What are your thoughts on the border, srsly?

[OU4LIFE]

With reports of violence against border agents on the rise, what are your thoughts on securing the border?

Linky USA today story (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-02-26-Borderviolence_N.htm?csp=34)

How many violent attacks does it take to reach an unacceptable level? Does anyone even feel that this is a problem?

[crawfish]

Awesome album.

I love the song "Ol' 55"...

[OKLA21FAN]

'welcome to checkpoint chickie!'
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v67/daisypie/BarneyFife.gif

[Okla-homey]

Ok. I'll bite.

The wall/fence thing: almost pure hyperbole to make people think something is being done to staunch the flow. Here's the thing, and this is based on a lot of military experience. Obstructions alone only delay people. Walls and or fences can work IF they are constantly surveilled, are covered by supporting fires, and have troops positioned to respond immediately to breaches. Mines are usually required too. You know, the old East/West German border or the Korean DMZ model.

This is especially so in this context because firstly, the people bringing dope across have a ton to gain at relatively slight risk. Secondly, some guy or gal who has walked or hitched up to the US border from Guatemala is not going to be too deterred by a big fence. I can't imagine anyone who has done that arriving at the fence and saying to themselves, "Drats! A fence! I guess I'll just walk back to Guatemala." Instead, he'll conclude, "if I just take my time and really think about this, I can figure out a way over, under or around it. Afterall, no one is gonna shoot at me while I try and if I make it, I'm home free."

I think such a fortified border is completely unrealistic to expect given we as a people are not prepared to use deadly force to prevent border incursions. Thus, since the wall alone won't work and we aren't going to round up all the ones who are here nor build concentration camps for 11-13 million people, we need to approach the problem from the demand side, not the supply side.

In my humble opinion, the only practical means of eliminating the problem is enactment of a federal statute making it a felony for anyone to knowingly employ illegals, and that my friends, is simply not feasible in the current Congress.

HB 1804 in Oklahoma has had some minor effect, but its not nearly strong enough. Further, all its really done is cause some to move to adjoining states like Arkie and Kansas. The problem is, anything more would almost certainly invoke the supremacy clause and cause such a law to be ruled void in federal court because it unconsitutionally invades Congresses plenary power on immigration matters under the Constitution (Art. I)

Thus, like McCain, I say, let's get them on the tax rolls. Congress would support that. Call it amnesty or whatever you want, but it's the only realistic choice we have.

[OU4LIFE]

Would the use of deadly force really make a difference? Somehow I doubt it. Most of these people are already risking their lives just by trying to cross.

[sooneron]

Ok. I'll bite.

The wall/fence thing: almost pure hyperbole to make people think something is being done to staunch the flow. Here's the thing, and this is based on a lot of military experience. Obstructions alone only delay people. Walls and or fences can work IF they are constantly surveilled, are covered by supporting fires, and have troops positioned to respond immediately to breaches. Mines are usually required too. You know, the old East/West German border or the Korean DMZ model.

This is especially so in this context because firstly, the people bringing dope across have a ton to gain at relatively slight risk. Seccondly, some guy or gal who has walked or hitched up to the US border from Guatemala is not going to be too deterred by a big fence. I can't imagine anyone who has done that arriving at the fence and saying to thmselves, "drats! a fence. I guess I'll just walk back to Guatemala." Instead, he'll conclude, "if I just think about this, I can figure out a way over, under or around it. Afterall, no one is gonna shoot at me while I try and if I make it, I'm home free."

I think such a fortified border is completely unrealistic to expect given we as a people are not prepared to use deadly force to prevent border incursions. Thus, since the wall alone won't work and we aren't going to round up all the ones who are here nor build concentration camps for 11-13 million people, we need to approach the problem from the demand side, not the supply side.



Interesting, I was coming around to some sort of obstruction, but you just made me practically do an about face.
I agree with getting the illegals that are here into the "system". It's better for everyone in the long run.

[OU4LIFE]

but where/how do you draw the line? At what point will we have to stop the influx?

We've created this mess. Most Americans would rather sit out and draw unemployment benefits rather than work for the wages most illegals will work for.

[Howzit]

I hear a lot of people say they like their picante sauce. Me, not so much.

[sooneron]

If into the system, means using my emergency rooms and school tax rolls for their children, then I disagree.
If that happens, I expect in about 5 yrs a 3rd party - jingoistic and racially charged as all get out.
Paying taxes and into the social security kitty.

[Curly Bill]

Historically speaking nations that cannot or will not defend their borders have not continued to exist long-term. So...yeah, I think this border thing is pretty serious, if not for us then for our grandchildren and their children, kind of like the national debt hanging over us.

[sooneron]

Historically speaking nations that cannot or will not defend their borders have not continued to exist long-term.
I didn't know they were using tanks.

[Curly Bill]

Neither did the German barbarians...ask Rome.

[sooneron]

Look, I realize it's fun to be alarmist and everything and want to keep the little brown people out, but there's a difference between Aryan invaders and people that are willing to towel dry the outside of my car. Yes, there is a chance of of a frequent "mule" carrying some of that booger sugar that W used to love so much, and there is the chance of someone being al quaida (they get into our country pretty much anywhere besides the south border), but we are not being overrun by invaders as much as you would like to shout from the mountaintops.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

While I appreciate Okla-Homey measured and thoughtful response, I am not one to be as measured on this issue. I for one believe we need to enforce the laws, severe fines/jail time to employers using illegals and to ensure illegals are barred from state and federal support of any kind. I also think we need to patrol the southern border to stop the banditos from coming over our border with their violence and drugs, etc. If Canada ever gets like that, then arm the northern border as well.

We also need to stop propping up Mexico and kissing their feet.

My anti-illegal stance is born from my international travel and experience how other countries and cultures handle non-legal people in their countries.

[Curly Bill]

Look, I realize it's fun to be alarmist and everything and want to keep the little brown people out, but there's a difference between Aryan invaders and people that are willing to towel dry the outside of my car. Yes, there is a chance of of a frequent "mule" carrying some of that booger sugar that W used to love so much, and there is the chance of someone being al quaida (they get into our country pretty much anywhere besides the south border), but we are not being overrun by invaders as much as you would like to shout from the mountaintops.

You are aware that at first the Germanic invaders filled much the same role that the "little brown people" fill for us now? Working in agriculture and other areas in which there was not enough Romans to do it, or were willing to do it?

Those that don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

[Sooner_Bob]

I hear a lot of people say they like their picante sauce. Me, not so much.


Picante sauce is gwose.

Herdez or Hatch is where its at dawg.

[sooneron]

You are aware that at first the Germanic invaders filled much the same role that the "little brown people" fill for us now? Working in agriculture and other areas in which there was not enough Romans to do it, or were willing to do it?

Those that don't know history are doomed to repeat it.
Yes, I do. It would be a little difficult today for something of that scale (or anything close for that matter) to happen. Ain't gonna happen.

Fine the carp outta the companies that hire- no state or fed contracts as well and figure out a system that gets these people into the loop. If you do that, they generally will be less resistant to the big dip into the melting pot. Keep them skeered, they resist pretty much anything that has to do with following any sort of our code.
Keep things as is and Jaux's predicition for a more "nationalist" party comes to fruitiion. A wall aint gonna do it.

[sooner_born_1960]

While I appreciate Okla-Homey measured and thoughtful response, I am not one to be as measured on this issue. I for one believe we need to enforce the laws, severe fines/jail time to employers using illegals and to ensure illegals are barred from state and federal support of any kind. I also think we need to patrol the southern border to stop the banditos from coming over our border with their violence and drugs, etc. If Canada ever gets like that, then arm the northern border as well.

We also need to stop propping up Mexico and kissing their feet.

My anti-illegal stance is born from my international travel and experience how other countries and cultures handle non-legal people in their countries.
I'm ok with fines, but I am beginning to think we put too many people in jail as it is.

[Curly Bill]

Yes, I do. It would be a little difficult today for something of that scale (or anything close for that matter) to happen. Ain't gonna happen.

Fine the carp outta the companies that hire- no state or fed contracts as well and figure out a system that gets these people into the loop. If you do that, they generally will be less resistant to the big dip into the melting pot. Keep them skeered, they resist pretty much anything that has to do with following any sort of our code.

I'm all for attacking the problem by going after employers, and ultimately that might be as, or more effective, then militarizing the border. Having said that the bottom line remains: nations have to be willing and able to secure their borders and if they don't bad things will happen.

[OU4LIFE]

Look, I realize it's fun to be alarmist and everything and want to keep the little brown people out, but there's a difference between Aryan invaders and people that are willing to towel dry the outside of my car. Yes, there is a chance of of a frequent "mule" carrying some of that booger sugar that W AND Obama used to love so much, and there is the chance of someone being al quaida (they get into our country pretty much anywhere besides the south border), but we are not being overrun by invaders as much as you would like to shout from the mountaintops.

ok. I see your point and I agree to a point. But here's how it usually works, they come over here, work for pennies UNTIL they are legal, then they become lazy and a drain on the economy just like the Americans they used to work for....

[sooneron]

ok. I see your point and I agree to a point. But here's how it usually works, they come over here, work for pennies UNTIL they are legal, then they become lazy and a drain on the economy just like the Americans they used to work for....
There are ways to fix that problem, first I don't think anyone here would disagree that welfare is not working. Overhaul welfare and put time limits on when people can no longer syphon it. Second, no one that is a naturalized citizen may go on welfare or draw social security with out paying x amount into the system, but that only applies to ss. Another thing is to offer low to no % loans to families that have moved here and WANT to be citizens for their kids to attend secondary education. This can be trade school or college of any sort. Actually, it may be better to have them perform community service in their area to pay back their loans. Plant trees, help build **** whatever. That helps them understand a thing called taking pride in what you do. I'm speaking off the top of my head here and have to get back to work. You guys can disagree with me all you like. whatever.

[BigRedJed]

I think the Boarder is awesome. I hope he's doing OK after the fire.

[OKLA21FAN]

if we close the borders, where will we get our burritos???!!!!


better think twice America :pop:

[SoonerStormchaser]

I agree with most of Homey's principles...but I think that the border agents should be allowed to shoot the bastages if they're throwing rocks or shooting at them. And frankly, I still don't understand why George doesn't have the cajones to go talk to El Presidente down in Mexico City and have him be part of the solution. All Vicente Fox was was part of the problem.

[yermom]

what's the difference between an illegal alien and a spy?

anyway, the Chinese scare me more than the Mexicans

[Frozen Sooner]

Ok. I'll bite.

The wall/fence thing: almost pure hyperbole to make people think something is being done to staunch the flow. Here's the thing, and this is based on a lot of military experience. Obstructions alone only delay people. Walls and or fences can work IF they are constantly surveilled, are covered by supporting fires, and have troops positioned to respond immediately to breaches. Mines are usually required too. You know, the old East/West German border or the Korean DMZ model.

This is especially so in this context because firstly, the people bringing dope across have a ton to gain at relatively slight risk. Secondly, some guy or gal who has walked or hitched up to the US border from Guatemala is not going to be too deterred by a big fence. I can't imagine anyone who has done that arriving at the fence and saying to themselves, "Drats! A fence! I guess I'll just walk back to Guatemala." Instead, he'll conclude, "if I just take my time and really think about this, I can figure out a way over, under or around it. Afterall, no one is gonna shoot at me while I try and if I make it, I'm home free."

I think such a fortified border is completely unrealistic to expect given we as a people are not prepared to use deadly force to prevent border incursions. Thus, since the wall alone won't work and we aren't going to round up all the ones who are here nor build concentration camps for 11-13 million people, we need to approach the problem from the demand side, not the supply side.

In my humble opinion, the only practical means of eliminating the problem is enactment of a federal statute making it a felony for anyone to knowingly employ illegals, and that my friends, is simply not feasible in the current Congress.

HB 1804 in Oklahoma has had some minor effect, but its not nearly strong enough. Further, all its really done is cause some to move to adjoining states like Arkie and Kansas. The problem is, anything more would almost certainly invoke the supremacy clause and cause such a law to be ruled void in federal court because it unconsitutionally invades Congresses plenary power on immigration matters under the Constitution (Art. I)

Thus, like McCain, I say, let's get them on the tax rolls. Congress would support that. Call it amnesty or whatever you want, but it's the only realistic choice we have.

Good stuff here.

1. Set up a system so that those who are here now can become legal residents-get 'em on the tax rolls immediately. However, they permanently give up their right to become US citizens. The process should use facial-recognition software (which is quite good now) to match applicants against known terror suspects.

2. There is one exception to the above: military service. Any legal resident who wishes to enlist in the armed forces will be granted US citizenship immediately after receiving an honorable discharge and taking a citizenship test.

3. Set up military recruiting stations at border towns inside Mexico so that people who wish to immigrate legally can enlist.

4. Fine the bejesus out of people who knowingly employ illegal aliens. This should be considered aiding and abetting in the commission of a crime, honestly.

Hey, if you're willing to dodge bullets for a few years, I'm OK with you becoming a citizen.

[SoonerStormchaser]

Good stuff here.

1. Set up a system so that those who are here now can become legal residents-get 'em on the tax rolls immediately. However, they permanently give up their right to become US citizens. The process should use facial-recognition software (which is quite good now) to match applicants against known terror suspects.

2. There is one exception to the above: military service. Any legal resident who wishes to enlist in the armed forces will be granted US citizenship immediately after receiving an honorable discharge and taking a citizenship test.

3. Set up military recruiting stations at border towns inside Mexico so that people who wish to immigrate legally can enlist.

4. Fine the bejesus out of people who knowingly employ illegal aliens. This should be considered aiding and abetting in the commission of a crime, honestly.

Hey, if you're willing to dodge bullets for a few years, I'm OK with you becoming a citizen.


I agree with that too...hell, give em citizenship if they complete 6 years of HONORABLE service (i.e. no LOA's, LOR's, Article 15's, Article 32's, etc.).

[MamaMia]

Pertaining to this border issue, I'm on the same page as Glenn Beck.

http://archive.glennbeck.com/news/11162007c.shtml

[yermom]

i don't like the idea of them not able to be citizens. if they want to be Americans, be Americans. none of this Mexican flag at the post office BS. if you love Mexico so much, stay there.

if they want to be naturalized citizens, then there should be a process. making that faster through or military service seems fair though.

[Frozen Sooner]

i don't like the idea of them not able to be citizens. if they want to be Americans, be Americans. none of this Mexican flag at the post office BS. if you love Mexico so much, stay there.

if they want to be naturalized citizens, then there should be a process. making that faster through or military service seems fair though.

If they wanted to be naturalized citizens, they should have started by respecting the laws of the country.

[OKC Sooner]

http://img.breitbart.com/images/2008/2/27/080227111811.y9syyq8p/CPS.MNP03.270208121741.photo03.photo.jpg

[shaun4411]

take a page from the terminator book. we should do what they do in the UAE-- put UCAV drones (unmanned combat air vehicles) to monitor the border. make everyone aware that they are programmed to shoot everything that moves, so crossing the border at non approved checkpoints is dangerous.

[yermom]

If they wanted to be naturalized citizens, they should have started by respecting the laws of the country.

i don't even do that, i was just lucky enough to have been born here

i'm of the opinion that it's just too hard to do legitimately, so people have to go around the process. if it was reasonable, maybe there wouldn't be as much of a problem with illegals

[shaun4411]

i don't even do that, i was just lucky enough to have been born here

i'm of the opinion that it's just too hard to do legitimately, so people have to go around the process. if it was reasonable, maybe there wouldn't be as much of a problem with illegals


the only problems with illegals are those that sneak in through the south. immigrants from canada, germany, the UK, the middle east, and all asian countries do it legally and properly. the immigration process per se isnt the problem, its the people who try to circumvent it.

[Frozen Sooner]

That's why my plan includes a method for people to jump the line legally.

I agree that the current process is too unweildy. That doesn't give someone the right to ignore the laws on the books. I don't agree with our current marijuana laws-but that doesn't mean I have the right to smoke out on the corner and expect to not face consequences.

The ones that are here already have an avenue to legal residence in my plan-they just won't have the right to vote or the ability to run for elected office. They won't be deported. They won't be jailed.

[Frozen Sooner]

the only problems with illegals are those that sneak in through the south. immigrants from canada, germany, the UK, the middle east, and all asian countries do it legally and properly.

Wrong.

[Pricetag]

Does it crack anyone else up that the South Korean killer robot has an anti-theft alarm?

[BigRedJed]

Heh. Froze is a stoner.

[shaun4411]

Wrong.


so the border patrol who busts hoards more mexicans than any other nationality somehow make my statment wrong?

how do you know anyways? if immigration from a plethora of other countries was a problem, it'd be known. right now its common knowledge that the immigration "problem" stems from mexico, a problem which is predominantly mexican.

[sooneron]

Wrong.
no ****

[Frozen Sooner]

so the border patrol who busts hoards more mexicans than any other nationality somehow make my statment wrong?

how do you know anyways?

What makes your statement wrong is that it's factually incorrect. I've met any number of illegal immigrants from Asia and illegal aliens from the Saudi Arabia are the ones who piloted planes into the World Trade Center.

So you think that because the border patrol-which is focused on our border with Mexico that "busts hoards(sic) more mexicans(sic) than any other nationality" is some kind of statistical proof that people only cross illegally from Mexico?

[BigRedJed]

Terrorists will probably be much more likely to try to gain entrance from somewhere OTHER than the U.S./Mexico border, because it is actually the most hardened/monitored of our borders.

And the suggestion that all people from other countries (especially asian countries) emigrate from their home countries legally is laughable.

[sooneron]

The Golden Venture was just the tip of the iceberg...

[Frozen Sooner]

Terrorists will probably be much more likely to try to gain entrance from somewhere OTHER than the U.S./Mexico border, because it is actually the most hardened/monitored of our borders.

And the suggestion that all people from other countries (especially asian countries) emigrate from their home countries legally is laughable.

I DON'T HEAR PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT THEM SO THEY DON'T EXIST!!!

LALALALALALALALALALALALALA!

[shaun4411]

no, not all, of course not all. but a substantially higher percentage of non mexican immigrants go the legal route. if it were an issue of immigrants from other countries that were causing a problem, it would be a big issue. it isnt. the issue is illegal mexican immigrants.

[sooneron]

no, not all, of course not all. but a substantially higher percentage of non mexican immigrants go the legal route. if it were an issue of immigrants from other countries that were causing a problem, it would be a big issue. it isnt. the issue is illegal mexican immigrants.
WRONG, the issue is all illegal immigrants.

[Frozen Sooner]

WRONG, the issue is all illegal immigrants.

Illegal Asian immigrants are small, so they don't take up a lot of space in classrooms.

[sooneron]

Illegal Asian immigrants are small, so they don't take up a lot of space in classrooms.

Najera is pretty tall.

[Frozen Sooner]

Najera is pretty tall.

That just proves my point.

[Vaevictis]

no, not all, of course not all. but a substantially higher percentage of non mexican immigrants go the legal route. if it were an issue of immigrants from other countries that were causing a problem, it would be a big issue. it isnt. the issue is illegal mexican immigrants.

I suspect that a big part of the problem is that there's a much larger group of Mexican illegal immigrants who don't have the good sense to be discreet.

I've don't recall ever having seen a mass protest of illegal Chinese or Eastern European immigrants, nor do I see hordes of them standing on a well-known street corner working as day laborers.

[BigRedJed]

They do most of their work behind closed doors. Laundries, sweatshops, off-the-beaten-path factories, etc. Chinese and other people from eastern Asia sometimes work in restaurants, but generally they are Chinese or other asian places, so they blend. Illegal workers from central Asia are often in technical jobs.

Workers from Mexico and other Latin American countries are in your front yard. They work as help at non-Mexican restaurants. They are in jobs that are much more visible.

[Curly Bill]

take a page from the terminator book. we should do what they do in the UAE-- put UCAV drones (unmanned combat air vehicles) to monitor the border. make everyone aware that they are programmed to shoot everything that moves, so crossing the border at non approved checkpoints is dangerous.

Finally you post something I can agree with. :D

[Curly Bill]

Workers from Mexico and other Latin American countries are in your front yard.

Better not be, I will shoot to kill.


...notice there is no winky thing either.

[Jerk]

http://www.airsoftscotland.com/acatalog/star_claymore.jpg
(http://lh3.google.com/susancreedon/RrYECGc43dI/AAAAAAAAAhU/hfF9dCDuG4A/IMG_1241.jpg?imgmax=512)

[BigRedJed]

Better not be, I will shoot to kill.


...notice there is no winky thing either.
Heh.

Headline:


CRAZED SHOOTIST KILLS LAWN SERVICE WORKER
WORKER SHOT WHILE TRIMMING SUPSECT'S NEIGHBOR'S YARD
"He was only making a U-turn when he stepped on the guy's grass," claims co-worker

:D

[BigRedJed]

C'MON! That required a reasonable amount of effort, and was almost funny.

[Curly Bill]

C'MON! That required a reasonable amount of effort, and was almost funny.

I thought so, I SPEKed ya for it. :)

[BigRedJed]

I saw it right after my whiny bitch post. Thanks!

[Curly Bill]

I saw it right after my whiny bitch post. Thanks!

No problem, anything I can do to keep you mods straight. ;)