Bobby Jack

[southern sooner]

In your opinion is BJW our weakest link on the defense side of the ball? For the last couple of years, ever since Bo left (not that he was great for our D) I have felt he is way over his head in his current role. I am sure he was a great hire for rec and special teams when Stoops hired him in 1999, however; is he really a d-backs coach?

Thoughts????

[SoonerKnight]

let me see what I wrote the last 1000 times this was brought up! :D

[Collier11]

Or we could look at the trend of wide-open passing offenses and how it has drastically affected scoring over the last several years or that natl champion lsu gave up over 40 twice last year. It is impossible to shut down teams anymore, what we have to do is get better at stopping big plays

[DangTire]

You can make all the excuses you want for the guy, you're good at that. Keep creating smoke and mirrors to make yourself look like you know something. The fact remains OU was 67th in pass defense last season. Given the schedule, that is an atrocious number. They've looked utterly confused for 4 years now. There are a lot of weaknesses on the defense BJW being the weakest.

[Collier11]

You can make all the excuses you want for the guy, you're good at that. Keep creating smoke and mirrors to make yourself look like you know something. The fact remains OU was 67th in pass defense last season. Given the schedule, that is an atrocious number. They've looked utterly confused for 4 years now. There are a lot of weaknesses on the defense BJW being the weakest.

Notice how I said we have to get better, I forgot you have trouble reading...

[yermom]

You can make all the excuses you want for the guy, you're good at that. Keep creating smoke and mirrors to make yourself look like you know something. The fact remains OU was 67th in pass defense last season. Given the schedule, that is an atrocious number. They've looked utterly confused for 4 years now. There are a lot of weaknesses on the defense BJW being the weakest.

what about the schedule? Tulsa? Tech? Missouri x2? Texas... those are all pretty good passing teams

i'm happy enough when they are forcing fumbles and making picks again like they were last year

we were a concussion away from playing in New Orleans, but yeah they could be better

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

In your opinion is BJW our weakest link on the defense side of the ball? For the last couple of years, ever since Bo left (not that he was great for our D) I have felt he is way over his head in his current role. I am sure he was a great hire for rec and special teams when Stoops hired him in 1999, however; is he really a d-backs coach?

Thoughts????

1st of all, BJW was the defensive ends coach until bo left. he recruited guys like cody, austin english, etc.

2nd, he has coached dbacks before - he had the #1 pass defense for 2 years at texas back in the day. now as a DC, he was pretty bad.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

You can make all the excuses you want for the guy, you're good at that. Keep creating smoke and mirrors to make yourself look like you know something. The fact remains OU was 67th in pass defense last season. Given the schedule, that is an atrocious number. They've looked utterly confused for 4 years now. There are a lot of weaknesses on the defense BJW being the weakest.

our weakest link in the secondary has been players. lets remember that reggie smith was the first DB that BJW recruited. last year we had a true junior, a senior who spent most of his career with his arm in a sling, a converted running back, and a converted WR who managed to catch 0 passes in about 100 passing downs.

[NormanPride]

Here's hoping that our new guys step up. Have you looked at any of their film? I know the Fiesta Bowl was the only real game time they've had... And not against a very good passing offense.

[cheezyq]

I can't say which coach is the problem, but I do have a theory. Watching most of our games over the last couple of years, the problem is that our players have been out of position. I used to blame that on Venables and poor game-planning.

But, offenses in the last several years have become FAR more complicated than they used to be. I think in many cases we don't have the right personnel on the field, and that may be WHY our players are out of position. In most games, even if we were out of position, we could just out-athlete our opponents. But as we face teams with similar talent, having the proper personnel on the field is crucial.

Hopefully the defense will make some steps to rectify that. For instance, I've been reading that Stoops and Co. are preparing a hybrid LB/DB type position so that we can match up quickly as other offenses go in motion or make quick personnel adjustments at the LoS. The player will be like an extra strong safety that can switch between the WLB and Nickel positions.

If this is true, it tells me that Stoops and Co. identified the weakness and are working to shore it up.

[Collier11]

I dont see us being out of position, I see us overplaying, taking bad angles, and flat out busting. Obviously this still goes back to coaching but our players have to be smarter!

[Animal Mother]

I dont see us being out of position, I see us overplaying, taking bad angles, and flat out busting. Obviously this still goes back to coaching but our players have to be smarter!

Hell!!!! I thought this was going to be about Bobby Jack and how he held Marovich well under his season scoring average when OU played LSU in the NCAA.

[JLEW1818]

I just think are DB's go for the big hit way to much. Sure it looks good when it works 20% of the time. It's very hard to have a "great secondary", when we play STUD QB'S all season. Think about it, tech, ut, mizzo, tulsa, those teams are going to get their passing yards on us. We just have to have more than them.

[goingoneight]

You can make all the excuses you want for the guy, you're good at that. Keep creating smoke and mirrors to make yourself look like you know something. The fact remains OU was 67th in pass defense last season. Given the schedule, that is an atrocious number. They've looked utterly confused for 4 years now. There are a lot of weaknesses on the defense BJW being the weakest.

And you're way too quick to Judge. Let's take a good looksy at the offenses OUr defense faced last year, injuries and suspensions along the way.

Spread offense UNT. Granted, they sucked at it, but all they did was throw the ball.
Tulsa with Paul Smith. Get real if you think anyone could stop them, and we held them to 21 and picked him off twice.
Colorado wouldn't have been so bad if we didn't keep giving them the ball when OUr defense was totally gassed.
Texas may not be our favorite subject, but Colt McCoy is a helluva playmaker. Held them to 21. Not bad considering it's Texas, the game meant the season for both teams, and the big rivalry it is already.
Then you have Missouri. Say what you want. Yes, they're a little bit overrated and had a LOT go their way, but they finished #4 in the country and it had very little to do with a running game or defense. Take a wild guess what that leaves? I'll give you a hint... there's a reason he made it to the Heisman ceremony and it had a little to do with throwing it 40-50 times per game.
Texas Tech... what did they run the ball... twice the whole year?

Baylor ran a spread offense, Missouri twice (once the #1 team in the country when our so-called pathetic defense killed them), Okie Light ran a spread offense (held to 17)... did ANYONE in the COUNTRY play the offenses we played last year?

You don't have to answer... I know I'm right.

Then we play West Virginia. Without six starters. OUr offense didn't know they could actually score a *touchdown* until midway through the 2nd quarter after OUr scout team defense was already torched by yet another high-powered offense.

Bottom line... you're wrong, and you're one of those fans that give us a bad name. 11-3 with a freshmen QB, won the conference again and despite injuries and the usual bad breaks we were as good or better than anyone in the country yet AGAIN and you call for someone's head. Ever think that a quick-out pass beats any secondary out there? Ever stop and think how much time OUr injury-depleted DL gave a bunch of pass-happy QB's to throw?


you = pwn3d.

[Salt City Sooner]

And you're way too quick to Judge. Let's take a good looksy at the offenses OUr defense faced last year, injuries and suspensions along the way.

Spread offense UNT. Granted, they sucked at it, but all they did was throw the ball.
Tulsa with Paul Smith. Get real if you think anyone could stop them, and we held them to 21 and picked him off twice.
Colorado wouldn't have been so bad if we didn't keep giving them the ball when OUr defense was totally gassed.
Texas may not be our favorite subject, but Colt McCoy is a helluva playmaker. Held them to 21. Not bad considering it's Texas, the game meant the season for both teams, and the big rivalry it is already.
Then you have Missouri. Say what you want. Yes, they're a little bit overrated and had a LOT go their way, but they finished #4 in the country and it had very little to do with a running game or defense. Take a wild guess what that leaves? I'll give you a hint... there's a reason he made it to the Heisman ceremony and it had a little to do with throwing it 40-50 times per game.
Texas Tech... what did they run the ball... twice the whole year?

Baylor ran a spread offense, Missouri twice (once the #1 team in the country when our so-called pathetic defense killed them), Okie Light ran a spread offense (held to 17)... did ANYONE in the COUNTRY play the offenses we played last year?

You don't have to answer... I know I'm right.

Then we play West Virginia. Without six starters. OUr offense didn't know they could actually score a *touchdown* until midway through the 2nd quarter after OUr scout team defense was already torched by yet another high-powered offense.

Bottom line... you're wrong, and you're one of those fans that give us a bad name. 11-3 with a freshmen QB, won the conference again and despite injuries and the usual bad breaks we were as good or better than anyone in the country yet AGAIN and you call for someone's head. Ever think that a quick-out pass beats any secondary out there? Ever stop and think how much time OUr injury-depleted DL gave a bunch of pass-happy QB's to throw?


you = pwn3d.
I'll even further your point by adding that North Texas was 18th in the nation in passing offense. In fact, a further look at OU's schedule last year:

Opponent Passing avg. vs. OU

NTSU 290 232
Miami 170 87
USU 153 87
Tulsa 371 354
Colorado 234 220
Texas 255 324
Mizzou #1 314 361
Iowa St. 203 174
A&M 185 155
Baylor 273 280
Tech 470 420
OSU 243 104
Mizzou #2 314 219
WVU 159 176

Overall, not bad, considering the caliber of offenses that OU played more often than not. Really, the only game that you can say that the opposition got significantly more than their average during the normal course of the game was Texas, & that was due in large part to the 'horns hitting Finley down the middle for several long gains in the first half, a problem that was rectified at halftime. Mizzou surpassed their average in the first game due to that 80 yard drive they had at the end of the game (71 of it was passing), when the outcome had been already decided.

[RedstickSooner]

Or we could look at the trend of wide-open passing offenses and how it has drastically affected scoring over the last several years or that natl champion lsu gave up over 40 twice last year. It is impossible to shut down teams anymore, what we have to do is get better at stopping big plays

To win our 2000 national championship, we shut down one of the most prolific offenses of the decade. So I don't think the task is impossible -- just difficult.

LSU is a poor example. They won the NC because they rolled the hard sixes when they had to -- a dozen friggin' times. And with all the losses they had, they certainly aren't a traditional NC-calibre team.

[ashley]

Don't forget that a decision was made a long time ago that we were going to stop the run first and this has served us well but it puts a lot of pressure on the secondary in pass coverage. I am sure BJ knows and lives with this everyday.

[Collier11]

To win our 2000 national championship, we shut down one of the most prolific offenses of the decade. So I don't think the task is impossible -- just difficult.

LSU is a poor example. They won the NC because they rolled the hard sixes when they had to -- a dozen friggin' times. And with all the losses they had, they certainly aren't a traditional NC-calibre team.

You would admit though that the offenses now are a lot more complex than they were even in 2000?

[starrca23]

I get tired of these threads. Saying the defensive backfield is our "weak link" is a tough thing to say. I have never felt like we have had dominant d-backs, but when we were incredible on defense, we did have a dominant line. A dominant line stops the run on their own, forcing passing situations. They also get pressure on the qb in said situations. We were pretty darn good when Austin English was healthy. Also, when the quarterback has all day to make a throw and then a d-back gets beat he is put on national tv for getting burned. Some of that negative credit should go to the line. In games where we gave up big pass plays, we were also poor against the run. Not trying to put all the blame on the line, just trying to point out it is all connected.

[JLEW1818]

I get tired of these threads. Saying the defensive backfield is our "weak link" is a tough thing to say. I have never felt like we have had dominant d-backs, but when we were incredible on defense, we did have a dominant line. A dominant line stops the run on their own, forcing passing situations. They also get pressure on the qb in said situations. We were pretty darn good when Austin English was healthy. Also, when the quarterback has all day to make a throw and then a d-back gets beat he is put on national tv for getting burned. Some of that negative credit should go to the line. In games where we gave up big pass plays, we were also poor against the run. Not trying to put all the blame on the line, just trying to point out it is all connected.

Ya I agree with you, but it is time for something new. What that might be, I don't know. I'll leave that to Robert.

[rainiersooner]

I'm not sure I would attribute any of our three losses last season solely to the secondary. I would probably attribute them more to inconsistency on offense - starting with our o-line AND losing our starting quarterback. Can we be better in the secondary? Of course we can. But BJW is a great recruiter and a good coach IMO.

[Collier11]

logic logic logic, blah blah blah!

But BV is an idiot and BJW cant COACH!

[sooneron]

Given the schedule, that is an atrocious number.

It was right here that you showed your ***. Run along and go play in traffic.

[rainiersooner]

logic logic logic, blah blah blah!

But BV is an idiot and BJW cant COACH! Don't forget that Bob Stoops is overpaid!!!

[Curly Bill]

logic logic logic, blah blah blah!

But BV is an idiot and BJW cant COACH!

Welcome to the team Collier...I knew you'd come around. ;)

...idiot might be a little strong though, lets just say he's not a very good DC.

[Curly Bill]

Don't forget that Bob Stoops is overpaid!!!

All big-time college football coaches are overpaid.

[goingoneight]

Let's take another looksy at the losses since the famed Mike Stoops era (the era in which BJW and BV had just as much if not MORE to do with OUr success).

2008 West Virginia:
It's a freaking BCS game. I don't care if you're the supposed greatest team ever. When you have six starters out, including your top offensive and defensive threats... that spells trouble... period. We lolly-gagged around and played Fran-ball for nearly the first 25 minutes of the game knowing well that OUr defense was without it's big playmakers. By the time WVU completed honest drives, we had turned the football over, beaten OUrselves with penalties and only managed a field goal on three long possessions. As fate would have it, those missing starters, losing the turnover battle and offensive anemia killed us more than the coaching staff. If you think any different... you're wrong.

2007 Texas Tech:
We picked off Graham Harrell for a score to open the ballgame. It was the perfect break to set the tone. Then ill-fate one-upped us and Sam Bradford went down for the count. Joey Halzle took all of three quarters to score a touchdown. You cannot place the blame on the coaching staff here. Mike Leach's offense getting the ball left and right, road game... huge wrench thrown in the plan without Bradford. Then not only do we have OUr top two D-linemen out, we lost another to a concussion, too. In the end of it, we only lost by a score.

2007 Colorado:
I stand by it that if the correct call is made on Juaqin Iglesias's first down catch (which was clearly a catch), OU runs the clock out and eeks the game out 24-17. CU shut down Malcom Kelly and the rest of the team didn't respond. Dropped passes killed us... worse than any Stoops-era game. Bradford took the blame for horrible receiver play we lost the turnover battle. How is it the secondary coach's fault that receivers played their worst game of the year (arguably of their career), the line let their opposition shut down the running game and Reggie Smith muffed a critical punt he needed to field?

2007 Boise State:
The team as a whole under-estimated Cinderella and paid for it when once again, OUr biggest offensive threat went down early. The game went into overtime and BSU ran off the luckiest stretch of trick plays in the history o the game to barely win an essentially pointless game. Given that this OU team nearly lost to UAB and everything it took to get them to the BIG 12 CCG and Fiesta Bowl, I'd say this one's easy to shake off.

2006 Texas:
OU turned the ball over five times... Texas never did. End of story. They're damned lucky #10 wasn't still at Texas or we'd have been on the wrong side of a 65-13 kinda blowout with five turnovers.

2006 Oregon:
The secondary was young and eventually the coaching staff adjusted personnel and the team played much better. But are you really going to blame the defensive coaches for that on-side kick call? You know you're getting screwed when a former AA QB from your opposition is calling the game and says you're getting screwed.

2005 Texas Tech:
See: Oregon 2006.

2005 Texas:
Eventual National Champion puts 38 on the board and Bomar gives them 7 more. You have to score more than 12 points to beat the 2nd-ranked team in the country. Youngest team in the NCAA (also unranked at 2-2) playing the #2 (unbeaten) team in the land... you tell me what happens 9 out of 10 times. I never like losing to :texan:, either... but it's a lot easier to shake off when you know you're playing the best and you're young and probably at your worst. Let's forget that OU rightfully turned a major corner and won out, with a win over 10-1, 5th-ranked Oregon in the Holiday Bowl... that takes to long to consider when we can just rip on the coaching staff.

2005 UCLA:
I'm one to believe that when you fumble a snap seven times on the road... you suck. Add insult to injury, we played another surprise eventual 2-loss team on this day and turnovers did us in.

2005 TCU:
Blame the coaching staff all you want... but TCU only scored 17 points, and we lost by a touchdown. That's not bad defense... that's a cluster**** on offense. We all know and remember that day... the defense was the very least of OUr problems. TCU finished 11-1, their only loss a bigger fluke than an opponent winning in Norman.

2005 SUC:
I'll give you bad defense here... I'll also give you that Adrian Peterson was held to a season-low yardage, coughed it up a few times, we muffed a punt and Jason White had a career-worst 3 interceptions. USC OTOH, rolled and played with passion, and only went on to win 12 more in-a-row to make it 34-straight, tied for 2nd-longest winning streak in NCAA history, winning two BCS Bowls and going deep into the 4th quarter of another. Later, we'd find out a little more about how they actually got that NFL super-loaded USC team on campus from Mr. Lake... not that it matters.

That's 11 losses in four years, given a major rebuilding year.

So 2005 for the current staff is the 1999 for M. Stoops and Co. You have this big mess to clean up and lots of youth and inexperience. 1999=2005 in my books. They were basically just years "off" from the norm of double-digit winning seasons under Stoops. The only thing that really sucked that year was seeing UT win it all. Outside of that, it was really exciting seeing the team get better every week. Instead of ripping OUr staff to shreds, consider the youngest team in the NCAA won 9 games whilst playing arguably the toughest schedule in NCAAFB history.

2004 LSU:
Lost arrowly in the finale of the BCS. We were playing in front of 100,000 LSU Tiger faithful. No other team is luckier than them when you think about it. How many BCS games have they played away from La? Mark Clayton's toughest pill to swallow was dropping the crystal ball in the endzone. You win some, you lose some. This game for us was like FSU playing us in 2001. M. Stoops was OUr Mark Richt, and Jason White's injury was our missing FSU star receiver. Competitive loss, MUCH easier to shake off than the next few losses I'm about to list.

2003 Kansas State:
Absolutely embarassing display of football by a team heads and heels better than it's opponent. The supposed greatest team of all time would have been shut out if not for Kejuan Jones first, and ONLY OU score. Famed "Scary Good" Mike Stoops defense gives up 35.

2002 Okie Light:
Nate Hybl's game that made him infamous. The reason people still hold a grudge against him. However, he wasn't all that bad... it was the fighting agroid klan that was wide-open every snap. But that would be inconvenient to disrespect Mike Stoops, wouldn't it? As good as he was for OUr program, there were times like these when he didn't have the answers, either... yet no one felt we needed any changes then, did they?

2002 aTm:
If I hear Tooooooooooombs one more time, I might PUKE!!!1111!!1 [hairGel] College Station was eventually going to bite Bob Stoops like it does every great coach in the BIG 12. I felt much better after we got them back 77-0 the next year to be honest with you.

2001 Okie Light:
How in the hell do we only score 13 points on OUr home field against an OSU defense? Alright... skip that one... how do we lose a game on OUr home field when OUr opponent only scores 16 points? Jump back to TCU... the only two home losses under Stoops, the opponents combined score is 33 points. Congratualtions to Mikey on this one... OSU's 16 points should have never been within a mile of the defending National Champion on it's home field.

So making 1999 = to 2005, that's nine gimme losses to much-needed rebuilding.

Reminding you that Brent Venables and Bobby Jack Wright were on staff and VERY much involed in the 2000 miracle run. Brent and BJW have faced better offenses much more consistently the last four years. Of Stoops's 22 losses in ten years, 11 have come by turnover margin, screw jobs or just falt-out better teams in the famed "Venables era". Once again, turnover margin is margin of error, and falls on the players.

[OUTrumpet]

2007 Colorado:
I stand by it that if the correct call is made on Juaqin Iglesias's first down catch (which was clearly a catch), OU runs the clock out and eeks the game out 24-17. CU shut down Malcom Kelly and the rest of the team didn't respond. Dropped passes killed us... worse than any Stoops-era game. Bradford took the blame for horrible receiver play we lost the turnover battle. How is it the secondary coach's fault that receivers played their worst game of the year (arguably of their career), the line let their opposition shut down the running game and Reggie Smith muffed a critical punt he needed to field?

Here's the weird thing about that game. My football coaching class had a field day analyzing that play. No, it wasn't a catch.

The deal with that play that was ruled incorrectly was Dan Hawkins was able to challenge it. He challenged Iglesias' touchdown catch in the early part of the game. You get one challenge per game, and are charged a timeout if it's ruled incorrectly. He got away with 2 challenges.

[Remembering Tom Stidham]

Isn't Bobby Procter available?

[Collier11]

The deal is that everyone gripes about BV and BJW and makes Mike out to be a saint, obviously the guy is one of the top 2 or 3 Def coord in the nation but we had some breakdown games with him as well. It just didnt happen in bowl games as BV's do

[MojoRisen]

I have been to the last 4 BCS Games - I shake it off with pure Kool aid drinking becasue it sucks to loose games you are supposed to win.

I hope the coaches take credit for these losses and adjust accordingly. With exception of LSU coming of a devastating loss to KSU - we have looked very soft on Defense. You can say the game has changed but I have also seen us absolutely shut down Mike Leaches offense and Mizzou several times.

Hey- if we get punched in the mouth early- it will help to have experience at QB so we can make in game adjustments and play a little catch up ball. The D getting beat early doesn't help this at all- I won't totally blame them but the excuses for the offense need to be gone moving forward.

[ashley]

Bob Stoops thinks he is a good coach so he keeps him around. If he didn't he would let him recruit and coach the centers. Don't forget that Bob was a secondary coach and BJ pleases him. I dare say Bob knows more football than anyone on this site. Most on this thread just look for excuses for losing and the secondary coach is always easy to find fault with.

[Curly Bill]

Bob Stoops thinks he is a good coach so he keeps him around. If he didn't he would let him recruit and coach the centers. Don't forget that Bob was a secondary coach and BJ pleases him. I dare say Bob knows more football than anyone on this site. Most on this thread just look for excuses for losing and the secondary coach is always easy to find fault with.

Well yeah, that and the fact he's not done a very good job.

[Collier11]

Well yeah, that and the fact he's not done a very good job.

That is Coach Stoops $3 million decision, we can only contemplate and I trust Coach more than you...just saying! ;)

[Curly Bill]

That is Coach Stoops $3 million decision, we can only contemplate and I trust Coach more than you...just saying! ;)

I think maybe he has some incriminating pictures on the boss.

[MojoRisen]

Kind of like Switzer and that one other coaches wife :)

[JLEW1818]

I wish there were 12 Robert Stoops on the coaching staff, ??

[Charla]

Yall must be watching another team than I watch. The OU team I have watched for the last several years has sucked on defense. I say we won't get # 8 until we play defense consistent with being in the top five of the nation. Football has changed but it still looks to me that defense wins championships and offense only wins a few games. I don't think the game has changed that much since 2000 and does anybody remember where we ranked defensivly that year ? In fact I believe we won that game on defense, but I could be wrong as yall seem alot better informed than this Okie.

[JLEW1818]

03-04 D was solid until postseason.

[goingoneight]

Yall must be watching another team than I watch. The OU team I have watched for the last several years has sucked on defense. I say we won't get # 8 until we play defense consistent with being in the top five of the nation. Football has changed but it still looks to me that defense wins championships and offense only wins a few games. I don't think the game has changed that much since 2000 and does anybody remember where we ranked defensivly that year ? In fact I believe we won that game on defense, but I could be wrong as yall seem alot better informed than this Okie.

Since 2000? Are you serious?

no... you can't be.

How many great and high-scoring offenses did we play that year? You know... everyone always brings up 2000 and they mean the FSU game... but BV has completely shut down great offenses many of times te last four years. When OUr guys want to play and play a good game, we're always among the best out there. Same could be said for USC and the such.

How about reading the posts and facts before you rip OUr defensive staff just because they don't win an MNC every other year.

[Curly Bill]

How about reading the posts and facts before you rip OUr defensive staff just because they don't win an MNC every other year.

Is it OK if we rip them for giving up 48 points in the Fiesta Bowl?

edit...and 43 in last years Fiesta Bowl?

edit #2 Yes I am aware that we had eleventy-billion players out for this
years Fiesta Bowl, but the ones that did play were on scholarship
I believe.

[snp]

Is it OK if we rip them for giving up 48 points in the Fiesta Bowl?

edit...and 43 in last years Fiesta Bowl?

I don't see how anyone can try and blame the Boise State Fiesta Bowl on our defensive staff. A pick-6, 9-yard TD drive, and 2 once in a lifetime plays accounted for half their scoring. Our offense accounted for 4 turnovers and our defense caused 3. Plus, Boise State was a good team that year.

Ingram whiffs on tackling a WR and he scores on a 32 yard TD. Venables would have laid the kid out but he isn't the one making the plays when it comes down to it.

If you want and try and blame them for those trick plays working consider that Boise ran the same formation for a 2-point conversion earlier in the year and the staff had that play scouted. Find me another DC above Pee Wee that would have told his players to watch out for the Statue of Liberty.

The hook n ladder is stopped if Lewis Baker doesn't break contain instead of rushing into the middle of the field when the player is surrounded by 3 other defenders. That is something the staff prepares players for on a weekly basis.

[Curly Bill]

Can I then rip our defensive staff for it's lackluster blitz packages?

Can I rip them for our scheme were it's OK to have a DB 15 yards off a receiver when it's 3rd and 10? ...or 10 yards off when it's 3rd and 5?

Can I rip them because I have come to expect that we will have at least 2 or 3 games a year where our defense appears to not have a clue?

[Curly Bill]

...by the way: we have had the greater part of a month to prepare for these last two bowl games. Should we not be able to expect that our defense should play as if they have some idea what is going on?

[snp]

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion. But just remember the facts and stop placing blame where it shouldn't be. I too would love to see more blitz packages but I'm pretty sure BV knows when and how to blitz way better than else. But I think our DL is going to be so salty the next few years we won't' have to rely on blitzing as much.

We allowed the 19th fewest points last year and played by far the best offenses of the top teams (probably the entire country, never seen that statistic). The next closest team in the Big 12 was Missouri who was 37th.

[Collier11]

...by the way: we have had the greater part of a month to prepare for these last two bowl games. Should we not be able to expect that our defense should play as if they have some idea what is going on?

keep in mind the last two bowl games how many early 3 and outs and turnovers our offense had. It is reasonable to expect our defense to falter and tire after how bad our offense played early dont ya think?

[Curly Bill]

You guys can give me numbers, statistics, excuses (good or bad) and I just do not think that BV is a good DC. I have just seen our defense too many times during his tenure look like they don't have a clue what to do. That might be for an entire game, ie.. WVU, or it might be situational, ie.. giving a WR a 10 yard cushion when it's 3rd and 5, but I am yet to be convinced that he is up to the job of being the DC at OU, except for the fact that he's Bob's pal.

That being said: I'll say he is a good DC, he is by no means a great DC, nor is he up to the standards of what the DC at OU should be. If in this coming season events prove me wrong, and I sincerely hope they do, then I'll admit that I was wrong...but to this point I don't think that I am.

...and BJW is not even good at his job.

[Jdog]

You guys can give me numbers, statistics, excuses (good or bad) and I just do not think that BV is a good DC. I have just seen our defense too many times during his tenure look like they don't have a clue what to do. That might be for an entire game, ie.. WVU, or it might be situational, ie.. giving a WR a 10 yard cushion when it's 3rd and 5, but I am yet to be convinced that he is up to the job of being the DC at OU, except for the fact that he's Bob's pal.

That being said: I'll say he is a good DC, he is by no means a great DC, nor is he up to the standards of what the DC at OU should be. If in this coming season events prove me wrong, and I sincerely hope they do, then I'll admit that I was wrong...but to this point I don't think that I am.

...and BJW is not even good at his job.

I agree with Bill - Too many blown coverages, no speed, too much prevent, too many missed tackles, too many tackles in the secondary, too many excuses - I guess the D players could be over rated?

Seems to me that coach BS has lost his hunger for a NC, he's too close to his coaches - and this will prevent him from being the Groom in the B(C)S mix. Oh sure we'll win Big 12 Championships but we really haven't been NC competative in over 4 years.

BV's been here for 8 years and he's the only Coordinator that's been around for over 4 years who hasn't gone on to a head coaching job.

[cheezyq]

That being said: I'll say he is a good DC, he is by no means a great DC, nor is he up to the standards of what the DC at OU should be.

This is where I think I fall in line. I think BV IS a good DC. But I think he has some deficiencies in game-planning. The biggest problem is that everyone tries to compare him to Mike Stoops, and he's never going to be MS, no matter what he does. He's going to get better eventually, but he's never going to be what MS was.

MS had an uncanny feel for the game, and his defenses dictated to the other team how the game was going to be played. He knew that he had superior athletes and he used them to attack and surprise the offense. He didn't allow the offense to come up with a scheme to attack us and then react to it. He lined his athletes up and challenged the players to intimidate the opponent's offense.

Was MS a perfect DC? No. There were several games where his aggressiveness backfired and caused major breakdowns in coverage, etc. In fact, some of the great plays that make up Sooner lore of the last decade were actually missed assignments that only turned out well because of great individual effort, or just complete flubs by the opposing team, or a combination of the two. Torrance Marshall's INT return, Roy Williams flying leap over the line to cause the fumble v. UT, etc. If we have any lesser players in those positions, those plays may well turn out badly for us. The point is that MS knows how to attack an offense, when he has the athletes to execute his aggressive schemes.

And that's probably why his defenses at UA aren't that great. He can't out-athlete other teams like he did while he was here. So, MS wasn't/isn't a perfect DC. But he was perfect for us, and that's why he enjoys this legendary status among us fans.

BV is a good coach. But he's not great. He's a great recruiter, and he does a fine job with coaching the LB and DL positions. MAYBE one day, he will get better. Perhaps even this year we see some improvement. He certainly has had his shining moments over the last few years. But he's also had some stinkers. I'm fine with him as our DC, but I do think he needs to show improvement in some areas, especially with teaching tackling fundamentals. That's a problem we rarely had w/ MS as coach, and it seems to creep up in games like the CU and WV and BSU debacles.

Oh, and the teams that were coached by MS showed up in the biggest stages. That's probably the biggest difference between MS and BV in the minds of Sooners and....well, in reality. MS has the FSU, Arkansas, and WSU bowl games to hang his reputation on. BV has to hang his reputation on USC, BSU, and now WV. MS is simply the better coach. BV isn't BAD, but don't blame us for craving better results when we've had one of the best.

[Collier11]

Where is the line? We have consistently won with him as DC while winning a Natl title, 5 conf titles, and being in the top 10-20 in Def every year. Mikes D at Zona hasnt exactly lit the world on fire without BV either. Maybe they were a lot better team than we give them credit for

[Charla]

Yeah I'm serious we suck on defense and til we can admit that we will continue to

[Collier11]

Yeah I'm serious we suck on defense and til we can admit that we will continue to

consistently leading your conf in Def and in the top 10-20 really does suck...man, I really feel bad for Tulsa, Lousville, etc... now :rolleyes:

[snp]

I agree with a lot of what cheezy said. Mike Stoops had All Americans all across his lineup, BV does not. Offenses are much better right now as well.

And quit complaining about the DBs lining up that far off the LOS. You really don't think Bob sees the same thing we do? If Bob doesn't think that was the right way to align our CBs than he would probably tell BV to stop that a long time ago.

[goingoneight]

They line up far off the ball to disguise the blitz packages and to keep up with some of the fastest guys in the country. How many teams can say they shut down Maclin, Sweed and OSU's freshmen dood (Bryant?)?

If we "sucked" on defense, we would have been blasted by Missouri.

Eevr think that the first couple of years under Stoops that the attitude was a bit different, as well? As in, guys who aren't used to winning buy into Stoops's system more than the prima donnas thses days? It makes a lot bigger difference with the times and offenses than one might think.

As I look back on it... I realize just about every loss under the famed 'Venables era' had a lot more to do with turnovers and the opposition getting everything their way than flat-out bad defense.

[Collier11]

Lets look at the last two Fiesta Bowls, two years ago we were down what...21-3 or something like that before we blinked because of turnovers.

Last year we were in a 20-15 game thru mid-to late in the 3rd qt before 3 and outs and turnovers eventually wore us down as well as bad tackling

[Curly Bill]

And quit complaining about the DBs lining up that far off the LOS. You really don't think Bob sees the same thing we do? If Bob doesn't think that was the right way to align our CBs than he would probably tell BV to stop that a long time ago.

So...you're saying Bob is at fault? ;)

...BLASPHEMER!!! :D

[Curly Bill]

They line up far off the ball to disguise the blitz packages and to keep up with some of the fastest guys in the country.

blitz packages...

...that made me snicker, blitzing might be the thing we do worst.

...and on 3rd and 5 exactly how far do we expect those fast guys to run? I expect them to go about 5 yards turn around and catch the ball. Apparently whoever calls our defensive signals expects them to go for the home run ball everytime so we back up and wait for them.

...and by the way a really good way of dealing with those fast guys is you knock the crap out of them right at the LOS and then you don't have to chase them all over the field....or you can set back there 15 yards deep and let them get up a full head of steam and then try to run with them. hummmmm.....;)

[goingoneight]

I would LOVE to see anyone else in the country lose a FS, an All-conference corner, a great DT, play an injured linebacker, a DE who had the flu over the holiday/bowl season and see if they shut down someone in a BCS game.

That's a Derrick Strait, Tommie Harris, Teddy Lehman and a Rocky Calmus taken away from the Mike Stoops defense for reference. How do you see that defense doing in a BCS game?

Or how about this?
Spot FSU 14 easy points and try to make your way out of that one in the 2001 Orange Bowl.

Also... all of these idiots who keep saying BV is just some guy who can't get a HC job... KSU wanted him when Bill freaking Snyder retired, Arkansas wanted him after Nutt quit, aTm knocked on his door after Fran's little hissy fit before the Alamo Bowl, he was on the list of guys for the Louisville job when Petrino bailed... everytime he said he loves it in Norman and wants to stay. Every year he has us ranked defensively, no matter how much rebuilding is required, and there's not another active DC who wouldn't have been embarassed with last year's schedule of powerful offensive football teams.

Seriously... do people not pay attention to what happens 9 times out of 10 when a good assistant is fired or quits? For every Gene Chizik to Texas there are at a helluva lot more Bill Clownahans to Nebraska.

[Curly Bill]

consistently leading your conf in Def and in the top 10-20 really does suck...man, I really feel bad for Tulsa, Lousville, etc... now :rolleyes:

Tulsa and Louisville have no real expectations of playing for a NC...

...OU does have those expectations...

We have a higher standard then they do. Is that tough on the coaches that have to try and live up to that? Sure it is, but they're payed a lot for that, and I think we should expect more then we've been getting out of the defensive staff.

...not saying the guys on the offensive side of the ball have been perfect either. ;)

[Curly Bill]

I would LOVE to see anyone else in the country lose a FS, an All-conference corner, a great DT, play an injured linebacker, a DE who had the flu over the holiday/bowl season and see if they shut down someone in a BCS game.

That's a Derrick Strait, Tommie Harris, Teddy Lehman and a Rocky Calmus taken away from the Mike Stoops defense for reference. How do you see that defense doing in a BCS game?

Or how about this?
Spot FSU 14 easy points and try to make your way out of that one in the 2001 Orange Bowl.

Also... all of these idiots who keep saying BV is just some guy who can't get a HC job... KSU wanted him when Bill freaking Snyder retired, Arkansas wanted him after Nutt quit, aTm knocked on his door after Fran's little hissy fit before the Alamo Bowl, he was on the list of guys for the Louisville job when Petrino bailed... everytime he said he loves it in Norman and wants to stay. Every year he has us ranked defensively, no matter how much rebuilding is required, and there's not another active DC who wouldn't have been embarassed with last year's schedule of powerful offensive football teams.

Seriously... do people not pay attention to what happens 9 times out of 10 when a good assistant is fired or quits? For every Gene Chizik to Texas there are at a helluva lot more Bill Clownahans to Nebraska.

I know...BV keeps swatting away D-1 job offers like they're flies. I expect that he's waiting for the USC job to open up.

...or maybe he's waiting on the Patriots. :D

[Collier11]

Tulsa and Louisville have no real expectations of playing for a NC...

...OU does have those expectations...

We have a higher standard then they do. Is that tough on the coaches that have to try and live up to that? Sure it is, but they're payed a lot for that, and I think we should expect more then we've been getting out of the defensive staff.

...not saying the guys on the offensive side of the ball have been perfect either. ;)

You SOB! :eek: :D

No, I certainly agree. Those who call BV a bad coach or say we have a sh*tty Def are dead wrong IMO, but that doesnt mean we dont need to improve if we want to win another NATL Title

[Curly Bill]

You SOB! :eek: :D

No, I certainly agree. Those who call BV a bad coach or say we have a sh*tty Def are dead wrong IMO, but that doesnt mean we dont need to improve if we want to win another NATL Title

If we want to win a NC there's no doubt we'll have to improve. I think where we might differ is I just don't know if BV has it in him.

[Curly Bill]

I would LOVE to see anyone else in the country lose a FS, an All-conference corner, a great DT, play an injured linebacker, a DE who had the flu over the holiday/bowl season and see if they shut down someone in a BCS game.


One of the things we keep hearing is what a great recruiter BV is...
(I do agree on this)

...so shouldn't we be able to plug all those holes with those recruits...?

...and if he's the coach that some of you seem to think, then he needs to coach those fill-in guys up to a level where they can get the job done.

[Collier11]

If we want to win a NC there's no doubt we'll have to improve. I think where we might differ is I just don't know if BV has it in him.

what has Mike won without BV? Some people fail to realize that they did it together, it wasnt just Mike

[Collier11]

One of the things we keep hearing is what a great recruiter BV is...
(I do agree on this)

...so shouldn't we be able to plug all those holes with those recruits...?

...and if he's the coach that some of you seem to think, then he needs to coach those fill-in guys up to a level where they can get the job done.

Well lets look at D.Franks, this guy by all accounts is going to be really good. That being said, he sat on the sidelines all year behind a 2 time All conf corner who is about to be a 1st rd draft pick. Just because DF has the talent of Reggie doesnt mean he has yet refined his skills on that level, let alone after rarely playing all year and being thrust into a BCS game

[Curly Bill]

what has Mike won without BV? Some people fail to realize that they did it together, it wasnt just Mike

I think Mike can win without BV, given the players to do so.

I have less faith each year that BV can win without Mike, given the players to do so or not.

[Curly Bill]

Well lets look at D.Franks, this guy by all accounts is going to be really good. That being said, he sat on the sidelines all year behind a 2 time All conf corner who is about to be a 1st rd draft pick. Just because DF has the talent of Reggie doesnt mean he has yet refined his skills on that level, let alone after rarely playing all year and being thrust into a BCS game

I know this logically of course...

...but I just wanted to jab a stick at you BV guys that if he's such a great coach then it really shouldn't matter. :D

[Collier11]

Im not necessarily a BV guy, I just think he is unfairly criticized when more often than not it has been our players not holding themselves responsible and accountable while on the field representing OU

[Curly Bill]

Im not necessarily a BV guy, I just think he is unfairly criticized when more often than not it has been our players not holding themselves responsible and accountable while on the field representing OU

I hear ya, and there's no doubt that any failures rest for the most part on the shoulders of the players...

...but there comes a time when if certain things keep happening we have to look and see if there's more to it then just players not making plays, and I think this is a trend with our D.

[cheezyq]

I think the biggest problem on this board is that everyone takes a republican/democratic view on BJW and BV. Either they suck and should be fired, or they're awesome and we should never let them go. The reality is that they, especially BV, are somewhere in between.

If they completely sucked, Bob Stoops wouldn't keep them around. And if they were awesome, then he wouldn't be inserting himself in the defensive process where necessary and asking for and making adjustments, as he's done the last couple of years.

I agree with Curly Bill about the LoS thing, though. Having played both WR and CB, I was much happier knowing I was getting a clean break off the line, especially in obvious passing situations. I also knew my job was harder if I didn't get into a receivers face on D, even/especially if the guy was faster than me.

The problem with allowing receivers, especially in spread offenses, to roam free is that they know where they're going (while the defense doesn't), and the schemes are generally designed on timing and confusion. If you get up in a receiver's face and force him to alter a route, you destroy the continuity of a spread offense, ruining the timing and allowing your front line to get in the QB's face. And you don't usually have to worry about a big play, because spread offenses are generally designed with short/medium routes, due to limited time for the QB to throw. That's why I don't buy this whole BS about "BV is facing more spread offenses", etc. The reality is that if you are the aggressor on defense, and you have loads of talent (like we usually have), you win almost all of the battles.

And that's where MS was different than BV. MS wasn't a genius at figuring out an opponent's offense and coming up with some magical scheme. He just didn't allow them to execute their offense. The same thing goes for New England/Belichek and Pittsburgh/Cowher defenses. If they can get the offense to react to the defense, rather than the other way around, they've won the battle. They've intimidated you into changing your offense and then you've played into their hands.

Personally, I want MS back (yes, I know that he probably won't). It's not that I don't like BV, and that I don't think that BV is a good DC. It's that I like MS style of D more. It's just a personal preference, regardless of the successes, or lack thereof, for either coach. MS defenses were more "Sooner-like", in my opinion, and reminded me of the glory days of the 80s. But that's just me.

[Curly Bill]

Well said again cheezyq...

Either the defense can try to dictate what happens, or they can set back and let the offense dictate. I think under BV, and maybe it's Bob making him do it, we have become too reactionary. Hell boys, we're OU, we should impose our will on our opponents, not let them act, and then we react to them.

A good basketball analogy might be last years series between the Mavericks and the Warriors. Mavericks have the best record in the NBA, but instead of saying here's what we're gonna do Golden State, see if you can stop it, Avery was all worried about how we were gonna counter their stuff. Hell, you got the best record, make them do what you want, not you having to do what they want.

[Collier11]

maybe playing off the LOS by our corners is a sign that Coach Stoops knew he didnt have enough speed at Safety. We often lose sight that all decisions run thru Stoops

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

You guys can give me numbers, statistics, excuses (good or bad) and I just do not think that BV is a good DC.

so basically what you are saying is that someone can lead you to the facts but you aren't going to drink. just like a horn fan with recruiting.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

and before you fire off your clever retort. i really don't have much of an opinion on whether BV is a good DC or not. every year there has been a striking deficiency in the quality of player at one or more positions yet he has managed to put together a passable OU defense. the question remains though if he can put together a great defense based on the talent he has or that he can assemble the correct talent for the defense he runs.

as for the comments about bjw, i just don't know where to start. the only thing that has hurt us at the positions he has recruited was a dearth of talent when he took over the position and injuries.

[Curly Bill]

so basically what you are saying is that someone can lead you to the facts but you aren't going to drink. just like a horn fan with recruiting.

My retort to this would be that numbers often don't tell the whole story, and that statistics can often be made to say what you want to get said, in other words they can be used to indicate most anything. The statistics I would point to is that under BV we have a couple of games each year where our defense appears to have no clue what's going on.

[Curly Bill]

and before you fire off your clever retort. i really don't have much of an opinion on whether BV is a good DC or not. every year there has been a striking deficiency in the quality of player at one or more positions yet he has managed to put together a passable OU defense. the question remains though if he can put together a great defense based on the talent he has or that he can assemble the correct talent for the defense he runs.

as for the comments about bjw, i just don't know where to start. the only thing that has hurt us at the positions he has recruited was a dearth of talent when he took over the position and injuries.


No question about it, and I would say even better then passable, but should we be happy with that?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

No question about it, and I would say even better then passable, but should we be happy with that?

considering who we've had in the secondary and our linebacker corps last year - i'd say that is as good as you can ask. a "passable" OU defense is in the top 15-20 in the nation - not great, but still a defense 10 other teams in the conference would die for.

the biggest problem that i see with getting rid of venables is that we've spent the last 3-4 years recruiting to his system. if we just up and get a new dc will those guys fit the new guy's system? i don't like getting rid of guys who are good at what they do and will stay for the chance that we can get someone great for 2 years who is going to leave.

bjw is a known quantity as a coach. he'll recruit 1-2 work ethic superstars and a ton of solid know the game types. it takes time for him to build them up, but once he gets his pipeline going, it takes a rash of injuries to really set him back. since he has been on campus he has only had 1 recruit transfer and that was after he left coaching DEs.

[Theskipster]

I can only think of one loss where OU was just flat out poorly coached on defense, the Fiesta Bowl against WVU.

Those other game's biggest defensive problems were some of our defensive players feeling the game slip away and they pressed and tried to do more than their job making the defense look porous and really easily fooled on misdirection.

Our biggest problem on defense these last couple years has been more a lack of maturity on the players than bad coaching and schemes.

Every coach will tell you that great players make coaches look like geniuses. And you don't get much better than Derrick Straight, Roy Williams, Teddy Lehman, Brandon Everage, Antonio Perkins, and Rocky Calmus.

[cheezyq]

I can only think of one loss where OU was just flat out poorly coached on defense, the Fiesta Bowl against WVU.

I can think of a few more in mere seconds. Boise State was poor defensive coaching. UW and Oregon and UAB before that in the same year. TGOWWDNS Part 1. That's without looking. Each of those games had distinct problems that can be directly attributed to coaching/preparation.


Those other game's biggest defensive problems were some of our defensive players feeling the game slip away and they pressed and tried to do more than their job making the defense look porous and really easily fooled on misdirection.

I disagree to an extent. I'm sure you can attribute nerves to some of our defensive performance problems. BUT, if you're prepared, generally those nerves go away. Being fooled on misdirection plays goes DIRECTLY to coaching. If players are properly prepared, they maintain their discipline on misdirection plays.


Our biggest problem on defense these last couple years has been more a lack of maturity on the players than bad coaching and schemes.

I'm not sure how you can quantify that statement, really. Our defensive backfield has been loaded with experience these last couple of years. Yet we're seeing, generally, the same poor results. If there is a lack of maturity in these players, despite being in the same system for 3-4 years, then it again falls back on the coaches to identify that problem and root it out.


Every coach will tell you that great players make coaches look like geniuses. And you don't get much better than Derrick Straight, Roy Williams, Teddy Lehman, Brandon Everage, Antonio Perkins, and Rocky Calmus.

The hardest part of evaluating this statement is measuring the talent levels of the two eras. But, if you go by either HS hype or even NFL-measurable talent, then we've had just as much talent, if not more, the last couple of years as we had during the MS years.

But the reality is that we have more talent than most teams. This year, we certainly had more talent than CU and TTU, and probably more talent than WVU as well. But we lost all 3 games. Other than the TT game, which can be attributed to the shell shock of losing SB, losses to less talented teams can generally be attributed to mistakes in coaching.

And going back farther, the only team we've defeated with equal or greater talent than us since 2004 is Texas. In contrast, we've lost to 6-7 teams with less talent (depending on whether you count the Oregon game as a loss or not). And the only game that didn't include serious defensive breakdowns was the TCU game in '05. What's more interesting is that everyone focuses on the losses. They often don't include some narrow escapes like Washington, UAB, Baylor, etc., that contained big-time defensive breakdowns. Even in games we've WON, we've had some serious deficiencies on defense.

Just food for thought. I don't want to get rid of BV, but I certainly want to see some improvement in our defensive consistency.

[cvsooner]

A rhetorical question: are the defensive players poorly coached...or are they ignoring/not-putting-into-practice the coaching?

[Collier11]

I can think of a few more in mere seconds. Boise State was poor defensive coaching.

Incorrect sir, Boise we fell way behind early because of turnovers and bad field position. On the trick plays our guys were in the right place on all 3, with the hook and ladder our outside guy got sucked in, if he wold have stayed in position he tackles him for a 5 yd gain and game is over! The HB pass Latimer was there he just didnt make a play, on the statue we were in position but we got sucked in by the fake pass.

BV cant help if the players choose not to stay where he puts them

[Curly Bill]

And going back farther, the only team we've defeated with equal or greater talent than us since 2004 is Texas. In contrast, we've lost to 6-7 teams with less talent

Well said. It's disturbing, but it is also true.

[Curly Bill]

Incorrect sir, Boise we fell way behind early because of turnovers and bad field position. On the trick plays our guys were in the right place on all 3, with the hook and ladder our outside guy got sucked in, if he wold have stayed in position he tackles him for a 5 yd gain and game is over! The HB pass Latimer was there he just didnt make a play, on the statue we were in position but we got sucked in by the fake pass.

BV cant help if the players choose not to stay where he puts them

If you get drawn out of position then you are in fact not in position, it doesn't matter where you start from. You have to be in position to make the play or you can't be said to be in position.

[Curly Bill]

considering who we've had in the secondary and our linebacker corps last year - i'd say that is as good as you can ask. a "passable" OU defense is in the top 15-20 in the nation - not great, but still a defense 10 other teams in the conference would die for.


My quarrel is not with our defensive numbers, where we rank in yards given up, points given up, whatever, that's why I said earlier I didn't care about the statistics. My beef is those two to three games each year where our defense, and I almost hate to keep saying this same thing, but where the defense appears to have no clue what's going on.

[Curly Bill]

A rhetorical question: are the defensive players poorly coached...or are they ignoring/not-putting-into-practice the coaching?

In many ways those two things are one and the same, ie..poor coaching.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

no that's called making a bad read.

look, we've lost to teams with less talent before 2004 - osu 2001? osu 2002? aTm 2002? kstate 2003?

i'll agree with you on players from different eras. however, under mike as a DC brent venables fielded 3 linebackers that are in the top 30 all time. we also fielded 2 all time DBs, an all time DE, and 1 all time DT (dvoracek is borderline). since that time do we have anyone who would make that list? english is about the only one who looks like they might be heading for that honor...

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

My quarrel is not with our defensive numbers, where we rank in yards given up, points given up, whatever, that's why I said earlier I didn't care about the statistics. My beef is those two to three games each year where our defense, and I almost hate to keep saying this same thing, but where the defense appears to have no clue what's going on.

let me say that i'm not exactly thrilled when its going down, but sometimes you can see it coming. film is the great equalizer in college football and with it teams tend to exploit things.

2002 osu exploiting brandon everage's ankle and woolfolk's lack of experience

2003 kstate exploiting brandon everage in the alley

2004 usc exploiting our depleted DL with that delayed trap

2008 west virginia exploiting our weak side linebacker's guessing

[Curly Bill]

no that's called making a bad read.

look, we've lost to teams with less talent before 2004 - osu 2001? osu 2002? aTm 2002? kstate 2003?

i'll agree with you on players from different eras. however, under mike as a DC brent venables fielded 3 linebackers that are in the top 30 all time. we also fielded 2 all time DBs, an all time DE, and 1 all time DT (dvoracek is borderline). since that time do we have anyone who would make that list? english is about the only one who looks like they might be heading for that honor...

True...but we keep signing these ballyhood recruting classes. Is it worth asking why these players aren't becoming what they were expected to be?

...and I'll go ahead and say that for the most part it prolly rest on those players shoulders, but still it's worth podering for a second or two.

[Collier11]

True...but we keep signing these ballyhood recruting classes. Is it worth asking why these players aren't becoming what they were expected to be?

...and I'll go ahead and say that for the most part it prolly rest on those players shoulders, but still it's worth podering for a second or two.

They are going to the NFL and we are going to BCS games, if we had won one or two of those this convo wouldnt be happening but that is to be expected.

[Curly Bill]

film is the great equalizer in college football and with it teams tend to exploit things.


Again true, but defenses can also use film to exploit offenses and I think this is a problem I, and some others like cheezy, see with us right now. It seems we are never prepared to dictate to the offense what happens, but instead simply are reacting. I have probably used this term before but it seems our defensive schemes are entirely too passive.

We had a month to watch WVU film and prepare for example. Does anyone here sincerely think that time was well spent. If so it certainly did not show.

...and God yes, I know we had eleventy-billion players out for differet reasons.

[Curly Bill]

They are going to the NFL and we are going to BCS games, if we had won one or two of those this convo wouldnt be happening but that is to be expected.

Absolutely true!

...but since that wasn't the case: Katie bar the door, it's open season!

[Collier11]

If you get drawn out of position then you are in fact not in position, it doesn't matter where you start from. You have to be in position to make the play or you can't be said to be in position.

Thats not TRUE! [hairGel] :D BV had the players in the right position on all three of those game deciding plays, it is at that point the players responsibility to not bite or overpursue, they must stay in their lanes and make the play which they didnt

[cheezyq]

Thats not TRUE! [hairGel] :D BV had the players in the right position on all three of those game deciding plays, it is at that point the players responsibility to not bite or overpursue, they must stay in their lanes and make the play which they didnt

Then if that's the case, isn't it the coaches responsibility to insert players into the lineup that CAN stay in their lanes and not overpursue?

[Collier11]

Then if that's the case, isn't it the coaches responsibility to insert players into the lineup that CAN stay in their lanes and not overpursue?

BV had the PERFECT defense called on all three plays, wouldnt you expect your season long starters to be able to realize that they are the last person outside and it is their responsibility to stay there?

[snp]

The HB pass Latimer was there he just didnt make a play, on the statue we were in position but we got sucked in by the fake pass.


Actually that was Reggie's man but he got sucked up to the LOS. Latimer just tried to make up for Reggie's messup.


Then if that's the case, isn't it the coaches responsibility to insert players into the lineup that CAN stay in their lanes and not overpursue?

Maybe the other players can't either. These are 20 year old kids we're talking about.

[Mjcpr]

20 year old kids make me laugh.

Just give 'em a rustle of the hair and some encouragement to get 'em next time. The little rapscallions.

[shaun4411]

JC-- offer mike stoops $2 Million to be the DC and end it alerady.

[Jdog]

I would LOVE to see anyone else in the country lose a FS, an All-conference corner, a great DT, play an injured linebacker, a DE who had the flu over the holiday/bowl season and see if they shut down someone in a BCS game.

That's a Derrick Strait, Tommie Harris, Teddy Lehman and a Rocky Calmus taken away from the Mike Stoops defense for reference. How do you see that defense doing in a BCS game?

Or how about this?
Spot FSU 14 easy points and try to make your way out of that one in the 2001 Orange Bowl.

Also... all of these idiots who keep saying BV is just some guy who can't get a HC job... KSU wanted him when Bill freaking Snyder retired, Arkansas wanted him after Nutt quit, aTm knocked on his door after Fran's little hissy fit before the Alamo Bowl, he was on the list of guys for the Louisville job when Petrino bailed... everytime he said he loves it in Norman and wants to stay. Every year he has us ranked defensively, no matter how much rebuilding is required, and there's not another active DC who wouldn't have been embarassed with last year's schedule of powerful offensive football teams.

Seriously... do people not pay attention to what happens 9 times out of 10 when a good assistant is fired or quits? For every Gene Chizik to Texas there are at a helluva lot more Bill Clownahans to Nebraska.

I take it all back - I didn't realize that BV was offered the jobs at both KSU or the Arkansas - and then turned them down?

I think most of us are just ****ed about the majorly embarrassing butt kickings we took in the bowls with USC, Bosie State, West Virginia - 03 Big 12 game with KSU - and the regular season games with UCLA and Texas in 05.

SURE the offense is to blame for opening some flood gates ----- but when the D-line starts begging the other team's offense to just get the game over with - that was the biggest embarrassment I have ever felt as an OU fan - and yes it ****es me off. Only the Blake and Jones years could come close to that feeling.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

its rarely as simple as "just insert someone who can do it", which is my main problem with the oversimplified blame the coordinator argument - there are just so many other variables involved. to give a few:

1. 85 scholarships - that's enough for maybe 4 at any one position on the field. optimally, you want only juniors and seniors that have had multiple years of repetitive practice at their assignments under their belt which leaves you with 1-2 at the position depending on attrition. in other words all recruiting mistakes are magnified and not just for one season but several.

20 hours max practice weeks, no coach contact for 6 months from spring to fall practice - probably the most debilitating restriction for anyone who runs either a complicated offense or defense. you only have 15 spring practices in the spring to teach players technique or assignments. if the one you expect to start takes a lot of reps, it hurts the next player in line because they don't get as many reps.

offseason shoulder/knee injuries - sitting out springs means that you don't get a chance to get the reps necessary to progress as a player with comfort in the system

attrition - forces you to play people to early

playing to early - its amazing how most players who play as true freshmen end up plagued by injuries. that redshirt year is huge in terms of preparing your body for the pounding you are going to receive in D1.

struggling in the classroom - you have to take the time that you would normally voluntarily spend with a coach to stay ahead in the classroom. remember, 20 hours isn't a long time considering all a football player does. voluntarily spending time with a coach helps with getting assignments down

now if we had an incompetent coordinator or one who was seriously hurting the program, there is a legit reason to let them go. i list chuck long in this category not because of his boring gameday offense but of his inability to keep a QB on campus or keeping a QB following the rules. i can not explain how lucky we were last year that bradford panned out. if a head coach continues to retain inept coaches then you have to question why you retain the head coach (john blake).

[Jdog]

let me say that i'm not exactly thrilled when its going down, but sometimes you can see it coming. film is the great equalizer in college football and with it teams tend to exploit things.

2002 osu exploiting brandon everage's ankle and woolfolk's lack of experience

2003 kstate exploiting brandon everage in the alley

2004 usc exploiting our depleted DL with that delayed trap

2008 west virginia exploiting our weak side linebacker's guessing

I have to take exception with 2 things you said. How can you say that Woolfolk lacked experence in 02? when he was playing both ways in 2000?

in 04 USC exploited the secondary - and then the D-line. Perkins had played the last 5 games with a high ankle sprain and Walker had his redshirt pulled with two or three games to go in the season. Matt the brat threw all night to a freshman receiver and that's what opened up the draw.

And WV just plain kick our butts - they looked like the old 71 sooner offense and we looked like the old 71 KSU defense. They had a full back who scored on a 60+ yard run - that ain't linebackers, that the whole defense.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I have to take exception with 2 things you said. How can you say that Woolfolk lacked experence in 02? when he was playing both ways in 2000?

we have players going 1 way that can't learn their assignments :D. they took advantage of his lack of experience by running woods on a post route where woolfolk is supposed to bump him off the route to allow the safety to get back into position - no bump = td. yes, everage bit and couldn't recover but woolfolk just let him go free.


in 04 USC exploited the secondary - and then the D-line. Perkins had played the last 5 games with a high ankle sprain and Walker had his redshirt pulled with two or three games to go in the season. Matt the brat threw all night to a freshman receiver and that's what opened up the draw.

this is a matter of opinion, mine is that what opened up the passing game was the constant great field position and the 5-6 yards on 1st down. your assessment could be just as correct.


And WV just plain kick our butts - they looked like the old 71 sooner offense and we looked like the old 71 KSU defense. They had a full back who scored on a 60+ yard run - that ain't linebackers, that the whole defense.

well, if you are familiar with that offense you will remember all the times it seemed like once you broke the LOS there was no one left behind to tackle hello/goodbye. now think about the linebacker at the point of attack guessing the wrong way and knocking down the other linebacker who is flowing with the play. its tough enough playing an option team 11 on 11. 11 on 9 gets ugly.

if i was to compare the WV game to an OU equivalent it would be 2002 texas where we didn't block that white strongside linebacker and left him one on one with Q. that guy probably still falls out of bed with nightmares...

[Jdog]

we have players going 1 way that can't learn their assignments :D. they took advantage of his lack of experience by running woods on a post route where woolfolk is supposed to bump him off the route to allow the safety to get back into position - no bump = td. yes, everage bit and couldn't recover but woolfolk just let him go free.



this is a matter of opinion, mine is that what opened up the passing game was the constant great field position and the 5-6 yards on 1st down. your assessment could be just as correct.



well, if you are familiar with that offense you will remember all the times it seemed like once you broke the LOS there was no one left behind to tackle hello/goodbye. now think about the linebacker at the point of attack guessing the wrong way and knocking down the other linebacker who is flowing with the play. its tough enough playing an option team 11 on 11. 11 on 9 gets ugly.

if i was to compare the WV game to an OU equivalent it would be 2002 texas where we didn't block that white strongside linebacker and left him one on one with Q. that guy probably still falls out of bed with nightmares...

My point with Woolfolk - he had three years experence as a DB including being a part of a winning team in an NC game - and he knew better than most how to play the other side of the ball. That would seem like a lot of experence to me - but that's just me.

With WV I think it was more than just the LBs tripping over each other, or our DBs would have had a shot at making a play up field. The DBs were playing thin then coming up to with in 5 yards of the LOS after the snap of the ball. Once their running back made it 7 yards past the LOS it was Goodbye - and Devine looked like Pruitt - and their fullback looked a lot bigger and slower than Crosswhite.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

My point with Woolfolk - he had three years experence as a DB including being a part of a winning team in an NC game - and he knew better than most how to play the other side of the ball. That would seem like a lot of experence to me - but that's just me.

there was a quote from woolfolk when he was getting ready for the draft that he'd learned more about being a DB in the month he'd been preparing for the draft than he had his entire college career. obviously, that may be overdramatic, but one point of it still stands - in college players have huge periods of time with no instruction followed by limited stretches with instruction followed by game prep.


With WV I think it was more than just the LBs tripping over each other, or our DBs would have had a shot at making a play up field. The DBs were playing thin then coming up to with in 5 yards of the LOS after the snap of the ball. Once their running back made it 7 yards past the LOS it was Goodbye - and Devine looked like Pruitt - and their fullback looked a lot bigger and slower than Crosswhite.

we've been gouged by the fullback before (nebraska 2000 for most obvious one) - lack of preparation or disbelief by the players that he could break into the clear - its obvious there was a huge hole there.

i thought 2 teams this year forced our hand defensively because of matchup problems - wv and colorado. more than any year this year's defense lacked versatility because of how bad the linebacking corps was. yes, lofton was good, but baker and reynolds were huge liabilities on the field against the run.

[NormanPride]

Why has our LB corp been so bad recently?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

a lot of misses recruiting wise

lewis baker - quote by the texas linebacker coach at the time - he's the best linebacker prospect i've ever seen

pleasant

chris patterson - 12 times

after that you have the lofton class (true juniors) - reynolds, lofton, and robinson (who was an oddity when we recruited him as his recruiting video looked nothing like a typical venables recruit).

the tabon class - tabon (gone), crow, patterson (again)

and last year's class - austin box, lewis, mike reed (gone)

[MamaMia]

When one has millions in the bank they can afford to hire whomever they please and for whatever reason they want. If people don't like it,...who cares? When you have more money than God, losing your job wouldn't even be a big deal.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

for most highly competitive coaches, money is more of an affirmation for how good they are, not necessarily the prime motivator. that motivator is winning because, you know, its better than losing. and i guarantee you losing bothers him as much if not 100x worse than your average fan, especially blow out losses.

as we've seen through the last decade, stoops is a dance with the devil you know type of person. as long as he feels that person gives him a good chance of victory over the course of the season, he'll stick with him.

[MamaMia]

for most highly competitive coaches, money is more of an affirmation for how good they are, not necessarily the prime motivator. that motivator is winning because, you know, its better than losing. and i guarantee you losing bothers him as much if not 100x worse than your average fan, especially blow out losses.

as we've seen through the last decade, stoops is a dance with the devil you know type of person. as long as he feels that person gives him a good chance of victory over the course of the season, he'll stick with him.and you know this to be a fact because.....?

[RedstickSooner]

Man, this gets folks' panties in a bunch.

First, I have to agree that I really liked the MSBV team. That being said, during the MS era, his mark was very distinct on the defense. What defined MS was absolutely brilliant pre-game planning, preparation, and fundamental work. Our defense instilled fear -- because our defense was more aggressive than our offense.

Unfortunately, not only did that aggressiveness sometimes backfire, MS also had another weakness: Dude did NOT adjust well to offenses. If his plan didn't work, he kinda stuck with it. BV, to his credit, *does* adjust the defense at the half when it ain't working. Does he need to adjust pretty often? Sure.

Still, like I said, MS wasn't perfect. What I would've loved is a better hybrid -- the MS gameplanning and aggressiveness, coupled with a sensible ability to adjust when the gameplan *doesn't* work, or has deficiencies.

We're an elite team. We have elite players. I want those players used in a hell-bent-for-leather manner. Not in a bend but don't break manner.

However, sorta like you fight the war with the army you've got, I suppose we also have to accept playing football with the coaches we've got. BV ain't MS, but he's still a very decent coach, and finding a superior replacement would be a tall order. So, what we probably need to do is take the good with the bad -- we get solid defenses, if unspectacular defenses, and defenses that are (usually) able to adjust to cope with whatever gameplan the opposing offense throws at them. The only game in the last few years where I didn't see that happening, really, was against WVu. I'm sure some statmonkeys will come out and prove me wrong, but the game I saw, at least, involved a defense that simply couldn't cope. (And, yeah, I dig that we were crippled from a personnel standpoint for that game)

Truly, in the long run, my basic wish for our defense remains unchanged. We've got, as our head coach, one of the gurus of the game -- and I'd like to see him more heavily involved in the defensive side of running things. Most of today's marquis head coaches run either the offense or the defense, and by doing so, they provide rock-solid stability in coaching on that side of the ball.

When The King was coach, we always KNEW what we'd have on offense. We'd have a top-notch attacking high-risk, high-reward option game. Because The King ran the show on offense. We got, basically, 15 years of offensive stability.

For what we pay Stoops, and for how talented he is, I'd enjoy having that same benefit on defense. It's not a knock against BJW, or BV. It's just that however good either of them are, I personally believe Stoops is better. His Florida defenses were attacking, high-risk, high-reward defenses -- and I think for a championship team, that's what you have to have.

Winners play smart. Champions attack. We're a championship team.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

and you know this to be a fact because.....?

bri told me

[MamaMia]

bri told meWell, then that explains it.

[Where'stheD]

When one has millions in the bank they can afford to hire whomever they please and for whatever reason they want. If people don't like it,...who cares? When you have more money than God, losing your job wouldn't even be a big deal.

BINGO, we have a winner! Having the unflagging devotion of people who live in the past doesn't hurt either.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

of course it does, you took a line of reasoning that got 6 people banned from this board ie attacking the poster when they disagreed with you. its your opinion that he does it because he has so much money he doesn't care and keeps people around nixon style. its my opinion that he wants to win and win consistently as such he doesn't make changes lightly because he doesn't want to jeopardize that history of success.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

BINGO, we have a winner! Having the unflagging devotion of people who live in the past doesn't hurt either.

hmm, so that's the way you are going to go with this troll. dangtire, pick a user name i'll merge them...

[starrca23]

I feel stupider for reading some of this...wait I mean more stupid...SEEEE!

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I feel stupider for reading some of this...wait I mean more stupid...SEEEE!

i aim to please :O

[Where'stheD]

hmm, so that's the way you are going to go with this troll. dangtire, pick a user name i'll merge them...

Does the truth hurt so good that you need to call people trolls ace. C'mon let me give you a hug precious. You sound like you need one, or perhaps some midol.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

having users with split personalities is a big no-no. i don't really care what you post as long as you keep it all under one handle. however, since you didn't pick one, we'll leave dangtire as your main...

[cheezyq]

and you know this to be a fact because.....?

...because most coaches know that if they win, it equals more money for them.

[MamaMia]

...because most coaches know that if they win, it equals more money for them.
dang jkm, stick to one user name for the love of God. :D

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

how about i compromise and make one called sybil

[MamaMia]

how about i compromise and make one called sybil There ya go. :D

[93sooner]

Not to pile on but

www.firebobbyjack.com

whorns suck

[Phantasm]

sounds like Bobby has passed his Peter Principle point of competence.

[yermom]

Not to pile on but

www.firebobbyjack.com

whorns suck

well, seeing that Mike was coaching the DBs the last time A&M beat OU, i can see why one of their fans might want Bobby Jack or any other OU coach gone...

[93sooner]

well, I'm not an Aggie fan, but since you didn't read past the first post on the Aggie recruit slamming BJW you wouldn't know that.

We either have players that can't follow a brilliant game plan or bad coaching in the secondary.

You know that sign at the home games that counts down the days to the National Championship game? That's me. I haven't missed a home game or sexat game since I PCS'd back to "the home of the Sooners." So please don't question my fanhood in front of the ladies.

93sooner
firebobbyjack.com

[goingoneight]

I see nothing wrong with the recruiting story on their board. BJW was being brutally honest. At OU, we play for Championships. If you want to go play for aTm, go for it... but come here and do better for yourself is what he was saying. That's not "arrogant" when you haven't signed a letter of intent, that's "recruiting." If we gave hugs and high fives to recruits and signed child rapists, I'd be concerned. Your "fire bobby jack" is ridiculous. Were you "counting down the days to a National Championship" when we didn't have one of the best defensive staffs in the country? You know... before 1999?

I got it... how about this? LSU's secondary sucked doneky ballz and they won the MNC last year. You're going to hate on someone who's doing a better job than the defending champs?

[birddog]

Does the truth hurt so good that you need to call people trolls ace. C'mon let me give you a hug precious. You sound like you need one, or perhaps some midol.

did you really call jkm ace? :rolleyes:

the offseason always brings in quality, knowledgeable posters.

[Salt City Sooner]

I see nothing wrong with the recruiting story on their board. BJW was being brutally honest. At OU, we play for Championships. If you want to go play for aTm, go for it... but come here and do better for yourself is what he was saying. That's not "arrogant" when you haven't signed a letter of intent, that's "recruiting." If we gave hugs and high fives to recruits and signed child rapists, I'd be concerned. Your "fire bobby jack" is ridiculous. Were you "counting down the days to a National Championship" when we didn't have one of the best defensive staffs in the country? You know... before 1999?

I got it... how about this? LSU's secondary sucked doneky ballz and they won the MNC last year. You're going to hate on someone who's doing a better job than the defending champs?
I don't think he's necessarily doing all that bad of a job considering the caliber of QB's OU's been facing recently, but as much as it pains me to say it, LSU was very good last year. They were 9th nationally in passing yards allowed, & 3rd nationally in pass efficiency D (OU was 59th & 43rd respectively). In fact, the only D stat that OU ranked higher than LSU overall was TFL's. IMO, the dispairity in those rankings isn't necessarily a reflection of OU's play by itself, because as I said, OU faced a consistently more wide open attack week in & week out than LSU did (Florida was the highest ranked O that they faced, while OU played 6 games vs. teams that finished ranked higher), but the Tigers were very good on their own merits.

[snp]

well, I'm not an Aggie fan, but since you didn't read past the first post on the Aggie recruit slamming BJW you wouldn't know that.


You really expect us to read that much of your nonsense?

[Scott D]

I don't think he's necessarily doing all that bad of a job considering the caliber of QB's OU's been facing recently, but as much as it pains me to say it, LSU was very good last year. They were 9th nationally in passing yards allowed, & 3rd nationally in pass efficiency D (OU was 59th & 43rd respectively). In fact, the only D stat that OU ranked higher than LSU overall was TFL's. IMO, the dispairity in those rankings isn't necessarily a reflection of OU's play by itself, because as I said, OU faced a consistently more wide open attack week in & week out than LSU did (Florida was the highest ranked O that they faced, while OU played 6 games vs. teams that finished ranked higher), but the Tigers were very good on their own merits.

well if we'd played Auburn, Alabama, and Miss. St. instead of Texas Tech, Missouri, and Tulsa we'd have been top 10 in passing yards and passing efficiency. But digging further, Ali Highsmith > Reynolds/Baker..and Glenn Dorsey (when he was fully healthy) > any individual in our DT rotation. LSU was able to get more consistent pressure up front with the front 7.

[ashley]

Finally there are some people with football knowledge talking good sense on this thread.

[Collier11]

Did anyone ever think that it may have been the players, as I have stated numerous times!

[Curly Bill]

Did anyone ever think that it may have been the players, as I have stated numerous times!

Yeah, but the mere fact you suggested it made us think that couldn't possibly be what it was. ;) :D

[Collier11]

Yeah, but the mere fact you suggested it made us think that couldn't possibly be what it was. ;) :D

well f*Ck me! :O