - ad nauseum - on these boards for years. If a person chooses (yes, it's a choice people just like it's a choice who/what/where you stick your filthy little pecker) to blow off God then they've made that choice and have to live and die with it.

As for me, I believe. Wholeheartedly. I've spent way too many mornings watching the sun rise in the woods and mountains to believe that **** just sprang up out of nowhere without some type of guiding hand. I've seen the delicate balance of nature doing it's thing in complete amazement; and know this **** ain't random. I've been vastly rewarded in this life, and am smart enough to know that a dumbass hillbilly like me couldn't do all this by himself. All I've done is believe, and when I run into problems I ask God for help, and thank Him every day for all the blessings in my life. Sometimes He works in ways that I don't understand, but it's very interesting that over the long haul, His wisdom pwns mine every single time.

I've watched people grow old without God in their lives. I've watched them grow old with God. The difference between the two is night and day. I've watched people die without God, and have watched them die with God. Again, a night and day difference.

And no, I do not support any organized religion, and can completely understand somebody rejecting God if all they know of Him is from a church house full of hypocrites. I spent the first 16 years of my life on a church pew being told how much I was gonna burn in hell - by people who were much bigger sinners than I. I've watched dozens of preachers and church leaders bite the dust in shame and disgrace. It's enough to discourage anyone from following God.

So, unlike many others who believe that you must have fellowship with other christians to be groovy with God, I feel that it's a very personal thing between you and Him. I believe you can grow very strong in your faith if you STFU and listen to what God is telling you. In a church house the noise from the idiots is so deafening that I can't hear God. I hear him loud and clear out on the ranch or in the mountains or on a lake or even tooling down the highway somewhere.

You can be a fully devoted follower of Jesus Christ without paying for a big preacher's new Escalade.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

One of the best church services I ever attended was at an indian church outside of Red Oak on one of the mountains. The church had no electricity and was about as big as my living room. The few of us there showed up early enough to watch the sunrise. I said a prayer thanking God for the beauty of his creation and we left because we didnt want our words to mess up the moment.

[Stoop Dawg]

But now if you try to put god in there to 'make sense' of where anything came from, you wind up relegating yourself to a "god of the gaps". Where god only comes around to fill in the gaps in our knowledge.

Just to be clear, humans have always used religion to explain the unknown. It's not just a Christian thing. Pretty much every civilization has had some form of religion. Is it simply a crutch to explain the unknown, or are we all drawn to some unknowable "truth"? In the end, that is the question. And there is no logical answer - there is only faith.

For my part, I simply cannot buy religion just to explain the origin of the universe. I'd rather say "I don't know" than just make up a story to explain it away. That's not to say that the creation story is "made up", I'm simply saying that the creation story is not a *reason* to make the leap to Christianity. I don't have to answer the question of the origin of the universe in order to refute religion. With infinite possibilities, there can be no "process of elimination" (i.e. the creation story is not "true" just because no other alternative has been proven).

[Stoop Dawg]

You can be a fully devoted follower of Jesus Christ without paying for a big preacher's new Escalade.

Blasphemy!!!

;)

[Sooner_Bob]

i can accept that someone personally believes something. it's when they start talking in absolute truths that bothers me.



It is pretty absolute. You're either a part of the body of Christ or not.

[MojoRisen]

Being part of it could make things more challeging in life these days. I don't consider it a new FAD- but choose to follow leaders of today that truely are doing good in the world when I loose a little heart. In reality they are pretty selfless about their service. I am not by any means at a Jedi level of Christianity but have seen enough in my own adversity in life to know that it does exist- with out question to me- so it is tough to choose any other alternative that may make "my" business career or social life easier...

Mother Teresa is kind of interesting - I wonder why she didn't contract leprosy.

[crawfish]

Craw, I respect your point of view....However, this isn't something thats going to convince a non-believer...especially if they read the gay foreigner thread, where Boarder I believe, gave a very nice refutation of the "why would they choose that?!?" argument.

BUT IT MIGHT MAKE THEM GO HMMMMM!!!!!

;)

I don't recall the gay foreigner thread, and I'm afraid to search for it... :O

[yermom]

It is pretty absolute. You're either a part of the body of Christ or not.

so why does everyone love Isreal so much?

[Frozen Sooner]

people who were much bigger sinners than I.

Anyone gonna take a swing at this?

[BigRedJed]

I already got my "****ing off Dean" infraction for today, thanks.

[crawfish]

But now if you try to put god in there to 'make sense' of where anything came from, you wind up relegating yourself to a "god of the gaps". Where god only comes around to fill in the gaps in our knowledge.

So it doesn't make complete sense yet? So? Does it need to?


There's a lot we still don't understand about the universe. A lot we haven't observed yet. Maybe by looking harder, or in more places, we'll find a way to make it make sense. Maybe there's always been something there, and our big bang was just part of that something. But to my mind, just saying it was god is cheating a bit. It's like saying "this hurts my brain, I don't want to think about it anymore"

I'm not saying it *can't* be god either. Just that thus far, I don't see any evidence that it *has* to be god.

I'd say that we still know only a tiny fraction of what can be known, and we can't be absolutely sure of some of the things we do know. We have such a tiny perspective on a unversal scale; it's a little arrogant to think we can unlock the secrets of the universe from our tiny little speck of a planet.

Which isn't to say we shouldn't try. I take two verses: from Genesis 1:28, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.". There is little doubt that, to the ancients, "earth" meant the land, and "heaven" meant the skies, but to them, those terms would also imply earth as "the domain of man" and the heavens as "the domain of God". Knowing what we do now, it's not hard to decouple the literal meanings to imply that we have license for exploration and discovery of the universe around us.

I also look at Psalms 19:1, which says "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.". We can actually learn more of God by learning more about the natural world around us!

To try and say "goddidit" as an excuse to demean or discredit science is not only bad for science, but contrary to God's word. Our God is the god of both the natural and supernatural; in reality, by assuming we can understand the inner workings of the universe, we are in fact discovering God's methods for creation. By trying to force God's "supernatural" hand at some point in the process, we may be subverting ourselves if or when we find a natural process that is responsible, because either way is His way.

I don't expect anybody to gain faith over this. Every atheist/nonbeliever I know who has become Christian has done so for reasons other than the rational; they found something lacking in their lives that Christianity could fill. They were motivated by the unsought-for kindness of Christians when they were in need. They felt God work in their lives in some intangible way. I pray that all of you will find that someday, but until then I can only try and be the type of Christian that demonstrates what a life in Christ can mean.

[crawfish]

i can accept that someone personally believes something. it's when they start talking in absolute truths that bothers me.

Somebody told me this" "There is no god. I can't believe, in this day and age, that people believe in fairy tales with no basis in reality".

He got mad when I suggested that this was the same sort of absolutist belief that he was railing against. :)

[yermom]

i can agree with that

[shaun4411]

you know, the big bang wouldnt be a generally accepted theory if there wasnt consistent evidence supporting it. i.e. tracked universal expanse by redshift observations and the relation of distance and recession velocity.

[Stoop Dawg]

I don't expect anybody to gain faith over this. Every atheist/nonbeliever I know who has become Christian has done so for reasons other than the rational; they found something lacking in their lives that Christianity could fill. They were motivated by the unsought-for kindness of Christians when they were in need. They felt God work in their lives in some intangible way. I pray that all of you will find that someday, but until then I can only try and be the type of Christian that demonstrates what a life in Christ can mean.

Crawfish is smart.

Religion is not rational, and I'm not exactly sure why so many people insist on attempting to make it rational. I suppose they are like Blue, who thinks that if you believe in something irrational you somehow feel less educated or degraded. There is really no reason to feel "be-downgraded" [hairGel] for believing in something irrational, and no reason to argue that it *is* rational when it clearly is not. You can be "smart" and a Christian, just like you can be "smart" and believe in the "Big Bang" (with no idea of how the Big Bang actually came to be). We all believe in irrational things. Christianity just doesn't happen to be one of them for me.

[Sooner_Bob]

so why does everyone love Isreal so much?

You got me . . . I've got enough to worry about with my own salvation. :D

[MojoRisen]

Jerusalem or Isreal?

They seem to be reasonable when we told them not to do anything in retaliation back in the first gulf war? Do you think Iran would do the same? I suspect we are on much better diplomatic terms with them. I hate to even rehash why we support them - many could say don't and they would support themselves.

They seem to be more legit in the International space than some of the other Mid-Eastern Nations.

If we want peace and they are reasonable - I would support them. If we didn't interfere there somewhat while there are peace talks - shiate could get ugly real fast-Globally.

Would you support a predictable Isreali or a Radical Muslim who is agressive outside their borders? At least isreal would wear uniforms if they had any type of conflict. More than I can say about the other nations over there in the small pond. Perhaps they can get better at it soon

Hey my Faith and International Security aren't completely rational- but I would prefer death in small numbers than global Cahoas any day of the week.

Just go visit some of the memorials and realize what the international community has invested in Democracy.

Nukes and Airfoce are not going away - in my opinion. Even einstien I believe was a spiritual dude.

[C&CDean]

so why does everyone love Isreal so much?

God's chosen people. Good enough for me.

Besides, if I'm in a pinch, I can't think of anybody else I want having my back than Israel. They simply do not **** around.

[Vaevictis]

:rolleyes:

Believe what you want . . .

I know better than to get caught up in this stuff on here.

:rolleyes:

It has nothing to do with what I believe. You asked why historians are hesitant to take the word of eyewitnesses in the case of Jesus when they're willing to take the word of an equal number of eyewitnesses in other cases.

It's simple: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It's not so much of a stretch to believe eyewitness reports of a tsunami, for example -- those aren't exactly acts of God (divine intervention wise, anyway). Raising people from the dead, walking on water, etc, well, those are claims of an entirely different order.

Seriously, do you think that Christianity/Judaism are the only religious tradition that claims to have had many eyewitnesses to a "miracle?" Trust me, you do NOT want to be using that as the burden of proof level for which religions are true.

[TUSooner]

***I don't expect anybody to gain faith over this. Every atheist/nonbeliever I know who has become Christian has done so for reasons other than the rational; they found something lacking in their lives that Christianity could fill. They were motivated by the unsought-for kindness of Christians when they were in need. They felt God work in their lives in some intangible way. I pray that all of you will find that someday, but until then I can only try and be the type of Christian that demonstrates what a life in Christ can mean.

I saw this today, written by an Irish Jesuit named Frank Doyle:

"Those who take the Gospel seriously and try to live according to its vision have all the confirmation they need that it is the recipe for a happy and fulfilled life. "

[TUSooner]

God's chosen people. Good enough for me.

Besides, if I'm in a pinch, I can't think of anybody else I want having my back than Israel. They simply do not **** around.

In more secular terms, Israel is a liberal western-style democracy (not THAT kind of "liberal," Rush's Parrot!). Face it, by comparison, most of the Mid-Eastern Muslim world looks like a bunch of angry, ignornant, poor people living in the 1200s under oppressive governments and religious demagogues and with no desire or inclination to have a liberal western democracy. (Except maybe most Turks). In fact, you can't help but get the idea that most Arabs or Mid-East Muslims HATE the very idea of a liberal western democracy. As a proud adherent of Western Civilization, I'd take living in Israel over living in any Arab/Muslim country. If the West ever sold Israel out it would make Munich in 1938 look like an act of nobility.

[JohnnyMack]

In more secular terms, Israel is a liberal western-style democracy (not THAT kind of "liberal," Rush's Parrot!). Face it, by comparison, most of the Mid-Eastern Muslim world looks like a bunch of angry, ignornant, poor people living in the 1200s under oppressive governments and religious demagogues and with no desire or inclination to have a liberal western democracy. (Except maybe most Turks). In fact, you can't help but get the idea that most Arabs or Mid-East Muslims HATE the very idea of a liberal western democracy. As a proud adherent of Western Civilization, I'd take living in Israel over living in any Arab/Muslim country. If the West ever sold Israel out it would make Munich in 1938 look like an act of nobility.

So by that argument I take it you opposed the invasion of Iraq and our subsequent efforts at installing a democracy?

[shaun4411]

why install a democracy in a region that doesnt really want it? we dont want their 8th century style of government, they dont want ours. fine.

[TUSooner]

So by that argument I take it you opposed the invasion of Iraq and our subsequent efforts at installing a democracy?

Where did that conclusion come from? I don't see any liberal middle-eastern democracies outside of Israel at present; but why would I oppose a liberal democracy when I just praised them?

But a few disjointed opinions:

*I don't think invading Iraq was smart or necessary.
*I'm not sure what we do there now but press on as long as there is a chance of success.
*Can we "install" a democracy where religious demagogues hold sway over many angry people with guns and bombs? I dunno.
*"Democracy" itself is crapola if the people are angry & ignorant haters. That's why I say "liberal democracy"
*To try similarly to "install" liberal democracies in every dark corner of the globe would be wasteful, to say the least.
*This discussion belongs in another thread, or maybe no thread, since it's been done to death over the years.

[MojoRisen]

We screwed up on phase 4 - The military leaders/Generals and Rumsfeld/DOD not working well enough with Powell State Department. Imagine this and this may be a bad comparison but figure- LA RIOTS what if the police did not stop it in time and Chicago got involved and the gangs joined up because they thought they would win and they could steal anything they wanted and run the city. Like Escape from LA the movie or something and the people who lived in LA said damn I guess we better fight who has the safest neighborhood and they fought each other over that....

If we had continued to have momentum early we probably could have shortened this conflict. I think the majority of Iraqi's would welcome freedom if they felt secure.

More troops early would have done well - but we may have lost twice as many people. Troops now are much more experienced and briefed on what the plan is and the mission along with being supported in numbers not to exhaustion? I am pretty sure we are starting to win - perhaps we can all agree on that. if you believe western style democracy in the mid east would be progress for National Security. And now that Iran maybe scared to quit just giving them weapons or face an air campain with out groundforce action. Just touch them up a little bit they will be PO'ed anyway. Just a little touch up- but hey that may be rational - and not to do with Faith

Keep the spirits up though and United on this front- anything else is a waste if we can win....

[Sooner_Bob]

:rolleyes:

It has nothing to do with what I believe.



Bull. You either believe or you don't.




You asked why historians are hesitant to take the word of eyewitnesses in the case of Jesus when they're willing to take the word of an equal number of eyewitnesses in other cases.

It's simple: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It's not so much of a stretch to believe eyewitness reports of a tsunami, for example -- those aren't exactly acts of God (divine intervention wise, anyway). Raising people from the dead, walking on water, etc, well, those are claims of an entirely different order.


Some historical events are never questioned based on many things. Eyewitness accounts (written statements, commentaries, etc.) are often used to validate them. However, when similar evidence is available, but not easily believable to some it is written off as a fairytale.



Seriously, do you think that Christianity/Judaism are the only religious tradition that claims to have had many eyewitnesses to a "miracle?" Trust me, you do NOT want to be using that as the burden of proof level for which religions are true.

No. I'm not that naive believe that Christianity is the only belief system in the world.

I'm not using anything as the sole burden of proof. It wouldn't matter what happened for some of you. Jesus Christ himself could show up and perform miracle after miracle and he'd be looked at like he was Chriss Angel or something.

All I'm saying is that many historical events are given credence simply based on written accounts that are many years old. Why not lend credence to historical religious events in the same manner? Is it too hard to admit that there might have actually been a person named Jesus who was the Son of God?

[shaun4411]

All I'm saying is that many historical events are given credence simply based on written accounts that are many years old. Why not lend credence to historical religious events in the same manner? Is it too hard to admit that there might have actually been a person named Jesus who was the Son of God?

is it too hard to admit that there might have actually been a person named santa claus who delivered toys to children all over the world in one night?

[Vaevictis]

Bull. You either believe or you don't.

Why historians are hesitant to endorse the Bible's account without qualification has absolutely nothing to do with whether I believe or don't.


Is it too hard to admit that there might have actually been a person named Jesus...

Pretty widely accepted.


... who was the Son of God?

Extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence, from a historian's point of view.

[crawfish]

is it too hard to admit that there might have actually been a person named santa claus who delivered toys to children all over the world in one night?

I bet you ended up with switches and coal every year.

[Sooner_Bob]

is it too hard to admit that there might have actually been a person named santa claus who delivered toys to children all over the world in one night?

I see 100's of Santa's every year. Heck I are one.

[Sooner_Bob]

Are those of you who have chosen not to "believe" in a greater power afraid to admit that there could be something out there bigger than man? Do you think you're too intelligent to believe in those "religious fairytales"? And that if you believed you'd be looked upon as some ignorant, judgmental whackjob?

[shaun4411]

Are those of you who have chosen not to "believe" in a greater power afraid to admit that there could be something out there bigger than man? Do you think you're too intelligent to believe in those "religious fairytales"? And that if you believed you'd be looked upon as some ignorant, judgmental whackjob?

no, not at all. i just dont believe it is feasible. i honestly dont believe in it. why cant you accept that at face value? why cant you admit that WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) is possible? that its possible everything you ever thought was true indeed isnt?

all day long christians try to tell you their side of the story and ask you to at least consider it. all the while saying they pray i find the truth before i die and go to hell. i obviously feel this way because i want to, and that i feel its right. the idea of going to hell doesnt matter or register. i am as firm in my belief as you are yours, yet i dont tell you to take 5 mins out of your day to consider youre wrong and that im right. if i took 5 mins to consider each religion everyday, i wouldnt have time to do all the agnostic things we love to do, like go convincing christians muslims and jews that the joke is on them and that eventually the worms will will have the last laugh when they burrow through your coffin.

[Collier11]

no, not at all. i just dont believe it is feasible. i honestly dont believe in it. why cant you accept that at face value? why cant you admit that WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) is possible? that its possible everything you ever thought was true indeed isnt?

all day long christians try to tell you their side of the story and ask you to at least consider it. all the while saying they pray i find the truth before i die and go to hell. i obviously feel this way because i want to, and that i feel its right. the idea of going to hell doesnt matter or register. i am as firm in my belief as you are yours, yet i dont tell you to take 5 mins out of your day to consider youre wrong and that im right. if i took 5 mins to consider each religion everyday, i wouldnt have time to do all the agnostic things we love to do, like go convincing christians muslims and jews that the joke is on them and that eventually the worms will will have the last laugh when they burrow through your coffin.

The reason being that asking you to consider our beliefs could save your soul in our opinion based on the teaching of Christ, you asking us to consider your beliefs does nothing for us.

Some people take it personal and it comes off wrong, I myself try to approach it less combative because how am I going to convince you to save your soul if I am insulting you or telling you how stupid you are.

[JohnnyMack]

Are those of you who have chosen not to "believe" in a greater power afraid to admit that there could be something out there bigger than man? Do you think you're too intelligent to believe in those "religious fairytales"? And that if you believed you'd be looked upon as some ignorant, judgmental whackjob?

It's not that I think there definitely isn't something out there, as much as it is incredibly arrogant for one religion that encompasses one part of the earth and has only done so for 2,000 or so years of what I believe to be a long existence of said earth to consider itself the end-all, be-all way, truth and light. I simply can't reconcile with the notion that the Christian god somehow chose to reveal himself in the manner in which he did. Forget all the other people on this globe that aren't Christians (and there are a lot) for a minute and let's talk about the countless millions of people who lived on this earth before the notion of Christianity was ever even brought into play. Ancient Greeks, Chinese, Babylonians and Egyptians all off the top of my head never heard the word of the Christian God. Incas, Aztecs, Native Americans and the early Hindus. I mean I could name off culture after culture that never came in contact with anything close to Christianity.

I think we live in culture in which Christianity is the predominate religion, therefore most people follow some sect of it and believe it to be true. But Bob, if you were born in Kyoto in 1254, you wouldn't be studying the Bible and following the teachings of Jesus. You follow what has been ingrained in our culture.

I do not think that the message put forth by Christianity is a bad one in terms of the ten commandments and the teachings of Jesus. In fact I think much of what Jesus spoke about (notice I'm accepting a man named Jesus lived and was a kind and noble teacher) are things that humanity should aspire towards. I just don't think that if I don't follow it to the letter that I'm going to burn in the firey pits of hell. I think the Bible is one huge metaphor based on the actual lives of a certain group of people. I think they were a well intentioned bunch that was trying to offer up hope and a "finish line" of sorts to a culture that was dominated by Judaism and didn't really offer them the answers they sought. I believe Jesus is the son of God. I also believe I am the son of God. That you are the son of God. My definition of God isn't the "great white father" than the Christian church has tried to use, more the earth and humanity itself. We are all children of God and all have a responsibility to treat our "Father" with dignity and respect.

I take the Bible of the Christian faith as one giant metaphor that has terrific teachings and can be a powerful tool in helping shape an individual's life. Most religious texts do.

[shaun4411]

The reason being that asking you to consider our beliefs could save your soul in our opinion based on the teaching of Christ, you asking us to consider your beliefs does nothing for us.

Some people take it personal and it comes off wrong, I myself try to approach it less combative because how am I going to convince you to save your soul if I am insulting you or telling you how stupid you are.

i can appreciate the sentiment. but will a muslim telling you how many virgins youre going to meet in paradise change your mind? just cause the grass appears to be greener doesnt mean i am going for better pastures. i am more interested in the truth (which i think i already know). after careful evaluation and consideration and studies of a multitude of worldviews, it is the one i have now that makes the most sense and feels most right to me. i cant be convinced otherwise because i 100% wholeheartedly and honestly believe what i know to be true. even considering a change of heart would mean i have doubt in how i believe. the same goes for you. you dont have doubt, and neither do i.

[Collier11]

You dont see any harm in trusting to be self sufficient as opposed to exploring the possibility of Heaven and Hell? I would think that the potential outcome would atleast cause you to question your beliefs some...no?

[yermom]

yay!

http://www.funtasticllc.com/FunGoRound.jpg

[shaun4411]

You dont see any harm in trusting to be self sufficient as opposed to exploring the possibility of Heaven and Hell? I would think that the potential outcome would atleast cause you to question your beliefs some...no?

since you dont know me personally, i understand that you dont really understand my thought process or how i go about making decisions in my life. take my word for it that i have made wide considerations of all sorts of possibilities before fully subscribing to what i believe now. ive been to that point in my life of questioning my beliefs. i even blogged about it. remember, my best friend preaches at a pentecostal church--or did. at any rate, i promised that i would try. i did, and that soul-searching led me to where i am today.

you see me knowing what i believe probably in the same way i see someone who likes ford, or osu. you scratch your head at me dont you? well, i scratch my head at them. you just dont get it, neither do i.

tell me c11, how is it possible that two people can see the exact same thing and come to two completely seperate conclusions?

[Collier11]

Lack of Faith

[shaun4411]

good enough for me. i dont need to go out of my way to think there is something else added to the equation. hasnt led me astray yet.

[Blue]

Crawfish is smart.

Religion is not rational, and I'm not exactly sure why so many people insist on attempting to make it rational. I suppose they are like Blue, who thinks that if you believe in something irrational you somehow feel less educated or degraded. There is really no reason to feel "be-downgraded" [hairGel] for believing in something irrational, and no reason to argue that it *is* rational when it clearly is not. You can be "smart" and a Christian, just like you can be "smart" and believe in the "Big Bang" (with no idea of how the Big Bang actually came to be). We all believe in irrational things. Christianity just doesn't happen to be one of them for me.


It makes sense to me, therefore it is rational in my eyes. I don't feel uneducated or degraded. Quit twisting my words.
Thanks

[Cam]

Wow, I think this is by far the most civil religious thread I've ever seen on here. Well done by all.

IMO, this is and always will be a compelling debate. I can see both sides to the arguments for believer/non-believer.

I'm with Dean in that I think your faith is a personal thing that doesn't have to be shared with others. My wife takes the kids to Church every Sunday. Based on my own experiences, I prefer not to attend. It no way means I'm a non-believer, just that I choose to do it differently than most.

Last year, 3 gentlemen came to our door unsolicited, extolling their church and looking for new patrons. When I explained that the rest of my family already regularly attends a church, he asked if I attend or not. When I told him that I prefer not to, his immediate response was "Aren't you concerned about where you're going when you die?". I told him thanks for coming by and explained that his immediate judgmental reaction ensured that we would not attend his church.

I would bet that we've all dealt with people like this in the past. Knee jerk reactions without all the information will get you nowhere fast.

As far as the historical accuracy of The Bible goes, I have one fundamental problem that I can't get past. This collection of books was written thousands of years ago in a lost language. It has then been translated 100's, perhaps 1,000's of times, yet many believe which ever version they use to be literal and 100% accurate. I have serious doubts that we could start a two sentence story on one end of the tailgate and have it even come close to the original at the other end. Why is it so improbable that parts of The Bible couldn't have been miss-interpreted?

[BigRedJed]

Wow, I think this is by far the most civil religious thread I've ever seen on here. Well done by all...
This is the answer you were looking for in your Cliff's Notes thread.

[crawfish]

As far as the historical accuracy of The Bible goes, I have one fundamental problem that I can't get past. This collection of books was written thousands of years ago in a lost language. It has then been translated 100's, perhaps 1,000's of times, yet many believe which ever version they use to be literal and 100% accurate. I have serious doubts that we could start a two sentence story on one end of the tailgate and have it even come close to the original at the other end. Why is it so improbable that parts of The Bible couldn't have been miss-interpreted?

You've heard of the dead sea scrolls, found in 1947? Take Daniel for example. The earliest texts we had before finding them were dated in the 10th century AD. The copies found dated at around 160 BC. That's over 1100 years of copies of copies of copies of copies, with no printing press or machinery involved. You'd expect the discrepancies to be huge. But the integrity of the text is nothing but incredible. I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but the truth is that the only real differences are minor word changes (none of which altered the meaning of the text), and relatively few at that.

That is impressive, I don't care who you are.

[Blue]

Also if you believe it's divinely inspired you more than likely would assume its divinely preserved.

[shaun4411]

This is the answer you were looking for in your Cliff's Notes thread.

the quar'an hasnt changed a word (in its native language) since it's inception. this is preserved by the fact that their scholars actually memorize the entire text, word for word, and recite it to ensure that future generations will have "the word" as it was intended.

[shaun4411]

Lack of Faith

i think where i differ is that i am not looking for something to have faith in. i am already content where things are now. ive accepted it. i dont need the security blanket that god offers.

[colleyvillesooner]

yay!

http://www.funtasticllc.com/FunGoRound.jpg

HEY! that's my job! ;)

[Cam]

You've heard of the dead sea scrolls, found in 1947? Take Daniel for example. The earliest texts we had before finding them were dated in the 10th century AD. The copies found dated at around 160 BC. That's over 1100 years of copies of copies of copies of copies, with no printing press or machinery involved. You'd expect the discrepancies to be huge. But the integrity of the text is nothing but incredible. I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but the truth is that the only real differences are minor word changes (none of which altered the meaning of the text), and relatively few at that.

That is impressive, I don't care who you are.

You're right, it is impressive.

Minor word changes could have significant impact. Example, is/isn't. Not much of a change in words, but complete 180 in meaning. It would only take one scholar missing something in the original text for it to happen. People make mistakes, educated and non-educated alike. I'm not saying that's the type of minor word changes that are present, just sayin.


Also if you believe it's divinely inspired you more than likely would assume its divinely preserved.

Then it's back to belief versus absolute proof. It's a circular argument that really ends up nowhere and changes nobody's mind.

My faith's reaffirmed every time I look my children. Can't really put it into words why, but it is.

[crawfish]

You're right, it is impressive.

Minor word changes could have significant impact. Example, is/isn't. Not much of a change in words, but complete 180 in meaning. It would only take one scholar missing something in the original text for it to happen. People make mistakes, educated and non-educated alike. I'm not saying that's the type of minor word changes that are present, just sayin.

The thing is, we have scholars who can tell us what the changes mean and how they alter the meaning; and they tell us it doesn't.

Again, I know that this won't give anybody faith. But if you have faith, it is evidence that strengthens it.

[Frozen Sooner]

Are those of you who have chosen not to "believe" in a greater power afraid to admit that there could be something out there bigger than man? Do you think you're too intelligent to believe in those "religious fairytales"? And that if you believed you'd be looked upon as some ignorant, judgmental whackjob?

Wow, that's quite insulting and dismissive.

I doubt that you meant it that way, so I'm not offended, but if you don't want people to act the same way towards you, I'd stay away from that particular line of attack.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

OK, here's the deal. My dad's family is Church of Christ and my mom's is Baptist. I was raised Church of Christ. My first wife is Jewish and my second and current wife is Catholic. We are raising our kids Catholic.

With this protestant-jewish-catholic triangulated experience I can say with confidence that they are all, at one level, a crock. When you get down to the nitty-gritty belief, one has to wonder how educated people buy into it.

At another level, it's pretty cool. We went to Easter mass last Sunday at Old St. Mary's in Chinatown in San Francisco. An interesting mix of Irish and Chinese at this particular church. The elaborate ritual played out of the priests, the deacon, alter boys and girls, the choir, etc, is fascinating.

Same thing can be said for a bar mitzvah.

And the role of charity is surely to be admired.

[Blue]

Well I'm convinced. If it's such a crock, why do you go?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Well I'm convinced. If it's such a crock, why do you go?

It's important to my wife.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. People are free to believe what they want. The one who started the thread was asking what we thought.

[Fraggle145]

The reason being that asking you to consider our beliefs could save your soul in our opinion based on the teaching of Christ, you asking us to consider your beliefs does nothing for us.

Some people take it personal and it comes off wrong, I myself try to approach it less combative because how am I going to convince you to save your soul if I am insulting you or telling you how stupid you are.

That is Pascal's wager again...

The response I have to this is: If we dont have a soul what are you trying to save? I could just as easily say the reason i ask you to consider that there isnt a god is that in my opinion it is expends your time and energy and my time and energy that could be spent on making our lives more fulfilling in other ways. What if we dont need/want convincing? Shouldnt we be allowed make choices based on our interpretation of the available information?

I am not trying to attack your beliefs; believe what you want. Sometimes i just wish the same courtesy would be extended without having to say "I am praying for you." The reason why this is insulting is because it basically attempts to end the discussion of belief by stating "we agree to disagree, but i am still right."

I grew up Catholic in Oklahoma therefore I also had fundamentalist christianity shoved down my throat and after extensive thought and investigation into the subject both on the religious and scientific ends I have arrived at the following conclusion:

We havent figured it out yet... I accept life arriving out of the primordial soup and evolution as to how it diverged. However, i accept this because after rigorous testing it hasnt been disproven. If it is disproven so be it then I will deductively accept whatever disproves it. As for if there is a god, how the universe arrived and where the primordial soup came from... I agree with Ike I am interested in figuring it out.

[Sooner_Bob]

Wow, that's quite insulting and dismissive.

I doubt that you meant it that way, so I'm not offended, but if you don't want people to act the same way towards you, I'd stay away from that particular line of attack.

You don't think that's a legitimate question?

Take it however you want, but know if I wanted to offend I would've done a much better job. I feel that some folks on here already act that same way towards those of us who believe. That we're not on par with their "I know what's right for me, I do what feels right for me attitude" so we're to be dismissed because we believe in the one true God.

That's exactly how I take a lot of what some folks post in these religious discussions.

[MojoRisen]

I watched a show on the Arch of the Covenant last night, I know the program doesn't have a 10K but they made the cliam that nothing in documented history would have given pretext to Moses 10 commandments.

That it must have been a pretty fresh idea- for those non believers and for the one's that accepted that it came from god it did a lot for there Nation.

Frankly - I work and hang out with all diferent types of people out here in the melting pot -

I find a lot of people/friends claiming bible bashing and the like - when they choose not to listen to that kind of stuff. It is absolutely important to know that it is wrong to say someone is going to hell because they do not believe or practice a certain faith. If one denomination is claiming this, careful as a lot of people were offended and it is pretty much got anti feelings for anything christ because of it.

I think there were times in our society that were arsse backwards and likely a big step back to how things were even tought 2000 years ago from a scholarly stand point. I have had my run in with some nuns for sure and a couple of priest that I thought were arses. I have also met many many many more that were damn good people and do not do the proverbial BASH with the bible.

Most people do understand that they have to really develop a personal relationship with God first - before they can begin to try and study what has transgressed throughout history about christianity or other religions.

Jesiut philosophy - St Ignatius was the clincher for me. Those folks can teach some theology and openly debate it.

[C&CDean]

Where believers - AND - non-believers trip themselves up is when they say:

I know exactly what's going down here.

I've seen a couple people from each camp stating this bull****.

No man knows. If you honestly think you do, you are an arrogant fool. We're dealing with stuff far beyond the capabilities of the pathetic human mind. All you geniuses who think you've got it down are full of horse****.

We all are compelled to search/want to know, but until we die, or the Christ returns, or Allah slays all us infidels, or the cows take over the world, or there's a fat man statue on every corner, or we're all bowing before a 6-armed purple dude, we won't ever know.

[MojoRisen]

I had a chance to get relatively close with Oscar Robertson over the years - he was a great Basketball Player... He suffered through some dificult times in the late 50s early 60s - being the best basketball player in the world at the time and not even being able to stay at the same hotel as the rest of the team and ridding on a bus that was stopped buy hooded dudes.

His quote and he uses it often is " We all got a date" " we all got a date"

meaning we will certainly at some point meet our maker and certainly will die one day .... I can respect that

[Stoop Dawg]

You don't think that's a legitimate question?

No. Especially since you targetted the question to the general audience of "non-believers" and I (being a non-believer) had answered you question not more than 1 page earlier.

[Stoop Dawg]

Where believers - AND - non-believers trip themselves up is when they say:

I know exactly what's going down here.

I've seen a couple people from each camp stating this bull****.

No man knows. If you honestly think you do, you are an arrogant fool. We're dealing with stuff far beyond the capabilities of the pathetic human mind. All you geniuses who think you've got it down are full of horse****.

We all are compelled to search/want to know, but until we die, or the Christ returns, or Allah slays all us infidels, or the cows take over the world, or there's a fat man statue on every corner, or we're all bowing before a 6-armed purple dude, we won't ever know.


Spot on.

[BigRedJed]

Where believers - AND - non-believers trip themselves up is when they say:

I know exactly what's going down here.

I've seen a couple people from each camp stating this bull****.

No man knows. If you honestly think you do, you are an arrogant fool. We're dealing with stuff far beyond the capabilities of the pathetic human mind. All you geniuses who think you've got it down are full of horse****.

We all are compelled to search/want to know, but until we die, or the Christ returns, or Allah slays all us infidels, or the cows take over the world, or there's a fat man statue on every corner, or we're all bowing before a 6-armed purple dude, we won't ever know.
Man, I wish I would have made this post 16 or 17 pages ago. Leave it to Dean. He has it exactly right. The best you can do is believe what you believe after honest, throrough investigation, then do your best to live your life to the highest standard of the moral code set out therein. At the same time, recognize the right of others to do the same.

If everyone in the world lived their life this way, there would never be another war.

[BigRedJed]

the quar'an hasnt changed a word (in its native language) since it's inception. this is preserved by the fact that their scholars actually memorize the entire text, word for word, and recite it to ensure that future generations will have "the word" as it was intended.
WTF does this have to do with my post (which you quoted) where I told Cam that his Cliff's Notes thread question was answered by the civility of this thread?

:confused:

[Fraggle145]

Where believers - AND - non-believers trip themselves up is when they say:

I know exactly what's going down here.

I've seen a couple people from each camp stating this bull****.

No man knows. If you honestly think you do, you are an arrogant fool. We're dealing with stuff far beyond the capabilities of the pathetic human mind. All you geniuses who think you've got it down are full of horse****.

We all are compelled to search/want to know, but until we die, or the Christ returns, or Allah slays all us infidels, or the cows take over the world, or there's a fat man statue on every corner, or we're all bowing before a 6-armed purple dude, we won't ever know.

Bingo.

[TUSooner]

What Dean said
What gripes me about so many of my fellow Christians (among others) is the "You doubt, you die!" mentality. The bottom line for me - and I think for most thoughtful religious folk of any stripe - is that we'd all better be nice and humble and show mercy and do justice, because "the measure you give is the measure you shall receive" whether it's on Judgment Day, through Karma, by History, in the unnamable scheme of things, or "just because."

[Taxman71]

Where believers - AND - non-believers trip themselves up is when they say:

I know exactly what's going down here.

I've seen a couple people from each camp stating this bull****.

No man knows. If you honestly think you do, you are an arrogant fool. We're dealing with stuff far beyond the capabilities of the pathetic human mind. All you geniuses who think you've got it down are full of horse****.

We all are compelled to search/want to know, but until we die, or the Christ returns, or Allah slays all us infidels, or the cows take over the world, or there's a fat man statue on every corner, or we're all bowing before a 6-armed purple dude, we won't ever know.

Good post. Stated another way, our worldly minds are incapable of comprehending non-worldly issues, such as the existence of God, creation of the universe, our own free will, purpose of life, etc. (Kind of like Rip Torn talking to Albert Brooks in Defending Your Life). However, we have been provided with enough information to get us through life on earth.


Also, I have seen many in this thread turned off church or religeon b/c of the attitudes of hypocritical and/or self-righteous people. Don't let them prevent you from going to church/believing, etc., just find another place better suited to you. There are churches out there where these type of people do not prevail.

[Collier11]

That is Pascal's wager again...

The response I have to this is: If we dont have a soul what are you trying to save? I could just as easily say the reason i ask you to consider that there isnt a god is that in my opinion it is expends your time and energy and my time and energy that could be spent on making our lives more fulfilling in other ways. What if we dont need/want convincing? Shouldnt we be allowed make choices based on our interpretation of the available information?

I am not trying to attack your beliefs; believe what you want. Sometimes i just wish the same courtesy would be extended without having to say "I am praying for you." The reason why this is insulting is because it basically attempts to end the discussion of belief by stating "we agree to disagree, but i am still right."

I grew up Catholic in Oklahoma therefore I also had fundamentalist christianity shoved down my throat and after extensive thought and investigation into the subject both on the religious and scientific ends I have arrived at the following conclusion:

We havent figured it out yet... I accept life arriving out of the primordial soup and evolution as to how it diverged. However, i accept this because after rigorous testing it hasnt been disproven. If it is disproven so be it then I will deductively accept whatever disproves it. As for if there is a god, how the universe arrived and where the primordial soup came from... I agree with Ike I am interested in figuring it out.

You're absolutely allowed to have your own beliefs, I am not one of those who attacks you with my beliefs but non-believers must understand that we see it as our responsibility as believers based on the word of God to at least try to get you to listen. If you choose not to that is something I will respect. The problem is that you have some people on my side who don't know how to handle rejection or leaving people alone when they said they don't want to listen, I try to not be that person. In this instance I gave it a shot, you responded that you weren't interested and that is all I can do unless you come back at some point and ask for more info.

[Frozen Sooner]

You don't think that's a legitimate question?


No, I don't. Generally, when someone phrases questions like that, they think they already know the answer and their purpose is rhetoric, not discussion.

[C&CDean]

You're absolutely allowed to have your own beliefs, I am not one of those who attacks you with my beliefs but non-believers must understand that we see it as our responsibility as believers based on the word of God to at least try to get you to listen. If you choose not to that is something I will respect. The problem is that you have some people on my side who don't know how to handle rejection or leaving people alone when they said they don't want to listen, I try to not be that person. In this instance I gave it a shot, you responded that you weren't interested and that is all I can do unless you come back at some point and ask for more info.

But what qualifies you to have info worth listening to? How is your belief any greater/truer/better than anyone elses?

What christians need to understand is that the only true witness you can have is the way you live your life. Words don't mean a damn thing. Live your life like you know you're supposed to and you'll impact a hell of a lot more people than you ever will preaching on the street corner. Show me, don't tell me.

[Collier11]

But what qualifies you to have info worth listening to? How is your belief any greater/truer/better than anyone elses?

What christians need to understand is that the only true witness you can have is the way you live your life. Words don't mean a damn thing. Live your life like you know you're supposed to and you'll impact a hell of a lot more people than you ever will preaching on the street corner. Show me, don't tell me.

I never said he had to listen to me or any other Christian, all I said is that it is my responsibility as a Christian to show him my beliefs. If he chooses not to believe or listen then that is his choice, I will respect that and not be a jerk like some...

What makes my beliefs greater, more important? In my opinion and belief, Christ is the ONLY way to salvation and if anyone chooses not to take that road they are not granted salvation or an eternity of happiness. Therefore I try to let people hear that if they will listen

[Sooner_Bob]

No, I don't. Generally, when someone phrases questions like that, they think they already know the answer and their purpose is rhetoric, not discussion.

My bad. I thought message boards were for rhetoric and discussion.

Well we'll agree to disagree. I feel it's legit based on some of the previous discussions on this topic.

[TopDawg]

I think it's all BS; I can't tell you the number of times I've asked to win the lottery or for the Sooners to stage some kind of miraculous comeback (i.e, TGOWWDNS, 08 Fiesta Bowl, etc) and each time he has failed to deliver.

In TGOWWDNS, I think it just got worse.

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/uc/20080326/scrspe080326.gif

[JohnnyMack]

What makes my beliefs greater, more important? In my opinion and belief, Christ is the ONLY way to salvation and if anyone chooses not to take that road they are not granted salvation or an eternity of happiness. Therefore I try to let people hear that if they will listen

I still can't get a good answer from a Christian as to how the Christian god dealt with all the humans that lived before Jesus walked the earth. When Xi Ling Wang the farmer from the Shang Dynasty died, what happened to him?

Would you like to help me out with this?

[Sooner_Bob]

No. Especially since you targetted the question to the general audience of "non-believers" and I (being a non-believer) had answered you question not more than 1 page earlier.


Crawfish is smart.

Religion is not rational, and I'm not exactly sure why so many people insist on attempting to make it rational. I suppose they are like Blue, who thinks that if you believe in something irrational you somehow feel less educated or degraded. There is really no reason to feel "be-downgraded" [hairGel] for believing in something irrational, and no reason to argue that it *is* rational when it clearly is not. You can be "smart" and a Christian, just like you can be "smart" and believe in the "Big Bang" (with no idea of how the Big Bang actually came to be). We all believe in irrational things. Christianity just doesn't happen to be one of them for me.

So what, you expect me to actually read every post? :P

There may be no reason to feel "be-downgraded" but some non-believers (and believers alike) try to do just that to those who believe differently.

My question wasn't meant to do that at all . . . I was tired of getting that vibe from some folks (not necessarily in this thread) and wanted to ask the question.

[Collier11]

I still can't get a good answer from a Christian as to how the Christian god dealt with all the humans that lived before Jesus walked the earth. When Xi Ling Wang the farmer from the Shang Dynasty died, what happened to him?

Would you like to help me out with this?

Unfortunately my Christian history is not up to snuff, I really couldnt tell you honestly. There was God before Jesus though, as there was Christianity

[Sooner_Bob]

I still can't get a good answer from a Christian as to how the Christian god dealt with all the humans that lived before Jesus walked the earth. When Xi Ling Wang the farmer from the Shang Dynasty died, what happened to him?

Would you like to help me out with this?


God dealt with Old Testament Christians in a pretty ruthless and strict manner. If Xi Ling Wang didn't offer the proper sacrifices to God and live according to his law he was probably toast.

[shaun4411]

I never said he had to listen to me or any other Christian, all I said is that it is my responsibility as a Christian to show him my beliefs. If he chooses not to believe or listen then that is his choice, I will respect that and not be a jerk like some...

What makes my beliefs greater, more important? In my opinion and belief, Christ is the ONLY way to salvation and if anyone chooses not to take that road they are not granted salvation or an eternity of happiness. Therefore I try to let people hear that if they will listen

then i must be a jerk. because in my opinion and belief, my way is the only way to the truth, the only way that allows you to spend your life living the way it should be lived instead of wasting it away believing in a fairy tale and trying to get others to join your group. i feel contentment, not resentment. i have an internal happiness that for some reason christians just dont understand or believe. i must be a jerk, because it doesnt bother me that you dont feel the same way, and ill never try to convince or convert anyone to my side.

i mean, you arent the only one who thinks he's right.

[BigRedJed]

Actually, there WERE no old testament Christians. God's chosen people pre-Christ are still around. They're called Jews.

[BigRedJed]

Or perhaps more precisely, the chosen people of the Christian God.

[JohnnyMack]

God dealt with Old Testament Christians in a pretty ruthless and strict manner. If Xi Ling Wang didn't offer the proper sacrifices to God and live according to his law he was probably toast.

So that God was just sittin' around wearing a Metallica, "Kill 'Em All" T-shirt laying waste to the souls of billions? That guy sounds like a prick.

[TopDawg]

I still can't get a good answer from a Christian as to how the Christian god dealt with all the humans that lived before Jesus walked the earth. When Xi Ling Wang the farmer from the Shang Dynasty died, what happened to him?

Would you like to help me out with this?

I think God reveals himself to everyone in different ways. Even in Jesus' time, when (I believe) God revealed himself in human form, there were many who didn't respond.

So my answer to your question "How does a Christian God deal with all the humans that lived before Jesus walked the earth" would be: "Fairly." God knows how he revealed himself to them and how they responded, and I believe that he, being a just God, will deal with them justly.

In short, do I know WHAT he will do? No. But I think I have an idea of HOW he will do it.

[MojoRisen]

I dont hold God accountable for the Catacombs- but probably the failing so called democracy of the ruthless Romans and some of the old testament Jews didn't help matters.

At least people are forgivable - in my eyes if they choose to be and accept god when the time comes- which isn't up to me.

I am pretty sure Hitler has a pinapple regularly shoved up his arse but I can be for certain.

[Collier11]

then i must be a jerk. because in my opinion and belief, my way is the only way to the truth, the only way that allows you to spend your life living the way it should be lived instead of wasting it away believing in a fairy tale and trying to get others to join your group. i feel contentment, not resentment. i have an internal happiness that for some reason christians just dont understand or believe. i must be a jerk, because it doesnt bother me that you dont feel the same way, and ill never try to convince or convert anyone to my side.

i mean, you arent the only one who thinks he's right.

I was referring to Christians who force themselves on you and dont respect your decisions as far as being a jerk?

I do respectfully think you are wrong, and I hope you see that one day but that is your choice completely!

[crawfish]

then i must be a jerk. because in my opinion and belief, my way is the only way to the truth, the only way that allows you to spend your life living the way it should be lived instead of wasting it away believing in a fairy tale and trying to get others to join your group. i feel contentment, not resentment. i have an internal happiness that for some reason christians just dont understand or believe. i must be a jerk, because it doesnt bother me that you dont feel the same way, and ill never try to convince or convert anyone to my side.

i mean, you arent the only one who thinks he's right.

Fundie. ;)

[crawfish]

I still can't get a good answer from a Christian as to how the Christian god dealt with all the humans that lived before Jesus walked the earth. When Xi Ling Wang the farmer from the Shang Dynasty died, what happened to him?

Would you like to help me out with this?

Honestly, we were never told. Anything anybody says would only be pure speculation.

Of course, Xi Ling Wang was a real jerk... ;)

[Vaevictis]

I still can't get a good answer from a Christian as to how the Christian god dealt with all the humans that lived before Jesus walked the earth. When Xi Ling Wang the farmer from the Shang Dynasty died, what happened to him?

Would you like to help me out with this?

I was discussing this issue with a gentleman I know.

His comment is that just as we can look to history to know Jesus, those who preceded him could look to prophecy. Belief in the prophecy that the Messiah would one day come qualified as believing in Jesus.

In short, every honest, practicing Jew before Jesus is heaven bound. Everyone else, screwed. (Jews who remained Jews after Jesus too, apparently.)

[JohnnyMack]

I think God reveals himself to everyone in different ways. Even in Jesus' time, when (I believe) God revealed himself in human form, there were many who didn't respond.

So my answer to your question "How does a Christian God deal with all the humans that lived before Jesus walked the earth" would be: "Fairly." God knows how he revealed himself to them and how they responded, and I believe that he, being a just God, will deal with them justly.

In short, do I know WHAT he will do? No. But I think I have an idea of HOW he will do it.

So when Xi Ling Wang died, he went before God and God was all, "look I know you don't know me, but I'm the omnipotent ruler on high. Now I've been busy lately and haven't gotten around to actually doing anything about spreading the word that I'm in charge around here. I plan on doing that in a thousand or so years, we'll just have to see if I can clear my schedule off enough to make it happen sooner, but I kinda doubt it. Anyways, about why you're here......why are you looking at me like that? Never seen a white person before?"

[shaun4411]

it isnt likely to happen. i am not a flakey person =)

[OklahomaRed]

I still can't get a good answer from a Christian as to how the Christian god dealt with all the humans that lived before Jesus walked the earth. When Xi Ling Wang the farmer from the Shang Dynasty died, what happened to him?

Would you like to help me out with this?

Mack,

I agree with Collier, that I'm not here to win any arguement; however, as a Christian, we are taught that we should take the message to all ends of the earth. Also, I agree with Dean. What you live is a lot more impressive than any drivel that might come out of our mouth. I also agree with Jed, that we need to learn to respect others and learn to live and let live.

To your question:

Romans 2:12
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Again, I'm not God. If I believe the Bible, then the Bible is the inspired Word of God; however, I did not take the time to look it up, but another passage states that God's desire is that no one should perish. There is also a verse where Jesus, after his death, took the message to the prisoners who died before the tracking of Jewish faith (basically Christianity did spring out of the Jewish belief/trust in a ominopotent, omnipresent God).

I agree, the entire cosmic nature of things is hard for us to put our human minds around, and the Bible also tells us that we are as one looking through a dark glass or opaque glass. I am quite sure that we will be astounded at the vastness of eternity. Or as another poster put it, we die and that's it. If that's the case, then we might as well rob, rape, conquer party, and enjoy our selfish desires. I really don't want to serve a God that thinks like me.

[Collier11]

every single person on Earth has been exposed to God at some point, it is their choice to accept

[Sooner_Bob]

So that God was just sittin' around wearing a Metallica, "Kill 'Em All" T-shirt laying waste to the souls of billions? That guy sounds like a prick.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/1193/jesus17f2709mi7.jpg

[Sooner_Bob]

Actually, there WERE no old testament Christians. God's chosen people pre-Christ are still around. They're called Jews.

God's chosen people or not, not everyone was a Jew.

[shaun4411]

every single person on Earth has been exposed to God at some point, it is their choice to accept

there are over 6 billion people on earth. either christianity has a high attrition rate, or everyone hasnt been exposed. the only way someone would believe that ever living person will be exposed is predicated on faith.;)

[shaun4411]

Mack,

I agree, the entire cosmic nature of things is hard for us to put our human minds around, and the Bible also tells us that we are as one looking through a dark glass or opaque glass. I am quite sure that we will be astounded at the vastness of eternity. Or as another poster put it, we die and that's it. If that's the case, then we might as well rob, rape, conquer party, and enjoy our selfish desires. I really don't want to serve a God that thinks like me.

i believe that "we die and that's it". yet i havent robbed, raped or conquered anyone. not believing in god doesnt mean you dont believe in morality. i just do the right thing witout the notion of god looking over my shoulder.

[Collier11]

there are over 6 billion people on earth. either christianity has a high attrition rate, or everyone hasnt been exposed. the only way someone would believe that ever living person will be exposed is predicated on faith.;)

Gods word, not mine! :)

[Collier11]

i believe that "we die and that's it". yet i havent robbed, raped or conquered anyone. not believing in god doesnt mean you dont believe in morality. i just do the right thing witout the notion of god looking over my shoulder.

Even if it isnt the Christian God necessarily in your opinion, dont you think it is somewhat ignorant to not think that all of this comes from something bigger, that we arent just born then we die? That seems kind of crazy that even a non-believer would think that way?

[shaun4411]

well id like to ask a deaf mute bushmen deep in the jungle of a 3rd world african nation who lives his life piercing himself and herding goats what he thinks happens in the afterlife. i may not have a chance though, many dont have a long life expectancy. yet somehow, the word was delivered.

[OklahomaRed]

i believe that "we die and that's it". yet i havent robbed, raped or conquered anyone. not believing in god doesnt mean you dont believe in morality. i just do the right thing witout the notion of god looking over my shoulder.

I applaud you, and I am definitely happy that man can find it in himself to not take what he feels he can take without believing in some type of ultimate authority.

Morality, without any authority, is only what man say sit is, or those with the bigger army, or more money, or more nuclear weapons says it is? What might be immoral today (i.e. pedophilia) might be moral tomorrow; however, with an authority higher than myself, then there is an anchor to what man can say is right or wrong?

[OklahomaRed]

Paul had this same issue, here is his answer. He was a little closer to the action than me. :D

5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[a] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[g]

16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"[h] 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."[i] 19Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."[j] 20And Isaiah boldly says,
"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."[k] 21But concerning Israel he says,
"All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people."[l]

I'm through quoting scripture here. I struggle daily with life. I have no idea how those without hope deal with a loved one's death, a catastrophy in their life, or the daily wearing down of our bodies and minds. Have a great discussion.

[shaun4411]

i am not a 5 year old, and i dont need someone telling me what to do, or telling me what is right and wrong. ive been on this earth long enough to know what is right and wrong. most people by age 8 know what is right and wrong. there are a lot of "immoral" things that arent illegal that people simply dont do because they dont believe it is right. there is nobody telling them it's wrong, yet they dont do it. obviously the law isnt always the anchor for moral standards, but it is a guide. typically, over time, the law gets more lenient. but we still know what is right and what is wrong, and we know it while we are doing it.

some things are programmed, and something are innate. littering for instance is programmed. i have been programmed to believe littering is wrong. it isnt necessarily immoral, but it is wrong. for that reason alone, i dont litter. it feels weird to litter. it feels wrong. just like any assortment of other immoral acts. some are easier to do than others, but we still know theyre wrong. whether it is a god or just your ability to know what the right thing is, there is a barometer.

[Stoop Dawg]

Even if it isnt the Christian God necessarily in your opinion, dont you think it is somewhat ignorant to not think that all of this comes from something bigger, that we arent just born then we die? That seems kind of crazy that even a non-believer would think that way?

Ignorant? Perhaps. But how am I supposed to know any better? You obviously have one theory, but frankly, I don't find it all that plausible. And even if I did, your theory only gives me a rule book for living. It does not provide any fundamental purpose for my life at all.

Personally, I think it is just as likely that man has evolved from a single-cell organism originally given "life" by a freak strike of lightning as anything else. You may want to ask "Where did the lightning come from?" Similarly, I may want to ask "Where did God come from?" You may answer with "God has just always existed" to which I may reply "So has lightning". Alternately, you may answer "Our human minds cannot comprehend God" to which I would reply "Neither can our human minds comprehend the beginning of the Universe". We'll go around and around for several pages then simply decide that there is really no way of knowing from whence we came. In the end, you have chosen a belief system based on your own personal experiences. I have done the same.

So yes, it is ignorant to think that we are just born and then we die. It's also ignorant to believe in heaven and hell. It's also ignorant to think that we should mummify our body to preserve it for the after-life. All theories on what happens to our soul are based on ignorance, because none of know the real answer (even though some think they do - it's still just their opinion).

[crawfish]

How did the barometer become the barometer for such things?

I wonder.

[Stoop Dawg]

i am not a 5 year old, and i dont need someone telling me what to do, or telling me what is right and wrong. ive been on this earth long enough to know what is right and wrong. most people by age 8 know what is right and wrong. there are a lot of "immoral" things that arent illegal that people simply dont do because they dont believe it is right. there is nobody telling them it's wrong, yet they dont do it. obviously the law isnt always the anchor for moral standards, but it is a guide. typically, over time, the law gets more lenient. but we still know what is right and what is wrong, and we know it while we are doing it.

some things are programmed, and something are innate. littering for instance is programmed. i have been programmed to believe littering is wrong. it isnt necessarily immoral, but it is wrong. for that reason alone, i dont litter. it feels weird to litter. it feels wrong. just like any assortment of other immoral acts. some are easier to do than others, but we still know theyre wrong. whether it is a god or just your ability to know what the right thing is, there is a barometer.

Programmed by who? Or what? I think you should dig deeper.

Personally, my behavior is driven by two things:

1. Personal well-being
2. Survival of our species

Personal well-being drives me to obey the "Golden Rule". I have found through my experiences that treating others well generally (not always) leads to me getting what I want.

Survival of the human race drives larger goals (and is obviously less of a motivating factor). I don't litter because I enjoy nature. I cut back on fuel consumption because it's expensive and I'd rather spend my money elsewhere, but also because I want future generations to enjoy this planet. I pay taxes and support our country because I don't want to live under the rule of a dictator.

In short, it is in my own best interest to behave in a manner that closely conforms to the society in which I live. So I do. If I lived in a tribe in the middle of a jungle, I'd probably behave according to their customs.

[BigRedJed]

What if they involved neck stretching?

[yermom]

i am not a 5 year old, and i dont need someone telling me what to do, or telling me what is right and wrong. ive been on this earth long enough to know what is right and wrong. most people by age 8 know what is right and wrong. there are a lot of "immoral" things that arent illegal that people simply dont do because they dont believe it is right. there is nobody telling them it's wrong, yet they dont do it. obviously the law isnt always the anchor for moral standards, but it is a guide. typically, over time, the law gets more lenient. but we still know what is right and what is wrong, and we know it while we are doing it.

some things are programmed, and something are innate. littering for instance is programmed. i have been programmed to believe littering is wrong. it isnt necessarily immoral, but it is wrong. for that reason alone, i dont litter. it feels weird to litter. it feels wrong. just like any assortment of other immoral acts. some are easier to do than others, but we still know theyre wrong. whether it is a god or just your ability to know what the right thing is, there is a barometer.

your "barometer" is from culture though. it's not universal

[yermom]

dang you Stoop Dawg

[shaun4411]

How did the barometer become the barometer for such things?

I wonder.

jaux, i am more into silver than gold. and i dont worship!

crawfish, well, some people are just good, and some are just bad. its innate in some. its the same reason some people prefer one color over another. there is a reason why two people can look at the same thing and come to different conclusions. some people are basically good, and some people are basically bad. i hardly think that a god would make some people basically good, and others basically bad. could be brain chemistry, some neurotransmitters not firing, lack of seratonin or melatonin, or just plain old crazy.

[yermom]

some of that is going to get into nature vs. nurture as well though

[shaun4411]

Even if it isnt the Christian God necessarily in your opinion, dont you think it is somewhat ignorant to not think that all of this comes from something bigger, that we arent just born then we die? That seems kind of crazy that even a non-believer would think that way?

not at all. it takes more to think there is "something else" from which we came than to just look at it and take it for what it is. you have to go out or you way to make something as intricate as a heavenly creator up. animals dont live like that. dogs and cats dont have those concerns. you think cavemen did? it stems from the idea that we dont want to face our own mortality. simpler beings typically arent aware of their own mortality, but we are, and we had to come up with something.

not everyone is like me, some need a moral compass based from somewhere else. ;)

[C&CDean]

Alright, the bull**** is starting to get deep up in this bitch.

[yermom]

I agree, the entire cosmic nature of things is hard for us to put our human minds around, and the Bible also tells us that we are as one looking through a dark glass or opaque glass. I am quite sure that we will be astounded at the vastness of eternity. Or as another poster put it, we die and that's it. If that's the case, then we might as well rob, rape, conquer party, and enjoy our selfish desires. I really don't want to serve a God that thinks like me.

see Fraggle's sig :D


if we die and that's it, wouldn't you want to not waste your life? sure you might not be going to hell for raping and pillaging, but you will likely have a shorter life with a violent end.

you still have to deal with the consequences of your actions from yourself and those around you.

as for a god that thinks like you, aren't you "made in his image"?

[JohnnyMack]

Alright, the bull**** is starting to get deep up in this bitch.

http://www.combatenterprises.com/oplockd/thanks.jpg

[Collier11]

Ignorant? Perhaps. But how am I supposed to know any better? You obviously have one theory, but frankly, I don't find it all that plausible. And even if I did, your theory only gives me a rule book for living. It does not provide any fundamental purpose for my life at all.



sure it does, to honor and serve God and when you fall short, ask for forgiveness and you will still feel Gods kindness!

[Sooner_Bob]

jaux, i am more into silver than gold. and i dont worship!

crawfish, well, some people are just good, and some are just bad. its innate in some. its the same reason some people prefer one color over another. there is a reason why two people can look at the same thing and come to different conclusions. some people are basically good, and some people are basically bad. i hardly think that a god would make some people basically good, and others basically bad. could be brain chemistry, some neurotransmitters not firing, lack of seratonin or melatonin, or just plain old crazy.

I don't believe God makes us good or bad. There may be issues during a pregnancy that influence how someone turns out, but other than that I think we've got the freewill/ability to make our own choices.

[Collier11]

jaux, i am more into silver than gold. and i dont worship!

crawfish, well, some people are just good, and some are just bad. its innate in some. its the same reason some people prefer one color over another. there is a reason why two people can look at the same thing and come to different conclusions. some people are basically good, and some people are basically bad. i hardly think that a god would make some people basically good, and others basically bad. could be brain chemistry, some neurotransmitters not firing, lack of seratonin or melatonin, or just plain old crazy.

God doesnt make you good, decisions are in your life lead you to be a good person or not. The diff is, if you have God in your life you can be forgiven for your screw-ups, if you dont you wont be forgiven

[Collier11]

not at all. it takes more to think there is "something else" from which we came than to just look at it and take it for what it is. you have to go out or you way to make something as intricate as a heavenly creator up. animals dont live like that. dogs and cats dont have those concerns. you think cavemen did? it stems from the idea that we dont want to face our own mortality. simpler beings typically arent aware of their own mortality, but we are, and we had to come up with something.

not everyone is like me, some need a moral compass based from somewhere else. ;)

your moral compass comes from how you were raised and how you choose to be, God just guides you when you get lost brother!

[Sooner_Bob]

Alright, the bull**** is starting to get deep up in this bitch.


This one and probably 15 other threads . . .

[C&CDean]

First and foremost I'd like to thank and congratulate you South Ovarians for participating in a 21-page thread with a topic like religion and not having to have a single post moderated or a single poster baned.

This is exactly what we're trying to do with this joint and y'all behaved remarkably well - for the most part. I'm not locking this down because it got ugly, I'm locking it down because we're starting to just recycle the same stuff from previous pages. Thanks for your participation in this thread.