Presidential factoid...

[Okla-homey]

If John McCain wins all the marbles, he'll be the first president born outside the United States since William Henry Harrison. See, WHH was born in 1773, before the establishment of the US. Thus WHH was born a British subject.

McCain was born in Panama on our navy base there. His parents were both US citizens and he first saw the light of day in the Canal Zone, then under US sovereignty (until 1979), so that makes him a "natural born citizen" -- I guess.


''No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President.'' Art II

Three major candidates have sought the Presidency who were born outside the United States: Barry Goldwater (ran in 1964) was born in Arizona while it was still a U.S. territory, George Romney (ran in 1968) was born in Mexico to U.S. parents who had split the US to live in Mexico in a Mormon offshoot enclave, and John McCain.

Barry Goldwater's case among these three is unique in that although Arizona was not a state, it was a fully incorporated territory of the United States, making it debatable whether or not he was born "outside" the United States.

None of these candidates was elected, so it has never been fully addressed whether children born to Americans overseas are "natural-born citizens" and thus eligible for the Presidency. However, as you know, McCain is currently seeking the 2008 Republican nomination for President.

Bottomline: This might get tricky for McCain. I could see a lawsuit eventually winding its way to the Supreme Court on the issue of McCain's qualification as a "natural born citizen" since it's never been solidly addressed by the Court in this context.

[dolemitesooner]

My dad was also born on the same base in the canal zone.

He was accualty born off base, and has duel citezenship

[VeeJay]

Hillary was educated at Wellsley. Couldn't that be considered a Hostile Nation?

[Widescreen]

I thought you were going to say he was born in Vietnam. Nobody seems to have heard of him before then.


;)

[Flagstaffsooner]

Hillary was educated at Wellsley. Couldn't that be considered a Hostile Nation?She was hatched from a snake egg.

[Frozen Sooner]

Don't see how it's an issue. First, the current court isn't likely to overturn the election of a Republican on this issue. Second, it's bad public policy-if McCain isn't a natural-born citizen, then every person who was born under the same circumstances isn't a natural-born citizen. If they aren't natural-born and they haven't gone through the naturalization process, then they're not citizens at all.

I highly doubt that the Supremes are going to all of a sudden declare that thousands of Americans aren't citizens.

[Frozen Sooner]

OK, after some research, under US Federal Law, John McCain is a natural-born citizen of the United States.

§ 1401. Nationals and citizens of United States at birth

(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;
(b) a person born in the United States to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe: Provided, That the granting of citizenship under this subsection shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of such person to tribal or other property;
(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;
(d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;
(e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person;
(f) a person of unknown parentage found in the United States while under the age of five years, until shown, prior to his attaining the age of twenty-one years, not to have been born in the United States;
(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person
(A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or
(B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; and
(h) a person born before noon (Eastern Standard Time) May 24, 1934, outside the limits and jurisdiction of the United States of an alien father and a mother who is a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, had resided in the United States.

[Okla-homey]

OK, after some research, under US Federal Law, John McCain is a natural-born citizen of the United States.

§ 1401. Nationals and citizens of United States at birth

(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;
(b) a person born in the United States to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe: Provided, That the granting of citizenship under this subsection shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of such person to tribal or other property;
(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;
(d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;
(e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person;
(f) a person of unknown parentage found in the United States while under the age of five years, until shown, prior to his attaining the age of twenty-one years, not to have been born in the United States;
(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person
(A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or
(B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; and
(h) a person born before noon (Eastern Standard Time) May 24, 1934, outside the limits and jurisdiction of the United States of an alien father and a mother who is a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, had resided in the United States.

But therein lies the rub. See, people whose citizenship flows from this statute are citizens by operation of law, NOT natural born citizens under the Constitution.

Thus, there are precisely three ways to be a citizen of the United States.

1) natural born by operation of the XIV Amendment -- i.e. birth in the United States.
2) by naturalization
3) by birth per operation of law (under the cited statute)

Here's why its an important distinction. People whose citizenship flows from an operation of law are also subject to having their citizenship voided (called expatriation) if the law changes. OTOH, people who are natural born in the US under the XIV Amendment are'nt subject to expatriation unless the Constitition is amended again repealing the XIV Amendment.

I realize this looks like a petty difference, but it's actually a huge difference, legally speaking.

[Frozen Sooner]

Homey, as I read it, the Constitutions states that there are only two ways to be a citizen of the United States: to be a natural-born citizen or to be naturalized. The cited statute defines natural-born citizenship. There's really no other meaning to someone being a citizen "at birth." If you're a citizen at birth, you're a natural-born citizen.

I see the point of law that you're making, but I don't believe it's a valid line of thought. Federal law cannot supercede the Constitution and the Constitution explicitly provides for only two avenues of citizenship.

caveat: Hey, you're the one who's working on their JD and (as yet) I'm not. However, that's just the way I see it and I think likely the way the Supremes would see it: the legislature took a term that was unclear from the text of the Constitution and defined it.

[85Sooner]

Lets make sure that doesn't happen. Vote Romney

[Whet]

So, to get rid of the illegals having their kids here in the USA so they will be citizens, we must amend the Constitution to disallow citizenship to the off-spring of these law-breaking illegal alien mothers?

[Okla-homey]

So, to get rid of the illegals having their kids here in the USA so they will be citizens, we must amend the Constitution to disallow citizenship to the off-spring of these law-breaking illegal alien mothers?

Yes.

[Okla-homey]

the legislature took a term that was unclear from the text of the Constitution and defined it.

As you will learn in "Con Law I" Young Jedi, that is not the legislature's prerogative in this particular context. There is this case called Marbury v. Madison that established the Supreme Court of the United States as the final arbiter of what the Constitution means.

The Court has held the Congress has plenary power over naturalization/immigration per Article I, sec. 8. Thus Congress could pass the statute you cited. It's another kettle of fish entirely to posit the terms in Article II, sec. 1 are subject to interpretion and/or broadening by operation of a statute. Thus, issue of what "natural born citizen" means for persons aspiring to the presidency remains unsettled by the Court because they have never had to address it.

[Newbomb Turk]

looks like homey is learnin to speak lawyer...which is why we need them.

;)

[Frozen Sooner]

Agreed that the Supremes have final say over what the Constitution means. However, Congress has the right to define what the borders of the United States are and what is considered US soil.

I'll expand on this in a bit. Busy with something. :)

[1stTimeCaller]

But therein lies the rub. See, people whose citizenship flows from this statute are citizens by operation of law, NOT natural born citizens under the Constitution.

Thus, there are precisely three ways to be a citizen of the United States.

1) natural born by operation of the XIV Amendment -- i.e. birth in the United States.
2) by naturalization
3) by birth per operation of law (under the cited statute)

Here's why its an important distinction. People whose citizenship flows from an operation of law are also subject to having their citizenship voided (called expatriation) if the law changes. OTOH, people who are natural born in the US under the XIV Amendment are'nt subject to expatriation unless the Constitition is amended again repealing the XIV Amendment.

I realize this looks like a petty difference, but it's actually a huge difference, legally speaking.

what about this part of the 14th Amendment?

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
Does that say that Congress can define natural born citizen?

[Frozen Sooner]

I wouldn't read it that way. I would read that as granting Congress the power to force states to recognize anyone born in the US or naturalized thereof as citizens. I guess maybe in a roundabout way it would, though, as there would have to be a standard definition of "in the United States" to enforce.

[Rogue]

Interesting historical bit. These kinds of semantics and intellectual masturbation lead to things like WJ Clinton waxing about the definition of "is."

[bluedogok]

I ad always understood that if you are born on a US military installation, to US citizens (one of whom is in the Armed Forces) that you qualify as a US citizen. It seems that is how most of the military brats born overseas qualify.

[Frozen Sooner]

I ad always understood that if you are born on a US military installation, to US citizens (one of whom is in the Armed Forces) that you qualify as a US citizen. It seems that is how most of the military brats born overseas qualify.

You are. That's the thrust of the title I posted.

However, Homey and I disagree on whether this means that you are a natural-born US citizen or not. Actually, I don't think we actually disagree on that. However, he feels that the argument that he doesn't qualify for the presidency is something SCOTUS would need to rule on. I personally think that either A) they won't hear it because it has no merit or B) they'll hear it specifically to shoot it down.

Honestly, he's probably right (he's going to a fancy private law school. :D) but I'm just trying to get some practice arguing this kind of point in this thread. I'm going back for my JD next year it looks like, so I gotta get used to this schtick.

[Harry Beanbag]

United States military installations overseas and naval vessels are considered sovereign American soil. You guys are really nerding this one out.

[jk the sooner fan]

United States military installations overseas and naval vessels are considered sovereign American soil. You guys are really nerding this one out.

its that whole "i know more than you" thing ;)


my son was born in the military hospital in heidelberg germany - he has a birth certificate from the US State Department - United States Citizen Born Abroad

[Howzit]

Here's my parctice at arguing:

I have no idea, but I'm thinking that in McCain's 2 (or 3?) times running for POTUS, somebody thought to look into it.