historical accounts of Jesus?

[Oldnslo]

I am way unqualified to answer a question I just heard.

I seem to recall that Jesus is mentioned in Herod's records, but I don't know that for sure.

Is anyone aware of accounts of Jesus of Nazareth outside of the N.T.? How does one prove that Jesus existed as a person without reference to a biblical passage?

[Miko]

I think He voted repeatedly in some of the Huey P. Long elections. So there should be some sort of registration records.

[Fugue]

Josephus comes to mind along with some Romans like Tacitus(sp?).

[OKLA21FAN]

wikipedia :pop:

[Hamhock]

Jesus, Who Is He
Tim Lahae

[Miko]

wikipedia :pop:

According to my dad, His middle innitial is H.

YWIA:D

[OklahomaTuba]

There are actually more historical sources for Jesus then there are for many other historical figures.

[OKLA21FAN]

There are actually more historical sources for Jesus then there are for many other historical figures.
i think what he was asking for was contemporaneous historical accounts. not sure you will find many more than the writings from Josephus.

[Sooner_Bob]

I seem to remember some archaeological evidence found that mentioned King David, but off the top of my head I can't recall if similar evidence has been found for Jesus.

[royalfan5]

According to my dad, His middle innitial is H.

YWIA:D
I was told that the H stands for Harold.

[Sooner_Bob]

A quick google search found these:

link (http://www.probe.org/content/view/18/77/)

link 2 (http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/library/extrabiblical.htm)

[Miko]

He should be realatively easy to find. How many Jewish guys were there with Puerto Rican names back then? :D

[SoonerJack]

Oklahoma Tuba wins! I heard a guy talking about this very thing last night. Historical refs for Alexander the Great: 7.
Historical refs for Jesus: way more, sorry I don't remember the actual number.

There is a really good book by Lee Strobel called A Case for Christ. Strobel, an atheist journalist, set out to prove that the whole JC thing was bunk. He failed and wound up coming to Christ himself.

God 1 Lee Strobel 0.

Good book.

[Fugue]

I believe she speaks of Jesus.

http://newsinfo.iu.edu/pub/libs/images/usr/3650.jpg

[Miko]

God 1 Lee Strobel 0.



God had a definate reach advantage and outweighs Strobel. Strobel never had a chance.

[OKLA21FAN]

Oklahoma Tuba wins! I heard a guy talking about this very thing last night. Historical refs for Alexander the Great: 7.
Historical refs for Jesus: way more, sorry I don't remember the actual number.


just stop right there

[soonerinabilene]

I know that a couple of years ago they found a tomb that had an inscription on it in hebrew that translated to "James, brother of Jesus"

[MrJimBeam]

I believe she speaks of Jesus.

http://newsinfo.iu.edu/pub/libs/images/usr/3650.jpg
She has a huge jaw.

[Frozen Sooner]

God 1 Lee Strobel 0.

Were I a believer, I would probably write that as God 1, Strobel Infinity.

[crawfish]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

[OKLA21FAN]

I know that a couple of years ago they found a tomb that had an inscription on it in hebrew that translated to "James, brother of Jesus"
in that same tomb an Ossurary was found that had "Mary Magdalene" inscribed on it. which sort blows the 'pure without sin jesus' theory (if one wants to go that rout)


just sayin :pop:

[OKLA21FAN]

a post that was cloned

[Oldnslo]

THANKS!

[Sooner_Bob]

which sort blows the 'pure without sin jesus' theory (if one wants to go that rout)


just sayin :pop:


How's that? :confused:

[OKLA21FAN]

How's that? :confused:
his to do with family tombs of that time, and who gets a spot :pop:

[Sooner_Bob]

his to do with family tombs of that time, and who gets a spot :pop:


Please explain . . . I've never heard about any "to do".

[Frozen Sooner]

Wouldn't the tomb have read "James, brother of Yeshua"?

[OKLA21FAN]

Please explain . . . I've never heard about any "to do".
okay, in a nutshell


in this 'jesus tomb', they found 9 ossuaries and 6 of those had inscriptions on them.

the names on the inscriptions ranged from jesus, 'maria' (mother of jesus) and Mary Magdalene. (the others were brothers or Joseph)

the 'jesus' ossuary and the mary magdalene ossuary were DNA tested and found to not be blood relatives. while the other tests showed a blood line to the jesus ossuary .

'family tombs' of that time were for 'family' members only, and mary magdalene would have only been included if she was a spouse.



now of course this all is up to much debate and one reason why most religions have not recognized the validity of this tomb.

i think it was the history channel that did a very nice documentary about this, and later did an even nicer 'critique' of the documentary's faults.

[Sooner_Bob]

Thanks . . . I hadn't paid much attention to that stuff. Didn't James Cameron do something about it?

So you can salvage DNA after 2000 years?

[swardboy]

I seem to remember some archaeological evidence found that mentioned King David, but off the top of my head I can't recall if similar evidence has been found for Jesus.

Archaeological evidence has established the historicity of Pontius Pilate, of course a contemporary and key figure in the life of Christ.

http://www.bible-history.com/archaeology/israel/pilate-inscription.html

[sitzpinkler]

okay, in a nutshell


in this 'jesus tomb', they found 9 ossuaries and 6 of those had inscriptions on them.

the names on the inscriptions ranged from jesus, 'maria' (mother of jesus) and Mary Magdalene. (the others were brothers or Joseph)

the 'jesus' ossuary and the mary magdalene ossuary were DNA tested and found to not be blood relatives. while the other tests showed a blood line to the jesus ossuary .

'family tombs' of that time were for 'family' members only, and mary magdalene would have only been included if she was a spouse.



now of course this all is up to much debate and one reason why most religions have not recognized the validity of this tomb.

i think it was the history channel that did a very nice documentary about this, and later did an even nicer 'critique' of the documentary's faults.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/06/18/jesus.box/

[sitzpinkler]

i think what he was asking for was contemporaneous historical accounts. not sure you will find many more than the writings from Josephus.

from which the accounts of Jesus are thought to be fakes added at a later date

[crawfish]

For me - four books (some would say, three sources: Mark, Q and John), alongside the fact that hundreds of eyewitnesses became followers willing to die for their beliefs, seems like pretty unassailable evidence that Jesus existed. All of his apostles were killed except John - and you typically don't die for a lie.

Honestly, we don't need many - or any - third-party confirmations. And we don't get many, and none in his lifetime.

The reason is simple: Jesus wasn't meant to be the one to spread the new covenant to the world. He was the fulfillment of prophecy, the culmination of the old covenant and the foundation of the new one. He started from very humble means, spent the first few years of his adulthood teaching his followers and trying to keep a low profile (read Mark, he commands people not to tell about his works many times), and really was only a big public figure for scant days inbetween his declaration of Messiahship (the ride into Bethany on a colt) and his death on the cross. He was like the initial spark that causes a huge fire - short in lifespan but long in effect.

[Sooner_Bob]

For me - four books (some would say, three sources: Mark, Q and John), alongside the fact that hundreds of eyewitnesses became followers willing to die for their beliefs, seems like pretty unassailable evidence that Jesus existed. All of his apostles were killed except John - and you typically don't die for a lie.

Honestly, we don't need many - or any - third-party confirmations. And we don't get many, and none in his lifetime.

The reason is simple: Jesus wasn't meant to be the one to spread the new covenant to the world. He was the fulfillment of prophecy, the culmination of the old covenant and the foundation of the new one. He started from very humble means, spent the first few years of his adulthood teaching his followers and trying to keep a low profile (read Mark, he commands people not to tell about his works many times), and really was only a big public figure for scant days inbetween his declaration of Messiahship (the ride into Bethany on a colt) and his death on the cross. He was like the initial spark that causes a huge fire - short in lifespan but long in effect.



:cool: Nice jorb.

[OKLA21FAN]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/06/18/jesus.box/
that box was not found in the 'jesus tomb'

although the box you are referring to adds to both sides of controversy. there are a few implications if a Christian religion was to recognize this tomb and findings. mainly that if this is indeed jesus' tomb, it contradicts the resurrection and assention strories, jesus and celibacy.

its a sticky subject to say the least

[Widescreen]

okay, in a nutshell


in this 'jesus tomb', they found 9 ossuaries and 6 of those had inscriptions on them.

the names on the inscriptions ranged from jesus, 'maria' (mother of jesus) and Mary Magdalene. (the others were brothers or Joseph)

the 'jesus' ossuary and the mary magdalene ossuary were DNA tested and found to not be blood relatives. while the other tests showed a blood line to the jesus ossuary .

'family tombs' of that time were for 'family' members only, and mary magdalene would have only been included if she was a spouse.



now of course this all is up to much debate and one reason why most religions have not recognized the validity of this tomb.

i think it was the history channel that did a very nice documentary about this, and later did an even nicer 'critique' of the documentary's faults.
Yeah, I watched that. It was a funny show.

However, you didn't explain how any of that draws you to this conclusion:


which sort blows the 'pure without sin jesus' theory
What exactly is sinful in Him being buried in an ossuary? Being married isn't a sin. Neither is dying.

[OKLA21FAN]

Yeah, I watched that. It was a funny show.

However, you didn't explain how any of that draws you to this conclusion:


What exactly is sinful in Him being buried in an ossuary? Being married isn't a sin. Neither is dying.

yep,

however there is no record of jesus being married (other than a few 'scriptures' that the council of Nicea deemed as not being cannon.)

the problem or issue lies is why would a non member of the family being included? in this case mary magdalene.

there lies a quandary

[Widescreen]

So you can make the argument that if the ossuary stuff is true (I don't believe it is) that the Bible was wrong on the points related to the resurrection and its silence on Christ's marriage. But you can't say somehow that proves He sinned - which is what you were suggesting in your earlier post.

[OKLA21FAN]

So you can make the argument that if the ossuary stuff is true (I don't believe it is) that the Bible was wrong on the points related to the resurrection and its silence on Christ's marriage. But you can't say somehow that proves He sinned - which is what you were suggesting in your earlier post.
i see your point. and it is a double edged sword.

the problem would be that IF jesus had married MM, that would have been a significant event and included in the cannon. if not married, to include MM in the tomb would be admitting that Jesus and MM had a relationship that equaled marriage in private, but not in public. one could construe that as 'sin' (having 'relations' without being married in the church)

in a way it is like the lack of a complete fossil record, without it, one can't make a positive judgment either way.