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SicEmBaylor
3/10/2008, 01:54 AM
Sounds absurd, right? Not so much...

I submit for your consideration the possibility that an Obama victory in the fall is the best outcome for the long term health of the conservative movement.

Let us first acknowledge that the conservative movement is currently in a pretty poor state. For the last 8 years we have had a President that squandered a conservative majority that had us in control of all three branches of government. At best, you could say that the President failed to sufficiently pursuit or achieve a limited-government agenda -- at worst, you could easily argue that the President is not even a conservative (in the sense of believing in the reduction of the Federal government). The Republican Congress was just as guilty as the President by signing off on every program of government expansion in order to "broaden" the base of the Republican party by buying off the electorate with new mandates purely to appeal to certain constituencies that Karl Rove and other advisers believed would strengthen the electoral viability of the party. The Republican Party's abandonment of some of its core principles combined with the rampant corruption and embarrassing escapades of members of Congress and the administration caused the nation to lose faith in the party and our showing in the last election is evidence of that loss of faith.

There is excellent empirical evidence showing that when a Democratic President governs from the far left, the result is a strong conservative backlash that strengths the Republican Party and rejuvenates conservatism especially the limited-government wing of the party.

For example, when Lyndon Johnson over-reached with the "Great Society" the "silent majority" of American turned to Richard Nixon who, although not all that conservative, pledged to re-establish law and order and reign in an over-reaching government. When Jimmy Carter's micro-management of the economy brought economic disaster and national embarrassments in foreign affairs, Americans turned to Ronald Reagan and the Regan revolution was born. Finally, Clinton governed from the far-left for his first two years in office which resulted in the 1994 Republican takeover of Congress, the Contract with America, and a conservative renaissance that lasted until 1998 or so.

McCain's biggest problem is that he's just conservative enough to allow conservatism to limp along in its current state for at least another four years. His Presidency would do absolutely nothing to cause a strengthening and a badly needed rejuvenation of the conservative movement. It's not that I believe he would be a bad President, but I believe the party and the movement need to get back in touch with its principles of limited-government. McCain isn't necessarily at odds with most of those principles, but he isn't the same kind of ideological force that Regan was.

Conservatives need to bite the bullet this election and realize that it may be better to lose in the short term in exchange for long term gain. It always hurts to lose, but rest assured that a President as liberal as Barack Obama is sure to unite the party and reinforce limited-government activists in a way that a Republican President (especially McCain) simply can not at this time. Every now and then a good blood letting is needed, and the Republican Party certainly needs to bleed a little before it can start to heal.

This November, have the courage to vote for Barack Obama.

olevetonahill
3/10/2008, 02:21 AM
Take it to the RLIMC forum

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
3/10/2008, 02:21 AM
I am fearful that a near total abandonment of national defense would occur with an Obama presidency. I'll go along with ya and not vote for pres if Hellery is the democrat, but I would feel compelled to vote for McCain if Obama is the dem nominee. At least, that's the way I see it right now.

SicEmBaylor
3/10/2008, 02:28 AM
I am fearful that a near total abandonment of national defense would occur with an Obama presidency. I'll go along with ya and not vote for pres if Hellery is the democrat, but I would feel compelled to vote for McCain if Obama is the dem nominee. At least, that's the way I see it right now.

He's not going to totally abandon national defense. It's absurd to think that, not only would it be the end of his Presidency but it'd likely constitute the end of the Democratic Party for a decade or more. Every President would absolutely defend this nation if attacked, but I don't equate ending a war against a country that didn't attack us or even pose a threat to our territorial integrity as abandoning our national defense.

Believe it or not, the country can survive 4 years of a Democrat.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
3/10/2008, 02:33 AM
He's not going to totally abandon national defense. It's absurd to think that, not only would it be the end of his Presidency but it'd likely constitute the end of the Democratic Party for a decade or more. Every President would absolutely defend this nation if attacked, but I don't equate ending a war against a country that didn't attack us or even pose a threat to our territorial integrity as abandoning our national defense.

Believe it or not, the country can survive 4 years of a Democrat.I am inclined to think he's more extreme than you think he is.

SicEmBaylor
3/10/2008, 02:34 AM
I am inclined to think he's more extreme than you think he is.

I promise you that if the nation is directly attacked by any nation or group then he will respond militarily and he will almost certainly continue the war in Afghanistan or bring it to an acceptable conclusion.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
3/10/2008, 02:41 AM
I promise you that if the nation is directly attacked by any nation or group then he will respond militarily and he will almost certainly continue the war in Afghanistan or bring it to an acceptable conclusion.I think so, too. But, I don't think he is as capable of military leadership as even Hillary would be. Whatever, he is TOO disturbing to me, whereas Hillary is considerably less fearsome. I would be willing to let her run roughshod, at this point.

SicEmBaylor
3/10/2008, 02:45 AM
I think so, too. But, I don't think he is as capable of military leadership as even Hillary would be. Whatever, he is TOO disturbing to me, whereas Hillary is considerably less fearsome. I would be willing to let her run roughshod, at this point.

She's faking it. Trust me, there's not a more radical leftist to be found than Hillary Clinton. Hillary is a true-believer who views politics like war that can only be won by the unconditional surrender of the enemy.

Obama is far far more trust-worthy. In the past, she has talked about nothing but destroying Republicans and conservatism -- he openly wants to bring them into his camp. He's pledged many many times that he wants to bring conservatives into his administration while she just talks about winning.

Hillary's makeover into a moderate since she joined the Senate has been amazing. I can't believe conservatives actually consider her to be the more acceptable choice.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
3/10/2008, 02:54 AM
She's faking it. Trust me, there's not a more radical leftist to be found than Hillary Clinton. Hillary is a true-believer who views politics like war that can only be won by the unconditional surrender of the enemy.

Obama is far far more trust-worthy. In the past, she has talked about nothing but destroying Republicans and conservatism -- he openly wants to bring them into his camp. He's pledged many many times that he wants to bring conservatives into his administration while she just talks about winning.

Hillary's makeover into a moderate since she joined the Senate has been amazing. I can't believe conservatives actually consider her to be the more acceptable choice.It's just the nat. defense issue that bothers me about Obama. Who doesn't know that Hillary is just as leftist as Obama? IOW, I agree with you in principal. I just think Obama is too dangerous to elect.

SicEmBaylor
3/10/2008, 03:16 AM
Fair enough. I disagree, but fair enough.

Scott D
3/10/2008, 06:40 AM
It's just the nat. defense issue that bothers me about Obama. Who doesn't know that Hillary is just as leftist as Obama? IOW, I agree with you in principal. I just think Obama is too dangerous to elect.

You do know that Hillary's model for an ideal government is East Germany circa 1968 don't you? But yet you continue to think Obama is more 'leftist'...amazing.

Howzit
3/10/2008, 08:05 AM
I promise you that if the nation is directly attacked by any nation or group then he will respond militarily and he will almost certainly continue the war in Afghanistan or bring it to an acceptable conclusion.

What were his comments concerning bombing terrorist camps in Pakistan if they were known? I admit I don't remember the full context of those remarks, but I also remember thinking that they displayed an amazing level of naivetee in terms of how he would approach an Islamic state that has been a partner in fighting terrorism AND has a nuclear device.

That or he's just plain full of ****.

Sooner_Bob
3/10/2008, 08:21 AM
That or he's just plain full of ****.

I'd say they all are . . .

Widescreen
3/10/2008, 08:28 AM
Hillary, Obama and McCain are the new axis of evil. ;)

I don't view Obama or Hillary winning as a good thing for our country (and McCain only slightly better). To me, what's good for our country is more important than parties or ideology.

King Crimson
3/10/2008, 09:00 AM
Trust me, there's not a more radical leftist to be found than Hillary Clinton.

a truly absurd and indefensible statement.

has she advocated the abolition of private property, state control of industry?

i don't care for Hillary but if you are gonna work the student of the history politics angle, statements like this are narrow, inaccurate and embarrassing.

OklahomaTuba
3/10/2008, 09:30 AM
Trust me, there's not a more radical leftist to be found than Hillary Clinton.
BHO has shown to be more of a radical leftist than Billary ever has. He is one of the MOST liberal Senators, and (with the exception of bombing Pakistan) says time and time again he is pro-white flag.

No matter how you slice it, they are both isolationist socialists, and electing that will not be good in the long run.

Ike
3/10/2008, 09:36 AM
Hillary, Obama and McCain are the new axis of evil. ;)

I don't view Obama or Hillary winning as a good thing for our country (and McCain only slightly better). To me, what's good for our country is more important than parties or ideology.


Unfortunately, whats good for the country rarely makes it onto a ballot.

JohnnyMack
3/10/2008, 09:58 AM
What were his comments concerning bombing terrorist camps in Pakistan if they were known? I admit I don't remember the full context of those remarks, but I also remember thinking that they displayed an amazing level of naivetee in terms of how he would approach an Islamic state that has been a partner in fighting terrorism AND has a nuclear device.

That or he's just plain full of ****.

He said the same thing Dick Armitage did post 09/11. Basically that if you knowingly harbor Al Qaeda operatives and training facilities and won't do anything about it, we will.

That doesn't strike me as naive as much as it does trying to cut the head off the snake.

OklahomaTuba
3/10/2008, 10:03 AM
"If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will," Obama said.
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0132206420070801

I wonder if he has the position now???

mikeelikee
3/10/2008, 10:15 AM
The next president will probably get two Supreme Court appointment opportunities. I really don't want two more Ginsburgs on the bench.

TexasLidig8r
3/10/2008, 10:23 AM
Sic.. how is it that true "conservatives" seem to be very liberal on personal and social issues? It seems the "less government is better" mantra falls hollow when discussing social issues, which most conservatives believe the more government intervention the better?

achiro
3/10/2008, 10:23 AM
Sic, I thought you knew a bunch about politics, that was one of the goofiest political commentaries I have ever seen you type.
The dude voted against going into Iraq when ALL intel we had at the time said some bad juju was going on over there. Even Hellary voted to go in. That scares the sheet out of me and should anyone else that really pays attention. :pop: ;) :D

bri
3/10/2008, 10:26 AM
I am inclined to think he's more extreme than you think he is.

Well, no sh*t Sherlock. What's next, telling us water is wet?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
3/10/2008, 12:04 PM
The next president will probably get two Supreme Court appointment opportunities. I really don't want two more Ginsburgs on the bench.McCain has called Alito "too conservative" or something like that. (we may be screwed with the SC no matter who the next POTUS is)

JohnnyMack
3/10/2008, 12:13 PM
McCain has called Alito "too conservative" or something like that. (we may be screwed with the SC no matter who the next POTUS is)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHH

OUR CONSPIRACIES, LET US SHOW YOU THEM!@!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
3/10/2008, 12:21 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHH

OUR CONSPIRACIES, LET US SHOW YOU THEM!@!!!!!!!!!!!!!Sounds like you are denying McCain said that.

JohnnyMack
3/10/2008, 12:27 PM
Looks like your reading comprehension isn't that good.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
3/10/2008, 01:57 PM
Looks like your reading comprehension isn't that good.What did McCain say, if not that Alito was too conservative?(you don't have to insult me, or anyone on the board, you know)

JohnnyMack
3/10/2008, 02:07 PM
If I have to explain my barely funny jokes, they become less funny. Please don't ruin me.

tommieharris91
3/10/2008, 02:41 PM
a truly absurd and indefensible statement.

has she advocated the abolition of private property, state control of industry?

i don't care for Hillary but if you are gonna work the student of the history politics angle, statements like this are narrow, inaccurate and embarrassing.

Wouldn't this be against the First Amendment as an abridgement of free peaceable assembly?

TUSooner
3/10/2008, 03:17 PM
"The worse, the better!" ~ V.I. Lenin
But really, Big Gubment is a ratchet, once it gets big, it never gets small again. The best one can hope for is that it will get bigger more slowly. Obama would make gubment bigger faster.

Chuck Bao
3/10/2008, 04:28 PM
I think you guys are way over-exaggerating. Presidential candidates tend to talk to their support base prior to the nomination and then move to the center after getting the nomination. Obama would do the same.

Actually, Iím not feeling too bad about any of the three remaining candidates. They will most certainly be an improvement over the current administration.

I assume that a Democrat president elect would feel more pressure and possibly do more on high publicity surgical strikes and such. This would be potentially high win and little commitment and cost in the longer run. Okay, thatís open to debate whether that strategy would be better.

I do know this fact Ė you canít have a strong military for very long without a strong economy. There has to be a reckoning of the Bush years.

Personally, Iím having a great deal of difficulty understanding this spreading financial disaster in the US Ė which some are saying is the worst since the Great Depression.

As I understand the financial solutions offered by the three remaining candidates, they all seem to be very similar.

Iím a fiscal conservative and I donít buy into the idea that tax cuts are always the best solution. That is looking from an economic view instead of a personal one, this is very different than 10 years ago. Stimulus measures is just leading to higher trade deficits and not really helping the economy now dependent on foreign imports.

Anyway, check out the key conservative mouthpieces. They arenít really arguing that at this time, as Iím hearing them. The US economy had been supported by the hi-tech medical, media, agribusiness, financial services and the housing market. The housing market and financial services are not the supporting factors they once were.

Maybe, substantially lower interest rates will stop declining housing prices and direct support will bail out the financial services industry. I still think that we are in for a longer and deeper recession than most commentators are saying.

Lower interest rates will keep the dollar weak and further raise oil prices as the smart money (you can read that as the evil money) is speculating against the dollar.

Sometimes you need to swallow the bitter pill to get your house in order. It is the reality but the so-called ďsmart moneyĒ sometimes can be so destructive as they were in the Asian economic crisis 10 years ago. Iím still really, really bitter about that.

So, my vote will go to the one who admits to there being a problem on the economic front.

On social issues, Iím 100% going Democrat and this is the deciding factor for me. The Republicans have totally flopped over into intrusive territory after doing their dirty deed in bed with the religious right. People, these Republicans are so against the libertarian ideals of freedom that is if freaky crazy.

Iím going to do something stupid crazy here: I hate the whorns so much, but I have to give props to TexasLidig8r, as dirty as they makes me feel. But, he has a point.

Stop that, please.


Sic.. how is it that true "conservatives" seem to be very liberal on personal and social issues? It seems the "less government is better" mantra falls hollow when discussing social issues, which most conservatives believe the more government intervention the better?

skycat
3/10/2008, 04:52 PM
I get amazed reading threads like these how infrequently I agree with anyone.

Anyone at all.

Vaevictis
3/10/2008, 05:49 PM
It seems the "less government is better" mantra falls hollow when discussing social issues, which most conservatives believe the more government intervention the better?

Recently, they've wanted the government just small enough to fit into your shorts.

shaun4411
3/10/2008, 06:33 PM
"Lets pull out of iraq. war is bad. we need change. lets pull out of iraq and attack pakistan."

love,

barack

StoopTroup
3/10/2008, 06:41 PM
You forgot..."I never voted for going to War."

shaun4411
3/10/2008, 07:10 PM
im not a huge obama fan, but the dolts that actually think he swore into congress on a quar'an are tools. and why was him wearing traditional local clothing and wearing a turban a big deal? why was that picture a big deal? why is his middle name a big deal?

i think the whole battle within clinton and obama is a fun spectactle to watch. the disintegration of a political party is kinda neat. this is the only reason mccain could ever win. unless he grows a hairy pair sometime between now and november.

bri
3/10/2008, 09:37 PM
Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.....pointless......

Heh.

SicEmBaylor
3/10/2008, 09:40 PM
Sic.. how is it that true "conservatives" seem to be very liberal on personal and social issues? It seems the "less government is better" mantra falls hollow when discussing social issues, which most conservatives believe the more government intervention the better?

Easy, I don't consider those individuals to be real conservatives.
You're completely right.

GottaHavePride
3/10/2008, 09:47 PM
I'll throw this in one more time"

Uncaring Random Fluctuations of the Space-Time Continuum, I hate the either-or logical fallacy that is the two-party political system.

CatfishSooner
3/10/2008, 09:51 PM
I'll throw this in one more time"

Uncaring Random Fluctuations of the Space-Time Continuum, I hate the either-or logical fallacy that is the two-party political system.

Let's start a new party! ...the...Sooner Party!!!! Rus for POTUS!!!!

Whet
3/10/2008, 09:56 PM
Sic, I thought you knew a bunch about politics, that was one of the goofiest political commentaries I have ever seen you type.
The dude voted against going into Iraq when ALL intel we had at the time said some bad juju was going on over there. Even Hellary voted to go in. That scares the sheet out of me and should anyone else that really pays attention. :pop: ;) :D

No, Berry did not vote against going into Iraq. At the time of the vote, Berry was still a state senator......

CatfishSooner
3/10/2008, 09:58 PM
No, Berry did not vote against going into Iraq. At the time of the vote, Berry was still a state senator......

:eek:

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!!!!

GottaHavePride
3/10/2008, 10:09 PM
No, Berry did not vote against going into Iraq. At the time of the vote, Berry was still a state senator......

I apologize, achiro, but Whet's post deserves one of these:

http://untitled.org/img/own3d.jpg

achiro
3/10/2008, 11:32 PM
No, Berry did not vote against going into Iraq. At the time of the vote, Berry was still a state senator......

It took me a minute to figure out what the heck you where hammering me for :O Then I found it so pardon me, it should have read, "The dude would have voted against going into Iraq when ALL intel we had at the time said some bad juju was going on over there." So sue me for a typo.:rolleyes:
Still it is no secret, he has said it several times.

Vaevictis
3/10/2008, 11:37 PM
Meh. I like Obama, and I still say: It's easy to say how you would have voted.

achiro
3/11/2008, 07:50 AM
Meh. I like Obama, and I still say: It's easy to say how you would have voted.

He was saying it back in 02 after the vote but before we actually went in to Iraq.

Vaevictis
3/11/2008, 08:18 AM
He was saying it back in 02 after the vote but before we actually went in to Iraq.

Even so: It's still easy to say how you would have voted. History books don't remember 70 years later that you said you would have voted against a war, they remember when you did vote against a war.

SanJoaquinSooner
3/11/2008, 08:51 AM
Clinton is rather centrist as far as Donks go. She has to throw a bone to the liberal, protectionist unions to have a chance at the nomination - just like the pubs have to oppose free trade with Cuba to have any chance of carrying Florida.

I would probably vote for Clinton in Nov, but will pick McCain over Obama. Obama gives good speech, though.

SicEmBaylor
3/11/2008, 02:53 PM
a truly absurd and indefensible statement.

has she advocated the abolition of private property, state control of industry?

i don't care for Hillary but if you are gonna work the student of the history politics angle, statements like this are narrow, inaccurate and embarrassing.

I assumed that it was understood that I was speaking merely within the realm of electoral politics and not as a general rule. Obviously, there are bigger leftists to be had in general, but probably not within American electoral politics. I think Bernie Sanders probably has her beat, but he's likely the only one.

StoopTroup
3/11/2008, 04:24 PM
I like a candidate who scares the heck out of the politicians who continue to screw up our Country.

SicEmBaylor
3/11/2008, 04:28 PM
I like a candidate who scares the heck out of the politicians who continue to screw up our Country.

I don't blame them. I blame us.

StoopTroup
3/11/2008, 04:39 PM
I don't blame them. I blame us.

What did I do?

SicEmBaylor
3/11/2008, 04:53 PM
What did I do?

Vote.

StoopTroup
3/11/2008, 05:20 PM
So...

I should I vote or not? :confused:

SicEmBaylor
3/11/2008, 05:24 PM
So...

I should I vote or not? :confused:

In general, I encourage people not to.

mdklatt
3/11/2008, 05:33 PM
Our leadership needs an enema. Always vote against the incumbent or the incumbent party.

A question for all you partisan voters: Do you really think things would be better if your side won every election? Think of what a festering pile of corruption and rubber-stamp politics that would create. Having one party in control of Congress and the White House leads nowhere but up **** Creek.

UP WITH GRIDLOCK!

StoopTroup
3/11/2008, 05:34 PM
Our leadership needs an enema. Always vote against the incumbent or the incumbent party.

A question for all you partisan voters: Do you really think things would be better if your side won every election? Think of what a festering pile of corruption and rubber-stamp politics that would create. Having one party in control of Congress and the White House leads nowhere but up **** Creek.

UP WITH GRIDLOCK!

Exactly.