Bill to allow 21 y/o college kids with CCP's to "bear" on campii

[Okla-homey]

me likey!:D

Especially since its practically impossible for police and/or campus security to respond in time to prevent mayhem when a whackjob starts shooting kids in classrooms.


Bill would let college students bear arms

By MICK HINTON World Capitol Bureau
2/27/2008

OKLAHOMA CITY -- A bill that would allow some college students to carry concealed weapons on campus is headed for the House floor.

House Bill 2513 by Rep. Jason Murphey, R-Guthrie, was approved 14-2 on Monday by the House Judiciary and Public Safety Committee.

The bill would allow students to carry firearms on campus if they are at least 21 and are licensed to carry a concealed weapon.

"As long as students kept their weapons concealed, they could go into class with them," Murphey said.

He said he decided that the bill was needed after the Feb. 14 shootings that left six dead, including the gunman, at Northern Illinois University and an attack in April at Virginia Tech in which a gunman killed 32 people.

Murphey said the bill, which would apply only to public colleges and universities, would allow students to defend themselves, especially if they were being victimized by someone. [I am saddened by the fact the bill does not include the University of Tulsa.:( ]

But the greater value of such a law would be that a potential shooter might be hesitant to come onto a college campus, he said.

"A gunman would not know who might be trained and could defend themselves," Murphey said.

"If you can walk down Main Street with a concealed weapon, you should be able to walk onto a college campus with one," he said. [harrumph!]

Rep. Paul Roan, an Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper for 25 years, voted against the bill, saying such a law could greatly hinder law enforcement.

"You wouldn't know who the players are," he said. [????]

Because weapons now are banned, he said, police can tell if someone comes onto campus "with a gun for evil purposes." [which is an almost completely specious argument IMHO. Look, in everyone of these campus shootings, no one had a clue the shooters had guns on campus. It's not like people are walking thru metal detectors on the way to class or dorm room weapons searches are now occurring, thus making the presence of a firearm equal evil intent.]

Roan, D-Tishomingo, said the amount of training to qualify for a concealed weapon permit is minimal. Those who are granted licenses have to take eight hours of training that includes classes and practice at a firing range.[this argument, along with the one that stated there would be wild gunfights on Main street between CCP holders were both posited before Oklahoma passed CCP legislation in attempt to scare the legislature away from passing it. They did anyway, and neither have been a problem in the years since.]

Roan said the bill would mean that a person who practiced with a simple kind of gun at a range could come onto campus armed with a high-powered weapon. [sounds like Roan opposes CCP altogether. The simple fact is, if you want to kill a bunch of people, go out with a bang and grab a headline, just head to the nearest school or college and shoot up some kids. Right now, schools and colleges represent the largest collection of targets a whackjob can safely attack because none of them are able to shoot back.]

Murphey's original bill, requested by a constituent, would have changed the law so that a person could transport a rifle, shotgun or pistol "open and loaded" in a vehicle at any time.

He said the bill would have been patterned after the "Texas Travel" law, which provides that Texans can have loaded weapons in their vehicles.

Murphey said the committee did not like that version of the bill, so he decided to scratch that language and insert the new proposal regarding guns on college campuses.

Oklahoma State University spokesman Gary Shutt said OSU is tracking the bill.

Noting that students are not allowed to have guns on campus, Shutt said police still are evaluating the proposal.


Mick Hinton (405) 528-2465
[email protected]

[sooneron]

I'm sorry, I don't see this as a good thing.

[Curly Bill]

Possibly discouraging some would-be spree killer, being able to defend themselves if it comes to that...sounds good to me.

[Hot Rod]

Haven't most of these campus killing sprees ended with the shooter killing themselves as well? Just saying these type of people committing these awful acts don't seem to mind getting killed regardless.

[swardboy]

While the thought of college kids in class packing heat initially gives me a queasy feeling, you've gotta consider the statistics.....crime is way down in places where people are allowed to carry. The numbers don't lie.

[soonerhubs]

It's not that these psycho's won't die, it's that they don't die fast enough. Let me pack some heat on campus, and my aim may save the lives of two or three students who are in the shooter's path.

[sooneron]

While the thought of college kids in class packing heat initially gives me a queasy feeling, you've gotta consider the statistics.....crime is way down in places where people are allowed to carry. The numbers don't lie.
I agree, but I must be a little more queasy than you. I can picture oupd bursting in and taking Biff the Beta out as collateral damage due to his brandishing his 9.

I'm sure many people here will take that little analogy as a good thing, since greeks are not widely liked on this board.

[King Crimson]

so, somehow being over 21 and with a license places you de facto outside the wacko demographic?

a lot of freshmen and soph level class don't have anyone over 21 in them. so, i guess they are just sitting ducks?

lotta problems here with this proposed legislation.

[sooneron]

so, somehow being over 21 and with a license places you de facto outside the wacko demographic?

a lot of freshmen and soph level class don't have anyone over 21 in them. so, i guess they are just sitting ducks?

lotta problems here with this proposed legislation.
True, Dale Hall would be the prime spot/target.

Of course they are usually taking classes from GA's, so the GA's can carry.

[sooner_born_1960]

The upper level students are the only ones worth saving, anyway.

[SOONER STEAKER]

I wish no one had to carry guns. It wouldn't be very nice becasue universities shouldn't be a police state, but hiring more undercover police, kinda like air marshalls, should be looked into. Our state universities could hire more security to roam the campus especially those areas where their is a high poplulation of students during the day and during night time classes. It's ashame that a few disturbed people have caused our society to look into security on college campuses.

[Sooner_Bob]

I wish no one had to carry guns. It wouldn't be very nice becasue universities shouldn't be a police state, but hiring more undercover police, kinda like air marshalls, should be looked into. Our state universities could hire more security to roam the campus especially those areas where their is a high poplulation of students during the day and during night time classes. It's ashame that a few disturbed people have caused our society to look into security on college campuses.


That's pretty much how everything goes . . . a few people screw up so you do something that affects everyone.

[proud gonzo]

about damn time.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Good...I tired of trying to conceal this machete

[Curly Bill]

Good...I tired of trying to conceal this machete

A Glock 23 conceals much easier. ;)

[stoops the eternal pimp]

and doesnt cut you up

[Curly Bill]

and doesnt cut you up

well said

[yermom]

I agree, but I must be a little more queasy than you. I can picture oupd bursting in and taking Biff the Beta out as collateral damage due to his brandishing his 9.

I'm sure many people here will take that little analogy as a good thing, since greeks are not widely liked on this board.

this is my biggest problem with this. while the idea that people aren't helpless might help with the idea that it's just open season in the classroom, the other problem is the reality of how it would go down when someone is dumb enough to try it.

how do the police tell which guy with the gun is the cracked one? what happens when Mr. Shooter takes a hostage? what if Mr. Shooter is in the middle of a crowd? is Biff the Beta trained well enough to handle those situations? is he going to end up shooting one of the Omega Mus?

in general i think i like the idea though. i kinda like Dean's idea on concealed weapons

[Okla-homey]

I wish no one had to carry guns. It wouldn't be very nice becasue universities shouldn't be a police state, but hiring more undercover police, kinda like air marshalls, should be looked into. Our state universities could hire more security to roam the campus especially those areas where their is a high poplulation of students during the day and during night time classes. It's ashame that a few disturbed people have caused our society to look into security on college campuses.

Here's the problem. I ask ya, if you were a whackjob bent on classroom mayhem, don't you think you would case the area first and make sure Barney was not in the immediate vicinity before you started slinging lead at kids?

That's the beauty of letting the 21 y/o kiddoes pack heat. Mr. "I've Got Problems and My Mommy Didn't Breast Feed Me Long Enough" will not be able to waltz in feeling invincible just because he sees no cops. That could be deterrent enough. Heck, if he wasn't a coward in the first place he wouldn't be trying to pull this crapola. Instead, he'd be getting all up in the grill of his perceived antagonizers.

If I were Emperor of the North America, I would allow any teacher, perfessor or GA to carry who could pass medical, psych and criminal record screening.

[Okla-homey]

what happens when Mr. Shooter takes a hostage? what if Mr. Shooter is in the middle of a crowd? is Biff the Beta trained well enough to handle those situations? is he going to end up shooting one of the Omega Mus?



I don't know. But I know this, if Mr. Shooter is the only guy with a gun(s) in that classroom, he'll kill many before anyone arrives to take him out or he decides to off himself.

[IB4OU2]

about damn time.

:D Go J. oil up the Glock!

[yermom]

I don't know. But I know this, if Mr. Shooter is the only guy with a gun(s) in that classroom, he'll kill many before anyone arrives to take him out or he decides to off himself.

right.

it kinda bothers me, but i still don't think it's a bad idea

[MamaMia]

This just in. A shooting on the campus of University of Arkansas in Little Rock. One person down. Students have been warned to stay away, via email alert.

[King Crimson]

apparently Utah has a law similar to that one.

personally, as a teacher, i'm not sure i want being the token/deterrent "guy with the gun" as part of my job description. and if so, i wanna get paid out the wazzoo for it and my life heavily insured. who wants to be a teacher when part of it means painting a big target on your chest for wackos. wacko thought process: "after i take out the prof with the gun....."...


security guards/metal detectors are much more likely your response than CCP for students or teachers IMO.

[Curly Bill]

apparently Utah has a law similar to that one.

personally, as a teacher, i'm not sure i want being the token/deterrent "guy with the gun" as part of my job description. and if so, i wanna get paid out the wazzoo for it and my life heavily insured. who wants to be a teacher when part of it means painting a big target on your chest for wackos. wacko thought process: "after i take out the prof with the gun....."...


security guards/metal detectors are much more likely your response than CCP for students or teachers IMO.

As a teacher, I want to be first in line to be able to carry mine to school. None of the students would need to know which teachers carried and which did not, and as for being a target: most of these shooters are blatant cowards, if they think there's the real possibility they will encounter an armed response before they are able to carry out their deed, they will go somewhere else to do it, or not do it at all. There needs to be some doubt in these idiots minds that someone might shoot back, and it won't take the 10 minutes or so for the police to get there for it to happen.

There is a reason these shootings are happening at schools and not at National Guard armories or down at the gun club, these shooters know that at a school it's open season on the sitting ducks.

[Ike]

I really have a problem with the "It might might make a wacked out gunman think twice" logic. Are the people that shoot up schools wacked out or rational people? Somehow, I get the feeling that they wouldn't care if there are random people in the school packin heat. I think it would probably make their murderous rampage more like the video games they spend all their time playing. Yet the "they might think twice" argument is always bandied about around these kinds of laws. Now, for lots of other crimes, sure I can see that argument. There are a lot of rational or nearly-rational criminals out there. I wouldn't by any stretch of the imagination put school shooters, especially the two most recent ones, in that category. Not by a long shot.

Secondly, say our good friend Biff the Beta breaks out his glock when Nelson the Nutjob starts shooting up his classroom. While ol Biff has fired his gun plenty of times and is generally considered to be a good shot, he has a bit of a problem keeping his wits about him, and gets sloppy and in addition to wounding Nutjob Nelson, also wounds or kills some of his classmates who had taken positions of reasonable cover from the original gunman. How does this bill treat Biff? Is he guilty of a crime, or is he a hero? What if he completely misses Nelson, but hits a number of his classmates?

[Okla-homey]

Secondly, say our good friend Biff the Beta breaks out his glock when Nelson the Nutjob starts shooting up his classroom. While ol Biff has fired his gun plenty of times and is generally considered to be a good shot, he has a bit of a problem keeping his wits about him, and gets sloppy and in addition to wounding Nutjob Nelson, also wounds or kills some of his classmates who had taken positions of reasonable cover from the original gunman. How does this bill treat Biff? Is he guilty of a crime, or is he a hero? What if he completely misses Nelson, but hits a number of his classmates?

Under your hypothetical, I doubt Biff would be charged with a crime. The fact he downed the perp in self-defense would probably be dispositive. Even if he missed the whackjob entirely and only hit classmates, he's still shooting in self-defense. The question is, did he act reasonably under the circumstances? Now, in either scenario, whether the prosecutor chooses to prosecute him for negligent homicide of his innocent classmates is probably going to come down to a politcal decision in the DA's office.

That said, civil liability is a whole other dealio. Any of the kids who suffered Biff's friendly-fire shooting could sue on Biff's alleged negligence. That would ultimately be decided, like above, on the basis of whether Biff acted objectively reasonably under the circumstances. The real question is, why sue? Biff is prolly just a college kid with no assets and no liability insurance. Thus, no money in even if they took it to trial and got a big judgment. Can't get blood out of a turnip. Lawyers call those kind of folks "judgment-proof."

[yermom]

i don't think anyone cares who is liable, it's how many extra people could get hurt.

as for Ike's "wacked out" gunman, i think part of this is some fantasy of being powerful over these helpless people that they hate for whatever reason

at VT or Columbine they had planned in advance. they knew it would be a while before anyone with a gun could get to them and took their time methodically. obviously, it's not going to deter everyone from ever doing it again, but maybe it will deter some. seems like it would at least change the scale

[Vaevictis]

at VT or Columbine they had planned in advance. they knew it would be a while before anyone with a gun could get to them and took their time methodically. obviously, it's not going to deter everyone from ever doing it again, but maybe it will deter some. seems like it would at least change the scale

FWIW, if I were interested in doing this sort of thing, the threat of concealed carry might deter me in the sense that it would change my methodology. I probably wouldn't go in with firearms anymore.

I'd just move to explosives and/or poisons in the ventilation.

[yermom]

it's weird though, they don't generally plan on leaving alive, it seems

they want to make a scene and leave their mark as news fodder for the next week or two

[Viking Kitten]

Update: this bill died in a Senate Committee just a bit ago.

[King Crimson]

Update: this bill died in a Senate Committee just a bit ago.

it was ridiculous from the beginning. see my posts above. let's make a law that makes first year people and sophs more wacko gunplay ready than upperclassmen.

[shaun4411]

I'm sorry, I don't see this as a good thing.

agreed. be better if the one professor was the one that was packing.

"you betta do yo homework fo i bust a cap in yo ***"

[C&CDean]

meh.

I never expected it to pass anyhow. Besides, anyone worth their salt and worthy of actually packing isn't going to go through the bull**** of CCP anyhow. In a real-life crisis, CCP people would be going "let's see, can I carry in this building or not?.....do I have to wait for the other dumbass to shoot first or can I drop him when I think he's fixin' to start shooting?.....what did that instructor say?......"

I carry, and if I ever have to drop somebody I'll worry about me not having a CCP at that point. Like daddy always said, "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6."

[Jerk]

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/6901/nogunssr0.jpg

[goingoneight]

Letting people carry guns on campus? Wonderful idea! What with all the drinking and drug use at college these days... it could only be positive, right?

What a shame it didn't pass.

[Jerk]

Letting people carry guns on campus? Wonderful idea! What with all the drinking and drug use at college these days... it could only be positive, right?

What a shame it didn't pass.


Yeah, what a shame that people can't excercize their God given right to defend themselves.

[stoopified]

Everybody should be allowed to caryy guns BUT out in the open in hip or shoulder holsters.Visible weapons will deter more whackos than concealed weapons.One note of clarification:By everyone I meant everyone who qualifies for a carry permit.

[SoonerTerry]

While the thought of college kids in class packing heat initially gives me a queasy feeling, you've gotta consider the statistics.....crime is way down in places where people are allowed to carry. The numbers don't lie.


I beg to differ..

That number 1800 is a lying bastard..