In Texas, 67% of children left behind...

[Ike]

But at least the schools test ratings are going up...

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-02/ru-agr021308.php


A new study by researchers at Rice University and the University of Texas-Austin finds that Texas' public school accountability system, the model for the national No Child Left Behind Act (NCLB), directly contributes to lower graduation rates. Each year Texas public high schools lose at least 135,000 youth prior to graduation -- a disproportionate number of whom are African-American, Latino and English-as-a-second-language (ESL) students.

By analyzing data from more than 271,000 students, the study found that 60 percent of African-American students, 75 percent of Latino students and 80 percent of ESL students did not graduate within five years. The researchers found an overall graduation rate of only 33 percent.

"High-stakes, test-based accountability doesn't lead to school improvement or equitable educational possibilities," said Linda McSpadden McNeil, director of the Center for Education at Rice University. "It leads to avoidable losses of students. Inherently the system creates a dilemma for principals: comply or educate. Unfortunately we found that compliance means losing students."

The study shows as schools came under the accountability system, which uses student test scores to rate schools and reward or discipline principals, massive numbers of students left the school system. The exit of low-achieving students created the appearance of rising test scores and of a narrowing of the achievement gap between white and minority students, thus increasing the schools' ratings.

This study has serious implications for the nation's schools under the NCLB law. It finds that the higher the stakes and the longer such an accountability system governs schools, the more school personnel view students not as children to educate but as potential liabilities or assets for their school's performance indicators, their own careers or their school's funding.

The study shows a strong relationship between the increasing number of dropouts and school's rising accountability ratings, finding that:

Losses of low-achieving students help raise school ratings under the accountability system.

The accountability system allows principals to hold back students who are deemed at risk of reducing the school's scores; many students retained this way end up dropping out.

The test scores grouped by race single out the low-achieving students in these subgroups as potential liabilities to the school ratings, increasing incentives for school administrators to allow those students to quietly exit the system.

The accountability system's zero tolerance rules for attendance and behavior, which put youth into the court system for minor offenses and absences, alienate students and increase the likelihood they will drop out.

The discrepancy between the official dropout rates, in the 2 to 3 percent range, and the actual rates can be attributed to the state's method of counting, which does not include students who drop out of school for reasons such as pregnancy or incarceration or declare intent to take the GED sometime in the future.

The study analyzes student-level data of 271,000 students in one of Texas' large urban districts over a seven-year period. It also includes analysis of the policy and its implementation, extensive observations in high schools in that district and interviews with students, teachers, administrators and students who left school without graduating.

[jk the sooner fan]

i'd question two things

1) the agenda of the people conducting the study

2) the method they used to come up with 67%

seems really high to me

[Ike]

i'd question two things

1) the agenda of the people conducting the study

2) the method they used to come up with 67%

seems really high to me


The study was done in only one urban district. At the end of the piece, they note that their numbers for graduation rate differ from the states by 2 or 3 percent, and they give the reason that their numbers differ.



The discrepancy between the official dropout rates, in the 2 to 3 percent range, and the actual rates can be attributed to the state's method of counting, which does not include students who drop out of school for reasons such as pregnancy or incarceration or declare intent to take the GED sometime in the future.

The study analyzes student-level data of 271,000 students in one of Texas' large urban districts over a seven-year period. It also includes analysis of the policy and its implementation, extensive observations in high schools in that district and interviews with students, teachers, administrators and students who left school without graduating.

[sooner_born_1960]

I'm not sure what all that stuff really means, but I'd wager that the schools in Texas (and everywhere else) offer a quality education for those eager to learn. For those not, well, their loss.

[fadada1]

i taught in the state university system for 2 years (in texas). 67% seems a bit generous if you ask me.

[Ike]

Oh, and if you want to read the whole paper, you can find it here

http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v16n3/

If you scroll to the bottom, you get a PDF
(by the way, I'll use this space to plug my opinion that more people should actually read full research papers rather than just the press release. Especially if you have questions related to the study. Often times the full paper will answer those questions, and if they don't you can also sometimes find contact info for the authors and ask them directly what your questions are)

[sooner_born_1960]

I can't read half that link.

[Ike]

I can't read half that link.
Yeah, thats just the abstract on the page, which apparently they provide in spanish too. At the bottom is a link to a PDF of the full paper

[sooner_born_1960]

Thanks.

[MextheBulldog]

I'm not sure what all that stuff really means, but I'd wager that the schools in Texas (and everywhere else) offer a quality education for those eager to learn. For those not, well, their loss.

This study basically indicates that teachers and administrators are essentially encouraged to remove low test scorers from the pool of test takers.

Instead of providing further education for those most in need of an education, and probably need more time to learn, the system eventually pushes them out because at the end of the day, the schools are measured based on how well students do on the test.

When teachers are measured based on test scores alone, this is what you get: Gaming of the system so that the scores are met, instead of providing a quality education to all.

[sooner_born_1960]

As long as we aren't setting the blame, if blame is called for, on the teachers and administrators. At the end of the day, education, while a noble calling, is still a career and livelyhood. I would expect them to protect their livelyhood.
I would argue that a quality education is offered to all. It is only provided to those willing to accept it.

[Widescreen]

Yeah, thats just the abstract on the page, which apparently they provide in spanish too.
They may not graduate, but at least they can read the abstract regarding why they failed.

[Ike]

As long as we aren't setting the blame, if blame is called for, on the teachers and administrators. At the end of the day, education, while a noble calling, is still a career and livelyhood. I would expect them to protect their livelyhood.
I would argue that a quality education is offered to all. It is only provided to those willing to accept it.

I don't think thats the case here. The study seems to indicate that teachers and administrators are between a rock and a hard place when it comes to balancing educating students and complying with Texas state policies, the end result being that poorly performing students are given more incentives to drop out rather than continue with their education.


In the end, it's less about who is to blame (IMHO) than it is about determining exactly what some of the unintended consequences of Texas state education policies are, especially as many of these policies are at the heart of NCLB, and this is one of those unintended consequences. Some will be fine with that, and others will not. But at the end of the day, you can't have a rational discussion about any policy without knowing what kinds of unintended consequences arise as a result.

[sooner_born_1960]

unintended or unadvertised results of NCLB. We can't really say that those that advocated this policy, didn't realize the eventual results. They just didn't publicize that aspect.

[Frozen Sooner]

sooner_born_1960:

You've made some good points in this thread. I think you might enjoy Jonathan Kozol's Amazing Grace. You probably won't agree with many of Kozol's conclusions, but I think you'd find the book interesting at least.

[mdklatt]

As long as we aren't setting the blame, if blame is called for, on the teachers and administrators. At the end of the day, education, while a noble calling, is still a career and livelyhood. I would expect them to protect their livelyhood.
I would argue that a quality education is offered to all. It is only provided to those willing to accept it.

How about we quit playing the blame game in this country altogether and fix the ****ing problem? Large numbers of high school dropouts is a problem that effects all of us regardless of whose fault it is.

[mdklatt]

unintended or unadvertised results of NCLB. We can't really say that those that advocated this policy, didn't realize the eventual results. They just didn't publicize that aspect.

If anybody had listened to teachers and students in Texas for the past 20 or so years, this couldn't have been a big surprise. Teaching to the test and the problems thereof has been an issue for awhile now.

[Frozen Sooner]

I thought the NCLB-tye stuff only really took off in Texas in the mid-late 90s.

[Scott D]

How about we quit playing the blame game in this country altogether and fix the ****ing problem? Large numbers of high school dropouts is a problem that effects all of us regardless of whose fault it is.

why do you hate high crime and burger flipping/custodial engineering?

[NormanPride]

If anybody had listened to teachers and students in Texas for the past 20 or so years, this couldn't have been a big surprise. Teaching to the test and the problems thereof has been an issue for awhile now.

I was going to say the exact same thing. Teachers and administrators have been screaming that the test system that we've used since time began is the worst incentive possible for students. You wonder why kids are so damn stupid these days, and you only have to look as far as these standardized tests. I've watched teachers spend a larger and larger percentage of the year teaching these tests specifically, to the point that my mom spends almost 50% of her time teaching either the practice test or the test itself.

[Frozen Sooner]

One problem with today's education system is the belief that all children can achieve great things-that nurture has a disproportionally great impact on educational success compared to nature.

Some kids are just dumb. No matter how great their parents are, no matter how much one-on-one time the teacher gives them, they're dumb.

The problem, of course, is that just calling a kid "dumb" allows us to just say "Forget it, we're not teaching him, it's a waste of time."

Beyond "dumb," there's also kids that are of average intelligence. No parent wants to think their kid is of average intelligence, though. They all believe their kid is brilliant. Since people don't think that nature has anything to do with it, they immediately think that if their child isn't doing well in school it's either the school is doing a bad job or they're doing a bad job as a parent. They immediately shift into attack mode at this point.

This doesn't really have anything to do with the thrust of this thread. Just a societal trend I've noticed.

[Scott D]

Clearly nobody made the geniuses who came up with these systems watch Pump Up The Volume

[Frozen Sooner]

Hey, everybody knows that the game is fixed.

[Scott D]

You hear about some kid who did something stupid, something desperate; what possessed him? How could he do such a terrible thing? Well, it's really quite simple, actually. Consider the life of a teenager - you have parents, teachers telling you what to do, you have movies, magazines and TV telling you what to do, but you know what you have to do. Your job, your purpose is to get accepted, get a cute girlfriend, think up something great to do with the rest of your life. What if you're confused and can't imagine a career? What if you're funny looking and can't get a girlfriend? You see, no-one wants to hear it. But the terrible secret is that being young is sometimes less fun than being dead.

[sooner_born_1960]

Mike, does Amazing Grace deal exclusivley with New York City schools?

[Frozen Sooner]

Mike, does Amazing Grace deal exclusivley with New York City schools?

Harlem specifically.

[Scott D]

Why does Amazing Grace sound familiar?

Oh, and the stories I have about being in Harlem.

[Frozen Sooner]

Why does Amazing Grace sound familiar?

You go to Presbyterian and Lutheran churches a lot?


Oh, and the stories I have about being in Harlem.

Huh.

It's an interesting book. I'm not ashamed to say that I had tears standing in my eyes a couple of times reading it.

[12]

I wish it would have been 65%. Would have played nicely into the 2003 football score.

Dang. Sorry for the kids. Even the Texas kids. God bless 'em.

[Tear Down This Wall]

The problem, of course, is that government is overinvolved in the education system - state and federal. Local money, local control is the only way to go. But, state capitals and D.C. are full of "do-gooders" who always think they know more about how to educate kids than the actual people who are raising the kids (parents) and teaching them day in and day out (local school teachers).

[Scott D]

I try to avoid Presbyterian and Lutheran churches if I can.

I was thinking of another book. Was written by a guy who taught in a public school in Harlem back in I think the 60s or early 70s. I'll be damned if I remember the name of it.

Let's just say a Harlem experience for you and for me are two very different things ;)

[Curly Bill]

If anybody had listened to teachers and students in Texas for the past 20 or so years, this couldn't have been a big surprise. Teaching to the test and the problems thereof has been an issue for awhile now.

True, too true...

[Frozen Sooner]

The problem, of course, is that government is overinvolved in the education system - state and federal. Local money, local control is the only way to go. But, state capitals and D.C. are full of "do-gooders" who always think they know more about how to educate kids than the actual people who are raising the kids (parents) and teaching them day in and day out (local school teachers).

You know, I think I agree with you on this statement.

I think the federal and state government can have a role in setting some standards for education so that a high school diploma from state to state and district to district can reasonably be assumed to be roughly equivalent and to ensure that an equal opportunity for an education is maintained, but after that...yeah.

[Scott D]

You know, I think I agree with you on this statement.

I think the federal and state government can have a role in setting some standards for education so that a high school diploma from state to state and district to district can reasonably be assumed to be roughly equivalent, but after that...yeah.

Sad part is, the federal government has proven to be well, pretty incompetent in setting those standards. So it's not a surprise that they've managed to screw the pooch in this matter as well.

[sooner_born_1960]

Or let the states decide what curriculum they'll accept from another state.

[Curly Bill]

One problem with today's education system is the belief that all children can achieve great things-that nurture has a disproportionally great impact on educational success compared to nature.

Some kids are just dumb. No matter how great their parents are, no matter how much one-on-one time the teacher gives them, they're dumb.

The problem, of course, is that just calling a kid "dumb" allows us to just say "Forget it, we're not teaching him, it's a waste of time."

Beyond "dumb," there's also kids that are of average intelligence. No parent wants to think their kid is of average intelligence, though. They all believe their kid is brilliant. Since people don't think that nature has anything to do with it, they immediately think that if their child isn't doing well in school it's either the school is doing a bad job or they're doing a bad job as a parent. They immediately shift into attack mode at this point.

This doesn't really have anything to do with the thrust of this thread. Just a societal trend I've noticed.

Not a politically correct statement by any means but as a member of the education system I will agree with it. To think that all kids can read, do math, or whatever just as well as all other kids is beyond naive, it's stupid. It's like saying all kids can run just as fast as all others, or they can all be just as good at football. Some kids are better athletes then others, and some are smarter then others. To pretend otherwise is idiotic.

[Frozen Sooner]

Sad part is, the federal government has proven to be well, pretty incompetent in setting those standards. So it's not a surprise that they've managed to screw the pooch in this matter as well.

Partly because the education system has become politicized. You get a change in direction at DoE every four to eight years.

DoE should be involved in setting a broad, national curriculum and ensuring that education is accessible to all, then get the heck out.

State DoEs should be involved in making sure that individual districts are conforming to the national curriculum and setting a state curriculum (state history, etc) while ensuring that all districts are keeping education equally available.

Local districts should be involved in making sure that the national and state curricula are being taught and that individual schools all meet access requirements.

And so on down the chain.

[Scott D]

Actually Education is a prime example of how the limbs control the torso in regards to our federal government.

[Frozen Sooner]

Not a politically correct statement by any means but as a member of the education system I will agree with it. To think that all kids can read, do math, or whatever just as well as all other kids is beyond naive, it's stupid. It's like saying all kids can run just as fast as all others, or they can all be just as good at football. Some kids are better athletes then others, and some are smarter then others. To pretend otherwise is idiotic.

Replace "dumb" with "educationally-challenged" and "average" with "Exceeds subnormal" and I think we're in business on the correctness front.

Creches, man. That's what we need. ;)

[NormanPride]

We should all just embrace the future of Harrison Bergeron.

[Curly Bill]

Replace "dumb" with "educationally-challenged" and "average" with "Exceeds subnormal" and I think we're in business on the correctness front.
;)

Nah, I don't like political correctness to start with. I say call a spade a spade. ;)

[NormanPride]

The core issue here is, as the paper said: the incentive system. The idea that the government should control the flow of money to schools that much is scary. The idea that a school's performance controls that flow is even more scary.

This problem mostly stems from equality of education. If we simply leave it to the districts to control education, how will the poorer districts get by? Well, we'll need to band together at the state level to make sure everyone has equal access to resources. But what about poorer states? Well, let's band together at the federal level to make sure that everyone gets equal resources. Where does it stop?It would be easiest if we just gathered up all the money for education and distributed it equally, but that brings its own problems. Then you get families in California paying $3000 for a kid in Louisiana's education.

It's a mess.

[Scott D]

much like every other department in the government.

[mdklatt]

I thought the NCLB-tye stuff only really took off in Texas in the mid-late 90s.

The teach-the-test culture surrounding the various iterations of the Texas basic skills test has been around for longer than that. I spent a portion of 9th and 11th grades "learning" basic grammar and arithmetic because good TAAS scores were a high priority. It pre-dates Bush as governor, but he took it to another level. I don't think standardized testing is a bad thing, but when that takes over the entire curriculum you've got a problem--especially when the tests in question are so basic. So, the smart kids aren't learning because they're reviewing 5th grade math in high school, and the dumb kids are apparently getting shoved out the door. Lose-lose-lose.

[Frozen Sooner]

Laaaame.

Then again, I always do well on standardized tests. Maybe if my high school was all standardized-test based, I'd have gotten a higher GPA.

[Scott D]

I would have been Valadectorian at my high school if it was all standardized test based.

[Ike]

Personally, Im waiting for the news story about some uber-smart kid demanding money from the principal or teachers in order to convince him or her not to tank the standardized test...

[mdklatt]

Maybe if my high school was all standardized-test based, I'd have gotten a higher GPA.

That's another thing--the standardized tests had nothing to do with your grades so here was no incentive to do well on them. I knew a lot of people that took five minutes to randomly fill in the bubbles and then took a nap. The TAAS wasn't timed, either. They set aside three hours in the morning on test day, but if you weren't done by then you could spend the rest of the day in the library if you wanted.

In the early 90s they made passing the 11th-grade TAAS a graduation requirement, and a whole lot of people failed at first (you could take again with the juniors next year). There was a big kerfuffle over the essay portion of the test in my school, because a significant number of people in Honors English failed it.

[mdklatt]

Personally, Im waiting for the news story about some uber-smart kid demanding money from the principal or teachers in order to convince him or her not to tank the standardized test...

I think all the smart kids would have to band together to have a significant impact on a school's scores. They could form a union....

[Ike]

I think all the smart kids would have to band together to have a significant impact on a school's scores. They could form a union....
depends on the school...In some districts, there could certainly be only a small few of the uber smart kids propping up an entire schools test scores.

[sooner n houston]

Lets not forget this all started because high schools were graduating kids who could not read! Warehousing ring any bells?
Is there a solution? I don't see one. I think a lot of good people have tried to come up with something that would work, but have failed so far.

[yermom]

yeah, maybe they should focus on teaching kids, or giving them a reason to be in school

i'd rather someone drop out and get a job than graduate and have gotten nothing out of school but have a diploma that means nothing

[Vaevictis]

I spent a portion of 9th and 11th grades "learning" basic grammar and arithmetic because good TAAS scores were a high priority. It pre-dates Bush as governor, but he took it to another level.

You ain't kidding. I was in 8th grade in... 1993ish. Our English class spent an entire semester preparing for the TAAS test. I imagine it's only gotten worse.

The worst part was that the TAAS test was easy. I could have passed it by the time I was in fifth grade.

I even remember the essay question: Describe something you would make to give to a friend. I wrote about how to make a pipe bomb. They didn't think that was very funny, but I passed.

[NormanPride]

Nowadays, that would get you expelled.

[yermom]

:eek:

no joke

[usmc-sooner]

my theory is that 67% of Texans are just dumbasses the remaining 33% are from Oklahoma and other states.

[Vaevictis]

Nowadays, that would get you expelled.

I had some... interesting experiences in school.

In one of my classes, there was a bully who liked to go around smacking other kids on the back of the head. The teacher -- a Vietnam vet reputed to have PTSD (but you know how kids are...) -- saw him doing it one day, and called him over to his desk.

"You know, I saw you smacking other kids on the back of the head. You know, when I was in Vietnam, the locals had some pretty harsh laws about stealing and stuff like that. Did you know that in some cultures, they cut people's hands off for stealing and other crimes committed with the hand..."

At this point, the guy pulls a big Bowie knife out of his desk drawer.

I have absolutely no idea how this guy didn't get fired. But the kid never, ever smacked anyone else again.

[usmc-sooner]

i'd rather someone drop out and get a job than graduate and have gotten nothing out of school but have a diploma that means nothing

then OSU wouldn't have any fans show up at their games :D