United States of Spoiled Brats...

[Collier11]

I dont think you have to be a Bush supporter to see this guys point that our generation takes everything for granted and is very ungrateful for much...what do you guys think?



http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53028

[Scott D]

I think if your generation got *** wuppins like they deserved there wouldn't be a problem.

[Collier11]

I think if your generation got *** wuppins like they deserved there wouldn't be a problem.


I got azz whoopins and thats why I try to be a very grateful, honest, considerate person

Sometimes I its a struggle on here though ;)

[yermom]

that guy pumps more Bush sunshine than Tuba

[Frozen Sooner]

I think the guy makes some really idiotic points.

He uses things that have been a static in our nation for at least 50 years-a good interstate highway system, clean motels, ubiquitous electricity, freedom of movement-through Democratic and Republican presidencies and somehow extrapolates that to mean we should all be happy with the direction the country is going?

Hitler had the trains running on time.

Saddam Hussein had the electricity working.

Those are pretty minimal standards to say "Hey, we should be happy with the leadership of our country and the direction they're taking us!"

Certainly, we do have it good. We're citizens of the greatest nation Earth has ever seen and live in luxury relative to most of the globe.

Doesn't mean that our leadership is perfect or even good.

Edit: It's also worth noting that were it not for the policies of FDR, we wouldn't have ubiquitous electricity.

[Scott D]

our leadership didn't get enough asswuppins either.

[Collier11]

I was referencing his points of us being a ungrateful country more than supporting BUsh

[Scott D]

you're just an ungrateful bastard for pointing out that he's an ungrateful blogging bastard.

[Frozen Sooner]

I was referencing his points of us being a ungrateful country more than supporting BUsh and I voted for Bush

See, I think he's confusing being unhappy with the direction the country is going with being ungrateful for the things we have.

The military argument is weird. So, simply because the penalties for disobeying orders aren't that harsh we shouldn't be unhappy about the uses to which are military is put?

His media points are kind of dumb as well. Of course you report on disasters and not kids selling lemonade. Kids sell lemonade all the time. It's not unusual, and it doesn't really impact that many people's lives. Disasters aren't usual, and they DO have a rather large impact on people's lives.

[yermom]

I was referencing his points of us being a ungrateful country more than supporting BUsh

in lots of ways you are right. we are spoiled. but that's not all the article is saying, and badly.

sure an ambulance is legally bound to help you even if you are poor, but just because you are one of the "95.4%" of people with a job doesn't mean you have insurance, or even the ability to pay the exorbitant medical costs that ensue, unless you are an illegal, then you are fine ;)

and cops with guns and bulletproof vests? protecting your big screen TV?

please.

[usmc-sooner]

I kinda of agree with a lot of it, I've actually thought that over the years. I think we as a society like to be negative. We complain about Clinton, Bush so much that each are made to be evil bastards. Bush could have done some things better and he could've done worse. I think he's trying hard during hard times. I'm a Marine Veteran and my life has gotten better under his watch, but I think I would be successful whether he was in office or not. I think this is what makes this country great we can have political opinions voice them and we don't have to agree with our leaders.

[Collier11]

I kinda of agree with a lot of it, I've actually thought that over the years. I think we as a society like to be negative. We complain about Clinton, Bush so much that each are made to be evil bastards. Bush could have done some things better and he could've done worse. I think he's trying hard during hard times. I'm a Marine Veteran and my life has gotten better under his watch, but I think I would be successful whether he was in office or not. I think this is what makes this country great we can have political opinions voice them and we don't have to agree with our leaders.


WORD!!

[Vaevictis]

His logic simply doesn't follow. If you have a CEO who's in charge of a billion dollar company and the CEO presides over the evaporation of $200 million of shareholder value over a year, his logic would result in him saying, "Oh, quit being spoiled brats. You've still got $800 million of shareholder value."

That's nonsense. A 20% loss is a 20% loss. There may be mitigating factors, but you can bet your *** you're going to be unhappy with the direction of the stock price, and unless the market also had a 20% loss, you can be pretty damned sure you're going to be unhappy with the performance of the CEO.

(Note that I don't disagree with his statement that Americans are spoiled -- but his argument is total bunk.)

[usmc-sooner]

I read it in a different way, I guess. To me it's like this Bill Maher has made a whole career just bitching about Bush. I think man this guy down deep has to love Bush because it keeps him in business.

I didn't see it so much as endorsement of Bush but the fact that we have it so easy in this country, yet we go out of our way to find things to complain and whine about.

That's just my opinion.

[85Sooner]

By "your" generation I am not sure which generation you speak of.

WE have the Boomers who were born from 45-64 (started voting in the early sixties) The love generation, Sex drugs and rock n roll. Anything against the establishment. Experienced the horrors of Korea and Vietnam. Raised by parents who were the last generation to realize self sacrifice in this country.


They never wanted their kids to have to experience anything like WW1 and WWII again. Started voting alot out of guilt and the sense to right real or perceived wrongs from the past and led to "the Great Society" the real first non-economically necessary redistribution of wealth and social promotion and the entry into the first trickles of socialism this country had ever seen.

This group of which I am one (64) has chosen "leaders" that have weakened this nation continually to the point where we are today. On the other hand they also created the greatest economic accomplishments in a peacetime era of any generation.

This is the generation that now votes to have their property taxes frozen while others foot the bill. I call it the selfish workers generation because they worked, and strived to succeed and were (up until that time) the greatest economic force the world had ever seen since the roman empire. There was plenty for everyone that wanted to earn it. Unfortunately little was paid to the future consequenses of present (60's an 70's). Well meaning social programs designed to help the downtrodden became the welfare state that many live in today. Open immigration and government support led to a majority of immigrants that would be taken care of as opposed to the immigrants of the early 20th century who moved here with little to nothing and had to do what they could to survive and prosper. Most of to todays immigrants have nothing vested other than they can come here, earn and not have to pay attention to laws. They have sacrificed nothing, so like the teenager who gets a corvette for his/her 16th birthday without having to work for it, they have no appreciation and no vested interest in taking care of it. So has become each generation after.

WE have spent billions on social programs yet we have the same problems

We have spent billions on education and still it continues to perform relatively poorly

We have ignored immigration for so long it has gotten out of hand.

We expected insurance would cover our medical costs until it simply no longer can.

It takes fewer and fewer individuals to cover for the social security payments that seemed like a good idea at the time.

We have gotten ourselves into debt trying to keep up with the jones.

Gov assisted housing has allowed many who are not worthy (read have not sacrificed/worked etc.....) to move into neighborhoods and lower property values to the point where one has to move out further to be somewhat safe.

WE are better off and far worse off. WE (the members of the boomers until now) have not sacrificed, at least not for the good of our country (ALL MEN AND WOMEN WHO HAVE SERVED IN THE ARMED FORCES ARE TOTALLY EXEMPT) but you get the point.

Without sacrifice comes apathy. I don't think that we are unhappy. We are apathetic. We don't know which thing we want to bitch about today even if we have nothing to bitch about.

WE feel as if we don't matter even though we work 12 hour days, pay over half our earnings in taxes, have to spend a day with the insurance company on the phone deciphering the bill from the dr's appt we missed work to go to.
Kids have to have piano, karate, soccer, modeling, etc..... while making sure they are not picked up by pedophiles or getting lead poisoning from toys made overseas. we are recreationed to death by boredom waiting for the alarm to ring tomorrow so we can start over. Many others simply don't care and can't be bothered by such trivial things lest their comfortable world be sent into disease because of their selected ignorance.

The one thing that is sure. While we are currently financially better off than our fore fathers we are certainly not together as a "people".

Until that "something" major happens that brings us together as a people, we will continue this path. When I say something major, I mean something bigger than we ever thought could ever happen and genuinely poses a threat recognized by us all. The question is will we really have the wear with all to come together. I would like to think so, but I see no evidence to back that up.

Some would call this paranoia, Some would call this pessemism, I wish that I could see evidence to prove that that was simply the case.
Enough of my soapbox. Thanks for reading

[soonerscuba]

I think that he is way off in is view that the world loves the US and hates Americans, while not scientific, I have found this to be the exact opposite.

Also, I hate the "no terrorist attacks mean Bush is keeping us safe" logic. My shoes repel tigers, I know this because I have never been attacked by one while wearing them.

[usmc-sooner]

I think that he is way off in is view that the world loves the US and hates Americans, while not scientific, I have found this to be the exact opposite.

Also, I hate the "no terrorist attacks mean Bush is keeping us safe" logic. My shoes repel tigers, I know this because I have never been attacked by one while wearing them.

but have your shoes foiled attacks by Tigers? At least the Bush Administration has stopped several attempts, so I'd have to give him that.

[SoonerStormchaser]

Damn right I'm an ungreatful bitch! So ungreatful, that I decided to put on the uniform to show how ungreatful I am! ;)

[usmc-sooner]

Damn right I'm an ungreatful bitch! So ungreatful, that I decided to put on the uniform to show how ungreatful I am! ;)

you're wife let you put on a uniform :D

[SoonerStormchaser]

No...I put it on before I married her.

[Frozen Sooner]

but have your shoes foiled attacks by Tigers? At least the Bush Administration has stopped several attempts, so I'd have to give him that.

Prove that they haven't.

[usmc-sooner]

Prove that they haven't.

no tigers running loose in the America

[Frozen Sooner]

See? His shoes are fighting the tigers over there!

I suppose you'd rather his shoes fight the tigers in our malls and schools.

[usmc-sooner]

Mike I think you'll give me this, there is evidence that during the Bush Administration we have thwarted terrorist attacks. That's really all I'm saying.
When he wanted to sign the amnesty thing for illegals I about just jumped off his wagon. Although to be honest I only voted for him because I didn't like Al Gore, and in 04 I thought he was doing OK and didn't like Kerry.
I'm at the point where I believe blaming him for every little thing is IMO an excuse and not realistic. I'd be doing OK with or without him.

[Mixer!]

I ain't no baby boomer, but I'm 100% BOOMER SOONER!

[Collier11]

Mike I think you'll give me this, there is evidence that during the Bush Administration we have thwarted terrorist attacks. That's really all I'm saying.

NOt Mike but I can say that this is 100% accurate and in a lot bigger way than most will ever realize!



I'm at the point where I believe blaming him for every little thing is IMO an excuse and not realistic. I'd be doing OK with or without him.

It seems like there is this group of people that will blame every one of there problems on GW because it is convenient for them when they could easily take some more personal responsibility instead...that is from government officials all the way down...Sure, he has made alot of mistakes but all presidents do, He has Preisded over some of the toughest times in US history and kept us safe, so I do find myself giving him the benefit of doubt more than some.

[King Crimson]

how did we feel about blaming Bill Clinton for everything before we are blaming Bush for everything?

that's the question i'd pose.

a lot of the well-informed posters on this board who seem to think personal responsibility is the key for political philosophy get stone-hard woodies when the chance to bust up old Billy Clinton comes around?

yet, want to beg off when it comes to blaming Bush for a myriad of social ills.

to me, it's the same.

nothing will make the GOP folks reared on Newt, 1994, and Limbaugh happier than playing shoot when they move should Hillary or Obama beat McCain. Limbaugh invented blaming others: the great scapegoats: liberals, feminazis, etc.

I'm not a democrat, as i've posted many times.

[usmc-sooner]

how did we feel about blaming Bill Clinton for everything before we are blaming Bush for everything?

that's the question i'd pose.

a lot of the well-informed posters on this board who seem to think personal responsibility is the key for political philosophy get get stone-hard woodies when the chance to bust up old Billy Clinton?

yet, want to beg off when it comes to blaming Bush for a myriad of social ills.

I honestly don't think any one man is to blame. Although I wasn't a Clinton fan, he was my CiC, and I will always give him his proper and deserved respect, I don't for one minute doubt that he loved his country and did what he thought was best for our country. I think it's silly all this hate we have for our President's. I thought it was stupid when the Pub's did it to Clinton and I think it's stupid now.

[Vaevictis]

It seems like there is this group of people that will blame every one of there problems on GW because it is convenient for them when they could easily take some more personal responsibility instead...that is from government officials all the way down...Sure, he has made alot of mistakes but all presidents do, He has Preisded over some of the toughest times in US history and kept us safe, so I do find myself giving him the benefit of doubt more than some.

Uh, hyperbole much?

Look, I disagree with a lot of the Bush administration's policies. If you've read my posts, you know it. But as much as I may not like it, I can overlook simple policy disagreements if I think that the disagreement is in good faith. What I cannot live with is the incompetence that this administration has exhibited time and time again.

The President is not just the Commander in Chief. He has other jobs that are just as important, not the least of which are diplomacy and when appropriate, getting the citizenry lined up behind the government. This administration has proven completely unwilling to do a good job at diplomacy, and their election and legislative strategies deliberately and acrimoniously divided the electorate at a time our country could ill afford to be divided.

These are not the result of one mistake; they are the result of deliberate action or inaction on a regular basis. And that's what really bugs me.

[Rogue]

Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday. This Thanksgiving will be especially sweet because it will be after the 2008 elections. Just sayin'.

[sooner_born_1960]

Where has he failed at diplomacy?

[Vaevictis]

Where has he failed at diplomacy?

Really? Are you serious?

[sooner_born_1960]

Can it be explained with using the word "Iraq"?

[sooner_born_1960]

I haven't heard the candidates wailing over the Bush diplomatic blunders. I just wanted to hear what exactly you thought they were.

[usmc-sooner]

Uh, hyperbole much?

Look, I disagree with a lot of the Bush administration's policies. If you've read my posts, you know it. But as much as I may not like it, I can overlook simple policy disagreements if I think that the disagreement is in good faith. What I cannot live with is the incompetence that this administration has exhibited time and time again.

The President is not just the Commander in Chief. He has other jobs that are just as important, not the least of which are diplomacy and when appropriate, getting the citizenry lined up behind the government. This administration has proven completely unwilling to do a good job at diplomacy, and their election and legislative strategies deliberately and acrimoniously divided the electorate at a time our country could ill afford to be divided.

These are not the result of one mistake; they are the result of deliberate action or inaction on a regular basis. And that's what really bugs me.
you don't know that

that is just silly, and that's what I'm talking about there's a lot of armchair QB's whether it be Clinton or Bush. This world has never been a place where diplomacy has worked well, it's a world of violence, no peace, always has been always will be.

[sooner_born_1960]

I haven't heard the candidates wailing over the Bush diplomatic blunders. I just wanted to hear what exactly you thought they were.
Exactly is too strong. Generally would be fine.

[Vaevictis]

Can it be explained with using the word "Iraq"?

Okay, let's start with:

* He parlayed the incredible amounts of sympathy and political capital from 9/11, after which we enjoyed greater standing in the world than we had since the end of the Cold War, into a general contempt from our "allies" worse than before or since the Cold War.
* His incredible blunder with the "Iraq WMD" has left us with little or credibility in the eyes of our allies.
* The vaunted "Coalition of the Willing" yielded four countries willing to contribute troops, which have been drawing down over time while we've been "surging."
* OBL is still on the loose, and to the best of our knowledge is within the borders of our supposed ally, Pakistan.
* Beating the drums for war with Iran, then having an NIE released basically saying that the administration is full of ****.
* Abu Ghraib
* Allowing the rest of the world to think that we torture people as policy. (whether we do or don't)

About the only way I can begin to describe this is as "EPIC FAIL." And these are just the things that immediately come to mind.

[Vaevictis]

you don't know that

that is just silly, and that's what I'm talking about there's a lot of armchair QB's whether it be Clinton or Bush. This world has never been a place where diplomacy has worked well, it's a world of violence, no peace, always has been always will be.

Dude, they shoveled Bolton on the UN. If you're serious about diplomacy, you don't send a diplomat that other diplomats don't want to work with. That tells me everything I need to know.

[usmc-sooner]

Okay, let's start with:

* He parlayed the incredible amounts of sympathy and political capital from 9/11, after which we enjoyed greater standing in the world than we had since the end of the Cold War, into a general contempt from our "allies" worse than before or since the Cold War.
* His incredible blunder with the "Iraq WMD" has left us with little or credibility in the eyes of our allies.
* The vaunted "Coalition of the Willing" yielded four countries willing to contribute troops, which have been drawing down over time while we've been "surging."
* OBL is still on the loose, and to the best of our knowledge is within the borders of our supposed ally, Pakistan.
* Beating the drums for war with Iran, then having an NIE released basically saying that the administration is full of ****.
* Abu Ghraib
* Allowing the rest of the world to think that we torture people as policy. (whether we do or don't)

About the only way I can begin to describe this is as "EPIC FAIL." And these are just the things that immediately come to mind.


damn I hope most people don't think like this, like I said armchair QB's never seen one doc of intell, read a lot of **** on the web and now they know what's best, I guess there is a reason people don't elect them President.

[Mixer!]

..and this thread takes a turn onto lockdown boulevard. I put the O/U at 30 more posts before it happens. I'll take the over.

[usmc-sooner]

Dude, they shoveled Bolton on the UN. If you're serious about diplomacy, you don't send a diplomat that other diplomats don't want to work with. That tells me everything I need to know.


Well I did like David Lee Roth with Steve Vai

[King Crimson]

Well I did like David Lee Roth with Steve Vai

yankee rose was a good tune. if you want that Vai shizz.

too much intro....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=F2mQpYG2POM

this is better than anything "they" did with Hagar.

[Frozen Sooner]

Man, I forgot all about that song. Thanks.

Right down to the Frampton-esque squawk box.

[CatfishSooner]

I think for the most part all Americans are spoiled. I am especially tired of the left wingers who just bitch about the US. If it were not for the US then there would be little or no Republican forms of government in the world...it would be ruled by aurthoritative and totalitarian (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc.) that would grant their subjects little or no liberty. We are definitely at or coming close to a fork in the road, but I think when it really comes down to it the American people will be able to come together and persevere if faced with a big enough challange, just as we always have. The greatest asset of the American people are their innovative spirit and pragmatic nature...I also think this Winston Churchill quote is still somewhat true today: “You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.”

[Vaevictis]

damn I hope most people don't think like this, like I said armchair QB's never seen one doc of intell, read a lot of **** on the web and now they know what's best, I guess there is a reason people don't elect them President.

Maybe every single thing the administration did was 100% necessary. I'm not judging that.

At issue is the public impact of these actions. You don't have to read intel docs to see the results of these actions.

And yeah, I know this **** is hard. But this is the President of the United States we're talking about here. If he took it seriously, he could get someone who could manage the message better.

Case in point: Torture. I'll grant that there are hairy situations where it's going to happen. This sort of **** is why we keep some rather unsavory characters on our payroll -- and have for decades. But we've only had this PR issue with torture since Bush has been in office. Why?

[Frozen Sooner]

I am especially tired of the left wingers who just bitch about the US.

Interesting. Because I find it much more common to find right wingers who just bitch about left wingers than I do left wingers who just "bitch about the US."

[usmc-sooner]

Case in point: Torture. I'll grant that there are hairy situations where it's going to happen. This sort of **** is why we keep some rather unsavory characters on our payroll -- and have for decades. But we've only had this PR issue with torture since Bush has been in office. Why?


Wrong

[Vaevictis]

Wrong

Elaborate?

[usmc-sooner]

Elaborate?

we are about the only country that has rules about torture, and actually comply

[CatfishSooner]

Interesting. Because I find it much more common to find right wingers who just bitch about left wingers than I do left wingers who just "bitch about the US."


OK what I should have said is people in general, but in my experience it has mostly been far left wingers (not anyone specifically from this site) who just look at the bad things the US has done when in reality the US is directly responsible for the liberal (note, little L) ascent of a great portion of the world which is one of the most important developments in world history (at least in the last 500 years...along w/ globalization)!!

[proud gonzo]

nm.

[Vaevictis]

we are about the only country that has rules about torture, and actually comply

Dude, we publicly admitted to waterboarding three people post 9/11. Do you really think that in 60 years:

1. Waterboarding is all we've ever done.
2. It's only been three people.

I find that pretty unbelievable.

[usmc-sooner]

Poison, Faster *****cat, or Whitelion?

[usmc-sooner]

Dude, we publicly admitted to waterboarding three people post 9/11. Do you really think that in 60 years:

1. Waterboarding is all we've ever done.
2. It's only been three people.

I find that pretty unbelievable.

How many people have they beheaded?

[1stTimeCaller]

But we've only had this PR issue with torture since Bush has been in office. Why?

is this where we bring in the 24 hour news media and ease in which soldiers can publish pictures they shouldn't?

[CatfishSooner]

nm.


nice contribution...

[Frozen Sooner]

OK what I should have said is people in general, but in my experience it has mostly been far left wingers (not anyone specifically from this site) who just look at the bad things the US has done when in reality the US is directly responsible for the liberal (note, little L) ascent of a great portion of the world which is one of the most important developments in world history (at least in the last 500 years...along w/ globalization)!!

Let's refine what you're fumbling around here.

Is it unpatriotic to express discontent with the actions of your nation?

Is it possible to express dissatisfaction with the actions of your nation while still loving it and recognizing that it's better than the alternatives?

The vast majority of "left wingers" I know love this nation and the Constitution. When they express their dislike of or disagreement with things the US has done, it's generally in the context of expecting more, not thinking that we're evil. We're the shining beacon on the hill, man. We should do it better and more ethically than everyone else. The vast majority of the time, I think we do. However, when we don't, I don't think it's horrible to say something about it

[Collier11]

Dude, we publicly admitted to waterboarding three people post 9/11. Do you really think that in 60 years:

1. Waterboarding is all we've ever done.
2. It's only been three people.

I find that pretty unbelievable.

and one of the guys who they have admitted to waterboarding was the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks, do you not want as much info out of the piece of sh*t as possible? Especially when there is alot of disagreement as whether waterboarding is even torture, im not saying it is or isnt, just that many disagree.

About Bin Laden and WMD's, I dont see any way you can blame Bush for not finding BIn Laden yet..if the guy is even alive still, there are alot of reports that the guy died last april but who the hell knows.

As far as WMD's, Bush's big failing with this is the fact that he trusted bad advice and when it was apparently reported that it might be bad advice he refused to listen to anyone else.

FWIW, if you read the 911 report there are quotes in the report stating that there is without a doubt a link between Bin Laden and Sadamm, now many in the report also refute this but who is to say what is true or not if they are all supposed to be experts?

[proud gonzo]

nice contribution...thanks, Russell.

[Vaevictis]

is this where we bring in the 24 hour news media and ease in which soldiers can publish pictures they shouldn't?

That's contributory, but having a staff attorney write a memo about how torture is probably legal and the Geneva Conventions are obsolete, and promoting that individual to Attorney General sort of gives the story legs, eh?

Previous (and smarter) presidents would have:
1. Denied that we torture.
2. Denied that we waterboard.
3. ****-canned anyone in the administration who even hinted otherwise.
4. ... all the while having deniables do it when nobody was looking.
5. ... and hanging out to dry any deniable caught doing it.

[CatfishSooner]

Let's refine what you're fumbling around here.

Is it unpatriotic to express discontent with the actions of your nation?

no...

Is it possible to express dissatisfaction with the actions of your nation while still loving it and recognizing that it's better than the alternatives?

Yeah, but it seems like its ONLY the negatives that are ever talked about...

The vast majority of "left wingers" I know love this nation and the Constitution. When they express their dislike of or disagreement with things the US has done, it's generally in the context of expecting more, not thinking that we're evil. We're the shining beacon on the hill, man. We should do it better and more ethically than everyone else. The vast majority of the time, I think we do. However, when we don't, I don't think it's horrible to say something about it

I mostly agree w/ you here and respect your opinion...

[sooner_born_1960]

Whether we tortured these people or not, I guess I don't see it as a diplomatic blunder.

Abu Ghreb (sp? Your correct spelling is on the other page) - A soldier took a picture he shouldn't have, and yes they acted like fraternity brothers. Hardly a diplomatic faux pas.

I'm not sure what kind of diplomacy will bring bin Laden from hiding, be it Pakistan or any other country.

[Collier11]

Let's refine what you're fumbling around here.

Is it unpatriotic to express discontent with the actions of your nation?

Is it possible to express dissatisfaction with the actions of your nation while still loving it and recognizing that it's better than the alternatives?

The vast majority of "left wingers" I know love this nation and the Constitution. When they express their dislike of or disagreement with things the US has done, it's generally in the context of expecting more, not thinking that we're evil. We're the shining beacon on the hill, man. We should do it better and more ethically than everyone else. The vast majority of the time, I think we do. However, when we don't, I don't think it's horrible to say something about it


the reason that this is a problem with conservatives is because the majority of mainstream media is left wing and only reports the screw-ups of Bush and BS like Iraq being in a Civil War when they arent...they also ate up the screw ups in Iraq but now that things are much better you hear nothing, when their hate for GW overrides good journalism then they cause many to lose faith in the media and the "left wing" for not condemning this irresponsible journalism the same way they condemn every single thing that GW does

[sooner_born_1960]

Extremely poor form.

Mod, you can go ahead and delete this one too, as it makes no sense now.

[1stTimeCaller]

whoa nellie!

[Frozen Sooner]

I'm not really sure what beating up the old left-wing media straw man has to do with what you quoted, but OK.

If Iraq isn't in a state of civil war, what would you describe the situation over there as?

Why should the left wing condemn the "left wing" media when the right wing refuses to do the same for the "right wing" media?

[Collier11]

Lets not screw up a good discussion for once

[Mongo]

Lets not screw up a good discussion for once


are you new here:D

[Vaevictis]

and one of the guys who they have admitted to waterboarding was the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks, do you not want as much info out of the piece of sh*t as possible? Especially when there is alot of disagreement as whether waterboarding is even torture, im not saying it is or isnt, just that many disagree.

As I said: When the **** hits the fan, sometimes these things will happen. We keep unsavory people on the payroll for a reason. But you do it using deniable assets, and then you deny, deny, deny. You NEVER EVER EVER admit it.


About Bin Laden and WMD's, I dont see any way you can blame Bush for not finding BIn Laden yet..if the guy is even alive still, there are alot of reports that the guy died last april but who the hell knows.

I don't blame Bush for the failure to capture Bin Laden. At issue is our inability to get the Pakistani government to commit the appropriate resources to finding him or allow us to do so.

About the only redeeming scenario would be if we're just saying Bin Laden is is in Pakistan, but if that's the case, the benefits had better be amazing, as we're destabilizing a freaking nuclear power in the process.


As far as WMD's, Bush's big failing with this is the fact that he trusted bad advice and when it was apparently reported that it might be bad advice he refused to listen to anyone else.

You know who's job it is to ensure that the people feeding him advice are in fact feeding him good advice, right?


FWIW, if you read the 911 report there are quotes in the report stating that there is without a doubt a link between Bin Laden and Sadamm, now many in the report also refute this but who is to say what is true or not if they are all supposed to be experts?

Irrelevant to my point. Bin Laden and Saddam could have been butt-buddies plotting the overthrow of the US on a daily basis. But the perception is that we trumped up "evidence" to go to war, and that is a serious, serious problem.

[Collier11]

I'm not really sure what beating up the old left-wing media straw man has to do with what you quoted, but OK.

I was just speaking to what you were saying in your previous post about the bitching, I should have quoted that post I suppose

If Iraq isn't in a state of civil war, what would you describe the situation over there as?

Progressing very well after some really bad times

Why should the left wing condemn the "left wing" media when the right wing refuses to do the same for the "right wing" media?

Because the right wing media doesnt sit around and continually call our President an idiot, loser, Hitler, etc...what good does that do and what does it prove other than how big their hatred is

[Collier11]

are you new here:D


Of course not, thats why I know exactly where this is headed :D

[Vaevictis]

Abu Ghreb (sp? Your correct spelling is on the other page) - A soldier took a picture he shouldn't have, and yes they acted like fraternity brothers. Hardly a diplomatic faux pas.

The problem with Abu Ghraib is that between Gonzalez' prior memo, and other administration... behaviors... it lent the perception that Abu Ghraib was a result of policy.

Just to ensure I'm not misunderstood: I'm not saying it was policy. Just that the way the administration acted lead a good many people to believe that it was. For Saddam Hussein, that's no big deal. For the USA, that's a huge PR and diplomatic blunder.


I'm not sure what kind of diplomacy will bring bin Laden from hiding, be it Pakistan or any other country.

See above post.

[Collier11]

As I said: When the **** hits the fan, sometimes these things will happen. We keep unsavory people on the payroll for a reason. But you do it using deniable assets, and then you deny, deny, deny. You NEVER EVER EVER admit it.


In this case, Agree!

I don't blame Bush for the failure to capture Bin Laden. At issue is our inability to get the Pakistani government to commit the appropriate resources to finding him or allow us to do so.

Our problem is trusting Pakistan in the first place

About the only redeeming scenario would be if we're just saying Bin Laden is is in Pakistan, but if that's the case, the benefits had better be amazing, as we're destabilizing a freaking nuclear power in the process.


Agree

You know who's job it is to ensure that the people feeding him advice are in fact feeding him good advice, right?

I agree, but when all of the intelligence you are getting from those you trust says A, then why would you initially think B? His mistake was not admitting B once we realized that his confidants lied/made a mistake stating A



Irrelevant to my point. Bin Laden and Saddam could have been butt-buddies plotting the overthrow of the US on a daily basis. But the perception is that we trumped up "evidence" to go to war, and that is a serious, serious problem.

Dont you watch movies, Bin Laden is not Saddams butt buddy...Satan is! :D

I was just stating this because many liberals state this being one of GW's big Lies although some say it was true

[Frozen Sooner]

Because the right wing media doesnt sit around and continually call our President an idiot, loser, Hitler, etc...what good does that do and what does it prove other than how big their hatred is

Can you point to an example in the mainstream news of this? I've NEVER heard President Bush referred to as Hitler in a mainstream news outlet. For that matter, I've never heard him called an idiot or loser in a mainstream news outlet either.

If we're talking about entertainment or talk programs-yeah, I can recall fairly sharp criticism or satire of President Bush on both of those. Don't recall him ever being called Hitler, but there's been pretty strong implication of him being an idiot.

Of course, the same can be said for Carter. Try telling me that the media outlets of the day didn't rake him over the coals.

Bill Clinton was generally portrayed as a smug, philandering party-boy on entertainment programs during his presidency. His wife is portrayed as a shrill and controlling shrew.

It's part of the gig-people make fun of you a lot when you're president.

[Collier11]

I dont know what you consider mainstream media, but I have seen a hundred instances where people are calling him an idiot(and im not talking about SNL) and yes, I have witnessed people referring to him as Hitler...If I find a link ill post it but I know one is Moveon.org

[Vaevictis]

I agree, but when all of the intelligence you are getting from those you trust says A, then why would you initially think B? His mistake was not admitting B once we realized that his confidants lied/made a mistake stating A

Yeah, I think he muffed the cost/benefit on that one. :)

[Soonerus]

When dissent meets nullification of free speech and opinion, something is wrong...it is unAmerican...

[Frozen Sooner]

I dont know what you consider mainstream media, but I have seen a hundred instances where people are calling him an idiot(and im not talking about SNL) and yes, I have witnessed people referring to him as Hitler...If I find a link ill post it

Someone on the mainstream news-not an opinion show, but a news program-called the President an idiot?

Mainstream-I'd call CBS, FOX, ABC, NBC, CNN, MSNBC mainstream for television media. For print media, I'd say AP, Gannett, Reuters, and any paper with a circulation over a million.

[Collier11]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36456

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTP2gs-NUtc&feature=related Olberman on MSNBC

and if are interested, you can find several comparing Him to Hitler


If you want instances of media referring to him as in idiot just search for 10 seconds and you will find hundreds

[olevetonahill]

When dissent meets nullification of free speech and opinion, something is wrong...it is unAmerican...
Ya sayin Mike Is unamerican fer Nullifyin yer kids speech ?

[Frozen Sooner]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36456

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTP2gs-NUtc&feature=related Olberman on MSNBC

and if are interested, you can find several comparing Him to Hitler


If you want instances of media referring to him as in idiot just search for 10 seconds and you will find hundreds

1. MoveOn.org is a political action committee, not a member of the media.

2. The "Bush-Hitler" deal was a political ad that MoveOn did NOT endorse. It was posted to their site as an entry in a contest and was removed as objectionable.

3. Keith Olberman has an opinion show, not a news show. The last part of the show-which is what you've posted-is specifically an opinion piece, not a news piece.

You're going to have to try again.

[Soonerus]

Ya sayin Mike Is unamerican fer Nullifyin yer kids speech ?

Who asked you ???

[Collier11]

Olberman is on MSNBC, this isnt even the point of this thread but I can assure you that I have heard many others... Im not saying you are wrong and I can see where you are coming from in that most of these are opinion pieces but they are still on mainstream, I just want to get back to the point of it all which has surprisingly been an interesting discussion

[critical_phil]

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3716/jamiedisapproveskz2.jpg

[1stTimeCaller]

Who asked you ???
I did and Mongo asked me.

[Soonerus]

I did and Mongo asked me.

Who was talking to you ???

[1stTimeCaller]

You were.

[SoonerGirl06]

Who are you talking to?

[Soonerus]

You were.

Sorry, I was not addressing you..it is ok...

[critical_phil]

me?

[Mongo]

I did and Mongo asked me.

i didnt ask you to drag me into this

[1stTimeCaller]

Sorry, I was not addressing you..it is ok...
I wanna have your baby:hot:

[critical_phil]

don't fall for it Rusty.

he is a lying, filthy whore.

[Frozen Sooner]

don't fall for it Rusty.

he is a lying, filthy whore.

That doesn't mean he doesn't want to have Rus' baby.

I mean, he'd grow up to be a distance runner.

[Mongo]

I can fart with great thrust if I choose to, or I can silence it to a meer squeek

I have that kind of talent

[1stTimeCaller]

I would treat Rusty right and would never lie to him. Dinner would be ready every day when he got home from work and happy hour.

[Honest Abe]

don't fall for it Rusty.

he is a lying, filthy whore.
post reported...

[critical_phil]

post reported...


mods: for the record, i wasn't really calling anyone a name. ask 1TC to prove he isn't a lying, filthy whore.

tia.

[Frozen Sooner]

mods: for the record, i wasn't really calling anyone a name. ask 1TC to prove he isn't a lying, filthy whore.

tia.

I wouldn't trust anything that came out of his whore mouth anyhow.

You're in the clear.

[1stTimeCaller]

Rusty, I wanna slather your bobo with butter and spank you with sturdy cuts of beef jerky.

PM me, srsly.

:hot:

[1stTimeCaller]

see, Mike knows that I'm not filthy.

humpers

[Soonerus]

I wouldn't trust anything that came out of his whore mouth anyhow.

You're in the clear.

whore similar to dyke....double standard with instant banning.....not the right thing.(Stephen Covey)...

[1stTimeCaller]

whore similar to dyke....double standard with instant banning.....not the right thing.(Stephen Covey)...

where have you been you naughty boy?
:twinkies:

[critical_phil]

you hear that you filthy lying ****ing whore? i'm in the clear.


Rusty, do not trust that oilfield trash. he relishes his night in the barrel, and he'll break your heart like it's a cheap thing that could be easily broken....

[Frozen Sooner]

whore similar to dyke....double standard with instant banning.....not the right thing.(Stephen Covey)...

1. Stephen Covey is a hack.

2. Counselor, I think you understand what "double standard" means and why it doesn't apply here.

3. Truth is a sovereign defense to claims of slander or libel.

[1stTimeCaller]

Rusty, I wanna slather your bobo with butter and spank you with sturdy cuts of beef jerky.

PM me, srsly.

:hot:

I didn't want you to miss this big boy!!

Rusty, srsly, PM me.

xoxo

[critical_phil]

over....the....line.


.....boorish.

[Soonerus]

1. Stephen Covey is a hack.

2. Counselor, I think you understand what "double standard" means and why it doesn't apply here.

3. Truth is a sovereign defense to claims of slander or libel.

I can only comment on item #1 with personal knowledge, and you are dead wrong and have probably not read his series of books....you should...good stuff...

[Frozen Sooner]

I have read his books. And I should probably take that back, or Hurricane'bone is going to rip my head off.

I found Carnegie more effective and useful.

[1stTimeCaller]

don't deny our love Rusty.

don't...
do...
it...

[critical_phil]

whore similar to dyke....double standard with instant banning.....not the right thing.(Stephen Covey)...


i googled this about 8 different ways and cannot find this statement attributed to Stephen Covey anywhere.


link?

[Frozen Sooner]

i googled this about 8 different ways and cannot find this statement attributed to Stephen Covey anywhere.


link?

I don't have a link, but I may be off to "Sharpen the Saw" here in a few.

[1stTimeCaller]

I can think of about 8 ways I want to google Rusty.
:hot:

[critical_phil]

i don't read books by people not named Critchton, so i am unaware of your high-falutin terms.

[critical_phil]

but i can spoil the ending of Next.......it has transgenic monkey-humans.

[Frozen Sooner]

but i can spoil the ending of Next.......it has transgenic monkey-humans.

Oh sure. But you can say that about ALL of Michael Chrichton's books.

[critical_phil]

i wish i had a witty retort.........

[Soonerus]

Can you say weird...

[olevetonahill]

I can think of about 8 ways I want to google Rusty.
:hot:
I think your about to win him over . you Go gurl .

[Rogue]

Well, this thread certainly took a different turn than I expected.

[Sooner_Bob]

Yes it did.

[jk the sooner fan]

Also, I hate the "no terrorist attacks mean Bush is keeping us safe" logic. My shoes repel tigers, I know this because I have never been attacked by one while wearing them.

by far, that is the dumbest parallel i've ever read on here

[jk the sooner fan]

Dude, we publicly admitted to waterboarding three people post 9/11. Do you really think that in 60 years:

1. Waterboarding is all we've ever done.
2. It's only been three people.

I find that pretty unbelievable.

3 whole people? OH MY GAWD

you're a glass half empty kinda guy arent you?

[usmc-sooner]

3 whole people? OH MY GAWD

you're a glass half empty kinda guy arent you?

plus we do that to our own guys at SERE

[jk the sooner fan]

plus we do that to our own guys at SERE

yeah, exactly, i wonder how many of our own service members have gone thru that during that training

and i wonder how many american lives were saved by water boarding those three terrorists

put me in the category as ok with it

[Vaevictis]

3 whole people? OH MY GAWD

If you believe we've only ever done this kind of thing (and worse) -- or arranged for it -- three times... well, I've got a nice shiny bridge to sell you.

We don't keep shady people on the CIA's payroll for nothing.

[usmc-sooner]

If you believe we've only ever done this kind of thing -- or arranged for it -- three times... well, I've got a nice shiny bridge to sell you.

We don't keep shady people on the CIA's payroll for nothing.

I think you've seen a few too many movies.

[Harry Beanbag]

If you believe we've only ever done this kind of thing -- or arranged for it -- three times... well, I've got a nice shiny bridge to sell you.

We don't keep shady people on the CIA's payroll for nothing.


We keep them on the payroll to protect America. Unless we're skinning people alive, performing mass beheadings, or boiling people in acid the public does not need to know what they're doing.

[Vaevictis]

We keep them on the payroll to protect America. Unless we're skinning people alive, performing mass beheadings, or boiling people in acid the public does not need to know what they're doing.

... which, if you go back and take a look at what I previously said, is pretty much my point.

We keep them on the CIA/etc's payroll for a reason -- they're deniable. But because of various things this administration has done, it's pretty much impossible for us to even plausibly deny that we do these things.

[usmc-sooner]

... which, if you go back and take a look at what I said, is pretty much my point.

We keep them on the CIA/etc's payroll for a reason -- they're deniable. But because of various things this administration has done, it's pretty much impossible for us to even plausibly deny that we do these things.

and you know this because..............................


oh yeah and the military is hiding UFO's out at area 51

[Vaevictis]

and you know this because..............................

I know exactly what because?

That it's been more than more than three? I believe that because it's almost never just the stuff you know about, and well, considering how much higher the stakes were during the Cold War and WII, IMO, it's just plain stupid to believe we've only just started doing it since 9/11.