Defensive Question?

[Collier11]

First off, lets please avoid this thread turning into a BV bashfest.

My question to those of you who know more about schemes is this, why dont our blitzes ever work?

It seems to me like all we ever do is blitz DBs and they take so long to get to the qb that we often dont get there in time. I sit back and watch WV, UGA, USC, etc...all the other top teams blitz and their blitzes get to the qb. Is it timing of the calls, bad calls, or what?

[humblesooner]

First off, lets please avoid this thread turning into a BV bashfest.

My question to those of you who know more about schemes is this, why dont our blitzes ever work?

It seems to me like all we ever do is blitz DBs and they take so long to get to the qb that we often dont get there in time. I sit back and watch WV, UGA, USC, etc...all the other top teams blitz and their blitzes get to the qb. Is it timing of the calls, bad calls, or what?

I am not a football X and O guy, but my take is that we do not have a Tommie or Dusty on the D-Line commanding a double team. If you line up in a 4 man front and offensive lines are able to block one-on-one, that leaves an O-lineman to block a blitzing LB, and a TE or RB to block a blitzing DB, or even two blitzing DB's.
I have a tendency to over simplify things, but that is my uneducated opinion/guess at to the problems.

[primetime43]

I'm starting to wonder where this team speed is we supposedly have???

[soonermix]

its all bv's fault he should be fired..... j/k

[tulsaoilerfan]

I'm starting to wonder where this team speed is we supposedly have???
we haven't had a lot of speed the last 2-3 years on defense

[Collier11]

we haven't had a lot of speed the last 2-3 years on defense

this I will disagree with, we havent had great speed at LB which may be the problem but our secondary speed has been pretty good!

[tulsaoilerfan]

this I will disagree with, we havent had great speed at LB which may be the problem but our secondary speed has been pretty good!
Sorry, gotta disagree on the DB's;i haven't seen anyone to approach Perkins, Strait, or even Roy(outside of Reggie) the last couple of seasons

[insuranceman_22]

Our overall team speed isn't all the fantastic. Also our front 6 guys haven't been dominant for a couple of years. I think next year will be a diffenent story though. If DG get his stuff in order, he's a potential All American and McCoy will be a very good player next year. English will be healthy on the end and.....not sure on the other side yet. Those 3 will be improved. At the LB slot.....well nothing is for certain yet. RR isn't speedy, perhaps another year and he'll regain some of it or an unmentionable could happen to him. Loftin wasn't all that fast, but he could read on runs exceptionally well. I don't know who'll be there next year, but I think they'll be faster than what we had this year. On the occassion we did have the 4-3 look Baker could move. Holmes is fast from the outside, Harris is a tweener, not as fast as a normal secondary player, but faster than a LB. The new starters back there will have some speed. As for our blitz pkgs, we seem to try to blitz in zone most of the time, but it's just not happening very well for us. Perhaps we should man up occassionally and bring the house......

[stoops the eternal pimp]

It seems to me that the old blitz packages would feature a corner blitzing from the left on a right handed quarterback and vice versa..blind side blitzes. dont think OU does that as much.

Also it seems that when Brandon Everage was playing, they would play more DBs more often, rarely actually having all 3 LB's on the field. Especially on any 3rd down play. And they would blitz more off the edges often stacking blitzers on the weakside of the line causing a OL to choose which one he would block and the other prett much getting a dead run at the QB.

BV blitzes his LBs a lot more than MS did.

[Scott D]

It seems to me that the old blitz packages would feature a corner blitzing from the left on a right handed quarterback and vice versa..blind side blitzes. dont think OU does that as much.

Also it seems that when Brandon Everage was playing, they would play more DBs more often, rarely actually having all 3 LB's on the field. Especially on any 3rd down play. And they would blitz more off the edges often stacking blitzers on the weakside of the line causing a OL to choose which one he would block and the other prett much getting a dead run at the QB.

BV blitzes his LBs a lot more than MS did.

90+% of plays under Mike Stoops were in a 4-2-5 formation.

Thanks to Bo Pellini, 90+% of plays under Brent Venables are in a 4-3-4 formation. He ran more 4-2-5 sets this season than he did in 04-06.

[princetonsooner]

LB speed is an issue! Yet,we are either missing out or not recruiting many backers. I don't understand why so many safeties.

[primetime43]

Our defense just doesn't attack as much as the past. Yes there has been glimpses like this years BigXII title game. Anyway I think this has been part of the problem in the recent bowl games. We sit back instead of attacking. I think thats where schemes and coaching comes in. The last time I really had confidence in the defense was the 03 team. BTW, how did that team lose 2 games that year?? I still lose sleep thinking about that team!

[usmc-sooner]

this I will disagree with, we havent had great speed at LB which may be the problem but our secondary speed has been pretty good!
who in the backfield has "speed"

D.J. Wolfe, Harris, and Walker have all been considered questionable as far as speed. I wouldn't call Smith a burner and probably the fastest is Holmes.

[Collier11]

they all run in the 4.5 to 4.55 range, while I suppose it would be nice to have 4 db's that run a 4.45 or less, that is hard to come by. What I think the problem is might be the lack of speed in their hips as far as starting/stopping and changing direction

[effay]

who in the backfield has "speed"

D.J. Wolfe, Harris, and Walker have all been considered questionable as far as speed. I wouldn't call Smith a burner and probably the fastest is Holmes.

From what I've heard, Marcus was consistently one of the fastest guys on the team in testing. He supposedly regularly ran 4.4 - 4.45

[usmc-sooner]

they all run in the 4.5 to 4.55 range, while I suppose it would be nice to have 4 db's that run a 4.45 or less, that is hard to come by. What I think the problem is might be the lack of speed in their hips as far as starting/stopping and changing direction

that's great speed if you're a rb and 200lbs plus but not great speed if you have to cover a 175lb burner at WR.

BTW I think these 40 speeds are greatly exagerated. I knew a guy in the Marines who could pick em up and put em down. Absolutely the fastest guy I've ever met in person. He was 100m State Champ from Mississippi. I've watched and played football in Oklahoma from the late 80's to present, never seen a guy that I thought was faster other than Antonio Perkins. I asked him what his 40 time was and said legit it would probably be about 4.45-4.5. He also said the 100 was a much better measurement of blazing speed.

[effay]

Also, I agree that Lendy is easily the fastest player on the team, with the possible exception of Stradford since I haven't really seen him run too much. He easily ran down Mike Goodson, who is supposed to be one of the fastest guys in the Big XII and he torched Texas Tech's whole team on his pick-6. I wouldn't be surprised if he could get into the 4.3s with some decent technique.

And don't forget that Dom gained on Noel Devine on his long run in the Fiesta Bowl. I think that's says a lot for his speed.

I think the main problem that makes our players look slow sometimes is poor positioning and pursuit.

[Collier11]

that's great speed if you're a rb and 200lbs plus but not great speed if you have to cover a 175lb burner at WR.

BTW I think these 40 speeds are greatly exagerated. I knew a guy in the Marines who could pick em up and put em down. Absolutely the fastest guy I've ever met in person. He was 100m State Champ from Mississippi. I've watched and played football in Oklahoma from the late 80's to present, never seen a guy that I thought was faster other than Antonio Perkins. I asked him what his 40 time was and said legit it would probably be about 4.45-4.5. He also said the 100 was a much better measurement of blazing speed.

I agree, 40 times are overrated but that is what they go by. We have guys that are fast but not too many guys that are quick and trust me there is a big difference which I am sure you already know. THose guys for WV for quck fast, we seem to be straight forward fast and that is a problem.

Obviously things come into question more win you are losing big games but it seems like Ol' Jerry hasnt quite held up his end of the bargain lately either as far as overall team speed. Fair or not, it is his job to make these guys faster

[usmc-sooner]

I agree, 40 times are overrated but that is what they go by. We have guys that are fast but not too many guys that are quick and trust me there is a big difference which I am sure you already know. THose guys for WV for quck fast, we seem to be straight forward fast and that is a problem.

Obviously things come into question more win you are losing big games but it seems like Ol' Jerry hasnt quite held up his end of the bargain lately either as far as overall team speed. Fair or not, it is his job to make these guys faster

you can't make guys faster, you can improve them a little and help them with quickness with plyometrics but speed isn't something you coach.

[effay]

BTW I think these 40 speeds are greatly exagerated. I knew a guy in the Marines who could pick em up and put em down. Absolutely the fastest guy I've ever met in person. He was 100m State Champ from Mississippi. I've watched and played football in Oklahoma from the late 80's to present, never seen a guy that I thought was faster other than Antonio Perkins. I asked him what his 40 time was and said legit it would probably be about 4.45-4.5. He also said the 100 was a much better measurement of blazing speed.

Apparently you can gain or loose a tenth on your 40 time based on your 40 technique/start. For instance, I've heard that the clock at the combine doesn't start until the players hand leaves the ground. If players get good at keeping their hand on the ground for as long as possible they can gain a lot of time. So I agree that the 40 is a pretty useless measure as it is administered. I just use the times as a relative reference because they make sense to everyone.

[Collier11]

you can't make guys faster, you can improve them a little and help them with quickness with plyometrics but speed isn't something you coach.


wrong, by getting them stronger in certain muscles and teaching better technique you can make players faster..case in point

Mark clayton got to OU running anywhere(depends on who tells you) between a 4.55-4.65 and when he left he was running a 4.43

Roy Williams was running a 4.6 range 40 when Stoops took over and left running a mid 4.5

[usmc-sooner]

wrong, by getting them stronger in certain muscles and teaching better technique you can make players faster..case in point

Mark clayton got to OU running anywhere(depends on you tells you) between a 4.55-4.65 and when he left he was running a 4.43

Roy Williams was ruuning a 4.6 range 40 when Stoops took over and left running a mid 4.5

that's my point you can tweak things here and there but you can't coach speed. I don't even think 40 times are that important when you talk about real speed. Q always had great 40 times but he wasn't anywhere near the fastest guy on the team.

[Collier11]

that's my point you can tweak things here and there but you can't coach speed. I don't even think 40 times are that important when you talk about real speed. Q always had great 40 times but he wasn't anywhere near the fastest guy on the team.


well it all depends on how technicle you want to get on the definition of teaching speed...;) I agree again that 40's are overrated, you need speed mixed quickness ala Clayton or Devine from recent memory and you are deadly

[KantoSooner]

I loved a Switzer quote from the 1980's lauding his coaching ability. Something on the order of, "Yeah, none of 'em knew how to run fast before they met me" with tongue firmly in cheek.

I don't have much to input on overall speed except that it is a good thing to have. Leroy Selmon comes to mind.

As far as the quickness deal, I'm wondering if there are not some agility drills that could be borrowed from Sumo wrestling for our interior linemen. Sumo guys are approximately the same size, some much larger, and I swear that they have the quickest first three steps I've ever seen. And they are exploding out of a four point stance, so whatever they're doing would be applicable.

[Collier11]

I loved a Switzer quote from the 1980's lauding his coaching ability. Something on the order of, "Yeah, none of 'em knew how to run fast before they met me" with tongue firmly in cheek.

I don't have much to input on overall speed except that it is a good thing to have. Leroy Selmon comes to mind.

As far as the quickness deal, I'm wondering if there are not some agility drills that could be borrowed from Sumo wrestling for our interior linemen. Sumo guys are approximately the same size, some much larger, and I swear that they have the quickest first three steps I've ever seen. And they are exploding out of a four point stance, so whatever they're doing would be applicable.


while im sure some close-minded foo's are laughing right now, I tend to agree. If we are going to go with bigger offensive lineman we need to work on their lateral quickness alot more(and I dont mean how fast they can get us a false start penalty)

[adoniijahsooner]

that's great speed if you're a rb and 200lbs plus but not great speed if you have to cover a 175lb burner at WR.

BTW I think these 40 speeds are greatly exagerated. I knew a guy in the Marines who could pick em up and put em down. Absolutely the fastest guy I've ever met in person. He was 100m State Champ from Mississippi. I've watched and played football in Oklahoma from the late 80's to present, never seen a guy that I thought was faster other than Antonio Perkins. I asked him what his 40 time was and said legit it would probably be about 4.45-4.5. He also said the 100 was a much better measurement of blazing speed.

I disagree, I ran track with Demond Parker and He would always be ahead at the 40, but I would beat him by 10 feet everytime. I had better top end speed, but he could accelerate better, which is more important for football purposes.

[Curly Bill]

First you say we can't bash BV in this thread.

Then peeps are actually saying we aren't fast on defense?

Makes me not want to get invloved here at all. :cool:

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Fastest 40's from winter workouts last January

4.40 - DB Marcus Walker
4.43 - RB DeMarco Murray
4.45 - DB Quinton Carter
4.46 - RB Allen Patrick
4.47 - WR Quentin Chaney

[tulsaoilerfan]

Unfortunately good times in the 40 don't always mean good football players;the whole defense looked like they were in slow motion compared to WVU's skill players

[stoops the eternal pimp]

The 40's at the combine crack me up because the sound of 50 or 60 stop watches clicking one right after another at the end of the run just shows how off they can be. When Calvin Johnson ran his 4.35 time, I had several guys show me they had it quite a bit slower. From the made up story about the borrowed shows to his super 40, it seems the NFL Network was wanting to create a story. Or watching a big lineman doing his 225 reps and the moron running the set is counting them out and the guy hadn't done one full rep.

[Curly Bill]

Fastest 40's from winter workouts last January

4.40 - DB Marcus Walker
4.43 - RB DeMarco Murray
4.45 - DB Quinton Carter
4.46 - RB Allen Patrick
4.47 - WR Quentin Chaney

...and those are some fast times if in fact legit. I think many times the 40 times we get on kids out of high school is what their HS coaches measure them at with a hand-held stopwatch.

True story: once coached with a man who had been a coach for a long time and who somewhat knew what he was doing. We were timing 8th graders one day after track season and he got one of our guys in 4.36...an 8th grader! Well this kid was fast, and is in fact playing B-ball at North Texas now, but he couldn't break a 4.5 if we timed him today. In other words: don't put a lot of stock in 40 times unless professionally done, and then I don't know how much of an indicator of real football speed they are.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

You'll typically find the OU 40 tests are pretty much on par with what the guy can do. Over the history of watching the combine and comparing them with numbers the Sooners have put out, you typically won't find a big difference

[stoops the eternal pimp]

and the 100 meters is a better measuring stick for speed

[Curly Bill]

and the 100 meters is a better measuring stick for speed

I like the ol' can they run a guy down from behind if a defensive player, and can they keep from getting run down from behind if an offensive player, as a measurement of speed. :D

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I like the ol' can they run a guy down from behind if a defensive player, and can they keep from getting run down from behind if an offensive player, as a measurement of speed. :D


yeah but that doesn't work if the guy running the ball runs a 4.8..you would hope your db could catch him:P

Personally I find football intelligence is the most important. Truthfully all the measurables is a good thing but the interview room has cost some of these guys thousands, some millions of dollars(Dan Cody for one). They chew you up and spit you out and if you can't handle it right, it doesn't bode well for you.

I m a nerd, but its one of my favorite parts of the combine to sit in.

[Curly Bill]

yeah but that doesn't work if the guy running the ball runs a 4.8..you would hope your db could catch him:P


Are you talking about the fullback from WVU here? :O :P

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Are you talking about the fullback from WVU here? :O :P
some have him in the 4.55 to 4.6 range...sounds a little better than the 4.8 that one guy has him at

[zeke]

Speedy or not, if the defense gives away what they are fixing to do it usually fails. Which seemed to me OUr problem blitzing. It was too obvious either by the down and yards or just by the guys giving it away before the ball was snapped.

[Curly Bill]

Speedy or not, if the defense gives away what they are fixing to do it usually fails. Which seemed to me OUr problem blitzing. It was too obvious either by the down and yards or just by the guys giving it away before the ball was snapped.

Our blitz package was indeed terribly predictable and unimaginative. I'm sure it was just because the players didn't execute. ;)

[OUmillenium]

Also, I agree that Lendy is easily the fastest player on the team, with the possible exception of Stradford since I haven't really seen him run too much. He easily ran down Mike Goodson, who is supposed to be one of the fastest guys in the Big XII and he torched Texas Tech's whole team on his pick-6. I wouldn't be surprised if he could get into the 4.3s with some decent technique.

And don't forget that Dom gained on Noel Devine on his long run in the Fiesta Bowl. I think that's says a lot for his speed.

I think the main problem that makes our players look slow sometimes is poor positioning and pursuit.

Absolutely, and I would to that an overly complex defensive scheme that does not play enough man to man.

[Curly Bill]

Absolutely, and I would to that an overly complex defensive scheme that does not play enough man to man.

True dat, we recruit what are thought to be good D-backs but then we don't give them a chance to use that fully because of the soft zone coverages we play so much of. Personally if I were a real stud cornerback I would not give OU a serious look because of that.

[effay]

True dat, we recruit what are thought to be good D-backs but then we don't give them a chance to use that fully because of the soft zone coverages we play so much of. Personally if I were a real stud cornerback I would not give OU a serious look because of that.

A few things here:

-I hate zone defenses probably more than anyone alive. They are terribly boring to watch because there aren't really match-ups (opposite of, say, the Packers D for instance) and, I think, eliminate some of the athletic advantage that good teams have. Nevertheless, in the Big XII it would be suicide to run a man defense. It's just not practical to cover all of the receivers on a Big XII spread offense with a man scheme and still stop the run. No matter how much anyone wants to run man, we just can't do that in our conference. Watch the Big 10 (until Rod's O starts killing it off) or SEC if you want to see it more often.

-We don't really recruit any corners because of our zone, so really we don't give stud corners a serious look either. We almost exclusively recruit corner/safety hybrids. I think the only pure corners Stoops has ever recruited are Derrick Strait and Marcus Walker. Dom is pretty cornerish, but even he has seen time at safety. This isn't a bad thing though; it's what the cover 2/3 requires since the corners have to be able to play the run and aren't often required to run with a receiver for long. Quickness is the essential trait, not speed.

-You mention the "soft" zone that we have and I would say that this is my greatest criticism of our zone scheme. It always seems to me like we bank too much on opposing QBs not being able to make all the throws so we get gashed when they can. For instance, we pretty much give the 10 yard out to anyone who can make that throw. Also, the deep post often kills us when we face strong-armed QBs since they can get the ball there before the safety can make a play (this is something we just have to deal with though when we don't have good safety speed). Mainly, I wish we would play the 10 yard out tougher because I think there are too many Big XII QBs that can make that throw.

[soonerspudman]

yeah but that doesn't work if the guy running the ball runs a 4.8..you would hope your db could catch him:P

Personally I find football intelligence is the most important. Truthfully all the measurables is a good thing but the interview room has cost some of these guys thousands, some millions of dollars(Dan Cody for one). They chew you up and spit you out and if you can't handle it right, it doesn't bode well for you.

I m a nerd, but its one of my favorite parts of the combine to sit in.

I'm down with that, it wasn't lack of speed againstd WV that left a receiver 10 yards open in the end zone or the entire defense to over run a basic pitch sweep...

[goingoneight]

Speed doesn't mean a damn thing when Noel Devin and Pat White shake you right out of your shoes. Look at what DeMarco Murray did most of the time, he didn't plow over people, and no way was he as difficult to bring down as AD or AP, but with more carries and a little fine-tuning, everyone here agrees that he could be just as if not more dominant.

Granted, we don't need slow guys at OU, but worrying too much about recruiting and enhancing speed often gets you beat on technique and talent, which is what always seems to burn us. When we line up and punch them and hit them with what you got versus what we got, we usually dominate. However, quickness is different than speed. Many agree that Chase Daniel is twice the QB Pat White is, but PW made quick decisions and quick cuts which left him with a lot of running room.

It's sort of like looking at Joe Washington versus say... Billy Sims. BS put up outstanding numbers and was a great player, but which one do you count on more for making something out of nothing? Both had speed once they were in the open field, but Joe W. had the shiftiness and the quick acceleration. Billy had the five star vertical and the OMG 40 time, blah-blah-blah.

You can win with both types of athletes, it just depends on how the cards are dealt and what you do with them. The famous 2000 team didn't have OMG speed, but they read offenses correctly, mastered their angles and more importantly never gave up. You line the 2000 and 2007 team up and tell me in a team race which one makes the 40 first. It's not the 2000 team in terms of pure speed. One team is all speed and gawdy athleticism, one is all smarts with pretty decent speed.

[goingoneight]

I'm down with that, it wasn't lack of speed againstd WV that left a receiver 10 yards open in the end zone or the entire defense to over run a basic pitch sweep...

Correct, it was having three starters out, catching Walker on his worst game of the season and the fact that WVU couldn't throw for ****, but were running the ball with ease so we cheated up to stop them. If you can't make the throws PW made in that game, you don't belong in D-1 CFB. You especially don't belong in a BCS Bowl. PW may not be Sam Bradford, but he does throw the ball well.

We do something like that too. It's called play-action.

[Curly Bill]

There's speed and there's football speed, and they're not always the same thing.

[Crucifax Autumn]

I have to agree with a lot of what's been said...we need to abandon the soft zone, but with the current state of the Big 12 we need to run some sorta zone...and be prepared to go to man coverage in the games that call for it.

[DangTire]

Correct, it was having three starters out, catching Walker on his worst game of the season and the fact that WVU couldn't throw for ****, but were running the ball with ease so we cheated up to stop them. If you can't make the throws PW made in that game, you don't belong in D-1 CFB. You especially don't belong in a BCS Bowl. PW may not be Sam Bradford, but he does throw the ball well.

We do something like that too. It's called play-action.

Correction, it was a starter that instead of covering his pass first responsibility was more interested in watching PW run the football while having two defenders in his face as his responsibility ran right by him whispering see you later. That's what caused a wide open receiver in the end zone. And it's not the first time it's happened this year, CU anyone? It's also not the damn athletes or the scheme. It's the lack of even the most basic of fundamentals and an increasingly less focused defense that's causing problems.

[Dano7198]

Correction, it was a starter that instead of covering his pass first responsibility was more interested in watching PW run the football while having two defenders in his face as his responsibility ran right by him whispering see you later. That's what caused a wide open receiver in the end zone. And it's not the first time it's happened this year, CU anyone? It's also not the damn athletes or the scheme. It's the lack of even the most basic of fundamentals and an increasingly less focused defense that's causing problems.
BIG UPS !!! Couldnt agree with you more. The DL doesnt shed blocks, the blitz is telegraphed and we seldom EVER react to an audible. The defense called is the defense ran.. Im not saying we field a team of free lancers in the future, but I am saying the ability to realign and react to what we see develop is just as big an advantage as being able to audible under center. Couple smarts with fundamentals and we are solid.

[insuranceman_22]

There's speed and there's football speed, and they're not always the same thing.

Bingo

[Crucifax Autumn]

Yep...one of them is illegal and makes people put tin foil over their windows and the other one has to do with how fast a guy can run!