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View Full Version : I listened to BHO's speech today.



Okla-homey
3/18/2008, 01:04 PM
Nice speech. Some very inspiring rhetoric. The guy has a gift.

Here's the part that bothered me. BHO said he didn't agree with his preacher's screeds demonizing white folks, but he could not disown Jeremiah Wright any more than he could disown the black community.

Now, here's the way I see this kids.

Fred Phelps is a white preacher in Topeka KS who preaches hate just like BHO's preacher does. Of course, Phelps rails against gay folks, while BHO's pastor hates white folks, so it's not a precise fit in that sense.

However, it works to make the following point. I'm a straight white d00d but I have no compunction about disowning and villifying Fred Phelps as a dangerous extremist. Therefore, I fail to see why BHO feels incapable of disowning Jeremiah Wright. Or, in the alternative, is the presumptive presidential nominee trying to have it both ways?

what do you guys think?

:pop:

soonerinabilene
3/18/2008, 01:09 PM
I think you make a great point. I also think that BHO took speech lessons from The Rock.

Pricetag
3/18/2008, 01:14 PM
I'm thinking that Wright has said and done a lot of stuff that Obama agrees with in an agenda of advancing the black race. This latest deal, however inflammatory and off-base, was just a part of that (a part he would have done well to drop, IMO).

I don't see how Phelps' stuff could be seen as part of an agenda to advance the white race, or any other thing, for that matter. Apart from the fiery rehetoric, I don't see how they're similar.

Personally, I'm impressed that Obama has responded the way he has. It disgusts me to see politicians ditch anything and everything that becomes a political liability (flip-flop, anyone?). He's chosen to stick with this, and we'll see how it affects him. Personally, I think the people making the most noise about this are the ones who never would have voted for him anyway.

Flagstaffsooner
3/18/2008, 01:37 PM
I say BHO is full of bull$hit.

crawfish
3/18/2008, 01:39 PM
Obama did as good as he could have possibly done; but it may not end up being nearly enough. While I think whites will vote for a black man, I don't think they'll vote for an angry black man. If he can't shake that image then he probably won't win.

sooneron
3/18/2008, 01:44 PM
I think he should drop the preacher like a bad habit, but first you must ask yourself. "Do I agree with and/or believe in everything my preacher/clergyman says?" Maybe someone should have Hill grill him on it. She got him to reject Farkhan's endorsement.

JohnnyMack
3/18/2008, 02:03 PM
Nice speech. Some very inspiring rhetoric. The guy has a gift.

Here's the part that bothered me. BHO said he didn't agree with his preacher's screeds demonizing white folks, but he could not disown Jeremiah Wright any more than he could disown the black community.

Now, here's the way I see this kids.

Fred Phelps is a white preacher in Topeka KS who preaches hate just like BHO's preacher does. Of course, Phelps rails against gay folks, while BHO's pastor hates white folks, so it's not a precise fit in that sense.

However, it works to make the following point. I'm a straight white d00d but I have no compunction about disowning and villifying Fred Phelps as a dangerous extremist. Therefore, I fail to see why BHO feels incapable of disowning Jeremiah Wright. Or, in the alternative, is the presumptive presidential nominee trying to have it both ways?

what do you guys think?

:pop:

Fred Phelps isn't your pastor nor has he been for 20 some odd years, so that comparison doesn't fly with me.

If your Uncle/Father/Preacher or some other person you considered a close mentor said something off-color would you disown and villify him? Would you blow 20 years of a relationship out of the airlock over a series of soundbytes?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
3/18/2008, 02:08 PM
Nice speech. Some very inspiring rhetoric. The guy has a gift.

Here's the part that bothered me. BHO said he didn't agree with his preacher's screeds demonizing white folks, but he could not disown Jeremiah Wright any more than he could disown the black community.

Now, here's the way I see this kids.

Fred Phelps is a white preacher in Topeka KS who preaches hate just like BHO's preacher does. Of course, Phelps rails against gay folks, while BHO's pastor hates white folks, so it's not a precise fit in that sense.

However, it works to make the following point. I'm a straight white d00d but I have no compunction about disowning and villifying Fred Phelps as a dangerous extremist. Therefore, I fail to see why BHO feels incapable of disowning Jeremiah Wright. Or, in the alternative, is the presumptive presidential nominee trying to have it both ways?

what do you guys think?

:pop:BHO will have to totally renounce the preacher of hate at some point, or he will alienate the white dems, and the extremist black vote won't be anywhere enough to win him any national election.

C&CDean
3/18/2008, 02:34 PM
Fred Phelps isn't your pastor nor has he been for 20 some odd years, so that comparison doesn't fly with me.

If your Uncle/Father/Preacher or some other person you considered a close mentor said something off-color would you disown and villify him? Would you blow 20 years of a relationship out of the airlock over a series of soundbytes?

****-poor analogy dude.

My uncle/father/preacher could say something "off-color" and I wouldn't disown him. However, if my uncle/father/preacher was an avowed racist, bigot, and hater who has spent the past couple decades or more preaching the evil of the black race then yeah, I would. Even you can see how crappy your analogy is, no?

Condescending Sooner
3/18/2008, 02:37 PM
Fred Phelps isn't your pastor nor has he been for 20 some odd years, so that comparison doesn't fly with me.

If your Uncle/Father/Preacher or some other person you considered a close mentor said something off-color would you disown and villify him? Would you blow 20 years of a relationship out of the airlock over a series of soundbytes?


You are hurting your own point. My family went to a church close to the house a couple of months ago. The preacher came across as somewhat of a nut, so we never went back. Any normal person would quit going to a church that espoused things you found wrong or unacceptable. Obama chose to go to this church for 20 years, yet he is now trying to disassociate himself with the pastor. And if you believe this was the first time that his pastor said something to that effect, you are truly in denial.

Whet
3/18/2008, 02:52 PM
Barry has accepted the racist minister for over 20 years, although he "claims" to have never heard Wright spew his venom (yea, right). The radicalism preached by Wright follows the radicalism espoused by Barry and is wife. If you look at Barry's past associations, you can see where his loyalties and beliefs are derived. Nothing much has been said about Barry's relationship with two unrepentent Weathermen, nor is connections with the democratic socalist society.

Barry may speak with a velvet voice, but that does not cover up his beliefs or his past. Rather than listening to the talk, look at his walk - if he walked two miles, he would walk in a complete circle, since he is so left of center!

JohnnyMack
3/18/2008, 02:55 PM
****-poor analogy dude.

My uncle/father/preacher could say something "off-color" and I wouldn't disown him. However, if my uncle/father/preacher was an avowed racist, bigot, and hater who has spent the past couple decades or more preaching the evil of the black race then yeah, I would. Even you can see how crappy your analogy is, no?

You don't know any more about the preacher that what you've seen in 60 seconds worth of soundbytes. BHO's 20 year relationship with him versus your 60 second Sportscenter analysis are two different things. So I think I'll have to trust his opinion in this matter instead of yours.

C&CDean
3/18/2008, 02:58 PM
You don't know any more about the preacher that what you've seen in 60 seconds worth of soundbytes. BHO's 20 year relationship with him versus your 60 second Sportscenter analysis are two different things. So I think I'll have to trust his opinion in this matter instead of yours.

Go ahead. It wouldn't be the first time you took the stupid train.

C&CDean
3/18/2008, 03:00 PM
Barry has accepted the racist minister for over 20 years, although he "claims" to have never heard Wright spew his venom (yea, right). The radicalism preached by Wright follows the radicalism espoused by Barry and is wife. If you look at Barry's past associations, you can see where his loyalties and beliefs are derived. Nothing much has been said about Barry's relationship with two unrepentent Weathermen, nor is connections with the democratic socalist society.

Barry may speak with a velvet voice, but that does not cover up his beliefs or his past. Rather than listening to the talk, look at his walk - if he walked two miles, he would walk in a complete circle, since he is so left of center!

Dude, you said Barry like a hundred times in this post. Jeez.

Of course the "people" don't care what type of character, morals, values, or anything meaningful a prez has got going on, all they care about is "do he look good and do he talk good?" "People" are ****ing idiots.

JohnnyMack
3/18/2008, 03:01 PM
Go ahead. It wouldn't be the first time you took the stupid train.

This one stops at presumptive-judgmental-ville.

Whooo whooo!!!!

SoonerProphet
3/18/2008, 03:04 PM
Is anyone asking McCain to distance himself from John Hagee?

Condescending Sooner
3/18/2008, 03:25 PM
Is anyone asking McCain to distance himself from John Hagee?

Was John McCain a member of his church for 20 years? Did Hagee marry Mcain and his wife, and baptize his kids?

shaun4411
3/18/2008, 03:38 PM
i think obama's point is that this guy is his friend, and he wont simply just disown his friend for saying things he doesnt agree with. doesnt mean they'll still hang out and have a beer everyday after work. his other point is that these statements arent what he preaches at every sermon every week. that the statements on the radio/tv/internet are the most extreme from his most extreme speeches.

at the same time...he could have disassociated himself in public with this guy the minute the decided to be a public figure on a national stage. amazing it hasnt hit him harder. i guarantee if mccain's pastor for 20 years had been outwardly saying the exact same things, mccain would be taking an 8 month vacation in the caribbean instead of wasting another penny on his campaign.

JohnnyMack
3/18/2008, 03:38 PM
You are hurting your own point. My family went to a church close to the house a couple of months ago. The preacher came across as somewhat of a nut, so we never went back. Any normal person would quit going to a church that espoused things you found wrong or unacceptable. Obama chose to go to this church for 20 years, yet he is now trying to disassociate himself with the pastor. And if you believe this was the first time that his pastor said something to that effect, you are truly in denial.

Not so much as you might like to think.

And I don't go to church so I wouldn't know. I spend my Sunday mornings drinking coffee, eating bagels, reading the paper and worshiping Satan in all his dark glory.

And if you bothered to watch the speech (which I'm sure you didn't, as you've already made up your mind) you'd know that he didn't disassociate himself from Wright.

SoonerProphet
3/18/2008, 03:40 PM
No and no. Does this alter the point for either? Just because someone has recieved the endorsement of, or been affiliated with does not mean that they hold the same beliefs of that person.

I find Hagee's ideology deplorable, but that does nt mean I think McCain is some how intertwined with his dispensationalist views.

SoonerProphet
3/18/2008, 03:43 PM
In addition to all this hype, what has Wright said that has the white folks in a tizzy?

JohnnyMack
3/18/2008, 03:44 PM
That Cheney has a hurricane machine.

SoonerProphet
3/18/2008, 03:46 PM
Or more black men are in prison than college.

shaun4411
3/18/2008, 03:50 PM
Or more black men are in prison than college.

you big fat racist. trying to give us facts.

TexasSooner01
3/18/2008, 04:02 PM
you big fat racist. trying to give us facts.

How do you know he is fat????

stoops the eternal pimp
3/18/2008, 04:04 PM
He said he prefers shells and cheese over the old school mac and cheese..a complete outrage..

mdklatt
3/18/2008, 04:09 PM
He said he prefers shells and cheese over the old school mac and cheese..a complete outrage..

Oh no you di'int! Shells and cheese is way better, because the cheese gets inside the shells. It's a little explosion of cheesetastic goodness with every bite.

JohnnyMack
3/18/2008, 04:16 PM
What's good is the bacon bits in the shells & cheese.

Hatfield
3/18/2008, 04:28 PM
Nice speech. Some very inspiring rhetoric. The guy has a gift.

Here's the part that bothered me. BHO said he didn't agree with his preacher's screeds demonizing white folks, but he could not disown Jeremiah Wright any more than he could disown the black community.

Now, here's the way I see this kids.

Fred Phelps is a white preacher in Topeka KS who preaches hate just like BHO's preacher does. Of course, Phelps rails against gay folks, while BHO's pastor hates white folks, so it's not a precise fit in that sense.

However, it works to make the following point. I'm a straight white d00d but I have no compunction about disowning and villifying Fred Phelps as a dangerous extremist. Therefore, I fail to see why BHO feels incapable of disowning Jeremiah Wright. Or, in the alternative, is the presumptive presidential nominee trying to have it both ways?

what do you guys think?

:pop:

he went on to say it is the same how he can't distance himself from his white grandmother who acknowledged being afraid of black men on the street and who made racial slurs herself.

i think it goes more to the heart of obama trying to paint the picture that the clips we are hearing don't paint the true picture of the man that is rev. wright.

that is a major diff. between him and your phelps comparison, as phelps is pure disgusting 24/7.

obama has claimed that wright has been a source of inspiration in his faith and several other facets so I can understand not completely shutting him out or disowning him.

I thought the speech was fantastic and it tackled a very touchy subject in an honest manner.

stoops the eternal pimp
3/18/2008, 04:30 PM
you kids today with your saggy britches and your loud rap music with your shells and cheese with bacon bits...i remember when there wasnt a choice and you ate the mac and cheese...3 boxes for 50 cent!

Condescending Sooner
3/18/2008, 05:00 PM
No and no. Does this alter the point for either? Just because someone has recieved the endorsement of, or been affiliated with does not mean that they hold the same beliefs of that person.

I find Hagee's ideology deplorable, but that does nt mean I think McCain is some how intertwined with his dispensationalist views.


Having a supporter spout craziness versus belonging to a church for 20 years that spouts craziness is VERY different. If you can't see that, you are in denial.

shaun4411
3/18/2008, 05:02 PM
you kids today with your saggy britches and your loud rap music with your shells and cheese with bacon bits...i remember when there wasnt a choice and you ate the mac and cheese...3 boxes for 50 cent!

dont forget kool aid and watermelon.

Condescending Sooner
3/18/2008, 05:02 PM
I thought the speech was fantastic and it tackled a very touchy subject in an honest manner.

Of course you did. He could have said screw whitey and you would have thought it was a great speech.

C&CDean
3/18/2008, 05:04 PM
If it came out tomorrow that Obama was a mass murderer of little white babies a bunch of y'all would be "but his speech today was so fantastic that I can let that one slide...." Meh.

Let's call a spade a spade for chrissakes.

He hangs out with looney tunes. He receives support from Farrakhan. Everything about his past history is tainted and questionable - at best. He has no real political experience at a level that would qualify him to be POTUS.

But dang y'all, he's one smoove talker and looks good doing it. Plus, he said he's gonna "change everything." You people are beyond silly. And you'd better be careful, he just might change everything after all.

Condescending Sooner
3/18/2008, 05:05 PM
And if you bothered to watch the speech (which I'm sure you didn't, as you've already made up your mind) you'd know that he didn't disassociate himself from Wright.

I read his entire speech. And the fact that he didn't disassociate himself from Wright will hurt him even more.

Condescending Sooner
3/18/2008, 05:08 PM
In addition to all this hype, what has Wright said that has the white folks in a tizzy?


Are you really that ignorant?

achiro
3/18/2008, 05:14 PM
In addition to all this hype, what has Wright said that has the white folks in a tizzy?

A few of the things he said weren't really racist per say but one stance that concerns me a lot more than racism is him complaining about the US government supporting "state sponsored terrorism against the Palestinians"
I want to hear what Obama's stance one that subject is...because it is VERY important to know.

C&CDean
3/18/2008, 05:16 PM
A few of the things he said weren't really racist per say but one stance that concerns me a lot more than racism is him complaining about the US government supporting "state sponsored terrorism against the Palestinians"
I want to hear what Obama's stance one that subject is...because it is VERY important to know.

Uh, hello? You're forgetting that he's a polished speaker and looks good doing it. All that other stuff is well......just stuff.

SoonerProphet
3/18/2008, 05:17 PM
Are you really that ignorant?

Careful with the denial and ignorant schtick there slick. Please, do tell what about the Rev. Wright has been so far out there? One thing I have come across is that AIDS was spread by whitey, which is indeed far out. But some of the other items have been somewhat factual according to historical accounts.

Just wondering what comments have the folks at Wall Street Journal crying racism.

Okla-homey
3/18/2008, 05:19 PM
If your Uncle/Father/Preacher or some other person you considered a close mentor said something off-color would you disown and villify him? Would you blow 20 years of a relationship out of the airlock over a series of soundbytes?


If I wanted to be POTUS I would. Dang skippy. Uncle/Father/Preacher would get kicked to the curb. Of course, I don't wanna be POTUS. I'd rather hang out here, drink beer, love on the wife, be a nice person, make some honest coin by the sweat of my brain and try to help lift up the poor in my free time.

One more thing, if a politician with presidential aspirations publicly annoints someone as a "close mentor," said politician better make sure that dude has been properly vetted. That apparently did not happen here. That, my friend, is a glaring example of why this guy is not yet ready for the big-time. And you know what, he's not even the Dem nominee yet. Wait til August. I predict what will happen to this guy will make "Swift-boating" look like good-natured joshing by comparison.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
3/18/2008, 05:20 PM
A few of the things he said weren't really racist per say but one stance that concerns me a lot more than racism is him complaining about the US government supporting "state sponsored terrorism against the Palestinians"
I want to hear what Obama's stance one that subject is...because it is VERY important to know.After all we've seen from Obama, now, you would still consider voting for him,...for anything?

JohnnyMack
3/18/2008, 05:23 PM
Uh, hello? You're forgetting that he's a polished speaker and looks good doing it. All that other stuff is well......just stuff.

And McCain is the token white father. Regardless of his voting history, his agenda and his policy, he's the right choice because he's the Republican nominee. And if this Reverend Wright issue bogs down the Obama campaign and Billary takes the nomination the attacks on her character will ensue. It's politics as usual in America. Gotta love it!

SoonerProphet
3/18/2008, 05:24 PM
Regardless of what lame-brained ideas have been mentioned by Wright, I think the assumption that all blacks, see Obama, believe the same thing is a bit of a stretch.

BigRedJed
3/18/2008, 05:31 PM
Careful with the denial... ...ignorant schtick there slick...
I second that. Calling another poster "ignorant," "racist," or whatever, borders on personal attack. It's possible to argue your POV, passionately even, without attacking a poster who disagrees with you.

Carry on.

SoonerProphet
3/18/2008, 05:39 PM
A few of the things he said weren't really racist per say but one stance that concerns me a lot more than racism is him complaining about the US government supporting "state sponsored terrorism against the Palestinians"
I want to hear what Obama's stance one that subject is...because it is VERY important to know.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/832668.html

shaun4411
3/18/2008, 05:49 PM
I second that. Calling another poster "ignorant," "racist," or whatever, borders on personal attack. It's possible to argue your POV, passionately even, without attacking a poster who disagrees with you.

Carry on.

with that in mind, can you make personal attacks against someone's point of view? i.e. calling it a f*ggot, and stupid, lame, ghey, gay, gey, gaey, geay, racist, or dumb? as opposed to berating the actual person?

VeeJay
3/18/2008, 05:57 PM
"The U.S. of KKK A." tirade would probably be enough to turn most folks off.

I grew up in a segregated society in Mississippi in the 60's and 70's. Jackson, MS didn't have black police officers until 1976. As a little kid, we lived about five miles from the spot where Medgar Evers was gunned down. The man who killed him was acquitted at the hands of a racist judge portrayed in "Ghosts of Mississippi." I went to high school with the judge's kids. When they finally arrested the old bastud, the Hinds County deputy escorting him for the CNN cameras was a childhood friend of mine.

So I guess it's safe to say I grew up around racial sh*t that seemed to never end. It's probably one of the reasons I left Mississippi at age 29 and never remotely considered going back (except to visit family).

Someone such as Obama may be what the country needs to finally cross the racial divide and bring us closer together (goddam - I'm starting to sound like Clinton). But I don't think this is the time and he's not the guy to do it, although he's close. He's playing on a mix of an educated speaker, a quick thinker and an extremely smooth politician who can appeal to the masses, and secondly, he's playing to an overriding guilt from whitey that won't assuage itself until we all join Madonna in a "Like A Prayer" style movement and tearfully say we're sorry.

I do not think he's going to cross that divide with someone like Jeremiah Wright watching his back.

BigRedJed
3/18/2008, 06:17 PM
with that in mind, can you make personal attacks against someone's point of view? i.e. calling it a f*ggot, and stupid, lame, ghey, gay, gey, gaey, geay, racist, or dumb? as opposed to berating the actual person?
Well, I guess that sort of depends. In my personal opinion, it's OK to say something like "well, that's dumb." But to call someone an idiot constitutes a personal attack. It's a fine line, and requires that you exercise some judgement and personal restraint.

I'm pretty sure that most rational people can understand the difference between passionately (even vehemently) disagreeing with someone else's point of view without attacking them as a person.

Did you really need to ask this question?

Scott D
3/18/2008, 06:28 PM
The viewpoints contributed in this thread amuse me.

AlbqSooner
3/18/2008, 08:40 PM
Imagine that a videotape had come to light that showed Senator John McCain's pastor making vicious, hateful comments about America and cruel racist statements about American's of color. Suppose this same pastor had given a lifetime achievement award to former KKK leader David Duke and had traveled to Europe with Duke to meet with neo-Nazi terrorists.
Imagine that McCain and his wife had attended this church for 20 years; that they had been married in this church by this pastor; and, that their children had been baptised by this pastor.
Now picture McCain titling his autobiography after a phrase from one of this pastor's sermons, writing that the man was his mentor and putting him on McCains presidential campaign staff as a confidant and trusted advisor. Picture further that McCain said he didn't agree with what the man said, but still could not disavow him.
Would any of you consider voting for McCain under those circumstances?

soonerscuba
3/18/2008, 09:10 PM
"The U.S. of KKK A." tirade would probably be enough to turn most folks off.

I grew up in a segregated society in Mississippi in the 60's and 70's. Jackson, MS didn't have black police officers until 1976. As a little kid, we lived about five miles from the spot where Medgar Evers was gunned down. The man who killed him was acquitted at the hands of a racist judge portrayed in "Ghosts of Mississippi." I went to high school with the judge's kids. When they finally arrested the old bastud, the Hinds County deputy escorting him for the CNN cameras was a childhood friend of mine.

So I guess it's safe to say I grew up around racial sh*t that seemed to never end. It's probably one of the reasons I left Mississippi at age 29 and never remotely considered going back (except to visit family).

Someone such as Obama may be what the country needs to finally cross the racial divide and bring us closer together (goddam - I'm starting to sound like Clinton). But I don't think this is the time and he's not the guy to do it, although he's close. He's playing on a mix of an educated speaker, a quick thinker and an extremely smooth politician who can appeal to the masses, and secondly, he's playing to an overriding guilt from whitey that won't assuage itself until we all join Madonna in a "Like A Prayer" style movement and tearfully say we're sorry.

I do not think he's going to cross that divide with someone like Jeremiah Wright watching his back.


I agree with a lot of what you are saying, except for the idea that Obama himself is riding white guilt. I think that people are trying to project that upon him. White guilt allows Al Sharpton to pay the rent and buy ugly suits, basically guys that were never real successes themselves, I think these are the ones trying to play the white guilt card. I think that if Obama had a magic wand, he would wave this crowd off. Blacks are voting for Obama because he is a black and an electable Dem (while not PC, the numbers don't lie, he's riding about 90% in that demo), and he doesn't need this attention, that said, I still think he can win and am interested to see what a teflon Democrat will be like.

Okla-homey
3/18/2008, 10:10 PM
I still think he can win and am interested to see what a teflon Democrat will be like.

IF footage doesn't surface that shows BHO in the pew nodding affirmatively and "amen"-ing hateful and vitriolic Wright-isms. If that happens, stick a fork in him. You can bet HRC and JSM's people are frantically reviewing every inch of footage ever shot in that church as I type this.

Heck, I still remember when that tall goomer Sen. Lott had to step down as Majority Leader because he innocently said something nice about old Sen. Strom Thurmond on Thurmond's 134th birthday.

Big Red Ron
3/18/2008, 10:16 PM
Barrack Hussein Obama is racist to wards his heritage that isn't politically expedient for him.

He's a disingenuous a-hole as far as I'm concerned.

I mean the dude's half white and goes to a racist nut job church, combined with his wife's comments about being proud of her country for the first time is pathetic.

soonerscuba
3/18/2008, 10:55 PM
IF footage doesn't surface that shows BHO in the pew nodding affirmatively and "amen"-ing hateful and vitriolic Wright-isms. If that happens, stick a fork in him. You can bet HRC and JSM's people are frantically reviewing every inch of footage ever shot in that church as I type this.

Heck, I still remember when that tall goomer Sen. Lott had to step down as Majority Leader because he innocently said something nice about old Sen. Strom Thurmond on Thurmond's 134th birthday.

Oh, I can assure that McCain gets my vote if Hillary gets the nod. While I have a great deal of respect for McCain and think he could be an able president, I disagree with his current positions on the war, taxes and civil liberties, but Hillary is Rove in a pants suit, and I've had about 11 years too much of slash and burn politics. Basically there are political fences to be mended, and Hillary is the odd man out on even having a prayer of doing such a thing.

Big Red Ron
3/18/2008, 11:09 PM
I agree with a lot of what you are saying, except for the idea that Obama himself is riding white guilt. I think that people are trying to project that upon him. White guilt allows Al Sharpton to pay the rent and buy ugly suits, basically guys that were never real successes themselves, I think these are the ones trying to play the white guilt card. I think that if Obama had a magic wand, he would wave this crowd off. Blacks are voting for Obama because he is a black and an electable Dem (while not PC, the numbers don't lie, he's riding about 90% in that demo), and he doesn't need this attention, that said, I still think he can win and am interested to see what a teflon Democrat will be like.Don't you think that him being half white and raised by a single white Mom, inherits in him massive doses of white guilt. He's not the right guy for this movement, he's a key figure and maybe even a bellwether in that regard but I just doubt he can pass the scrutiny involved in the general.

Bill Clinton was as much of a Teflon Dem as you will ever get. He was impeached, one of only two but he held on. Dude was crooked and even his former supporters will admit that. He lasted 8 years, Teflon got him there.

soonerscuba
3/18/2008, 11:34 PM
Bill Clinton was as much of a Teflon Dem as you will ever get. He was impeached, one of only two but he held on. Dude was crooked and even his former supporters will admit that. He lasted 8 years, Teflon got him there.

Not teflony enough for me. I will not be satisfied until a Democrat sells weapons to Iran and walks. ;)

Big Red Ron
3/18/2008, 11:37 PM
Not teflony enough for me. I will not be satisfied until a Democrat sells weapons to Iran and walks. ;)
Shoot Bill sold missle technology to China and walked ;)

At least Reagan had a good side of a good ol fashion civil war to fund. ;)

soonerscuba
3/18/2008, 11:40 PM
Shoot Bill sold missle technology to China and walked ;)

At least Reagan had a good side of a good ol fashion civil war to fund. ;)
A) That's bidness my friend, I hear documents are worth double if you stuff them down your pants.

B) Oh, if by "good side" you mean "both sides" then yes.

TheHumanAlphabet
3/19/2008, 12:01 AM
O-blah-ma is full of crap. There is NO way he didn't know of or hear of this so-called reverend's hate speech. I don't know about you, but I pretty much knew/know what my minister was saying and how he thought. What kills me is that the media is giving O-blah-ma a pass on the racist thoughts and policies of this church. Not allowing whitey memebership, helping Farrakhan and Qaddafi. This church perports to be a member of the United Church of Christ, though while liberal, I can't see how they would condone this doctrine or allow the church to use its affiliation like this.

O-blah-ma has much more to atone and should come out forcibly and denounce his "uncle" "reverend" friend. JMO.

For the church to make a video of that type of "sermon" and there were many - more than one, then it must be a regular doctrine type message and no one had a problem with it to put it on the internet. Telling.

O-blah-ma gives his "major Award" speech to a small group of "invited" friends. Great. Give the speech to a group of people in rural Oklahoma, you would get my attention then.

The doctrine that the church espouses is just disgusting. I know that crap is out there, but if ole whitey was saying it, it would be all over the media. Just ask David Duke.

StoopTroup
3/19/2008, 12:02 AM
Most of us wouldn't even know Obama's Preacher existed if it wasn't for Obama running for President.

If his preacher believes what he said to be true and he is a religious intellectual, it would seem to me he'd understand that BHO was trying to help put an end to what the Preacher views as an Obamanation. :D

BHO handled this in the only way he could and yes it would seem he might seem to be sidestepping this situation and trying to have it both ways...yet he started off stating that he didn't agree with the Preacher and continued on to say that America has more pressing issues right now.

What OHB's Preacher said isn't anything near as wacko as what Louis Farrakhan has said in his many National Attention grabbing rants.

If folks want to use this to excute his run for the Presidency, then so be it...

I just think it's not as big a deal as some folks would like it to be.

I do remember though the old saying...."You are judged by the company you keep".

I'm not sure that's always the right thing to do...but...it's the way things have been for quite a long time.

TheHumanAlphabet
3/19/2008, 12:25 AM
Here is the UCC response according to their head man...




Over the weekend members of our church and others have been subjected to the relentless airing of two or three brief video clips of sermons by the Rev. Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr., pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ for thirty-six years and, for over half of those years, pastor of Senator Barack Obama and his family. These video clips, and news stories about them, have been served up with frenzied and heated commentary by media personalities expressing shock that such language and sentiments could be uttered from the pulpit.
One is tempted to ask whether these commentators ever listen to the overcharged rhetoric of their own opinion shows. Even more to the point is to wonder whether they have a working knowledge of the history of preaching in the United States from the unrelentingly grim language of New England election day sermons to the fiery rhetoric of the Black church prophetic tradition. Maybe they prefer the false prophets with their happy homilies in Jeremiah who say to the people: "You shall not see the sword, nor shall you have famine, but I will give you true peace in this place." To which God responds, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name; I did not send them, nor did I command them or speak to them. They are prophesying to you a lying vision, worthless divination, and the deceit of their own minds. . . . By sword and famine those prophets shall be consumed," (Jeremiah 14.14-15). The Biblical Jeremiah was coarse and provocative. Faithfulness, not respectability was the order of the day then. And now?
What's really going on here? First, it may state the obvious to point out that these television and radio shows have very little interest in Trinity Church or Jeremiah Wright. Those who sifted through hours of sermons searching for a few lurid phrases and those who have aired them repeatedly have only one intention. It is to wound a presidential candidate. In the process a congregation that does exceptional ministry and a pastor who has given his life to shape those ministries is caricatured and demonized. You don't have to be an Obama supporter to be alarmed at this. Will Clinton's United Methodist Church be next? Or McCain's Episcopal Church? Wouldn't we have been just as alarmed had it been Huckabee's Southern Baptist Church, or Romney's Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
Many of us would prefer to avoid the stark and startling language Pastor Wright used in these clips. But what was his real crime? He is condemned for using a mild "obscenity" in reference to the United States. This week we mark the fifth anniversary of the war in Iraq, a war conceived in deception and prosecuted in foolish arrogance. Nearly four thousand cherished Americans have been killed, countless more wounded, and tens of thousands of Iraqis slaughtered. Where is the real obscenity here? True patriotism requires a degree of self-criticism, even self-judgment that may not always be easy or genteel. Pastor Wright's judgment may be starker and more sweeping than many of us are prepared to accept. But is the soul of our nation served any better by the polite prayers and gentle admonitions that have gone without a real hearing for these five years while the dying and destruction continues?
We might like to think that racism is a thing of the past, that Martin Luther King's harmonious multi-racial vision, articulated in his speech at the Lincoln Memorial in 1963 and then struck down by an assassin's bullet in Memphis in 1968, has somehow been resurrected and now reigns throughout the land. Significant progress has been made. A black man is a legitimate candidate for President of the United States. A black woman serves as Secretary of State. The accomplishments are profound. But on the gritty streets of Chicago's south side where Trinity has planted itself, race continues to play favorites in failing urban school systems, unresponsive health care systems, crumbling infrastructure, and meager economic development. Are we to pretend all is well because much is, in fact, better than it used to be? Is it racist to name the racial divides that continue to afflict our nation, and to do so loudly? How ironic that a pastor and congregation which, for forty-five years, has cast its lot with a predominantly white denomination, participating fully in its wider church life and contributing generously to it, would be accused of racial exclusion and a failure to reach for racial reconciliation.
The gospel narrative of Palm Sunday's entrance into Jerusalem concludes with the overturning of the money changers' tables in the Temple courtyard. Here wealth and power and greed were challenged for the way the poor were oppressed to the point of exclusion from a share in the religious practices of the Temple. Today we watch as the gap between the obscenely wealthy and the obscenely poor widens. More and more of our neighbors are relegated to minimal health care or to no health care at all. Foreclosures destroy families while unscrupulous lenders seek bailouts from regulators who turned a blind eye to the impending crisis. Should the preacher today respond to this with only a whisper and a sigh?
Is Pastor Wright to be ridiculed and condemned for refusing to play the court prophet, blessing land and sovereign while pledging allegiance to our preoccupation with wealth and our fascination with weapons? In the United Church of Christ we honor diversity. For nearly four centuries we have respected dissent and have struggled to maintain the freedom of the pulpit. Not every pastor in the United Church of Christ will want to share Pastor Wright's rhetoric or his politics. Not every member will rise to shout "Amen!" But I trust we will all struggle in our own way to resist the lure of respectable religion that seeks to displace evangelical faith. For what this nation needs is not so much polite piety as the rough and radical word of the prophet calling us to repentance. And, as we struggle with that ancient calling, I pray we will be shrewd enough to name the hypocrisy of those who decry the mixing of religion and politics in order to serve their own political ends.


Uhmm, the media did ridicule Romney and Huckabee. No one spoke up for them in the ministry...Didn't here from you when they were being excoriated.

Dio
3/19/2008, 01:07 AM
Let's call a spade a spade for chrissakes.

:eek:


:D


And for an agent of "change", Obama sure is spinning like every other politician on the planet on this one. How long til we hear about his romps with teh hookers?

Dio
3/19/2008, 01:17 AM
For what this nation needs is not so much polite piety as the rough and radical word of the prophet calling us to repentance.

So now the UCC is for repentance? Hope that doesn't get back to their gay members.

Dio
3/19/2008, 01:18 AM
Heh- I said "gay members"

SoonerProphet
3/19/2008, 08:34 AM
One more time for kicks and giggles.

Are the comments by a black preacher who has expressed doubts about US foreign policy and its unintended consequences judged the same as white preachers who espouse similiar viewpoints as to why America was attacked?

If they are judged differently, why? Keep in mind that McCain has called Rod Parsley a "spiritual advisor" and Reagan, Ford, and Sr. invited Francis Schaeffer for lunch.

JohnnyMack
3/19/2008, 09:11 AM
Uhmm, the media did ridicule Romney and Huckabee. No one spoke up for them in the ministry...Didn't here from you when they were being excoriated.

When did the media ridicule either one of them? They asked whether or not Romney's Mormon background was an issue, but how is that ridicule?

JohnnyMack
3/19/2008, 09:12 AM
One more time for kicks and giggles.

Are the comments by a black preacher who has expressed doubts about US foreign policy and its unintended consequences judged the same as white preachers who espouse similiar viewpoints as to why America was attacked?

If they are judged differently, why? Keep in mind that McCain has called Rod Parsley a "spiritual advisor" and Reagan, Ford, and Sr. invited Francis Schaeffer for lunch.

The Neo-cons have found the chink in the Obama armor and are fervently picking at it right now. They'll have to get back to you on that one.

Sooner Born Sooner Bred
3/19/2008, 09:15 AM
The Neo-cons have found the chink in the Obama armor and are fervently picking at it right now. They'll have to get back to you on that one.
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p250/robert817/cats/racist.gif

Condescending Sooner
3/19/2008, 09:20 AM
Careful with the denial and ignorant schtick there slick. Please, do tell what about the Rev. Wright has been so far out there? One thing I have come across is that AIDS was spread by whitey, which is indeed far out. But some of the other items have been somewhat factual according to historical accounts.

Just wondering what comments have the folks at Wall Street Journal crying racism.

I can't believe you cannot comprehend what Wright said was out there and offensive to normal people, so I will name a few things.

The US is to blame for 9/11
The US supports state terrorism
The Govt. created AIDS as tool to use against blacks
The Govt. gives drugs to blacks

And last but not least, "Not God Bless America, but God Damn America".

You may agree with him on all the points, but to act like you cannot understand why people would be upset about it is just stupidity.

C&CDean
3/19/2008, 09:20 AM
The Neo-cons have found the chink in the Obama armor and are fervently picking at it right now. They'll have to get back to you on that one.

The chink? The guy's armor is like swiss cheese - at best. This is just another big ol' ****ing hole.

Here's the deal. A bunch of you people like Obama simply because he preaches "change." And he talks pretty. I'm old enough to know that you'd better be careful what you ask for. Change for change's sake is never, EVER good. If you've got an ******* for a boss right now, at least you know he's an ******* and you know how to manage within that system. When you get the new guy everybody's clamoring for, give it a few months, and you're gonna go "damn, I wish we still had ......... in charge."

Obama is serving his purpose well. He' getting some folks to think a little bit. However, he isn't anywhere close to being "the answer." In fact, he's closer to completely ****ing it all up than being someone who can come in a do something special for America. Try to take a step back and look at the big picture. All you Obama lovers are like the dumbasses that have to own that shiny new car in the first year it comes out. No matter what it costs. Never a good decision. Never.

SoonerProphet
3/19/2008, 09:30 AM
I can't believe you cannot comprehend what Wright said was out there and offensive to normal people, so I will name a few things.

The US is to blame for 9/11
The US supports state terrorism
The Govt. created AIDS as tool to use against blacks
The Govt. gives drugs to blacks

And last but not least, "Not God Bless America, but God Damn America".

You may agree with him on all the points, but to act like you cannot understand why people would be upset about it is just stupidity.

Thanks for answering. I can see what is wrong with #3, but the others are legitimate points of view. Agree or not, there is some truth to those statements.

Political correctness in any fashion, left or right, is disturbing. From Horowitz's stupidity at FrontPage to the lefts "hate speech" bull sh*t. It is all a shibboleth meant to stifle debate and reason.

So how about my second point? If Parsley can make outrageous comments about Islam, or Robertson, Falwell, et. al. make comments regarding why we are to blame for 9/11, how come no one is crying over that stupid stuff either. Couldn't be the old political double standard at work could it.

Okla-homey
3/19/2008, 09:38 AM
So how about my second point? If Parsley can make outrageous comments about Islam, or Robertson, Falwell, et. al. make comments regarding why we are to blame for 9/11, how come no one is crying over that stupid stuff either. Couldn't be the old political double standard at work could it.

or it could be, that most Americans generally agree, while most won't dare speak it, with what those guys have had to say about Islam and its adherents.

SoonerProphet
3/19/2008, 09:43 AM
most...bull, most don't no diddly squat about Islam, political history, or what goes on outside of Mayberry RFD. just what preacher man tells them to think.

JohnnyMack
3/19/2008, 09:54 AM
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p250/robert817/cats/racist.gif

Heh.

Condescending Sooner
3/19/2008, 09:58 AM
Thanks for answering. I can see what is wrong with #3, but the others are legitimate points of view. Agree or not, there is some truth to those statements.

Political correctness in any fashion, left or right, is disturbing. From Horowitz's stupidity at FrontPage to the lefts "hate speech" bull sh*t. It is all a shibboleth meant to stifle debate and reason.

So how about my second point? If Parsley can make outrageous comments about Islam, or Robertson, Falwell, et. al. make comments regarding why we are to blame for 9/11, how come no one is crying over that stupid stuff either. Couldn't be the old political double standard at work could it.

So you think the government gives illegal drugs to blacks? I remember a lot of people being upset about Robertson and Falwell said when it came out. I believe most people think Robertson and Falwell are nuts and don't get that excited about what they say. I don't remember either being a mentor to a presidential candidate or have a candidate that had been a member of their chuch for over 20 years.

JohnnyMack
3/19/2008, 10:03 AM
I can't believe you cannot comprehend what Wright said was out there and offensive to normal people, so I will name a few things.

The US is to blame for 9/11
The US supports state terrorism


If you can't or won't allow yourself to understand this concept than you have your head in the sand "Tuba-style".

Condescending Sooner
3/19/2008, 10:35 AM
If you can't or won't allow yourself to understand this concept than you have your head in the sand "Tuba-style".

Which president do you think was responsible for 9/11?

JohnnyMack
3/19/2008, 10:55 AM
Which president do you think was responsible for 9/11?

I'll answer your question with a question.

Was Pearl Harbor an unprovoked attack?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
3/19/2008, 11:01 AM
I'll answer your question with a question.

Was Pearl Harbor an unprovoked attack?OK, both you guys answer both of those questions, pls.

C&CDean
3/19/2008, 11:03 AM
This thread is rapidly cascading into the stupid pool.

JohnnyMack
3/19/2008, 11:04 AM
This thread is rapidly cascading into the stupid pool.

You'd be the lifeguard.

C&CDean
3/19/2008, 11:05 AM
You'd be the lifeguard.

Somebody's gotta pull your drowning *** out.

MrJimBeam
3/19/2008, 11:13 AM
I'll answer your question with a question.

Was Pearl Harbor an unprovoked attack?

Pearl Harbot was not unprovoked. We stood in the way of Japan's complete domination of Asia, so they bombed us.

We support Israel's right to exist, so Osama bomb us.

The outcome will be the same for Osama as it was for Japan. And Obama and his "pastor" will be on the losing side of history.

JohnnyMack
3/19/2008, 11:14 AM
Somebody's gotta pull your drowning *** out.

I gots me some of this:

http://www.nwmicrobrews.com/Founders/Kentucky_Breakfast.jpg

We shall have it at the next tailgate.

Dio
3/19/2008, 11:19 AM
OK, I gotta hear this. How is America responsible for Pearl Harbor? And I suppose it was America who raped every woman from Guam to Manilla with the Japs dicks, too?

NormanPride
3/19/2008, 11:19 AM
That **** looks tasty as hell.

JohnnyMack
3/19/2008, 11:30 AM
OK, I gotta hear this. How is America responsible for Pearl Harbor? And I suppose it was America who raped every woman from Guam to Manilla with the Japs dicks, too?

I'm saying that in the minds of the Japanese launching an attack against Pearl Harbor was a necessity. The trade embargoes and boycotting of Japanese goods forced (in the minds of the Japanese) their hands. The Japanese had been pushed too far by the USA and they opted to try and secure naval superiority in one fell swoop. I'm not saying the United States is "responsible" for the attack on Pearl Harbor, rather that there are mitigating circumstances surrounding the attack. Hirohito didn't just wake up one day and throw a dart at a map and say, "attack them nao. plzkthx." when it hit Hawaii.

shaun4411
3/19/2008, 11:51 AM
I'm saying that in the minds of the Japanese launching an attack against Pearl Harbor was a necessity. The trade embargoes and boycotting of Japanese goods forced (in the minds of the Japanese) their hands. The Japanese had been pushed too far by the USA and they opted to try and secure naval superiority in one fell swoop. I'm not saying the United States is "responsible" for the attack on Pearl Harbor, rather that there are mitigating circumstances surrounding the attack. Hirohito didn't just wake up one day and throw a dart at a map and say, "attack them nao. plzkthx." when it hit Hawaii.

some history:


Admiral Yamamoto had been planning the attack on pearl harbor for up to a year before the event, during "peaceful" negotiations with the usa. it wasnt a "provoked" attack, but japan understood they needed navan superiority in roder to get power in the pacific rim and have their stupid greater east asia co-prosperity sphere. it wasnt in recourse to us blockades. to that point, the usa had an isolationist policy. (bad choice). this obviously spelled doom in the end for the japanese anyways.

soonerscuba
3/19/2008, 11:58 AM
We all know that Bill Clinton is actually responsible for Pearl Harbor. Newbs.

JohnnyMack
3/19/2008, 12:06 PM
it wasnt a "provoked" attack, but japan understood they needed navan superiority in roder to get power in the pacific rim and have their stupid greater east asia co-prosperity sphere. it wasnt in recourse to us blockades.

I didn't say it was a recourse to blockades. I said it was a response to the embargo/boycott policies. The blockade didn't help by any means. And as far as having a plan in place, I would imagine our military has lots of plans dealing with lots of scenarios. I imagine we had our own plan of how to deal with Japan as well.

Okla-homey
3/19/2008, 12:07 PM
One constant in history is this; a few years into protracted wars, no one cares or remembers why they started. Such debates are generally the exclusive province of twiddling academics and foreign policy wonks. Meanwhile, mothers, wives and children lament and grieve the loss of their sons, husbands and fathers.

The Japanese can make a dozen arguments justifying their attack on us in 1941. Just as we can make a dozen arguments why the attack was unprovoked. IMHO, the same thing holds true for the present GWOT -- just like every other war in history.

As an aside, the thing that is particulalrly interesting to me about the current war is there isn't a substantial and organized peace movement -- just a relatively few loonies and crackpots. And they've even piped-down lately. Anyone heard from Cindy Sheehan recently? Even the "peace candidates" HRC and BHO have refused to categorically state they intend to disengage from SWA if elected. I have repeatedly attributed that phenomenon to the fact the kids getting hurt are there of their own will.

shaun4411
3/19/2008, 12:09 PM
I didn't say it was a recourse to blockades. I said it was a response to the embargo/boycott policies. The blockade didn't help by any means. And as far as having a plan in place, I would imagine our military has lots of plans dealing with lots of scenarios. I imagine we had our own plan of how to deal with Japan as well.

we had a plan of action for all of our enemies. it was called the manhatten project. another thing to consider however is that prior to the onset our entrance into ww2, we were not a superpower. by 1945, there was little doubt.

Civicus_Sooner
3/19/2008, 12:13 PM
The Neo-cons have found the chink in the Obama armor and are fervently picking at it right now. They'll have to get back to you on that one.
Make no mistake, this isn't Republicans or neo-cons, it's the Clinton's. They aren't in the Democrat business, they're in the Clinton business. Don't ever forget that either.

dolemitesooner
3/19/2008, 12:18 PM
Go ahead. It wouldn't be the first time you took the stupid train.

He makes a good point. All we know is what the media puts out.

Just like all people know of you taht have seen you on the boards is that your a DICK all the time, but in real life not so much.:D

JohnnyMack
3/19/2008, 12:18 PM
Make no mistake, this isn't Republicans or neo-cons, it's the Clinton's. They aren't in the Democrat business, they're in the Clinton business. Don't ever forget that either.

You know I've been thinking about who dug this stuff up. I was under the impression it was Fox News? Mebbe Billary slipped it to Fox News and assumed everyone would think it was the Neo-Con/McCain movement that was responsible for it. I wouldn't put it past them.

JohnnyMack
3/19/2008, 12:20 PM
As an aside, the thing that is particulalrly interesting to me about the current war is there isn't a substantial and organized peace movement -- just a relatively few loonies and crackpots. And they've even piped-down lately. Anyone heard from Cindy Sheehan recently? Even the "peace candidates" HRC and BHO have refused to categorically state they intend to disengage from SWA if elected. I have repeatedly attributed that phenomenon to the fact the kids getting hurt are there of their own will.

There was a piece on the radio I heard just yesterday that echoed that exact sentiment. Said the draft is what caused the protests in Vietnam, not necessarily the policy itself.

Pricetag
3/19/2008, 12:24 PM
True patriotism requires a degree of self-criticism, even self-judgment that may not always be easy or genteel.
I like this part. It seems like these days, even acknowledging that we as a nation could make a mistake, much less pull some shady stuff in our own interests, gets you shouted down for being an America hater.

JohnnyMack
3/19/2008, 12:25 PM
I like this part. It seems like these days, even acknowledging that we as a nation could make a mistake, much less pull some shady stuff in our own interests, gets you shouted down for being an America hater.

What's that old Goering quote?

Animal Mother
3/19/2008, 12:31 PM
After all we've seen from Obama, now, you would still consider voting for him,...for anything?

Why ask that question since you've never considered voting for him and wouldn't if he cured cancer, poverty and the economy in one fell swoop!!!
Man I love an opportunity to use "one fell swoop" !!!

Condescending Sooner
3/19/2008, 12:32 PM
I'll answer your question with a question.

Was Pearl Harbor an unprovoked attack?


Why can't you just answer the question?

dolemitesooner
3/19/2008, 12:34 PM
If it came out tomorrow that Obama was a mass murderer of little white babies a bunch of y'all would be "but his speech today was so fantastic that I can let that one slide...." Meh.

Let's call a spade a spade for chrissakes.

He hangs out with looney tunes. He receives support from Farrakhan. Everything about his past history is tainted and questionable - at best. He has no real political experience at a level that would qualify him to be POTUS.

But dang y'all, he's one smoove talker and looks good doing it. Plus, he said he's gonna "change everything." You people are beyond silly. And you'd better be careful, he just might change everything after all.
You are really killing me today with your ignorance. First of all Multiple times now BO has denouced Farrakan and he has nothing to do with Barrack Obama, just because Farrakan supports him does not mean he supports Farrakan. I just got done reading Dreams of my Father and the book was written even before he was elected to the Illinois congress, and twice that I remember in the book he calls Farrakan a radical.

Secondly I want to know what about his past is tainted. Thats a ****ing blanket statement that has no depth that I am sure you heard while walking by a tv. I mean Yes he recived campaign money from a guy in Chicago whom he also bought land from who was a shady character Tony Reza or something like that is what I think his name is. He has also said he made mistakes there. Besaides that and his minister saying "dAMN America" What is tainted? You bring nothing you just make ****ing statments about things that you know nothing about.

Also as to this whole minister thing. The guy may be a nut I dont know all I have seen is clips from one tape where he talks about "daming america."

If he murdered white babies I would not support him

Also WHo are these other looney tunes.

These things in peoples past can be raised about all 3 canidates

Clinton- Do you really want me to start naming things that have been questionable thoughout her life. I think not (not that I believe half this **** or care)

McCain - There have been multiple things said about his Campians budget and where some money has come from, also the whole extra marrital affair. (Not that I believe half this **** or care really)

So come on Dean don't start saying other people are morons because they don't support your canidate. Thats ****ing iggnorant.

SoonerProphet
3/19/2008, 12:35 PM
What's that old Goering quote?

All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

JohnnyMack
3/19/2008, 12:36 PM
Werd to yer mizzle.

dolemitesooner
3/19/2008, 12:38 PM
Which president do you think was responsible for 9/11?
None and multiple is the answer.

First off no ****ing president asked for this to happenso your question is stupid, but if you want to get technical.

Bush, and Clinton

Clinton because he did not do anything about the first attacks of OBL, THEY ALL TOOK PLACE DURING HIS WATCH AND THERE WAS LITTLE TO NO RESPONSE. Kenya, Tanzaniza, and the Uss Cole.

Bush I guess you can blame him beacuse it took place while he was prez.

Your question is retared

Animal Mother
3/19/2008, 12:45 PM
This thread is rapidly cascading into the stupid pool.


Channel.

Animal Mother
3/19/2008, 12:48 PM
We all know that Bill Clinton is actually responsible for Pearl Harbor. Newbs.

No man! He had sex with Pearl Bailey!!!

Civicus_Sooner
3/19/2008, 12:48 PM
If I had to pull a Deano and put %'s on it. 911 was 90% Clinton and 10% Bush.

dolemitesooner
3/19/2008, 12:51 PM
If I had to pull a Deano and put %'s on it. 911 was 90% Clinton and 10% Bush.
Ok. Cool Now why does this even matter?

Civicus_Sooner
3/19/2008, 12:54 PM
Ok. Cool Now why does this even matter?
It matters when discussing what type of foreign policy do we follow, as explained by the Dems and Repubs.

BigRedJed
3/19/2008, 12:54 PM
If I had to pull a Deano and put %'s on it. 911 was 90% Clinton and 10% Bush.
Nope. You forgot to assign a percentage to British imperialism and centuries of tribal conflict in the middle east.

BigRedJed
3/19/2008, 12:56 PM
Oh, and also you should include middle east oil resources and institutionalized western oil dependency.

BigRedJed
3/19/2008, 12:56 PM
I blame Henry Ford.

C&CDean
3/19/2008, 01:07 PM
Wait. I almost forgot. Doleo read Obama's book so now he's an Obama expert and ****.

If you're going to be another one of his lemmings go ahead on. Preach the change my brotha. You and your possy of one JM might get what you're hoping for. For the sake of America, I hope not.

And personally, I just think you dig him cause he's black like you, and we've already discussed how stupid it is to vote for somebody cause he's black/female/gay/racist/baptist/mormon/white etc.

Animal Mother
3/19/2008, 01:11 PM
Ok. Cool Now why does this even matter?

It doesn’t matter that’s the problem. When someone has nothing to say they usually say something that means nothing. Dolemite has me in his corner even if he doesn't need me and he doesn't.
Some people have what they see as legitimate reasons to support Barack and some have what they see as legitimate reasons not to support him. Then after the lines are drawn the crap flinging begins and we get questions about Pearl Bailey and 7-11s. People don't debate in this day and age, they just ASSassinate other's characters.

shaun4411
3/19/2008, 01:13 PM
None and multiple is the answer.

First off no ****ing president asked for this to happenso your question is stupid, but if you want to get technical.

Bush, and Clinton

Clinton because he did not do anything about the first attacks of OBL, THEY ALL TOOK PLACE DURING HIS WATCH AND THERE WAS LITTLE TO NO RESPONSE. Kenya, Tanzaniza, and the Uss Cole.

Bush I guess you can blame him beacuse it took place while he was prez.

Your question is retared


an attack like that cant be orchestrated in 10 months. it just cant. meaning they started planning for that attack before they knew who would be the next president. and if you go by history, the vp of a two term president has a high(er) liklihood of winning the election. for all these crazy nutjubs knew, theyd have done this with a big smelly *womanparts* in office. so how in any way would bush have been "at fault" ?

if i were to assign percentages myself, I'd say 100% al qaeda. call me old fashioned, but i tend to hold responsible people for their actions.

picasso
3/19/2008, 01:14 PM
I shant ever listen to any of his speeches.

thanks.

Animal Mother
3/19/2008, 01:15 PM
Wait. I almost forgot. Doleo read Obama's book so now he's an Obama expert and ****.

If you're going to be another one of his lemmings go ahead on. Preach the change my brotha. You and your possy of one JM might get what you're hoping for. For the sake of America, I hope not.

And personally, I just think you dig him cause he's black like you, and we've already discussed how stupid it is to vote for somebody cause he's black/female/gay/racist/baptist/mormon/white etc.


So are we going to speak to how ignorant it is to vote against someone because of those same factors? If this discussion was any more of the position that different equals wicked I'd think I was back in Sunday school with the Baptists trying to brainwash me again! So you can add me to the DS and JM posse.
This is brutal.

C&CDean
3/19/2008, 01:18 PM
So are we going to speak to how ignorant it is to vote against someone because of those same factors? If this discussion was any more of the position that different equals wicked I'd think I was back in Sunday school with the Baptists trying to brainwash me again! So you can add me to the DS and JM posse.
This is brutal.

OK, how about you tell us exactly why you support him? What exactly is it that he's done that makes him so groovy? Why is he going to be the saviour of America? Why will he be any better than Reagan, Clinton, Bush, or whoever? Why is he a better candidate than Hillary or McCain?

And please do not use the following:

He's pretty. He's a good speaker. He's for change. He's black (sorta). He's muslim (sorta).

Go ahead...

dolemitesooner
3/19/2008, 01:26 PM
Wait. I almost forgot. Doleo read Obama's book so now he's an Obama expert and ****.

If you're going to be another one of his lemmings go ahead on. Preach the change my brotha. You and your possy of one JM might get what you're hoping for. For the sake of America, I hope not.

And personally, I just think you dig him cause he's black like you, and we've already discussed how stupid it is to vote for somebody cause he's black/female/gay/racist/baptist/mormon/white etc.
I don't know who I am going to vote for. After I am finished reading Audcity of hope. I am going to find some stuff on Mccain.

I like multiple things about all the canidates

C&CDean
3/19/2008, 01:28 PM
I don't know who I am going to vote for. After I am finished reading Audcity of hope. I am going to find some stuff on Mccain.

I like multiple things about all the canidates


"None of the above" is getting my vote.

soonerscuba
3/19/2008, 01:28 PM
If I had to pull a Deano and put %'s on it. 911 was 90% Clinton and 10% Bush.
How is the class actions against Clinton by the estates of the victims going? I mean if you are going to assign blame, surely you think it would hold in court.

You know how stupid people sound when they blame Bush for 9/11? It works both ways.

Animal Mother
3/19/2008, 01:38 PM
OK, how about you tell us exactly why you support him? What exactly is it that he's done that makes him so groovy? Why is he going to be the saviour of America? Why will he be any better than Reagan, Clinton, Bush, or whoever? Why is he a better candidate than Hillary or McCain?

And please do not use the following:

He's pretty. He's a good speaker. He's for change. He's black (sorta). He's muslim (sorta).

Go ahead...



Iíll answer with what I see as legitimate reasons. Hopefully you can come down off your bully pulpit and respond in kind. Answering questions where someone already has drawn lines in the sand isnít a good idea but it wouldnít be the first time I stepped in it. I hear youíre pretty also.

He was against the Iraq war before it started.
He voted against an amendment that opposed equal marriage rights.
Heís better than Hill because I think he can get the votes of Midwesterners and garner those crucial Electoral votes.
Heís better than her because she already screwed things up when she was presidentÖ. I mean when Bubba Clinton was president.
Heís better than McClain because heís younger and realizes that technology is important to keep the economy and life in general in motion.

Your turn Skippy.

dolemitesooner
3/19/2008, 01:44 PM
OK, how about you tell us exactly why you support him? What exactly is it that he's done that makes him so groovy? Why is he going to be the saviour of America? Why will he be any better than Reagan, Clinton, Bush, or whoever? Why is he a better candidate than Hillary or McCain?

And please do not use the following:

He's pretty. He's a good speaker. He's for change. He's black (sorta). He's muslim (sorta).

Go ahead...
OK

WE CAN DO THIS

1)
First off He is against the war in Iraq, and believes that we need to start moving troops out of the area. He wants to withdraw all troops with in 16 months if possiable

2) He believes that there is a looming energy crisis and that the united states needs to ween iits self away from oil dependency. Multiple times I have heard him talk supporting doing somthing like the Country of Brazil Has. 90% of Brazil's auto industy is ran by ethonal sugar cane based fuel. He whats to invest 150 billion area into researching clean energy.

3)Immagration.

a) I have heard he talk backwards our imagration system is, People with money get pappers quickly and those without have no chance and therfore come into the country illegealy, he thinks we need to look at this disfuctional system that is outdated

b) he wants to crack down on emplyores who give work to illegeal aleins.

c) Create secrue boarders.

4) Education He believes that the no Child left behind act was a start but it has problmes and needs to be reformed and he also thinks the rising collage tuition costs need to be fixed. I think collage tutution has went up something like 30% in 6 years across the counrty.

There are many other reasons why I like him do you want them, our do you think I just like him becfause he is black

dolemitesooner
3/19/2008, 01:45 PM
"None of the above" is getting my vote.Well that really helps things out. WTF

Condescending Sooner
3/19/2008, 01:53 PM
None and multiple is the answer.

First off no ****ing president asked for this to happenso your question is stupid, but if you want to get technical.

Bush, and Clinton

Clinton because he did not do anything about the first attacks of OBL, THEY ALL TOOK PLACE DURING HIS WATCH AND THERE WAS LITTLE TO NO RESPONSE. Kenya, Tanzaniza, and the Uss Cole.

Bush I guess you can blame him beacuse it took place while he was prez.

Your question is retared

I asked the question in response to a statement someone else made. You really need to check your grammar and spelling before calling anything stupid.

dolemitesooner
3/19/2008, 01:55 PM
I asked the question in response to a statement someone else made. You really need to check your grammar and spelling before calling anything stupid.
Umm no I know my spelling and grammer makes me look stupid. I don't care.

Also its still a stupid question.

Next?

Animal Mother
3/19/2008, 02:05 PM
I asked the question in response to a statement someone else made. You really need to check your grammar and spelling before calling anything stupid.


Oh brother! Now we're resorting to the depths of the grammar police. There is not enough time to explain why pointing out spelling and grammar is an absolutely spurious position.

Condescending Sooner
3/19/2008, 02:07 PM
Umm no I know my spelling and grammer makes me look stupid. I don't care.

Also its still a stupid question.

Next?

You obviously missed a page or two of the thread. Johnny Mack insinuated that 9/11 was the US Government's fault. I asked him which president should be held responsible. It wasn't a stupid question.

It is sad you don't care if your grammar and spelling make you look stupid.

Condescending Sooner
3/19/2008, 02:08 PM
Oh brother! Now we're resorting to the depths of the grammar police. There is not enough time to explain why pointing out spelling and grammar is an absolutely spurious position.

If you spell like that and are calling out Dean and others for being ignorant, I think it is relevant.

dolemitesooner
3/19/2008, 02:10 PM
You obviously missed a page or two of the thread. Johnny Mack insinuated that 9/11 was the US Government's fault. I asked him which president should be held responsible. It wasn't a stupid question.

It is sad you don't care if your grammar and spelling make you look stupid.
How long have you been around here? I am ****ing Dyslexic, and I have trouble reading and spelling. I always have and always will.

****

dolemitesooner
3/19/2008, 02:11 PM
If you spell like that and are calling out Dean and others for being ignorant, I think it is relevant.
First of all, I am just half way calling out Dean he knows I am stirring the pot with him. He can take it he's a big boy.

Animal Mother
3/19/2008, 02:17 PM
If you spell like that and are calling out Dean and others for being ignorant, I think it is relevant.

Whatís relevant is the fact that calling someone stupid is character ASSassination. Do you know Dolemiteís posting situation? Many people are at their job and have to worry about under worked and over paid IT employees snooping and therefore they post quickly. I have ways to avoid spelling and grammar problems but who gives a zit? I have read tons of Dolemiteís posts and heís a sincere dude and thatís what counts. Not whether he crosses his eyes and dots his tís. Now stop bothering me, I have to cook his dinner.

dolemitesooner
3/19/2008, 02:20 PM
Whatís relevant is the fact that calling someone stupid is character ASSassination. Do you know Dolemiteís posting situation? Many people are at their job and have to worry about under worked and over paid IT employees snooping and therefore they post quickly. I have ways to avoid spelling and grammar problems but who gives a zit? I have read tons of Dolemiteís posts and heís a sincere dude and thatís what counts. Not whether he crosses his eyes and dots his tís. Now stop bothering me, I have to cook his dinner.

I want Meatloaf beyonce

shaun4411
3/19/2008, 02:34 PM
im still trying to figure him out. he says everything he knows people want to hear-- especially leftists and his constituents. he is a freshman senator midway through his first term who is running for president. prior to being the keynote speaker at the DNC, few outside those circles knew who he was or what he stands for. few people now even know what he stands for because he isnt really good at voting. he is in love with voting present, and he did it all the time in the illinois senate. do people like him because he speaks so well--something bush is somewhat lacking in? what kind of friends did he have to make to make a political rise so quickly? we all know who the clintons are, and what power they have, and theyve been in the spotlite, in this game since the 70's. obama wasnt a national afterthought even 6 years ago. im not saying he's bad, but we just dont really know who he is. i wonder how many conversations he's had with the right people to put him where he is today. the audacity of what he is doing considering where he is on the political realm.

on the flip side, it could be said that he's just green enough to not be corrupt by 20 year politicians. maybe he hasnt been tainted too badly by constituents and lobbysts , and his own ideas will be what spawn a new tune for our country. but, it also leads me to think how someone can artificially rise so quickly, he had to shake a few hands, make a few deals.

Animal Mother
3/19/2008, 02:38 PM
I want Meatloaf beyonce

Oh man!!! I don't like him. How about some Red Hot Chili Peppers or Flying Burrito Brothers?

dolemitesooner
3/19/2008, 02:48 PM
Oh man!!! I don't like him. How about some Red Hot Chili Peppers or Flying Burrito Brothers?
ok:D

JohnnyMack
3/19/2008, 03:00 PM
You obviously missed a page or two of the thread. Johnny Mack insinuated that 9/11 was the US Government's fault. I asked him which president should be held responsible. It wasn't a stupid question.

It is sad you don't care if your grammar and spelling make you look stupid.

Your reading comprehension is worse than :dolemite:'s spelling.

09/11 never happens without a series of policy decisions made by a series of Presidential administrations. Tracing all the way back to when Standard Oil got in bed with the Saudis in the late 30's and early 40's, opening the door for shipments of oil to begin flowing back to the States. Realizing what a good deal we struck with them, we've stayed put ever since, constantly developing our relationship with Saudi Arabia, taking their oil and making them rich. We've used Saudi Arabia as a launching pad for attacks against other members of the region (Iraq), which was in fact one of the main reasons OBL (who is Saudi by birth) stated as his opposition to our regime.

We supported the establishment of Israel and have helped prop that country up ever since. Causing decades of animosity towards us by the Islamic community. Which POTUS do you blame for that? I guess every one since Truman.

I would contend that those are the primary two causes of disdain towards the U.S. by Al Qaida.

They didn't just wake up one morning, pull the name of a country out of a hat and say, "let's bomb these guys!"

Civicus_Sooner
3/19/2008, 03:06 PM
How the heck was Obama 'against' the war in Iraq BEFORE it happened whe he was not an elected federal official yet?

I somehow doubt he would have gone against the Democrat leadership's support for the war if he were there and privey to the information that Clinton, et al had.

This guy is smoke and mirrors.

Civicus_Sooner
3/19/2008, 03:12 PM
I assume you believe Clinton's was better? We got the USS Cole, the bombings at our embassy, the downtown NYC bombings and 911 for the nice guy approach.

I think we (the military and their civilian bosses) fully intended the actions we are reaping now. We must eliminate the terrorists and their allies. Plain and simple.

Wipe them off the earth, extermination type stuff. Getting medieval on their asses is all they understand. Weakness and diplomacy does nothing to protect us from them. Here, here!

achiro
3/19/2008, 03:33 PM
How the heck was Obama 'against' the war in Iraq BEFORE it happened whe he was not an elected federal official yet?

I somehow doubt he would have gone against the Democrat leadership's support for the war if he were there and privey to the information that Clinton, et al had.

This guy is smoke and mirrors.

This is something I wish/hope that the Repubs hammer him on. It's all fine and dandy to oppose the war now, even to some extent the "in" thing to do.(which is why they won't hammer him on it) BUT back when the declaration was signed in 02(I think) there were very few dims that didn't sign off on it and those were the nutty extreme leftist sackless bunch that wouldn't go to war if Al Queda sat up a tent in their back yard after killing all their neighbors. SO what BHO is saying is that even though every bit of intel we had at the time said that we should go in, and EVEN though Sadam refused to follow the UN sanctions/allow UN inspectors in Iraq, despite all of that, he didn't think we should go in...so what would he do if our country was attacked again?

shaun4411
3/19/2008, 03:47 PM
This is something I wish/hope that the Repubs hammer him on. It's all fine and dandy to oppose the war now, even to some extent the "in" thing to do.(which is why they won't hammer him on it) BUT back when the declaration was signed in 02(I think) there were very few dims that didn't sign off on it and those were the nutty extreme leftist sackless bunch that wouldn't go to war if Al Queda sat up a tent in their back yard after killing all their neighbors. SO what BHO is saying is that even though every bit of intel we had at the time said that we should go in, and EVEN though Sadam refused to follow the UN sanctions/allow UN inspectors in Iraq, despite all of that, he didn't think we should go in...so what would he do if our country was attacked again?

he's insenuating that he is clairvoyant and knows the future. he knew already. he is amazing. lets all get on our knees.

SoonerProphet
3/19/2008, 03:47 PM
This is something I wish/hope that the Repubs hammer him on. It's all fine and dandy to oppose the war now, even to some extent the "in" thing to do.(which is why they won't hammer him on it) BUT back when the declaration was signed in 02(I think) there were very few dims that didn't sign off on it and those were the nutty extreme leftist sackless bunch that wouldn't go to war if Al Queda sat up a tent in their back yard after killing all their neighbors. SO what BHO is saying is that even though every bit of intel we had at the time said that we should go in, and EVEN though Sadam refused to follow the UN sanctions/allow UN inspectors in Iraq, despite all of that, he didn't think we should go in...so what would he do if our country was attacked again?

I think this is a bit off base. Many conservative folks spoke out against it as well. As did folks in the intel community. Quite a few folks thought it was a bad idea...trendy today or not.

shaun4411
3/19/2008, 03:51 PM
and the majority of the intelligence community (intel from a dozen or so other countries than the usa) backed up the general assertion..what about them? agents on the ground, sattelite recon, the fact that he ignored more than a dozen sanctions, and whether he had them or not, he wanted iran and israel to think he did.

mdklatt
3/19/2008, 03:52 PM
even though every bit of intel we had at the time said that we should go in

This is wrong, wrong, wrong. The only bits of intel the neocons bothered to pay attention were--surprise, surprise--the ones that supported their position. And of course, that intelligence also turned out to be wrong, wrong, wrong. As did the idea of a quick war, Iraqi Shiites and Sunnis singing Kumbaya and embracing Western democracy, and pretty much every other load of crap we were sold.



so what would he do if our country was attacked again?

Again? When did Iraq attack us?

JohnnyMack
3/19/2008, 03:53 PM
he's insenuating that he is clairvoyant and knows the future. he knew already. he is amazing. lets all get on our knees.

I said the same thing.

achiro
3/19/2008, 03:59 PM
This is wrong, wrong, wrong. The only bits of intel the neocons bothered to pay attention were--surprise, surprise--the ones that supported their position. And of course, that intelligence also turned out to be wrong, wrong, wrong. As did the idea of a quick war, Iraqi Shiites and Sunnis singing Kumbaya and embracing Western democracy, and pretty much every other load of crap we were sold.
I guess you got to sit in the meetings where the SECRET intel was given?
BTW, your assertion here is rediculous. There were only 21 dims in the Senate and 126 in the house that voted against going in, so the FACT that it wasn't just the "neocons" voting yea pretty much buries your misguided "historically forgetful" OPINION in the dirt. ;)





Again? When did Iraq attack us?

When the **** did I say Iraq attacked us? Damn, its no wonder the dims can't get it right they can't comprehend English and add whatever the hell they want to to it.:D

mdklatt
3/19/2008, 04:06 PM
he's insenuating that he is clairvoyant and knows the future. he knew already.

Well, him and about a brazillion other people who said it was going to be a bad idea. Do the word "quagmire" and comparsions to Vietnam ring a bell? Some intelligence experts said there wasn't irrefutable evidence of WMDs. They were right. Some military officers said we weren't sending enough troops to secure the country (and at least one got ****canned for it). They were right. Some political pundits said once you took the lid off of Iraq it would boil over into a civil war and become a terrorist breeding ground. They were right. So how is it that we ended up listening to everybody that was wrong and ignoring everybody that was right? Doesn't that bother you at least a little bit? It bothers the hell out of me, and I supported the invasion at the time. At best the administration was guilty of overly wishful thinking and tunnel vision, but at worst it was a calculated act of deception.

mdklatt
3/19/2008, 04:12 PM
When the **** did I say Iraq attacked us? Damn, its no wonder the dims can't get it right they can't comprehend English and add whatever the hell they want to to it.

Silly me. Since we were talking about Iraq and you said "attacked again" I thought one thing must have had something to do with the other.

Condescending Sooner
3/19/2008, 04:13 PM
Your reading comprehension is worse than :dolemite:'s spelling.



What exactly did I not comprehend? You said I had my head in the sand if I didn't believe the government was responsible for 9/11, right?

achiro
3/19/2008, 04:18 PM
Silly me. Since we were talking about Iraq and you said "attacked again" I thought one thing must have had something to do with the other.

;) :D

Animal Mother
3/19/2008, 04:33 PM
How the heck was Obama 'against' the war in Iraq BEFORE it happened whe he was not an elected federal official yet?

I somehow doubt he would have gone against the Democrat leadership's support for the war if he were there and privey to the information that Clinton, et al had.

This guy is smoke and mirrors.

Obama spoke out against invading Iraq when he was running for the Senate before the 2002 vote.

Animal Mother
3/19/2008, 04:36 PM
Silly me. Since we were talking about Iraq and you said "attacked again" I thought one thing must have had something to do with the other.

mdklatt. Please don't muddy up knee jerk thinking with quotations from that knee.

soonerscuba
3/19/2008, 04:53 PM
If gays were allowed to serve in the military and we taught intelligent design in schools we would have won by now.

picasso
3/19/2008, 05:04 PM
the great uniter ain't exactly been extending his hand up in the senate. I be passin on the guvment's hand in spreading the wealth.

awight.

Animal Mother
3/19/2008, 05:08 PM
If gays were allowed to serve in the military and we taught intelligent design in schools we would have won by now.

You forgot about burning the flag.

Animal Mother
3/19/2008, 05:09 PM
the great uniter ain't exactly been extending his hand up in the senate. I be passin on the guvment's hand in spreading the wealth.

awight.

Go cube something.

picasso
3/19/2008, 05:11 PM
Go cube something.

cube this.

Collier11
3/19/2008, 05:18 PM
Right war, wrong time! That doesnt stop the fact that there was evidence on both sides and GW is obviously going to trust his "people" as anyone would

TheHumanAlphabet
3/19/2008, 05:34 PM
OK, I gotta hear this. How is America responsible for Pearl Harbor?

Don't know if was answered previously, but a couple of things. 1) supposedly our trade practices and our lock on certain basic raw materials and oil caused the Japanese to feel as if they were being threatened by the U.S. policies and prevented from attaining their view of the Japan rule AsiaPacific. 2) Roosevelt had intelligence that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor at a specific time and prevented that information from being passed to Hawaiian commanders in order to allow the attack to occur and to bring sentiment to bear to join the war against the axis powers.

Scott D
3/19/2008, 05:50 PM
Your reading comprehension is worse than :dolemite:'s spelling.

09/11 never happens without a series of policy decisions made by a series of Presidential administrations. Tracing all the way back to when Standard Oil got in bed with the Saudis in the late 30's and early 40's, opening the door for shipments of oil to begin flowing back to the States. Realizing what a good deal we struck with them, we've stayed put ever since, constantly developing our relationship with Saudi Arabia, taking their oil and making them rich. We've used Saudi Arabia as a launching pad for attacks against other members of the region (Iraq), which was in fact one of the main reasons OBL (who is Saudi by birth) stated as his opposition to our regime.

you forgot that the British manipulated us (during the Eisenhower years) into the Iran situation they had, because quite simply the Brits knew they were going to lose their little oil monopoly in Iran to the Iranians. Ironically Persia is only Iran now because they sided with Germany in WWII because both Britain and Russia were against Germany in WWII. The CIA got us in a fine mess there with their little puppet we like to call the Shah, otherwise it's actually quite possible that Iran could have on it's own turned into the first democracy in the Middle East, but we'll never know because we and the Brits had to have our hands in the cookie jar.


We supported the establishment of Israel and have helped prop that country up ever since. Causing decades of animosity towards us by the Islamic community. Which POTUS do you blame for that? I guess every one since Truman.

That's more of a reason that OBL 'turned' on the USA than us using Saudi Arabia as a staging area. The usage of Saudi land just solidified the matter. Also, the entire establishing of Israel and the few preceding years could be looked at as one of America's attempts at supporting a form of 'terrorism' in regards to Palestine.


I would contend that those are the primary two causes of disdain towards the U.S. by Al Qaida.

They didn't just wake up one morning, pull the name of a country out of a hat and say, "let's bomb these guys!"

Dontcha know JM, it's just easier to say "Hey they all hate us because we're the big kid on the block." Forget the fact that as tacky as it sounds "With great power comes great responsibility." is something that is far too often taken lightly by our Government, and those whom we elect to run that Government.

mdklatt
3/19/2008, 06:02 PM
That doesnt stop the fact that there was evidence on both sides and GW is obviously going to trust his "people" as anyone would

The problem is that Bush picks his people primarily on the basis of loyalty; competence is apparently an also-ran. And his people put pressure on their underlings, either implicitly or explicitly, to give The Boss the answers he wants to hear.

Vaevictis
3/19/2008, 06:09 PM
The CIA got us in a fine mess there with their little puppet we like to call the Shah, otherwise it's actually quite possible that Iran could have on it's own turned into the first democracy in the Middle East, but we'll never know because we and the Brits had to have our hands in the cookie jar.

Heh, might have turned into nothin'. They already were a democracy. The Brits didn't like the fact that their parliament nationalized the oil industry, so they decided to come calling to the good ol' USA, claiming that Iran was falling under communist sway. They never convinced Truman, but Ike bit, and Operation Ajax was underway.

Kermit Roosevelt, Jr. (Teddy's grandson) was behind the whole affair, and we are the ones most responsible for the government Iran has today. Folks tend to get rather crabby when you go in, overthrow their democratically elected government, install a dictator, and have your intelligence agency train the dictator's secret police (who then turn around and do stuff like the infamous "broken coke bottle" interrogation technique).

SoonerProphet
3/19/2008, 06:15 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/02/AR2007060200905.html

mdklatt
3/19/2008, 06:33 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/02/AR2007060200905.html


On Aug. 13, 2002, the CIA completed a classified, six-page intelligence analysis that described the worst scenarios that could arise after a U.S.-led removal of Saddam Hussein: anarchy and territorial breakup in Iraq, a surge of global terrorism, and a deepening of Islamic antipathy toward the United States.

Here's the problem we have now. With 20/20 hindsight it's clear that the naysayers were right, but were they right for the wrong reasons? Knowing what we knew at the time, was this worst case scenario the most compelling argument? Perhaps prudence dictates that you always give credence to the worst case scenario before starting a war.

To bring this at least a little back on topic: Was Obama against the war because he put more stock in the worst case scenario or simply because of partisan reasons? If the former, how did he reach that conclusion? That's what we need to know. It's possible that he's just as likely to cherry pick facts to support his own beliefs as Bush is.

shaun4411
3/19/2008, 06:45 PM
The problem is that Bush picks his people primarily on the basis of loyalty; competence is apparently an also-ran. And his people put pressure on their underlings, either implicitly or explicitly, to give The Boss the answers he wants to hear.

sounds familiar. sounds like a man whose last name rhymes with oops.

VeeJay
3/19/2008, 07:03 PM
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p250/robert817/cats/racist.gif

There's a shoe sale at Nieman Marcus!

;)

soonerloyal
3/19/2008, 07:08 PM
I don't blame Obama for the words of his pastor any more than I blame Clinton or McCain for the verbiage from those who are/were part of their campaign or support groups. I can separate the one from the other. Wright's message is as distasteful as Falwell's.

My Nannie, one of the finest humans ever born, still makes remarks she was taught back in the 20's..."That neegra woman is so pretty." I have to stop and say "What?" I just saw a gorgeous girl. Does that mean I have to publicly dismiss my grandmother?

I don't agree with the discordant messages being brought up that Wright made. Sheesh, I can't believe he's a Marine with that bad attitude. But I still support Barack Obama.

The way some people are up in arms, they act like they he's going to run a Black Panther flag up the White House Lawn pole, turn the Oval Office into a hiphop club, meet the Queen of England with ten pounds worth of bling and a red, white and blue-jeweled grille, and make Farrakhan Secretary of State. And then maybe outlaw Christianity only to make Islam the only legal choice? Oh, fer pete's sake. Makes my head feel like exploding...

Where's the fuss definitely due about Dubya telling our boys fighting and dying in the 'Ghan that it's "romantic"? I know every time he opens his mouth, he spews even more stupidity than the spew before, but...

I'll never condone hate speech, or accept divisive behavior, or embrace prejudice in any shape or form.

Except for 'horns and pokes, but that's just natural. :D

mdklatt
3/19/2008, 07:16 PM
meet the Queen of England with ten pounds worth of bling and a red, white and blue-jeweled grille

Okay, that would just be awesome. :D


Fo shizzle, Your Majizzle.

OklahomaTuba
3/19/2008, 08:00 PM
Obama — who in a major speech Tuesday decried controversial remarks by the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr. dating back to 2001 — called for Imus to be fired just one week after Imus made the remarks in April 2007, two months after Obama had announced his candidacy.
“There’s nobody on my staff who would still be working for me if they made a comment like that about anybody of any ethnic group. And I would hope that NBC ends up having that same attitude,” Obama told ABC News in an April 11 interview. ...
Obama said in the 2007 ABC interview he would never appear again on Imus’ show.
“He didn’t just cross the line,” Obama said. “He fed into some of the worst stereotypes that my two young daughters are having to deal with today in America.”

Heh. What a jack arse.

OklahomaTuba
3/19/2008, 08:03 PM
I'll never condone hate speech, or accept divisive behavior, or embrace prejudice in any shape or form.

Then it sounds like you aren't the type of person who would go to Obama's "church" faithfully for 20 years.

C&CDean
3/20/2008, 08:52 AM
Iíll answer with what I see as legitimate reasons. Hopefully you can come down off your bully pulpit and respond in kind. Answering questions where someone already has drawn lines in the sand isnít a good idea but it wouldnít be the first time I stepped in it. I hear youíre pretty also.

He was against the Iraq war before it started.
He voted against an amendment that opposed equal marriage rights.
Heís better than Hill because I think he can get the votes of Midwesterners and garner those crucial Electoral votes.
Heís better than her because she already screwed things up when she was presidentÖ. I mean when Bubba Clinton was president.
Heís better than McClain because heís younger and realizes that technology is important to keep the economy and life in general in motion.

Your turn Skippy.

1. He's wrong, and I disagree vehemently. Of course this helps him cop the Cindy Sheehan crowd vote.
2. He's wrong, and I disagree vehemently. Of course this helps him cop the gay vote.
3. Being able to suck up votes over Hill makes him worthy of being the prez? um, OK.
4. He's better than her cause she screwed up things while YOUR guy was in office? um, OK.
5. He's younger than McCain so that makes him better? um, OK. You're probably younger than me, so this argument has gone straight in the ****ter.

If that's all you've got for your boy, then that is the lamest, saddest, most pathetic argument to vote for somebody that I've ever seen. I've seen better qualifications from somebody running for class president at junior high. If you had just stuck to the pretty and good speaker you'd be miles further ahead.

There just may be enough people out there with heads full of cow**** who are probably thinking just like you to make this guy a possibility. In fact, I'm sure of it. When the best a party has to offer is these two steaming piles of manure then said party is in a seriously sad state. Personally, I'd like to see Hillary and Obama duel, cause the debates ain't going anywhere, and I'm tired of seeing both of their mugs on the tube.

OklahomaRed
3/20/2008, 12:30 PM
Fred Phelps isn't your pastor nor has he been for 20 some odd years, so that comparison doesn't fly with me.

If your Uncle/Father/Preacher or some other person you considered a close mentor said something off-color would you disown and villify him? Would you blow 20 years of a relationship out of the airlock over a series of soundbytes?

That's even more disturbing. That he would follow someone who preached white hatred for 20 years. That points toward more buy-in than if he was simply aware of the preacher and the preacher had endorsed him. Kind of like the old saying, "blood is thicker than water."

If my preacher is preachin' black hatred, and the black man is keeping the white man down, then I'm going to find another Church.

Okla-homey
3/20/2008, 12:42 PM
FWIW, reformed Clintonista Dick Morris opined in an op-ed yesterday that BHO will survive this mess if and when the electorate begins to accept the notion BHO had to hang out with these folks in order to prove to Chicago's Southside (his district) that he, despite the fact he's half white and a Columbia and Harvard Law grad, is indeed "black enough" to be their champion.

Makes sense to me.

OklahomaTuba
3/20/2008, 12:53 PM
In the end, BHO attending a racist church for 20 years with a bigot as a pastor (and as an advisor), being endorsed by the likes of the black panthers, nation of islam, etc or having campaign workers hang Che flags in campaign offices won't be the end of his campaign.

At the end of the day, his proposals of retreat, socialized health care, and trillions in new taxes on the "Rich" will cause him to go down in flames.

Its really no wonder McCain has a double digit lead at this point. People are finally beginning to see the real BHO, and his polling numbers are dropping faster than a Rev. Wright F Bomb.

tbl
3/20/2008, 01:02 PM
I think you make a great point. I also think that BHO took speech lessons from The Rock.
If you smeeeeelllllllllllllalalalalalalalaaaa.... what Barak... is cooking...

soonerscuba
3/20/2008, 01:42 PM
Its really no wonder McCain has a double digit lead at this point. People are finally beginning to see the real BHO, and his polling numbers are dropping faster than a Rev. Wright F Bomb.

So poll numbers matter now?

shaun4411
3/20/2008, 01:48 PM
So poll numbers matter now?

theyre generally pretty accurate.

JohnnyMack
3/20/2008, 01:52 PM
Its really no wonder McCain has a double digit lead at this point. People are finally beginning to see the real BHO, and his polling numbers are dropping faster than a Rev. Wright F Bomb.

New Gallup numbers show McCain with a 3 to 4 point lead over both D candidates. But I'm sure in your Rush Limbaugh / Sean Hannity / John Hagee Jerkoff World McCain has a bazillion point lead.

JohnnyMack
3/20/2008, 01:55 PM
Here are links to a summary of National polling data:

McCain vs. Clinton:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_clinton-224.html

McCain vs. Obama:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

One poll of all of those listed shows McCain with a 10 point lead over Clinton. So basically Tuba, you're full of **** or simply ignorant of the facts.

C&CDean
3/20/2008, 01:55 PM
Who the **** is John Hagee?

I can't keep up with all these playas.

mdklatt
3/20/2008, 02:07 PM
Who the **** is John Hagee?



He's the pastor of a Six Flags Over Jesus in Houston. He wants us to bomb Iran, thus starting a war in the Holy Land that will bring about the antichrist in the form of a European leader, thus bringing the second coming of Christ. Glory be! Even though he supports Israel, he thinks Jews are going to hell unless they convert. He also hates the gays and the Mary worshippers, you know the standard stuff. I think he blames 9/11 on the many sinners in this country, but I might have him confused with one of the other televangelist wingnuts on that point. In short, he's no less of a ********* than Obama's minister.

Collier11
3/20/2008, 02:16 PM
He's the pastor of a Six Flags Over Jesus in Houston. He wants us to bomb Iran, thus starting a war in the Holy Land that will bring about the antichrist in the form of a European leader, thus bringing the second coming of Christ. Glory be! Even though he supports Israel, he thinks Jews are going to hell unless they convert. He also hates the gays and the Mary worshippers, you know the standard stuff. I think he blames 9/11 on the many sinners in this country, but I might have him confused with one of the other televangelist wingnuts on that point. In short, he's no less of a ********* than Obama's minister.

Not a Biblical Scholar here but I really dont think that Christ is going to come back because we want him to...pretty sure it is on his own terms!

mdklatt
3/20/2008, 02:44 PM
Not a Biblical Scholar here but I really dont think that Christ is going to come back because we want him to...pretty sure it is on his own terms!

I assume his reasoning for this all comes from Revalations. I saw the Iran/antichrist/rapture thing on the innerwebs last night, but I can't find it now. :confused:

According to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagee) I had it exactly backwards about his beliefs regarding Jews. They do not have to accept Christ because they already have their own deal with God.

Edit for Dean:


Hagee condemns literature such as J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter, calling it contemporary witchcraft.

soonerscuba
3/20/2008, 02:53 PM
theyre generally pretty accurate.
Like when they predicted a 10 point lead for Obama in NH? Primary polling is notoriously bad.

Stoop Dawg
3/20/2008, 03:18 PM
Regardless of what lame-brained ideas have been mentioned by Wright, I think the assumption that all blacks, see Obama, believe the same thing is a bit of a stretch.

You are smarter than that. Race is not the binding factor. Attending the same church is not the binding factor. Having the pastor of said church baptize your kids is not the binding factor. Being married by said pastor is not the binding factor.

Attending the same church for 20 years AND being married by said pastor AND having said pastor baptize your kids AND referring to said pastor as a family friend IS the binding factor. You don't do all of those things for two decades and then act like you don't share many of the same views. Even if Obama is not half as extreme as his pastor (which I imagine he is not), he has been listening to that **** every week for 20 years and failed to leave it - much less rebuff it.

If he can't stand up for what is right in his own church, how can he stand up for what's right as POTUS?

Stoop Dawg
3/20/2008, 03:20 PM
He's the pastor of a Six Flags Over Jesus in Houston. He wants us to bomb Iran, thus starting a war in the Holy Land that will bring about the antichrist in the form of a European leader, thus bringing the second coming of Christ. Glory be! Even though he supports Israel, he thinks Jews are going to hell unless they convert. He also hates the gays and the Mary worshippers, you know the standard stuff. I think he blames 9/11 on the many sinners in this country, but I might have him confused with one of the other televangelist wingnuts on that point. In short, he's no less of a ********* than Obama's minister.

Has McCain been attending his church for 20 years? Does McCain have him over for dinner and refer to him as a family friend? If so, I may have to re-think my intention to vote for McCain.

JohnnyMack
3/20/2008, 03:22 PM
You don't do all of those things for two decades and then act like you don't share many of the same views. Even if Obama is not half as extreme as his pastor (which I imagine he is not), he has been listening to that **** every week for 20 years and failed to leave it - much less rebuff it.


I'm as close to my Dad as anyone else on this planet. However to say we share divergent opinions on societal issues would be an understatement. How do you explain that?

Collier11
3/20/2008, 03:28 PM
Has McCain been attending his church for 20 years? Does McCain have him over for dinner and refer to him as a family friend? If so, I may have to re-think my intention to vote for McCain.

I have jewish friends, atheist friends, racist friends, liberal friends, all things I dont believe in...I cant be their friend based on their beliefs? I just dont accept their beliefs and I stay out of their personal beliefs as they do mine. I see where you are coming from but I dont think it is a correct assessment...JMHO

Stoop Dawg
3/20/2008, 03:28 PM
I'm as close to my Dad as anyone else on this planet. However to say we share divergent opinions on societal issues would be an understatement. How do you explain that?

A couple of things come to mind.

A) Whether you realize it or not, you ARE influenced by your dad's beliefs.

B) You didn't choose your dad. You don't have the option of obtaining a new dad by simply driving another mile down the street.

You don't abandon your family due to a divergence of beliefs. You DO abandon your church when they start preaching things you do not believe to be true.

C&CDean
3/20/2008, 03:28 PM
I'm as close to my Dad as anyone else on this planet. However to say we share divergent opinions on societal issues would be an understatement. How do you explain that?

Cause your dad is smart and you are not?

SoonerProphet
3/20/2008, 03:32 PM
It is the blanket bs from bothsides that are bothersome. BO is entitled to go to church where he pleases and his worldview may differ from a 20 year mentor and "spiritual advisor". I don't see what is so hard to grasp about that. Like JM said, love my dad and he is a mentor to be sure but I don't see eye on social, professional, or political matters.

SoonerProphet
3/20/2008, 03:34 PM
Don't any of you clowns have someone you consider a friend who thinks we staged the moon landings. You love the dude and will never toss him under a bus, you just think his wacked out tales about Armstrong in Nevada are nuts.

Stoop Dawg
3/20/2008, 03:35 PM
I have jewish friends, atheist friends, racist friends, liberal friends, all things I dont believe in...I cant be their friend based on their beliefs? I just dont accept their beliefs and I stay out of their personal beliefs as they do mine. I see where you are coming from but I dont think it is a correct assessment...JMHO

Do you look to those friends for spiritual guidance? I believe there is a difference between a "pastor" and a "friend". The fact that Obama refers to Wright as a "family friend" (in addition to "pastor") only reinforces the notion that they have/had a close relationship (i.e. not some "He's the pastor of my 10,000 member mega-church" type thing).

You are correct that I do not (and can not) know the true nature of their relationship. I do not (and can not) know if, or to what extent, Obama shares the views of Wright. However, there is clearly a close connection and, frankly, it concerns me.

C&CDean
3/20/2008, 03:35 PM
It is the blanket bs from bothsides that are bothersome. BO is entitled to go to church where he pleases and his worldview may differ from a 20 year mentor and "spiritual advisor". I don't see what is so hard to grasp about that. Like JM said, love my dad and he is a mentor to be sure but I don't see eye on social, professional, or political matters.

Like I said before, some of you guys would find a way to justify/explain away pretty much anything.

"So what if Obama dines every night with people who eat little white baby spleens. That doesn't mean he eats them, and even if he does, it doesn't mean he actually likes them." MEH.

achiro
3/20/2008, 03:37 PM
I'm as close to my Dad as anyone else on this planet. However to say we share divergent opinions on societal issues would be an understatement. How do you explain that?

You can't pick your parents

Pricetag
3/20/2008, 03:37 PM
What is the time frame on the clips we've been watching? If time is apparently a factor in Mr. Obama's indoctrination, is it not a factor in the controversial nature of the preacher's comments? I mean, is it possible that he wasn't like this the whole time?

Stoop Dawg
3/20/2008, 03:40 PM
It is the blanket bs from bothsides that are bothersome.

I agree.


BO is entitled to go to church where he pleases and his worldview may differ from a 20 year mentor and "spiritual advisor".

Yes it may. In fact, I personally believe it very likely does. But to what extent? And how am I to know that?



Don't any of you clowns have someone you consider a friend who thinks we staged the moon landings. You love the dude and will never toss him under a bus, you just think his wacked out tales about Armstrong in Nevada are nuts.


I know you're just trying to provide a little perspective, but two things:

A) Believing the moon landing was faked has far fewer repercussions than preaching hate and racism.

B) As potent as my opinions are, being an anonymous poster on Soonerfans.com affords me much less power than, say, being the leader of the free world.

Collier11
3/20/2008, 03:41 PM
Do you look to those friends for spiritual guidance? I believe there is a difference between a "pastor" and a "friend".

Understood...but also, many preachers are afraid to preach the truth, rather they preach what they want you to hear. I dont agree with that because I believe that they are taking away very valuable lessons that shouldnt be their choice to take away, but I still look to them for guidance...obviously diff than any kind of hate speech

shaun4411
3/20/2008, 03:43 PM
Like when they predicted a 10 point lead for Obama in NH? Primary polling is notoriously bad.

some polls are better than others. they didnt all have him 10pts up in nh. and it istn an exact science. cant always be right. but theyre usually pretty accurate. that is the general assertion. if they were completely undependable, the candidates for office wouldnt ever base any part of their campaigns on what they say!

SoonerProphet
3/20/2008, 03:44 PM
I know this thread is getting tired, but what do some of you crackers think is so hateful. Eating baby spleens is a bit different than bitching about injustices of the past.

def_lazer_fc
3/20/2008, 07:43 PM
theyre generally pretty accurate.

hahahahahahahahahahhaahahahahaaahhahahahhaah!!!!!! !

def_lazer_fc
3/20/2008, 07:50 PM
Like I said before, some of you guys would find a way to justify/explain away pretty much anything.


everyone on this board finds a way to justify their position. not just those terrorist loving, gay liberals.

Big Red Ron
3/20/2008, 09:16 PM
everyone on this board finds a way to justify their position. not just those terrorist loving, gay liberals.But the others use logic and facts those you mention, not so much.

def_lazer_fc
3/21/2008, 12:35 AM
But the others use logic and facts those you mention, not so much.

should've seen that one coming. :rolleyes:

sean hannity talking points don't equate to logic and or fact. i know he ranks second only to jesus, but if you really pay attention to what he says and do a little "fact checking", you'll find that a good 96.5% of what comes out of his mouth is bull****.

and let me say the same goes for the left before tuba's panties get in a bunch.;)

Condescending Sooner
3/21/2008, 08:40 AM
I know this thread is getting tired, but what do some of you crackers think is so hateful. Eating baby spleens is a bit different than bitching about injustices of the past.

How many times are you going to ask this?? It has already been pointed out several times what he said that was hateful and offensive. Of course you apparently agree with what his preacher said, so no it would not be offensive to you.

SoonerProphet
3/21/2008, 08:52 AM
How many times are you going to ask this?? It has already been pointed out several times what he said that was hateful and offensive. Of course you apparently agree with what his preacher said, so no it would not be offensive to you.

It is not that I agree with what he said, it is that I have the ability to understand that folks have differing points of view. In addition to that, I also have thick enough skin not to get my dander up when I hear opposing viewpoints and feel that their past and experiences may offer insight into their opinions.

Still, I would like some of the more vocal detractors to offer up some direct quotes that point to racism, offensive language, and the like. Has he stated that he wants to eat white baby spleens? Or is this one of those context issues where we could see other sermons where he offers a message of hope and reconciliation.

C&CDean
3/21/2008, 09:09 AM
It is not that I agree with what he said, it is that I have the ability to understand that folks have differing points of view. In addition to that, I also have thick enough skin not to get my dander up when I hear opposing viewpoints and feel that their past and experiences may offer insight into their opinions.

Still, I would like some of the more vocal detractors to offer up some direct quotes that point to racism, offensive language, and the like. Has he stated that he wants to eat white baby spleens? Or is this one of those context issues where we could see other sermons where he offers a message of hope and reconciliation.

Dude, just go vote for the ****ing guy. You're not going to get people to see your position that this guy having a differing POV doesn't = racism.

Of course if this whole deal was reversed, and Obama was playing his white card instead of his black one, and his lifelong friend/pastor/mentor was a card carrying KKK member who preached hate from the pulpit, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be all "I feel that I need to understand their past experiences offering insight into their opinions."

For people to condone/accept/explain away/tolerate this type of behavior smacks of major league hypocrisy.

SoonerProphet
3/21/2008, 09:45 AM
Dude, just go vote for the ****ing guy. You're not going to get people to see your position that this guy having a differing POV doesn't = racism.

Of course if this whole deal was reversed, and Obama was playing his white card instead of his black one, and his lifelong friend/pastor/mentor was a card carrying KKK member who preached hate from the pulpit, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be all "I feel that I need to understand their past experiences offering insight into their opinions."

For people to condone/accept/explain away/tolerate this type of behavior smacks of major league hypocrisy.

Dude, I am not trying to pimp him. My own cultural heritage and identity comes from past experiences that shape who I am and that lend me to have certain opinions that others may find offensive. Is it outta hate or vitriol, no it is a cultural thing. Trust me, I can see both sides of the issue...many folks fear the onslaught of Mexicans as a issue that can erode certain values and norms, I think it is a legitimate point of view. Is it racism, perhaps, perhaps not.

OklahomaTuba
3/21/2008, 09:49 AM
Still, I would like some of the more vocal detractors to offer up some direct quotes that point to racism, offensive language, and the like. Has he stated that he wants to eat white baby spleens? Or is this one of those context issues where we could see other sermons where he offers a message of hope and reconciliation.
I guess you missed the videos of the speech, huh?
"God Damn America"? or "USofKKK" ring a bell??

Charles Krauthammer put it best:



This contextual analysis of Wright's venom, this extenuation of black hate speech as a product of white racism, is not new. It's the Jesse Jackson politics of racial grievance, expressed in Ivy League diction and Harvard Law nuance. That's why the speech made so many liberal commentators swoon: It bathed them in racial guilt, while flattering their intellectual pretensions. An unbeatable combination.

But Obama was supposed to be new. He flatters himself as a man of the future transcending the anger of the past as represented by his beloved pastor. Obama then waxes rhapsodic about the hope brought by the new consciousness of the young people in his campaign.

Then answer this, senator: If Wright is a man of the past, why would you expose your children to his vitriolic divisiveness? This is a man who curses America and who proclaimed moral satisfaction in the deaths of 3,000 innocents at a time when their bodies were still being sought at Ground Zero. It is not just the older congregants who stand and cheer and roar in wild approval of Wright's rants, but young people as well. Why did you give $22,500 just two years ago to a church run by a man of the past who infects the younger generation with precisely the racial attitudes and animus you say you have come unto us to transcend?

Just amazing, to say the least.

JohnnyMack
3/21/2008, 09:52 AM
I don't think there could be a more perfect "Tuba-esque" response. Soundbytes, mock disdain and cutting and pasting. Good jorb.

OklahomaTuba
3/21/2008, 09:54 AM
Is it outta hate or vitriol, no it is a cultural thing. Trust me, I can see both sides of the issue...

I cannot believe someone is actually trying to excuse and explain hate speech.

Just trying to make yourself feel better when you vote for BHO I suppose?

OklahomaTuba
3/21/2008, 09:56 AM
I don't think there could be a more perfect "Tuba-esque" response. Soundbytes, mock disdain and cutting and pasting. Good jorb.

And, to top it off, its 100% spot on, as usual.

You should give my strategy a try sometime JM, it might help you from getting OWNED in some of these treads.


Nah, it won't help you, nm. :D

SoonerProphet
3/21/2008, 10:01 AM
First of all, Krauthammer, the master anti-Semite slinger...give me a break. He is a pc guru of the right, like Horowitz.

Secondly, haven't governors and the like been members of the KKK? Didn't Americans once believe that blacks only equaled 3/5th of a man...he may have a valid point.

Thirdly, your fear of language reminds me of pillow biting, fruity, birkenstock wearing pinko.

JohnnyMack
3/21/2008, 10:04 AM
And, to top it off, its 100% spot on, as usual.

You should give my strategy a try sometime JM, it might help you from getting OWNED in some of these treads.


Nah, it won't help you, nm. :D

Sweetheart the next time you pwn me in a thread will be the first time.

C&CDean
3/21/2008, 10:11 AM
Room

OklahomaTuba
3/21/2008, 10:17 AM
Sweetheart the next time you pwn me in a thread will be the first time.

The thought repression really works well I see.

And to be honest, if I posted half of the stuff you have, I would try to forget it all also.

Condescending Sooner
3/21/2008, 10:17 AM
First of all, Krauthammer, the master anti-Semite slinger...give me a break. He is a pc guru of the right, like Horowitz.

Secondly, haven't governors and the like been members of the KKK? Didn't Americans once believe that blacks only equaled 3/5th of a man...he may have a valid point.

Thirdly, your fear of language reminds me of pillow biting, fruity, birkenstock wearing pinko.

Is there a point in this post?

MojoRisen
3/21/2008, 10:20 AM
Support of the Pastor = Racist

No way it was the first time he had rants like that preaching or eating coffee and donuts.

If Oboma doesn't step up and say that is absolutely sickning- he is a racist.

Anyone White candidate whos church says Blackie is Evil would be strung up and tar and feathered.

All troops in Iraq are Vols - and the ones I talk to are happy we are starting to gain considerable ground with the troop numbers going up. Iraq has been tied to AL Queda - period, now the majority of this war is being fought oversee's.

Everyone is talking about a non Oil relaint US - not just Obama and we are already seeing it.

Healthcare: Issues are because of Well/fare and Illegals and Law Suites. Anyone that can afford healthcare is getting it up the wazoo- and the companies are trying anything in their power to make sure most of the charges are not refundable or collectable- so everyone but the person who is paying for healthcare is skating and we are paying out the wazoo.

I paid 1200$ for a 2 hour ER visit - a person on welfare or not having insurance- pays nothing. I say fix it for the people and companies who are carrying America.

All candidates speak of Technology - Bush has made huge investments in it-

Immigration: His statements are BS- The people who do it right do not get papers - it is a long a grueling process. The other illegals who are here are actually paying taxes to the IRS. Immigration is tied to healthcare in my Opinion - so if he is crying fo the poor illegals- I am crying about my ER Bill
Let's not point out the obvious in what needs to be changed - as it already is

BHO - Racist

OklahomaTuba
3/21/2008, 10:20 AM
Secondly, haven't governors and the like been members of the KKK? Didn't Americans once believe that blacks only equaled 3/5th of a man...he may have a valid point.

Thirdly, your fear of language reminds me of pillow biting, fruity, birkenstock wearing pinko.

I believe we are talking about today, not 150 years ago, but maybe that's just me.

And I have no fear or language, I welcome it, as it helps show what people really think.

And if BHO is going to surround himself for 20 years with this kind of racism and bigotry, and not come out against it, then there is something wrong. Sorry you don't see that. Fortunatly, most people are seeing that and BHO's poll numbers are dropping fast because of it.

soonerscuba
3/21/2008, 01:22 PM
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/21/the-full-story-behind-rev-jeremiah-wrights-911-sermon/

Wow, first John McCain's "100 years" bashing, now this. We truly live in the soundbyte age, Honest Abe wouldn't have a chance these days.

MojoRisen
3/21/2008, 01:56 PM
People shouldn't even watch the Media anymore. It has lost its reporting ethics a long time ago.

As for Christian sermons and Pastors- The politics should be left out in my opinion. Grant it I am catholic and typically we hear sermons along the lines of praying for our leaders to have strength and wisdom to make the right decisions in times of peril. Also that we would want peace and etc etc.

Involving Politics would turn a lot of people off and in my opinion it doesn't belong in Church.

it is all Mickey Mouse Rhetoric to me - not too sound synical but trying to just get votes in America isn't always responsible either..

shaun4411
3/21/2008, 01:58 PM
BHO - Racist

thats a blanket statement if i ever saw one.

so if you had a crazy brother who was in the kkk and hated all non whites, but you still loved him because he's your brother, would you expect people to consider you the same as him even if youre still on his side? you dont have to agree with someone to be on their side. i dont agree with obama's way of going about this whole situation. i think he's going to lose a lot of votes over it. he took to long to respond, and his response didnt satisfy enough of what the people wanted to hear.

now i propose to you this: how is obama a racist? he hates whites? he hates blacks? that is what racism is you know. blind unadulterated hatred and/or a fundamental looking-down on someone based upon the context of race and race alone. in other words, you hate someone because he is a specific race, or you believe a specific race is less than another, you are a racist. he is a member of both the white and black race. you think he is somehow self hating?

MojoRisen
3/21/2008, 02:06 PM
Probably not- but typically they will either say they are white or black when asked. I have known a lot of mixed people and many I am damn close friends with.

I do think Obama believes himself to be more Black than white.

As for him being racist- that was a blanket statement - I do believe he should be a little more damning of his pastor's statements than he was - not that he has to dis-own him.

I also think those type of politics should be left out of Christian sermons- but again I am catholic and believe they are seperatists!

Media definitely is BS- but I am not crying for Obama's first little owy... It probably has just begun....

picasso
3/25/2008, 12:26 PM
It is not that I agree with what he said, it is that I have the ability to understand that folks have differing points of view. In addition to that, I also have thick enough skin not to get my dander up when I hear opposing viewpoints and feel that their past and experiences may offer insight into their opinions.

Still, I would like some of the more vocal detractors to offer up some direct quotes that point to racism, offensive language, and the like. Has he stated that he wants to eat white baby spleens? Or is this one of those context issues where we could see other sermons where he offers a message of hope and reconciliation.

black liberation theology. if you attend a church with such fringe elemental theology for 20 years, you should have to explain this if you are running for public office. not to mention the president of the United States.:cool:

also, Obama recently jokingly referred to his grandmother as a typical white person. if this statement were made by McCain there would be outcries all across our great f'd up country.:D

SoonerProphet
3/25/2008, 12:37 PM
black liberation theology. if you attend a church with such fringe elemental theology for 20 years, you should have to explain this if you are running for public office. not to mention the president of the United States.:cool:

also, Obama recently jokingly referred to his grandmother as a typical white person. if this statement were made by McCain there would be outcries all across our great f'd up country.:D

pic, this is so last week:D i've made my peace with it, folks gonna feel how they feel...if some who would never vote for the cat anyway get all offended by language, so be it. blacks and black churches survived as a group and culture do to ministers like wright. right or wrong, that is how i see it.

during the Cold war we were big fans of liberation theology. hell, we even recognized the power of Islam as a force against communism. today we want our great f'd up country to think they hate us for who we are.

picasso
3/25/2008, 12:40 PM
I know man but I don't get on here as much as I used to.:D

my point is Obama has to answer for this. it's disturbing to many folks. He's gotta answer the same way Romney and others have had to for their church, faith, etc..

King Crimson
3/25/2008, 12:40 PM
in what way is Romney a comparison?

he's a mormon. you know how many non-protestant president's we've had? take a guess.

i don't think he was treated unfairly though we've all been taught by the Limbaugh, Colter, and Hannity genius branch of the GOP tree....there is thing called "true conservatism" that he represented.

Pricetag
3/25/2008, 12:46 PM
I know man but I don't get on here as much as I used to.:D

my point is Obama has to answer for this. it's disturbing to many folks. He's gotta answer the same way Romney and others have had to for their church, faith, etc..
He has to answer for it, but will anyone be listening?

This whole thing to me is a fallacy wrapped in a fallacy. These quotes are from Mr. Wright, therefore, they define him--they have always been his beliefs, and they are what he has preached for his entire career. Mr. Obama has gone to this church for over 20 years, therefore, the quotes define him, also.

I can understand why this stuff might give some people heartburn, but they're going to have to do some leg work to verify their suspicions in an intellectually honest manner, and I don't think many these days are willing to put forth that kind of effort when the candidate is on the other side of the particular campaign. It's a one-shot kill, and a very lazy way of thinking, IMO.

SCOUT
3/25/2008, 01:03 PM
It is not that I agree with what he said, it is that I have the ability to understand that folks have differing points of view. In addition to that, I also have thick enough skin not to get my dander up when I hear opposing viewpoints and feel that their past and experiences may offer insight into their opinions.

Still, I would like some of the more vocal detractors to offer up some direct quotes that point to racism, offensive language, and the like. Has he stated that he wants to eat white baby spleens? Or is this one of those context issues where we could see other sermons where he offers a message of hope and reconciliation.

Are you talking about Trent Lott?

picasso
3/25/2008, 05:06 PM
in what way is Romney a comparison?

he's a mormon. you know how many non-protestant president's we've had? take a guess.

i don't think he was treated unfairly though we've all been taught by the Limbaugh, Colter, and Hannity genius branch of the GOP tree....there is thing called "true conservatism" that he represented.

huh? Romney took a big hit from the conservative base because of his religion/theology. And dude, Coulter and Hannity draw a rare audience, myself not included.
Limbaugh is too 90's.

Civicus_Sooner
3/26/2008, 05:47 PM
during the Cold war we were big fans of liberation theology. hell, we even recognized the power of Islam as a force against communism. today we want our great f'd up country to think they hate us for who we are.Who's this "we?" Talk about blanket statements. Who cares what our government did decades ago. Sometimes allies change, goals change, and sh!t happens. Just because we used some pathetic third world goofballs to keep our planet from being turned into the galaxy's only neon sign doesn't mean we are married to them forever. You seem to still be living in the Carter/Reagan years.

picasso
3/28/2008, 01:42 PM
hey, Obama is quoted as saying Imus should have been fired over his debacle and that Obama would never hire the guy.


heh.


:texan:

picasso
3/28/2008, 02:00 PM
I don't know who I am going to vote for. After I am finished reading Audcity of hope. I am going to find some stuff on Mccain.

I like multiple things about all the canidates

Faith of My Fathers is a good book from McCain but you can't get everything you need from a candidate by their books. Books tend to be fluffy and full of b.s. Try looking at what they actually DO and not just what they say and write.

peace.

shaun4411
3/28/2008, 02:03 PM
i like mccain because he has a much less dodgy past than the two dems.

mdklatt
3/28/2008, 02:25 PM
i like mccain because he has a much less dodgy past than the two dems.

Except for the "Keating Five" S&L scandal and whatnot.

Civicus_Sooner
3/28/2008, 04:06 PM
Faith of My Fathers is a good book from McCain but you can't get everything you need from a candidate by their books. Books tend to be fluffy and full of b.s. Try looking at what they actually DO and not just what they say and write.

peace.
So true!

Spek

Civicus_Sooner
3/28/2008, 04:09 PM
Except for the "Keating Five" S&L scandal and whatnot.
that dog won't hunt. He got a slap on the wrist and his involvement was tangential at best.

mdklatt
3/28/2008, 08:06 PM
that dog won't hunt. He got a slap on the wrist and his involvement was tangential at best.

Getting in at least shin-deep with criminals regardless of any of your own wrongdoing is the very definition of "dodgy". And do you think that's the only skeleton in his closet? I'm not saying that's anything to hold against McCain, but if that's your standard you're going to have a tough time finding anybody to vote for.

JohnnyMack
3/28/2008, 09:02 PM
What about McCain fighting for the south during the Civil War. Should we hold that against him?

Big Red Ron
3/28/2008, 09:24 PM
What about McCain fighting for the south during the Civil War. Should we hold that against him?Shoot, what about Obama's Mama's slave owning ancestors? We just can't have that.
:texan: