Good Morning...Weapons Raid Goes Woefully Awry in Wacky and Windy Waco

[Okla-homey]

February 28, 1993 ATF raids Branch Davidian compound

On this day 15 years ago, at "Mount Carmel" in Waco, Texas, agents of the U.S. Treasury Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) launch a raid against the Branch Davidian compound as part of an investigation into illegal possession of firearms and explosives by the cult.

As the agents attempted to penetrate the complex, gunfire erupted, beginning an extended gun battle that left four ATF agents dead and 15 wounded. Six Branch Davidians were fatally wounded, and several more were injured, including David Koresh, the cult's leader.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8761/zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzkores.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
David Koresh, AKA Vernon Wayne Howell

After 45 minutes of shooting, the ATF agents withdrew, and a cease-fire was negotiated over the telephone. The operation, which involved more than 100 ATF agents, was the one of the largest ever mounted by the bureau and resulted in the highest casualties of any ATF operation.

David Koresh was born Vernon Wayne Howell in Houston, Texas, in 1959. In 1981, he joined the Branch Davidians, a sect of the Seventh Day Adventist Church founded in 1934 by a Bulgarian immigrant named Victor Houteff.

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/429/zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzvt.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Victor Houteff

Koresh, who possessed an exhaustive knowledge of the Bible, rapidly rose in the hierarchy of the small religious community, eventually entering into a power struggle with the Davidians' leader, George Roden who had led the cult since 1960.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1926/zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzroden000.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
I couldn't find a pic of George Roden, but he did seek the Democratic nomination for president in 1976. :eek:

For a short time, Koresh retreated with his followers to eastern Texas, but in late 1987 he returned to "Mount Carmel" with seven armed followers and raided the compound, severely wounding Roden. Koresh went on trial for attempted murder, but the charge was dropped after his case was declared a mistrial.

By 1990, he was the leader of the Branch Davidians and legally changed his name to David Koresh, with "David" representing his status as head of the biblical House of David, and "Koresh" standing for the Hebrew name for Cyrus, the Persian king who allowed the Jews held captive in Babylon to return to Israel.

Koresh took several wives at Mount Carmel and fathered at least 12 children from these women, several of whom were as young as 12 or 13 when they became pregnant. There is also evidence that Koresh may have harshly disciplined some of the 100 or so Branch Davidians living inside the compound, particularly his children.

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/5595/zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzkoreshfamily1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Koresh and one of his wives and their children

A central aspect of Koresh's religious teachings was his assertion that the apocalyptic events predicted in the Bible's book of Revelation were imminent, making it necessary, he asserted, for the Davidians to stockpile weapons and explosives in preparation.

Following the unsuccessful ATF raid, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) took over the situation. A standoff with the Branch Davidians stretched into seven weeks, and little progress was made in the telephone negotiations as the Davidians had stockpiled years of food and other necessities before the raid.

On April 18, U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno approved a tear-gas assault on the compound, and at approximately 6:00 a.m. on April 19 the Branch Davidians were informed of the imminent attack and asked to surrender, which they did not.

A few minutes later, two National Guard combat vehicles under the command of the FBI Agent-in-Charge began inserting gas into the building and were joined by miltary reserve component armor, which fired tear-gas canisters through the compound's windows. The Branch Davidians, many with gas masks on, refused to evacuate, and by 11:40 a.m. the last of some 100 tear-gas canisters was fired into the compound.

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/9823/zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzolmtan.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Note the Alabama flag flown from the aerial of the lead National Guard tank

Just after noon, a fire erupted at one or more locations on the compound, and minutes later nine Davidians fled the rapidly spreading blaze. Gunfire was reported but ceased as the compound was completely engulfed by the flames.

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/4499/zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzwacofire027oh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Conditions were perfect for a complete conflagration whipped by the extraordinarily windy day in Waco

Koresh and at least 80 of his followers, including 22 children, died during the federal government's second disastrous assault on Mount Carmel. The FBI and Justice Department maintained there was conclusive evidence that the Branch Davidian members ignited the fire, citing an eyewitness account and various forensic data.

Of the gunfire reported during the fire, the government argued that the Davidians were either killing each other as part of a suicide pact or were killing dissenters who attempted to escape the Koresh-ordered suicide by fire.

Most of the surviving Branch Davidians contested this official position, as do some critics in the press and elsewhere, whose charges against the ATF and FBI's handling of the Waco standoff ranged from incompetence to premeditated murder. In 1999, the FBI admitted that they used tear-gas grenades in the assault, which have been known to cause fires because of their incendiary properties.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3844/insane7zo7tv.jpg

[Sooner_Bob]

I remember where I was when all this went down . . . truly a sad day.

[Turd_Ferguson]

TTWEW

[Whet]

Unfortunate episode in our history. Not only did it cost the lives of the ATF agents, Davidians, but also the innocent OKC victims.....

[TUSooner]

a cluster**** any way you look at it

[BigRedJed]

Unfortunate episode in our history. Not only did it cost the lives of the ATF agents, Davidians, but also the innocent OKC victims.....
I'm sorry; that is some offensive bull**** right there. What cost the lives of the "innocent OKC victims" -- does that mean there were OKC victims who weren't innocent, BTW? -- was hate. A full-of-himself kook who thought that authority by its nature is evil. A crazy-***, fringe-thinking nutjob who used Waco as an EXCUSE to kill and maim innocent people in Oklahoma City. Had Waco not happened, he would have used some other excuse to exact revenge on the government he despised.

Other than a very cursory connection, that is, the fact that an anti-government nutjob visited the site of the Waco tragedy, and used it as an excuse to whip himself into a frenzy, one thing had exactly ZERO to do with the other.

You're right. Waco was a horrible tragedy. One that the government handled poorly. And yet one where the majority of the blame lays squarely at the feet of some of the people who died in that fire.

To say that the government's handling of Waco somehow CAUSED the tragedy in Oklahoma City only validates Tim McVeigh's actions on some level. That is a very, very dangerous line of reasoning, my friend.

[Okla-homey]

I'm sorry; that is some offensive bull**** right there. What cost the lives of the "innocent OKC victims" -- does that mean there were OKC victims who weren't innocent, BTW? -- was hate. A full-of-himself kook who thought that authority by its nature is evil. A crazy-***, fringe-thinking nutjob who used Waco as an EXCUSE to kill and maim innocent people in Oklahoma City. Had Waco not happened, he would have used some other excuse to exact revenge on the government he despised.

Other than a very cursory connection, that is, the fact that an anti-government nutjob visited the site of the Waco tragedy, and used it as an excuse to whip himself into a frenzy, one thing had exactly ZERO to do with the other.

You're right. Waco was a horrible tragedy. One that the government handled poorly. And yet one where the majority of the blame lays squarely at the feet of some of the people who died in that fire.

To say that the government's handling of Waco somehow CAUSED the tragedy in Oklahoma City only validates Tim McVeigh's actions on some level. That is a very, very dangerous line of reasoning, my friend.

the scum (whose name I wil not write) also picked the day to do his evil deed based on Hitler's birthday I seem to recall.

[Rogue]

Strange days.

[Whet]

I'm saying that guy claimed wacko was a reason for his terrorism. NOT any govenment action.....

[MamaMia]

Some very poor decision making on the part of Janet Reno.

[BigRedJed]

I'm saying that guy claimed wacko was a reason for his terrorism. NOT any govenment action.....
He claimed that his bombing of the Murrah building was justified because of the actions taken by the government in Waco. He claimed that his cowardly, detestful act was a direct result of what the government did, and that it was the opening salvo in a revolution to overthrow the government.

The Unabomber blamed technology for his actions. Maybe those killings were caused by Dell, or Texas Instruments.

Bottom line: the horrific Waco tragedy, no matter who was at fault, was not responsible for the OKC bombing. An evil lunatic was.

[Whet]

take a pill and relax - I merely stated what he claimed, as did you in your response.....

[BigRedJed]

"Taking a pill" doesn't bring back those 168 people, or honor their memory. What DOES honor their memory is setting straight people who think or casually state that Waco was responsible for their tragic deaths. Timothy McVeigh was responsible for their deaths. HATE was responsible for their deaths. Get it?

[soonerscuba]

Some very poor decision making on the part of Janet Reno.

I would consider being a pederast, armed to the hilt in a commune in which you allowed to be set ablaze and killed your followers poorer decision making, but let's blame Janet Reno. You'll never hear me say it was squeaky-clean on the government's part, but when you look at a fringe militia-cult and the Clinton administration and side with the cult you are no different than a "truther".

[jkjsooner]

I have an uncle who's a lifelong police officer. He's very conservative and very pro-police. He, of course, if very pro-gun. In this one case he somehow found a way to side with the Branch Dividians.

For the life of me I can't understand how a law enforcement officer could side with a group who killed fellow officers. How can someone conclude that an ATF officer's life is not worthy simply because they disagree with the policies the officer must enforce?

[olevetonahill]

Ok Im gonna weigh in here;)
When The Government Calls In tanks .
When they dont Do a Proper Warrant execution.
AFTER Said Gov. Has Killed an Innocent woman and Child ,By Not Properly executing a Warrant
Then said Gov. Is suspect .
Ive read Most of the Posts here
I Have a feelin some are Closer to these Incidents than we Know.
Was Randy Weaver Innocent ? a Jury said YES .
As far as the Wackos in Waco , Both sides of this Issue Disturbed Me . Waco Came Not to Long after Jonesville Cyanide thingy .
In any thing that Involves the Death Of Innocents , and The Gov.
There will Be conspiracy theories
I really believe here that , Every one agrees The Lose Of Life In waco was Terrible
The dead ******* that Blew up the Murrah Building , was a Fruitcake loop . who used the Waco thing as an excuse !
All 168 Of the People who died In OKC were Innocent .
Some Crazy Mofo Decided they needed to die to atone fer the Govs. Mistakes That He percieved !
Just My Buck and a 1/2s worth !

[olevetonahill]

I have an uncle who's a lifelong police officer. He's very conservative and very pro-police. He, of course, if very pro-gun. In this one case he somehow found a way to side with the Branch Dividians.

For the life of me I can't understand how a law enforcement officer could side with a group who killed fellow officers. How can someone conclude that an ATF officer's life is not worthy simply because they disagree with the policies the officer must enforce?

I think you should Talk to Him again .
The way the Raid went Down, ATF Knew they had weapons , Knew they were ready to Defend their "Church "
ATF decides to storm the Place .
Bad decisions all around . After the Wackos Found out It was the Legit PoPOs they were to Scared to Give up .Just MY guess

[Jerk]

I have an uncle who's a lifelong police officer. He's very conservative and very pro-police. He, of course, if very pro-gun. In this one case he somehow found a way to side with the Branch Dividians.

For the life of me I can't understand how a law enforcement officer could side with a group who killed fellow officers. How can someone conclude that an ATF officer's life is not worthy simply because they disagree with the policies the officer must enforce?
There is a Congressional report on the BATFE from 1982 that did not shed a good light on the ATF, most of which was based on their activities in the late 1970's. Google it, and realize that, even though it's old, people have good memories.

"In hearings before BATF's Appropriations Subcommittee, expert evidence was submitted establishing that approximately 75 percent of BATF gun prosecutions were aimed at ordinary citizens who had neither criminal intent nor knowledge, but were enticed by agents into unknowing technical violations."

[mikeelikee]

Anybody else read "The Third Terrorist", by the former Channel 4 news reporter Jayna Davis? Pretty interesting. Apparently, there were quite a few witnesses who saw a Middle-Eastern looking guy with McVeigh that morning. Perhaps "John Doe #2" evolved from some of these witnesses. He then disappeared fairly quickly from the public discussion, after McVeigh was in custody.

[Curly Bill]

The Branch Davidians obviously had issues, and something should have been done about it, but the loss of life on both sides could likely have been avoided had the government handled this better.

They essentially wrote the textbook on what NOT to do in these type situations.

[StoopTroup]

I saw a show the other day where some scientists tried to re-create McVeigh's Truck bomb. TM had told how he configured the containers in the truck and they got a truck like the one TM used and parked it next to a concrete pillar like the pillars in the Murrah Building. They put some sensors in the pillar to measure the impact/blast also.

The crater it left was similar but the truck axle was blown into the crater and not away from the crater as TM's did.

Unfortunately the equipment measuring their attempt was to close to the blast site and it was disabled when they set it off.

They did a 2nd attempt without the truck and a different configeration of the barrels. The folks involved said that having the truck there really wouldn't make much difference when blasting the bomb.

They did an outstanding job in trying to debunk some of the experts opinions IMHO.

We'll probably never know what McVeigh and Nichols actually did...but we'll always remember the innocent who were needlessly killed by those two idiots.

God Bless the Fallen.

ST

[olevetonahill]

Anybody else read "The Third Terrorist", by the former Channel 4 news reporter Jayna Davis? Pretty interesting. Apparently, there were quite a few witnesses who saw a Middle-Eastern looking guy with McVeigh that morning. Perhaps "John Doe #2" evolved from some of these witnesses. He then disappeared fairly quickly from the public discussion, after McVeigh was in custody.

Here we Go with the Conspiracy theories .
My Dad , Bless His Yellow Dog Democrat Heart Went to His Grave Convinced
Nixon was Involved With JFKs assassination !
BY damgawd
He saw a report that Nixon Flew Into Dallas that Morning. Then Left 2 Hrs befor JFK was shot .
Nevar Heard another word About Nixon from the news . So It had to be a REPUBLICAN conspiracy .
Yall Take a deep Breath;)

[StoopTroup]

Does "Slick Willie" cancel out "Tricky Dick"?

[mikeelikee]

Read the book, then come back and let's discuss. Thanks for playing.

[SoonerBorn68]

Here we Go with the Conspiracy theories .
My Dad , Bless His Yellow Dog Democrat Heart Went to His Grave Convinced
Nixon was Involved With JFKs assassination !
BY damgawd
He saw a report that Nixon Flew Into Dallas that Morning. Then Left 2 Hrs befor JFK was shot .
Nevar Heard another word About Nixon from the news . So It had to be a REPUBLICAN conspiracy .
Yall Take a deep Breath;)

Read the book. Davis makes a very compelling argument & has tons of evidence & paper trails--and it all links together. The only conspiracy is our government not wanting to get into another war with Iraq.

[olevetonahill]

Read the book, then come back and let's discuss. Thanks for playing.
Did this Reporter that wrote the Book That You think Is Gospel . Have More Info Than The PoPos ?
Play with your Conspiracy theories
Thanks for Playin !:rolleyes:

[MamaMia]

I would consider being a pederast, armed to the hilt in a commune in which you allowed to be set ablaze and killed your followers poorer decision making, but let's blame Janet Reno. You'll never hear me say it was squeaky-clean on the government's part, but when you look at a fringe militia-cult and the Clinton administration and side with the cult you are no different than a "truther". You don't have to "side with a cult" to realize that Janet Reno made some very poor decisions. You don't even have to be real smart. Government investigators under her command followed Koresh all over town for months leading up to the fiasco. Apprehending him at a neutral site would have been the intelligent thing to do.

[olevetonahill]

Read the book. Davis makes a very compelling argument & has tons of evidence & paper trails--and it all links together. The only conspiracy is our government not wanting to get into another war with Iraq.
And we did anyway !
The russians and Nixon Killed JFK .
Sorry bro I aint Buying into it !

[SoonerBorn68]

I'm sorry; that is some offensive bull**** right there. What cost the lives of the "innocent OKC victims" -- does that mean there were OKC victims who weren't innocent, BTW? -- was hate. A full-of-himself kook who thought that authority by its nature is evil. A crazy-***, fringe-thinking nutjob who used Waco as an EXCUSE to kill and maim innocent people in Oklahoma City. Had Waco not happened, he would have used some other excuse to exact revenge on the government he despised.


He was what is known in the Middle East as a "lilly white"--meaning somebody who would draw attention away from the real perps. McVeigh was a mercenary who was hired by the Iraqi government to hit a soft target within the US. McVeigh was a weapons expert while serving in Desert Storm who had a change of heart about the war & the US government. I'm not saying it didn't have anything to do with Waco, but the Davidians weren't the entire story.

[Mongo]

"Taking a pill" doesn't bring back those 168 people, or honor their memory. What DOES honor their memory is setting straight people who think or casually state that Waco was responsible for their tragic deaths. Timothy McVeigh was responsible for their deaths. HATE was responsible for their deaths. Get it?


got an axe to grind with Whet?

[SoonerBorn68]

And we did anyway !
The russians and Nixon Killed JFK .
Sorry bro I aint Buying into it !


Oswald killed Kennedy. Alone. I'm not trying to sell anything. I'm only saying after reading Davis' book I believe the story changed so we wouldn't have another war.

[olevetonahill]

In any thing that Involves the Death Of Innocents , and The Gov.
There will Be conspiracy theories
Didnt I already say that ?

[SoonerBorn68]

got an axe to grind with Whet?

Nah. It's OK. He's angry. He's allowed.

[olevetonahill]

Oswald killed Kennedy. Alone. I'm not trying to sell anything. I'm only saying after reading Davis' book I believe the story changed so we wouldn't have another war.
Ive Not Read the Book ,Nor Have I watched , That Movie By Oliver Stone , Or anything Mickal Moore has done
Some shat is Just to far out there

[StoopTroup]

Here's the deal....

If the conspiracy is true...

I'll be on-board once it's official.

The folks who died in that tradgedy and the survivors and the folks involved in the aftermath and recovery, have all been honored.

It should stay that way and we should all continue to honor them all.

Fighting over who thinks there was a cover up isn't something I feel is a positive thing to do.

If someone is trying to make a buck off a conspiracy theory...they should be ashamed.

If they are really interested in finding the truth...then I wish them well.

[SoonerBorn68]

I would suggest reading this.

http://www.jaynadavis.com/

At least be open minded.

[olevetonahill]

;)
Here's the deal....

If the conspiracy is true...

I'll be on-board once it's official.

The folks who died in that tradgedy and the survivors and the folks involved in the aftermath and recovery, have all been honored.

It should stay that way and we should all continue to honor them all.

Fighting over who thinks there was a cover up isn't something I feel is a positive thing to do.

If someone is trying to make a buck off a conspiracy theory...they should be ashamed.

If they are really interested in finding the truth...then I wish them well.

I dont even Like you ! yet Im agreeing with you :P ;)

[StoopTroup]

;)

I dont even Like you ! yet Im agreeing with you :P ;)
Heh...

That show I was watching had one of the Survivors walking along the chairs at the Memorial and the guy personally knew 50+ of the folks. He said the same thing that I say everytime I visit the Memorial.

"Everytime I come here...I get angry".

The Murrah Tradgedy and 9/11 as well as the many other bombings have changed us all forever.

I hope we all continue to do the things we need to do and pass on our Love of Country and the respect of the Fallen in order to keep our Children and our Children's Children informed of the importance of how we recover and become strong in the face of adversity.

[olevetonahill]

Heh...

That show I was watching had one of the Survivors walking along the chairs at the Memorial and the guy personally knew 50+ of the folks. He said the same thing that I say everytime I visit the Memorial.

"Everytime I come here...I get angry".

The Murrah Tradgedy and 9/11 as well as the many other bombings have changed us all forever.

I hope we all continue to do the things we need to do and pass on our Love of Country and the respect of the Fallen in order to keep our Children and our Children's Children informed of the importance of how we recover and become strong in the face of adversity.

Ive Got to Take the Time the next time Im around the City . To Visit that !
Sounds Like me and the Moving Wall !

[BigRedJed]

got an axe to grind with Whet?
Nope. I have an axe to grind with anybody who suggests that somehow the government or anybody other than Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were responsible for destroying the lives, health and families of people I know and care about. I have an axe to grind with people who suggest that the way the ATF handled Waco in some way contributed to the explosion that nearly knocked me off of my feet that morning, and sprayed glass at my feet. I have an axe to grind with someone who is sympathetic to the ideals espoused by the guy who caused people to have to wander dazed into my office for hours after that bombing, blood running down their faces, asking to use the telephone to call family or friends and see if they were alive.

I have an axe to grind with someone who trivializes what happened in Oklahoma City and carelessly suggests that the end result of a situation brought about by a bunch of nutjobs in Waco, somehow caused or justified (even in the slightest) the devastation that I saw on the night of April 19 when, volunteering for the Red Cross, I delivered wheelbarrows to the basement of the Murrah Building's parking garage, still reeking from the explosion.

I don't have an axe to grind with Whet. Are you asking me that because I took issue with him on something the other night, in another thread? Well, I did because it was something I didn't agree with. But I left that in that thread. Unlike what some posters do, I go into each thread with an open mind. I don't chase posters that I've previously disagreed with around, challenging them on everything regardless of subject. It so happens that Whet said something in this thread that I found to be pretty damned offensive, for a lot of reasons. None of them having jack**** to do with who he is, or what he's posted in other threads.

Believe it or not, there are some things in this world that are bigger than this board and who posts on it, or who likes who, or who thinks they're getting jobbed when they post.

But it's nice to see folks on this board so concerned about other posters.

[SicEmBaylor]

Ok Im gonna weigh in here;)
When The Government Calls In tanks .
When they dont Do a Proper Warrant execution.
AFTER Said Gov. Has Killed an Innocent woman and Child ,By Not Properly executing a Warrant
Then said Gov. Is suspect .
Ive read Most of the Posts here
I Have a feelin some are Closer to these Incidents than we Know.
Was Randy Weaver Innocent ? a Jury said YES .
As far as the Wackos in Waco , Both sides of this Issue Disturbed Me . Waco Came Not to Long after Jonesville Cyanide thingy .
In any thing that Involves the Death Of Innocents , and The Gov.
There will Be conspiracy theories
I really believe here that , Every one agrees The Lose Of Life In waco was Terrible
The dead ******* that Blew up the Murrah Building , was a Fruitcake loop . who used the Waco thing as an excuse !
All 168 Of the People who died In OKC were Innocent .
Some Crazy Mofo Decided they needed to die to atone fer the Govs. Mistakes That He percieved !
Just My Buck and a 1/2s worth !

We are of like mind.

[SicEmBaylor]

Nope. I have an axe to grind with anybody who suggests that somehow the government or anybody other than Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were responsible for destroying the lives, health and families of people I know and care about. I have an axe to grind with people who suggest that the way the ATF handled Waco in some way contributed to the explosion that nearly knocked me off of my feet that morning, and sprayed glass at my feet. I have an axe to grind with someone who is sympathetic to the ideals espoused by the guy who caused people to have to wander dazed into my office for hours after that bombing, blood running down their faces, asking to use the telephone to call family or friends and see if they were alive.

I have an axe to grind with someone who trivializes what happened in Oklahoma City and carelessly suggests that the end result of a situation brought about by a bunch of nutjobs in Waco, somehow caused or justified (even in the slightest) the devastation that I saw on the night of April 19 when, volunteering for the Red Cross, I delivered wheelbarrows to the basement of the Murrah Building's parking garage, still reeking from the explosion.

I don't have an axe to grind with Whet. Are you asking me that because I took issue with him on something the other night, in another thread? Well, I did because it was something I didn't agree with. But I left that in that thread. Unlike what some posters do, I go into each thread with an open mind. I don't chase posters that I've previously disagreed with around, challenging them on everything regardless of subject. It so happens that Whet said something in this thread that I found to be pretty damned offensive, for a lot of reasons. None of them having jack**** to do with who he is, or what he's posted in other threads.

Believe it or not, there are some things in this world that are bigger than this board and who posts on it, or who likes who, or who thinks they're getting jobbed when they post.

But it's nice to see folks on this board so concerned about other posters.

I really tend to agree with you. Nobody else is responsible for one's actions but the individual themselves. McVeigh is clearly at fault, and I doubt anyone here would suggest otherwise.

HOWEVER, I really don't think it's that big a leap to point out the obvious -- Waco provided that catalyst that set McVeigh off. I consider this akin to pointing out that WWI led to WWII which doesn't make Hitler any less guilty of killing millions of innocent men, women, and children.

Lots of things were troubling McVeigh and Waco is probably what set the guy off though that's not to say that if Waco hadn't happened that something else would have had the same effect on him.

[BigRedJed]

The.
Dude.
Was.
Only.
Looking.
For.
An.
Excuse.

Jesus.

[SicEmBaylor]

The.
Dude.
Was.
Only.
Looking.
For.
An.
Excuse.

Jesus.

I don't think I said anything inconsistent with that.
I agree and Waco happened to be it. I think I can say that without implying in any shape, form, or fashion that he is relieved of even the slightest amount of responsibility for his actions.

Now, aside from McVeigh, Waco did have a profound impact on a lot of people. Most certainly handled it better than he did.

[BigRedJed]

Oh, and might I add, some people have a hard time separating moderator (which I am only when I need to be) from poster (which I would prefer to be 100% of the time).

You see, besides the fact that I moderate when forced to, I actually enjoy posting on this board and often have an opinion on things. I am pretty confident, in fact CERTAIN, that I have never used mod powers to win an argument in a political thread, or hide the opinion of someone I don't agree with, or threaten to ban someone just for having a dumb opinion. I have also never resorted to namecalling or any of the other bull**** that people resort to.

So if you think that just because I'm a mod that I should keep my personal opinion to myself on everything, well, I disagree.

[Mongo]

wow


I don't have an axe to grind with Whet. Are you asking me that because I took issue with him on something the other night, in another thread? Well, I did because it was something I didn't agree with. But I left that in that thread. Unlike what some posters do, I go into each thread with an open mind. I don't chase posters that I've previously disagreed with around, challenging them on everything regardless of subject. It so happens that Whet said something in this thread that I found to be pretty damned offensive, for a lot of reasons. None of them having jack**** to do with who he is, or what he's posted in other threads.

wow Jed, I really have no ****ing clue to why you even brought up this point, but I will let you go ahead with it. sometimes everyone is allowed to vent

Believe it or not, there are some things in this world that are bigger than this board and who posts on it, or who likes who, or who thinks they're getting jobbed when they post.

I agree with this 100%

But it's nice to see folks on this board so concerned about other posters.

meh, just a question as to why you seem to pontificate on a point in which another poster pretty much agreed with you on yet you took issue with. but you already went a great length to post your long *** reply to me so I will go hide again in fear

[Frozen Sooner]

I don't think I said anything inconsistent with that.
I agree and Waco happened to be it. I think I can say that without implying in any shape, form, or fashion that he is relieved of even the slightest amount of responsibility for his actions.

Now, aside from McVeigh, Waco did have a profound impact on a lot of people. Most certainly handled it better than he did.

Yeah, but some were pretty steamed.

I'm going to Hell.

[BigRedJed]

Oh, he agreed with me? I must have missed that part. I'll go read this thread a bunch more times and see if I can find it...

Thanks for pointing it out.

[Mongo]

Oh, he agreed with me? I must have missed that part. I'll go read this thread a bunch more times and see if I can find it...

Thanks for pointing it out.

YWIA

take a pill and relax - I merely stated what he claimed, as did you in your response.....

get the sand out of your vagina and talk/respond like a man. but you obviously want to argue so go ahead

[OCUDad]

BRJ, is that really you in your avatar? or custom user title, or whatever the heck that is? Because, you know, that dude just looks like a mod.

[SicEmBaylor]

Yeah, but some were pretty steamed.

I'm going to Hell.

They're actually pretty nice folks. I've got up there on several occasions including the 10th anniversary. They're bat-*** crazy of course, but even bat-*** crazy people have a right to be left alone.

They have a little museum on the property and have rebuilt a new church.

[BigRedJed]

Hmmm... ...gee, I read that. I STILL don't see where he agreed with me. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong? :confused:

Or maybe YOU'RE just reading it wrong? :confused:

[Mongo]

this whole court is out of order

[Frozen Sooner]

Bat-**** crazy people who engage in pedophilia and other child abuse do not have a right to be left alone, however.

[BigRedJed]

BRJ, is that really you in your avatar? or custom user title, or whatever the heck that is? Because, you know, that dude just looks like a mod.
Are you talking about my Cecil Samara avatar? Or the Jason White pimp fark that MeanGreenGene did 5 or 6 so years ago in a fark slap-fight with Czar?

[OCUDad]

Yes.

[SicEmBaylor]

Bat-**** crazy people who engage in pedophilia and other child abuse do not have a right to be left alone, however.

The evidence to that is somewhat sketchy. I'm not a Koresh apologist by any means or stretch of the imagination, but technically speaking at worst he'd be guilty of polygamy since the young teenage girls he was marrying had the consent of their parents to marry him.

Also, the ATF wasn't there to issue an arrest warrant on sexual child abuse so that's somewhat like justifying the Iraq war after the fact by claiming it was a war of liberation. That's noble and what not but certainly not the original justification for action.

I don't want to get too deep in a defense of Koresh though since I think there were plenty of legitimate questions concerning his activities there. I do believe the government screwed the whole thing up to such a degree that everyone involved in the decision making process from Janet Reno down to the local office chief of the ATF should have been fired and/or resigned.

[Frozen Sooner]

Technically it was still pedophilia, as someone's status as being married or unmarried has no bearing on whether or not someone is ****ing a person who is no way, shape, or form capable of giving informed consent.

Technically, he'd still be guilty of statutory rape, as no state in the Union-recognizes a polygamous marriage as legitimate.

But you are correct-they did not justify Waco as a pedophile bust. They justified it as a bust of people illegally stockpiling weapons.

[SicEmBaylor]

This all goes to show that there are some mighty weird people in Waco.

The Antioch people down here have always scared me more than the Davidians.

[Mongo]

Hmmm... ...gee, I read that. I STILL don't see where he agreed with me. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong? :confused:

Or maybe YOU'RE just reading it wrong? :confused:

okay, I took the time to actually read this thread, and whet seemed to say that McDoosh used wacko as an excuse for the Murrah bombing


I delivered wheelbarrows to the basement of the Murrah Building's parking garage, still reeking from the explosion.

cry me a ****ing river, I had family in the buildings next to it and helped out too, what is your point other than beating your chest?


does that mean there were OKC victims who weren't innocent, BTW?

please tell me you did not just ask this question from what you read in his post. please tell me you arent that dumb

I dont know if you have had too much to drink tonight, or you are just overly emphatic about responding to others that you feel you have more knowledge about a situation or what, but it damn, way over the top Jed

[Mongo]

...Unlike what some posters do, I go into each thread with an open mind. I don't chase posters that I've previously disagreed with around, challenging them on everything regardless of subject...

...who posts on it, or who likes who, or who thinks they're getting jobbed when they post....


and if you are willing to, go ahead and explain what all this is. It was said for a purpose, to make a point. please, in great detail again, what you meant by it. Are you refering to me?


TIA

[BigRedJed]

Nope. Actually I'm not. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm busy with happyfuntimes.

[Mongo]

thought so

[BigRedJed]

Last word.

[Mongo]

no way

[BigRedJed]

I win.

[Mongo]

not on my watch

[BigRedJed]

You lose.

[Mongo]

I am going to bed, you win

[BigRedJed]

:les: NO I DON'T!!!

[leavingthezoo]

YAY!

[BigRedJed]

:les: AND YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BED EITHER!!

[Mongo]

good night, I am brushing my teeth

[leavingthezoo]

timing man, timing.

[BigRedJed]

Tell your tooth I said hello. Don't forget to floss both sides of it.

:kelvin:

[leavingthezoo]

timing, zoo, timing.

[Mongo]

I retucked my sheets and took off my undies

good night

[Frozen Sooner]

I'll take a bribe to either delete or not delete the last post of whoever gets the last word.

[BigRedJed]

You can turn them inside out and wear them in the morning. Just remember: yellow side to the front, brown to the back. Good night.

[Mongo]

I like to put a pillow between my inner thighs to help relieve the stress on my hips

good night

[BigRedJed]

:les: THOSE AREN'T PILLOWS!!

[Mongo]

I will let you stay the night on the couch if you need to, and you can choose from my pillow stash. you have a 20% chance of getting my inner thigh/scrotum pillow.

choose wisely

[BigRedJed]

Where has the other 80% been?

[Mongo]

just my retreating hairline scraps and maybe a drool stain, rather harmless compared to the other choice

[BigRedJed]

:les: YOU WIN!!

[BigRedJed]

SCROTE PILLOW FTW!!!

[Mongo]

I love you Jed

[BigRedJed]

I love you Mongo.

[Mongo]

good night

[BigRedJed]

Good night.

[BigRedJed]

Mongo?

[Mongo]

yes?

[BigRedJed]

Can I have a drink of water?

[Mongo]

sure, do you want me to leave the door cracked and the hall light on too?

[BigRedJed]

yes.

[Mongo]

good, get some sleep and I will cook you some pancakes and bacon in the morning. But right now I need to go make love to your mother

[BigRedJed]

If you're gonna do that I'd rather you not touch my bacon in the morning.

[Mongo]

I use tongs to handle the bacon, but I did learn a new "no hands" method to flipping pancakes. It took a lot of practice, and a couple of trips to the burn unit, but it is a hoot to see

[BigRedJed]

I can haz oatmeal?

[Mongo]

Do you like your oatmeal lumpy?

[BigRedJed]

Depends on the source of the lumps.

[BigRedJed]

http://onemansblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/HumptyHump.jpg

[Mongo]

you win, my Digital Underground lead in went bad

good night

[BigRedJed]

I don't have kids. I can stay up later.

[Mongo]

oh, now you post the response

[BigRedJed]

I'm slow on the uptake. I'm 40, you know.

[Mongo]

I am at work, getting paid for the session of jackassery

and you win, I cant beat the flood conrol

[BigRedJed]

Mongo?

[Frozen Sooner]

I am at work, getting paid for the session of jackassery

and you win, I cant beat the flood conrol

Need help?

I CAN'T LET JED WIN!

[BigRedJed]

Froze?

[Mongo]

:les: I SAID GOOD NIGHT!!! WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT FROM ME??!?!?

[Frozen Sooner]

Froze?

Tschotchke?

[BigRedJed]

Will you and Froze read me a story?

[Frozen Sooner]

John-boy?

[BigRedJed]

Remora?

[soonerboomer93]

once upon a time, there was a guy name jed

who didn't have flood control

so he wouldn't shut the **** up sometimes :D

[Mongo]

Froze will take my place

Froze, if you ever had to sleep on my couch, I'd make sure you didnt get the inner thigh/scrote pillow

[soonerboomer93]

maybe froze wants the scrote pillow

did you think about that?

[BigRedJed]

once upon a time, there was a guy name jed

who didn't have flood control

so he wouldn't shut the **** up sometimes :D
That story sucks.

Froze, will you read me a story?

[Frozen Sooner]

Once there was a remora. And that remora was a sad boy because he was middle-aged and hadn't done much with his life. So he attached himself to a young shark and made himself feel much better by sucking away at the gills of the young shark. That remora still feels empty inside, but at least he's got young, vital blood in him now.

[Frozen Sooner]

Froze will take my place

Froze, if you ever had to sleep on my couch, I'd make sure you didnt get the inner thigh/scrote pillow

:(

[BigRedJed]

*snuggle*

[Frozen Sooner]

Diddums wikey stowy?

[Mongo]

maybe froze wants the scrote pillow

did you think about that?


sshhhhhh, they all are thigh/scrote pillows, I rotate

[soonerboomer93]

okay, my stomach has become unstable now

thanks guys

[BigRedJed]

Diddums wikey stowy?
Ok, now you're creeping me out.

:les: I NEED AN ADULT!!!

[Frozen Sooner]

Show me on the doll where I can touch you.

[Frozen Sooner]

sshhhhhh, they all are thigh/scrote pillows, I rotate

;GOOOOOAALLLLLLL!

[Frozen Sooner]

I don't want anybody else
When I think about him
I touch my Jed

[BigRedJed]

http://strangedolls.net/images/commissioned/comm-colleenbones3.jpg

[Frozen Sooner]

Oh, that's hot. You have that mask?

[BigRedJed]

Yes, but I don't wear it on my face.

[Frozen Sooner]

Good. 'Cause that's not where I want you to wear it.

[BigRedJed]

:les: SIMPATICO!!!

[Frozen Sooner]

Dude, why are you still up?

[BigRedJed]

I live in Alaska?

[BigRedJed]

Wait. I don't live in Alaska. IT'S ****ING LATE!!!

[Frozen Sooner]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm putting together a meeting for tomorrow then I'm heading to the rack.

[BigRedJed]

Last word.

[Frozen Sooner]

Nope

[sanantoniosooner]

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/0/09/Giant_Pumpkin_Species.jpg

[Harry Beanbag]

Nice gourd.

[Harry Beanbag]

Can I have that for my custom user title?

[Mjcpr]

Thanks, I just had it stuffed.

[MamaMia]

I knew this wouldn't end well, but it has exceeded the mother of all bad endings. :eek: