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Condescending Sooner
3/20/2008, 10:43 AM
But you also have to make an effort at understanding why the terrorists are doing what they're doing.

Trying to "understand" terrorists is a typical liberal response. While the US was trying to "understand" them, they just kept attacking us. They aren't interested in diplomacy and it is a huge waste of time.

C&CDean
3/20/2008, 10:44 AM
I'm not trying to defend them (but thanks for your Tuba-like assumption), I'm trying to point out that 09/11 didn't come about without reason. Now the justification the terrorists used isn't something most in the west agree with, however in their mind, there is a reason for what they're doing.

In John Wayne Gacy's mind there was a reason why he ****ed and strangled little boys. Does that make it OK?

JohnnyMack
3/20/2008, 10:51 AM
In John Wayne Gacy's mind there was a reason why he ****ed and strangled little boys. Does that make it OK?

I never said it was OK you illiterate schmuck.

JohnnyMack
3/20/2008, 10:52 AM
In John Wayne Gacy's mind there was a reason why he ****ed and strangled little boys. Does that make it OK?

And clowns are creepy. Who couldn't see that coming?

C&CDean
3/20/2008, 11:17 AM
I never said it was OK you illiterate schmuck.

Oh. Cause it sounded an awful lot like you were defending these scumballs - even though you were claiming you weren't you nasty beer drinking baffoon.

achiro
3/20/2008, 11:51 AM
Do you two need some alone time?:D

Vaevictis
3/20/2008, 12:39 PM
Trying to "understand" terrorists is a typical liberal response. While the US was trying to "understand" them, they just kept attacking us. They aren't interested in diplomacy and it is a huge waste of time.

I think Sun Tzu might have had something to say about that. Clausewitz too.

SCOUT
3/20/2008, 01:12 PM
I think Sun Tzu might have had something to say about that. Clausewitz too.

Sun Tzu was also referring to an enemy that engaged in traditional battlefield tactics. He was also referring to an enemy that had at least some semblance of hierarchy and presumably ambassadors.

Terrorist do not fit that mold.

I am not sure who Clausewitz is :O

mdklatt
3/20/2008, 01:21 PM
Do you two need some alone time?:D


At the next tailgate, if the RV is a-rockin'....

mdklatt
3/20/2008, 01:24 PM
Sun Tzu was also referring to an enemy that engaged in traditional battlefield tactics. He was also referring to an enemy that had at least some semblance of hierarchy and presumably ambassadors.

Terrorist do not fit that mold.


So then we don't need to understand anything about them in order to defeat them?

Here's at least one problem I see with the whack-a-mole approach to fighting terrorists: A good many of them want to die in glorious battle against the Great Satan. But hey, let's keep throwing Brer Rabbit back into the briar patch.

JohnnyMack
3/20/2008, 01:26 PM
At the next tailgate, if the RV is a-rockin'....

:bsmf:

SCOUT
3/20/2008, 01:42 PM
So then we don't need to understand anything about them in order to defeat them?

Here's at least one problem I see with the whack-a-mole approach to fighting terrorists: A good many of them want to die in glorious battle against the Great Satan. But hey, let's keep throwing Brer Rabbit back into the briar patch.

The fact that they want to die in glorious battle actually supports the idea that diplomacy is close to a fools errand. I was merely pointing out that Sun Tzu's Art of War would be at least difficult to apply to the enemy we are facing today.

How would you propose we understand the terrorists and use that information? From what I can see we understand them pretty well right now. They want to kill us.

Vaevictis
3/20/2008, 01:44 PM
Sun Tzu was also referring to an enemy that engaged in traditional battlefield tactics. He was also referring to an enemy that had at least some semblance of hierarchy and presumably ambassadors.

Sun Tzu's comment was something along the lines of: Know yourself, and win half your battles. Know your enemy and win half your battles. Know yourself and your enemies, and you'll win all your battles.


Terrorist do not fit that mold.

It applies to far more than simple traditional battlefields. There's a reason businessmen read Sun Tzu, for example.


I am not sure who Clausewitz is :O

Another guy who wrote an influential work on military theory. One of the quotes attributed to him goes along the lines of "War is just politics in another form." Alternatively stated as, "War is just vigorous diplomacy."

In short, my comment on diplomacy and our current situation: When you go to war, you want something from the other guy. If you're willing to pull out the ordnance and put the lives of your citizens on the line, why the hell WOUDLN'T you be willing to exercise diplomacy if it could help you get to where you want to be?

I'm not saying that we should send diplomats to Al-Qaeda -- mostly because I don't think they'll give us what we want (the heads of their leadership, their arms, etc). But if they were, why the hell not?

Vaevictis
3/20/2008, 01:46 PM
How would you propose we understand the terrorists and use that information? From what I can see we understand them pretty well right now. They want to kill us.

If you understand why they're fighting, you may be able to figure out why people sign up. Take those reasons out of the equation, and cut off their supply of recruits. Game over. We win. It's just a matter of waiting them out at that point.

Just one overly simplified example, but you get the idea.

C&CDean
3/20/2008, 02:01 PM
If you understand why they're fighting, you may be able to figure out why people sign up. Take those reasons out of the equation, and cut off their supply of recruits. Game over. We win. It's just a matter of waiting them out at that point.

Just one overly simplified example, but you get the idea.

You see, the big flaw in your deal here is that they don't sign up. They're born into it. They draw the hate from their mothers' placenta in the womb, they suck the hate from their mothers' tits, and then they're spoon fed the hate from their fathers' knees. By the time they're old enough to breed themselves, their brains are crispy little nuggets capable of knowing only one thing: hate. They hate the infidels. Period. End of discussion. Lights out. Stick a mother ****ing fork in it. Over. And. Out.

So, let's go try and reason with them.........yeah right. Like I said before, **** em'. Straight to hades.

Condescending Sooner
3/20/2008, 02:03 PM
I think Sun Tzu might have had something to say about that. Clausewitz too.


So how long do we try "understanding" before we fight back? How many attacks on our citizens and interests do we tolerate before we do anything?

JohnnyMack
3/20/2008, 02:03 PM
You see, the big flaw in your deal here is that they don't sign up. They're born into it. They draw the hate from their mothers' placenta in the womb, they suck the hate from their mothers' tits, and then they're spoon fed the hate from their fathers' knees. By the time they're old enough to breed themselves, their brains are crispy little nuggets capable of knowing only one thing: hate. They hate the infidels. Period. End of discussion. Lights out. Stick a mother ****ing fork in it. Over. And. Out.

So, let's go try and reason with them.........yeah right. Like I said before, **** em'. Straight to hades.

Are you talking about osu fan?

SCOUT
3/20/2008, 02:08 PM
Sun Tzu's comment was something along the lines of: Know yourself, and win half your battles. Know your enemy and win half your battles. Know yourself and your enemies, and you'll win all your battles.
Agreed:
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.


It applies to far more than simple traditional battlefields. There's a reason businessmen read Sun Tzu, for example.
It is used in business because war is a metaphor for business. Terrorism and that type of tactic is another matter. I recognize that it can have some relevance but on the whole it doesn't really fit the circumstances with the terrorists.


In short, my comment on diplomacy and our current situation: When you go to war, you want something from the other guy. If you're willing to pull out the ordnance and put the lives of your citizens on the line, why the hell WOUDLN'T you be willing to exercise diplomacy if it could help you get to where you want to be?

I'm not saying that we should send diplomats to Al-Qaeda -- mostly because I don't think they'll give us what we want (the heads of their leadership, their arms, etc). But if they were, why the hell not?
We want them to stop attacking us and innocent people. I would be extremely happy if we could meet with the President or Secretary of State to find an agreement but that just isn't possible here.

We know what they want. They want to kill the infidels. Not much room for diplomacy there.

Thanks for the information on Clausewitz. I am going to have to read some of his work.

Vaevictis
3/20/2008, 02:08 PM
So how long do we try "understanding" before we fight back? How many attacks on our citizens and interests do we tolerate before we do anything?

The thing YOU'RE not "understanding" is that understanding your enemy and going medieval on their asses are not mutually exclusive.

Vaevictis
3/20/2008, 02:13 PM
We want them to stop attacking us and innocent people. I would be extremely happy if we could meet with the President or Secretary of State to find an agreement but that just isn't possible here.

We know what they want. They want to kill the infidels. Not much room for diplomacy there.

My issue isn't with the notion that diplomacy may be pointless in this case. But there's a lot of folks out there who scoff at it just on principle, or at least make comments that imply it. That's what I take issue with -- as I said, if you're willing put your citizens in harms way, I think you might as well be willing to send someone over to talk to see if you can get what you want without putting anyone in harms way.

It's a general principle here; I'm not really arguing that it would work with Al-Qaeda.

(I still maintain that understanding them is important, for various other reasons.)

C&CDean
3/20/2008, 02:16 PM
Are you talking about osu fan?

The similarities are scary.

mdklatt
3/20/2008, 02:17 PM
How would you propose we understand the terrorists and use that information? From what I can see we understand them pretty well right now. They want to kill us.

Well, for on thing, if we'd understood that getting rid of Saddam would have turned Iraq into a terrorist playground would we have done it? All we did was open up a second front in the terror war. Now we're spread so thin that Afghanistan is going downhill again.

JohnnyMack
3/20/2008, 02:19 PM
We know what they want. They want to kill the infidels. Not much room for diplomacy there.

I'm not trying to be a jerk but "They want to kill the infidels" is kind of wrong. They want us out of Saudi Arabia. They want us out of the Middle East in general. They want us to stop supporting Israel.

These people aren't Orcs from Mordor ravaging across the plains, in their mind they are defending their home and holy land.


For :dean:: The above post is in no way an endorsement of Al Qaeda and the belief system which they subscribe to.

shaun4411
3/20/2008, 02:20 PM
here is the problem:

to them, its a religious thing. they are fighting the infidels (the jews, the christians, westerners in general (especially those evil baby killing americans). and they recruit from early childhood. they are raised to hate, they are brainwashed. they watch jerry springer and think every american is like that. they fight our soldiers with fear and hatred because they (some) were taught that in order to be a soldier in the usa, you must kill a baby. they believe their retribution is going to heaven for doing gods work of killing infidels. convert or die, that is it. plain and simple. and in some cases, its convert AND die. the wahabists want us to go back to the 8th century. they believe they are right, we are wrong, and we are going to hell and it's their job to get us there.

they are so backwards that they even kill eachother. they strap bombs to retarded women and blow up crowded markets with women and children; not necessarily attacks against westerners or our soldiers. they are unlawful combatants (dont wear uniforms, dont quarter prisoners, hide behind civilians and mosques when in a firefight, they pretend to be dead and shoot our soldiers who are "supposed" to take prisoners instead of putting two in their heads).

there is nothing conventional about them, and we are expected to act conventionally towards them? they dont understand or respect anything but the same brutality they offer us. when they kidnap/capture any westerner (not just a soldier) they plan to cut off his head or just shoot him and do it on tape while praising allah. if allah were real, would he really want that? not according to the good muslims. these people arent even muslims, theyre bad examples of their religion. they know one thing, and its hatred towards us. and this wont end. it wont end until we or they are all dead. theyre worse than the japenese in ww2; they will fight to the very last worthless cretant. they think what theyre doing is right, and they truly believe they'll be infinitely rewarded in the afterlife for it. you cant negotiate with that. there is evidence throughout history of people fighting on the convictions of a religious belief, and being more than happy to die for their cause. and even going as far as to welcome it.

that is our problem. that is our enemy. how do YOU propose to fight it?

C&CDean
3/20/2008, 02:22 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk but "They want to kill the infidels" is kind of wrong. They want us out of Saudi Arabia. They want us out of the Middle East in general. They want us to stop supporting Israel.

These people aren't Orcs from Mordor ravaging across the plains, in their mind they are defending their home and holy land.


For :dean:: The above post is in no way an endorsement of Al Qaeda and the belief system which they subscribe to.


So, in your world do you believe that if we pulled completely out of the ME, blew off Israel, etc. that they'd just leave us all alone and let us live happily EA?

mdklatt
3/20/2008, 02:25 PM
they are raised to hate, they are brainwashed.

All of the 9/11 hijackers, at least the pilots, didn't "convert" until they were in their 20s. Mohammed Atta was in graduate school in Germany, and started hanging out a radical mosque. He wasn't raised that way.

C&CDean
3/20/2008, 02:26 PM
All of the 9/11 hijackers, at least the pilots, didn't "convert" until they were in their 20s. Mohammed Atta was in graduate school in Germany, and started hanging out a radical mosque. He wasn't raised that way.

So, you're saying he didn't turn muslim until his 20's?

mdklatt
3/20/2008, 02:29 PM
So, you're saying he didn't turn muslim until his 20's?

If every Muslim is a suicide bomber then every Christian is Fred Phelps.

SCOUT
3/20/2008, 02:30 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk but "They want to kill the infidels" is kind of wrong. They want us out of Saudi Arabia. They want us out of the Middle East in general. They want us to stop supporting Israel.

These people aren't Orcs from Mordor ravaging across the plains, in their mind they are defending their home and holy land.


For :dean:: The above post is in no way an endorsement of Al Qaeda and the belief system which they subscribe to.

I don't think you are being a jerk at all. I am sure there are people taking up arms who only want us out of the Middle East. I am equally sure there are people who want "Death to America" and to kill the infidels. I have seen many examples of rhetoric showing that is their goal.

Before someone tries to expand my intent, I am referring to the extremists and not the Middle East, or Muslims, in general

shaun4411
3/20/2008, 02:32 PM
All of the 9/11 hijackers, at least the pilots, didn't "convert" until they were in their 20s. Mohammed Atta was in graduate school in Germany, and started hanging out a radical mosque. He wasn't raised that way.

obviously they all werent. but newly converted and radicalized people can be more dangerous than those who grew up with it because they more value the change, and want to do something drastic. thats why you convert.

but regardless of when the transformation takes place, theyve been exposed to it. they understand it. its like being a white kid in the 50's and knowing two dozen racists. doesnt mean you echo the sentiment, but youre well aware of it, and are influenced by the actions and thoughts people take. and all it takes is one smooth talking person to make you see things his way.

the rest of them are exposed/brainwashed to this way of life from a young age. they live with radicals who speak this rhetoric all day long. their familes are paid to give their children away. groomed to be a soldier or a brain. (suicide bomber/martyr, or go to school and learn something and use that against us. many of them are western educated. crazy doesnt mean stupid)

Condescending Sooner
3/20/2008, 02:32 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk but "They want to kill the infidels" is kind of wrong. They want us out of Saudi Arabia. They want us out of the Middle East in general. They want us to stop supporting Israel.

These people aren't Orcs from Mordor ravaging across the plains, in their mind they are defending their home and holy land.


For :dean:: The above post is in no way an endorsement of Al Qaeda and the belief system which they subscribe to.

You really believe this?

C&CDean
3/20/2008, 02:37 PM
If every Muslim is a suicide bomber then every Christian is Fred Phelps.

Meh.

Where you're completely missing reality here is that every muslim IS potentially a suicide bomber. Denying it doesn't make it so.

How many "christians" do you see dancing in the street supporting a Fred Phelps rally? That's what I thought. NONE.

You're way too smart to use stupid arguments like this to support your foundationless assertion that christians = muslims.

JohnnyMack
3/20/2008, 02:53 PM
So, in your world do you believe that if we pulled completely out of the ME, blew off Israel, etc. that they'd just leave us all alone and let us live happily EA?

Yes. I believe they would. I will say that I think the U.S. having 0 presence in the Middle East is about as likely to happen as you taking a bubble bath with SicEm. Our economy is a slave to OPEC. I think we get something like 40% of our oil from OPEC countries. So to simply walk away from that in and of itself just ain't happening. We don't have the infrastructure necessary to produce enough gas in house to meet our needs. We'd be paying $15 a gallon and have mile long gas lines. As great as it sounds conceptually to just walk away and say, "**** you OPEC, we don't need **** from you", the truth is we do. This goes back to a short term solution (it's easier to buy oil from OPEC than it is to get it out of the ground and refine it ourself) leading to an unintended consequence (Al Qaeda wanting us off their sand).

We wouldn't walk away from Israel either. Too many powerful people associated with Israel are far too ingrained in the fabric of political machine to allow that to happen. Now we've done a good job of avoiding having boots in the sand in that region, but last I checked the Israeli Air Force is still flying F-15s.

It would also mean abandoning our mission in Afghanistan, which I'm strongly opposed to.

So what Al Qaeda wants and what the U.S. wants (needs) are too conflicted for their to be any sort of extraction on part of our interests and troops in the region. Which leaves with the option of continuing with the status quo, the U.S. turning the entire region into a sheet of glass and finally attempting some sort of negotiated peace.

achiro
3/20/2008, 03:14 PM
Yes. I believe they would.

Really? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! WOW!



























































WOW!

achiro
3/20/2008, 03:14 PM
WOW!

shaun4411
3/20/2008, 03:15 PM
Yes. I believe they would. I will say that I think the U.S. having 0 presence in the Middle East is about as likely to happen as you taking a bubble bath with SicEm. Our economy is a slave to OPEC. I think we get something like 40% of our oil from OPEC countries. So to simply walk away from that in and of itself just ain't happening. We don't have the infrastructure necessary to produce enough gas in house to meet our needs. We'd be paying $15 a gallon and have mile long gas lines. As great as it sounds conceptually to just walk away and say, "**** you OPEC, we don't need **** from you", the truth is we do. This goes back to a short term solution (it's easier to buy oil from OPEC than it is to get it out of the ground and refine it ourself) leading to an unintended consequence (Al Qaeda wanting us off their sand).

We wouldn't walk away from Israel either. Too many powerful people associated with Israel are far too ingrained in the fabric of political machine to allow that to happen. Now we've done a good job of avoiding having boots in the sand in that region, but last I checked the Israeli Air Force is still flying F-15s.

It would also mean abandoning our mission in Afghanistan, which I'm strongly opposed to.

So what Al Qaeda wants and what the U.S. wants (needs) are too conflicted for their to be any sort of extraction on part of our interests and troops in the region. Which leaves with the option of continuing with the status quo, the U.S. turning the entire region into a sheet of glass and finally attempting some sort of negotiated peace.

no offense, but if what your first sentence says is how you feel, then you dont know much about them. they dont just dislike our presense there (which is a necessity by the way), but they also dislike our way of life and actually go out of their way to attack us. their intentions arent to leave us alone if we leave them alone. that isnt their thought process. they want to ride of us on this earth. and their actions prove that.

if we wanted more oil, we could drill in alaska. the libs dont like that idea. the caribou .... ohhh the caribou!! aslaska only has 500,000 square miles, there isnt much rooom for the poor caribou if we drill on a couple thousand mile area where few live. ohhh the caribou!

by the way, it isnt alqaeda's sand. the governments of afghanistan, iraq, and saudi arabia openly accept our presense because our actions have positive effects for their governments as well. (fighting the taliban and insurgents in afghanistan and iraq. and oil in saudi)

israeli airforce has our f15's. but so does the AF of saudi arabia. just last yaer we sold more than a dozen to them. and we're selling more this summer.

you cant negotiate peace with them. they arent interested. remember, they want those virgins. peace isnt an option. convert or die remember?

JohnnyMack
3/20/2008, 03:16 PM
Thank you! I'll be here all week. Try the fish. Tip your waitress.

JohnnyMack
3/20/2008, 03:19 PM
if we wanted more oil, we could drill in alaska. the libs dont like that idea. the caribou .... ohhh the caribou!! aslaska only has 500,000 square miles, there isnt much rooom for the poor caribou if we drill on a couple thousand mile area where few live. ohhh the caribou!

Have you asked yourself why we don't drill more oil? Why we don't build more refineries?


by the way, it isnt alqaeda's sand. the governments of......iraq,......openly accept our presense because our actions have positive effects for their governments as well.

:rolleyes:

Civicus_Sooner
3/20/2008, 03:20 PM
Thank you! I'll be here all week. Try the fish. Tip your waitress.

Pitty spek. You gave it your best shot but I think you lost this argument. And it wasn't pretty either.

;)

Civicus_Sooner
3/20/2008, 03:21 PM
Have you asked yourself why we don't drill more oil? Why we don't build more refineries?



:rolleyes:Eh, we would if the Dems would get the eff out of the way. Nuclear power plants too.

shaun4411
3/20/2008, 03:24 PM
Have you asked yourself why we don't drill more oil? Why we don't build more refineries?



:rolleyes:

the libs. why else? we could drill in alaska and have more than we know what to do with. but the caribou. they need a place to live and they must live there.

Scott D
3/20/2008, 05:36 PM
Meh.

Where you're completely missing reality here is that every muslim IS potentially a suicide bomber. Denying it doesn't make it so.

How many "christians" do you see dancing in the street supporting a Fred Phelps rally? That's what I thought. NONE.

You're way too smart to use stupid arguments like this to support your foundationless assertion that christians = muslims.

Every human is potentially a psychopathic killer. Denying it doesn't make it so.

The problem is that everyone finds it too tidy and convenient to wrap everything in a little bow by implying that radicalism in any form is more than just a small portion of any population. Certainly you can't judge Ireland by the radicals in the IRA etc. One shouldn't judge the United States by radical groups like the envirofreaks that burned down 5 so called 'Green' houses in the Seattle area for not 'being green enough'.

Besides, to our media Fred Phelps is old news, so old that he doesn't get much if any coverage anymore. AQ and stuff overseas is their shiny new toy to gawk at for now.

Vaevictis
3/20/2008, 06:20 PM
The problem is that everyone finds it too tidy and convenient to wrap everything in a little bow by implying that radicalism in any form is more than just a small portion of any population.

It's deliberate. I've heard Dean's little screed before, and seen it on old propaganda, talking about how the 'nips and the 'krauts and the ******s and the mics are this that and the other, and how they're that way because they're raised on it or born to it or whatever.

It's never that way in reality, but it's convenient for mobilizing the populace and the military.

Scott D
3/20/2008, 06:53 PM
It's deliberate. I've heard Dean's little screed before, and seen it on old propaganda, talking about how the 'nips and the 'krauts and the ******s and the mics are this that and the other, and how they're that way because they're raised on it or born to it or whatever.

It's never that way in reality, but it's convenient for mobilizing the populace and the military.

Oh I know, it's Dean being Dean.

def_lazer_fc
3/20/2008, 07:33 PM
after reading these threads, "radicalized" has become my new favorite word.

shaun4411
3/20/2008, 09:22 PM
after reading these threads, "radicalized" has become my new favorite word.

really? i was pretty enamoured with islamofascists myself when it first came out. i coined an acronym that never caught on SNIF Shadowy Network of Islamic Fascists.. bunch of radical SNIFS is all they are.

SCOUT
3/20/2008, 09:51 PM
Every human is potentially a psychopathic killer. Denying it doesn't make it so.

The problem is that everyone finds it too tidy and convenient to wrap everything in a little bow by implying that radicalism in any form is more than just a small portion of any population. Certainly you can't judge Ireland by the radicals in the IRA etc. One shouldn't judge the United States by radical groups like the envirofreaks that burned down 5 so called 'Green' houses in the Seattle area for not 'being green enough'.

Besides, to our media Fred Phelps is old news, so old that he doesn't get much if any coverage anymore. AQ and stuff overseas is their shiny new toy to gawk at for now.
Every human is capable of being a psychopathic killer, I agree.

The issue is that sometimes groups do fit into tidy and convenient wraps. Ireland had its share of public disdain from the world because of the violence of those few. They also have reached a peace accord. Those radical groups should receive more disdain but they are certainly not encouraged here. There scale of violence makes it hard to categorize against the other examples.

The terrorists get negative messages from the west but supportive ones from the Middle East. Even when there are condemnations from that region, they are often qualified in some way.

Fred Phelps is old news because he is the leader of a church that pretty much consists of his family. He didn't deserve the fifteen minutes of fame he has already received.

OklahomaRed
3/21/2008, 08:48 AM
Every human is potentially a psychopathic killer. Denying it doesn't make it so.

The problem is that everyone finds it too tidy and convenient to wrap everything in a little bow by implying that radicalism in any form is more than just a small portion of any population. Certainly you can't judge Ireland by the radicals in the IRA etc. One shouldn't judge the United States by radical groups like the envirofreaks that burned down 5 so called 'Green' houses in the Seattle area for not 'being green enough'.

Besides, to our media Fred Phelps is old news, so old that he doesn't get much if any coverage anymore. AQ and stuff overseas is their shiny new toy to gawk at for now.

Nice try generalizing. It's a great debate move; however, you missed Dean's orginal point. The point is that you do not see Christians dancing in the street when people are killed in a suicide attack. You don't hear Christians say that if you can't convert them, then they have to pay homage or die, or if they don't pay homage then you can cut their heads off and you get a prize in heaven for ridding the world of another infidel. That's the difference. Yes, there are moderate muslims; however, where are they in pushing down the radicals and their onward onslaught against the west? Where are they in setting up muslim based governments that are not supporting the radicals? They're afraid just like everyone else is afraid, thus forcing them to avoid the issue and state that if we meet their demands, if we go away, if we don't resist, then they will leave us alone. That kind of thinking will turn us into a second rate power very fast (i.e. France) and will also set us up for failure in the long run. :cool:

C&CDean
3/21/2008, 09:23 AM
It's deliberate. I've heard Dean's little screed before, and seen it on old propaganda, talking about how the 'nips and the 'krauts and the ******s and the mics are this that and the other, and how they're that way because they're raised on it or born to it or whatever.

It's never that way in reality, but it's convenient for mobilizing the populace and the military.


So, you've seen my "screed" before huh? You ain't seen **** homeslice.

You, lumping muslims - which is a RELIGION in with all the other ETHNIC groups is a very convenient way for you to puss out of a debate. You've never heard me say "krauts, nips, ******s, or mics. Ever.

Yes, it's very clear that I don't trust me a muslim as far as I can throw him. Yes, it's very clear why I don't trust them. They repeatedly prove my point of view to be the correct one. Do I hate all muslims? Of course not. Do I trust them? Oh hell no.

You and Scott can flap your lips all day long on this one. I rarely turn on the tube or pick up a paper and don't see "suicide bomber kills ......... innocent people."

Thousands and thousands of muslims lining up to get their ticket punched to the great mosque in the sky. Loving every minute of it. Millions of muslims standing behind them endorsing/cheerleading/helping them complete their wonderful journey to allah's right hand. This isn't Dean's opinion. This isn't Dean's "screed." This is fact.

So, keep your backasswards attempts at calling me a racist to your own damn self. What I am is a realist. Every single day - I said EVERY SINGLE DAY - another muslim or 20 kills scores of innocent people while the other ones sit back and celebrate or say nothing.

Like I said, **** em'. Start acting like humans and maybe my opinion will change.

OklahomaTuba
3/21/2008, 09:38 AM
no offense, but if what your first sentence says is how you feel, then you dont know much about them. they dont just dislike our presense there (which is a necessity by the way), but they also dislike our way of life and actually go out of their way to attack us. their intentions arent to leave us alone if we leave them alone. that isnt their thought process. they want to ride of us on this earth. and their actions prove that.

if we wanted more oil, we could drill in alaska. the libs dont like that idea. the caribou .... ohhh the caribou!! aslaska only has 500,000 square miles, there isnt much rooom for the poor caribou if we drill on a couple thousand mile area where few live. ohhh the caribou!

by the way, it isnt alqaeda's sand. the governments of afghanistan, iraq, and saudi arabia openly accept our presense because our actions have positive effects for their governments as well. (fighting the taliban and insurgents in afghanistan and iraq. and oil in saudi)

israeli airforce has our f15's. but so does the AF of saudi arabia. just last yaer we sold more than a dozen to them. and we're selling more this summer.

you cant negotiate peace with them. they arent interested. remember, they want those virgins. peace isnt an option. convert or die remember?

Don't bother trying to tell a lib the reality of the situation. They don't care, unless it involves blaming the USA, the white debil, the Joos, those evil Christians, etc.

The fact that someone is dumb enough to think that if we left the sands of western asia and isolated ourselves from our economic and political interests we would be safe from islamic terrorism is simply laughable.

JohnnyMack
3/21/2008, 09:50 AM
The fact that someone is dumb enough to think that if we left the sands of western asia and isolated ourselves from our economic and political interests we would be safe from islamic terrorism is simply laughable.


Security is an important pillar of human life. Free people do not relinquish their security. This is contrary to Bush's claim that we hate freedom.

Let him tell us why we did not strike Sweden, for example. It is known that those who hate freedom do not have proud souls, like the souls of the 19 people, may God have mercy on them.

We fought you because we are free and do not accept injustice. We want to restore freedom to our nation. Just as you waste our security, we will waste your security. - OBL

So why aren't they at war with Sweden?

def_lazer_fc
3/21/2008, 01:38 PM
b/c swedish chicks are hot hot hot. and thats something that even a terrorist can appreciate.

shaun4411
3/21/2008, 01:41 PM
b/c swedish chicks are hot hot hot. and thats something that even a terrorist can appreciate.

not all swedish chicks are hot. i spent a week in copenhagen last year, and took a day trip to malmo, sweden and ate lunch and walked around. it was kinda cool, and the swedes have a neat accent. but man, the women arent all supermodels. one of them, blonde, blue eyes, had a nice huge mole on her cheek and i think it had a hair on it. it was too disturbing to look at. you know when you see something disturbing, and you cant help but to stare at it? well, this was beyond that and i couldnt really bear to look at it. i named it george.

Vaevictis
3/21/2008, 02:06 PM
So, you've seen my "screed" before huh? You ain't seen **** homeslice.

You, lumping muslims - which is a RELIGION in with all the other ETHNIC groups is a very convenient way for you to puss out of a debate. You've never heard me say "krauts, nips, ******s, or mics. Ever.

No, you haven't said those words. But your screed is the same, just a different group. And if you take issue with my using ethnic groups, I've seen the same trash in reference to Catholics and Protestants and Muslims too. And various "heathen" religions too.

Your little rant is the same rant folks have used through the centuries to justify horrible, horrible things. You may not say 'krauts, 'nips, ******s, mics, reds, slant-eyes, Catholics, Protestants, ragheads, whatever -- but someone somewhere sometime has, with much the same little screed you spit out earlier.

So yeah, I've seen it before. Maybe not off of your lips (or posts, in this case), but anytime any group has tried to justify their inhuman behavior towards other people, I've seen it.


So, keep your backasswards attempts at calling me a racist to your own damn self. What I am is a realist. Every single day - I said EVERY SINGLE DAY - another muslim or 20 kills scores of innocent people while the other ones sit back and celebrate or say nothing.

If I was trying to call you a racist, I'd come out and say it. I have no problems with calling a spade a spade. Here's the thing: I don't consider your "screed" to be racist. Oh, yes, it has racist elements, and if someone wanted to, they could call you that. They'd be missing something though.

It's not rooted in racism. Like I've said -- I've seen it before, every time someone has tried to justify inhuman behavior towards other people. The Nazis, the Soviets. Our own War Department in WWII, and our own forefathers in their treatment of the Native Americans and Africans. One African tribe against another. The Japanese against every 'gaijin' they come across. The Catholics and the Protestants and the Muslims for centuries and centuries. Rome and Carthage. Probably Pharoah, too.

It's a grand human tradition to demonize other humans so that we can feel better about ourselves when we do terrible things to them, and yeah, we'll use racism to that end, but it ain't rooted in racism.

So no, I'm not trying to call you racist. I'm just pointing out that your little screed is how humanity has justified its worst behavior throughout all of history.

JohnnyMack
3/21/2008, 09:41 PM
Here's a quote from Rev. Wright's sermon. This includes the, "God damn America" line. I would like to ask my Christian brothers and sisters on this site to review it and tell me what it is you disagree with.

Thanks.


“And the United States of America government, when it came to treating her citizens of Indian descent, she failed. She put them on reservations.”

“When it came to putting her citizens of Japanese descent fairly, she failed. She put them in interment prison camps.”

“When it came to putting the citizens of African descent fairly, America failed. She put them in chains. The government put them on slave quarters. Put them on auction blocks. Put them in cotton fields. Put them in inferior schools. Put them in substandard housing. Put them scientific experiments. Put them in the lower paying jobs. Put them outside the equal protection of the law. Kept them out of their racist bastions of higher education, and locked them into positions of hopelessness and helplessness.”

“The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three strike law and then wants us to sing God Bless America. Naw, naw, naw. Not God Bless America. God Damn America! That’s in the Bible. For killing innocent people. God Damn America for treating us citizens as less than human. God Damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and she is Supreme.”

“The United States government has failed the vast majority of her citizens of African descent. Think about this. Think about this. For every one Oprah, a billionaire, you’ve got 5 million blacks that are out of work. For every one Colin Powell, a millionaire, you’ve got 10 million blacks who cannot read. For every one Condi-Skeezer Rice, you’ve got 1 million in prison. For every one Tiger Woods, who needs to get beat at the Masters, with his Cablanasian hips, playing on a course that discriminates against women, God has this way of brining you up short when you get to big for your Cablanasian britches. For every one Tiger Woods, we’ve got 10,000 black kids who will never see a golf course. The United States government has failed the vast majority of her citizens of African descent.”

“Tell your neighbor he’s (going to) help us one last time. Turn back and say forgive him for the God Damn, that’s in the Bible though. Blessings and curses is in the Bible. It’s in the Bible.

“Where government fail, God never fails. When God says it, it’s done. God never fails. When God wills it, you better get out the way, cause God never fails. When God fixes it, oh believe me it’s fixed. God never fails. Somebody right now, you think you can’t make it, but I want you to know that you are more than a conqueror through Christ. You can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.”

Jerk
3/21/2008, 10:18 PM
Here's a quote from Rev. Wright's sermon. This includes the, "God damn America" line. I would like to ask my Christian brothers and sisters on this site to review it and tell me what it is you disagree with.

Thanks.

What's wrong with it? I think he hates his own country. Why not post the sermon where Rev. Wright says the government created AIDS to destroy black people? Can we talk about that one?


Can I play, too? What's wrong with this:

For 20 YEARS Obama was an active member and close associate of this "Black Theology" Church founded on the ideas of James Cone - founded on THESE ideas:


"Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community. Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love."

~ James Cone, quoted in Divine Racism: The Unacknowledged Threshold Issue for Black Theology, by William R. Jones in African-American Religious Thought: An Anthology, edited by Cornel West and Eddie Glaube (Westminster John Knox Press).

And here's even more goodness and love from the Founder of Obama's "Black Theology" Religion, James Cone:

"For white people, God's reconciliation in Jesus Christ means that God has made black people a beautiful people; and if they are going to be in relationship with God, they must enter by means of their black brothers, who are a manifestation of God's presence on earth.
The assumption that one can know God without knowing blackness is the basic heresy of the white churches. They want God without blackness, Christ without obedience, love without death. What they fail to realize is that in Amereica, God's revelation on earth has always been black, red, or some other shocking shade, but never white.
Whiteness, as revealed in the history of America, is the expression of what is wrong with man. It is a symbol of man's depravity. God cannot be white even though white churches have portrayed him as white.
When we look at what whiteness has done to the minds of men in this country, we can see clearly what the New Testament meant when it spoke of the principalities and powers. To speak of Satan and his powers becomes not just a way of speaking but a fact of reality. When we can see a people who are controlled by an ideology of whiteness, then we know what reconciliation must mean.
The coming of Christ means a denial of what we thought we were. It means destroying the white devil in us. Reconciliation to God means that white people are prepared to deny themselves (whiteness), take up the cross (blackness) and follow Christ (black ghetto)."

~ James Cone, from Black Theology and Black Power, quoted in The Decline of African American Theology: From Biblical Faith to Cultural Captivity by Thabiti M. Anyabwile (Orbis), page 150.

THAT is the foundational doctrine of Obama's "Black Theology" Church.

Obama is a very quiet - yet very devoted adherent and follower of the most vile, bigotted hate-spewing radical racist GARBAGE of the lowest possible level. This guy needs to be exposed for what he and his wife really are - they believe in the HATRED of whites down to the very essence of their "religion".

ps- your canidate is unelectable now. But I'm sure the enlightened and reasonable here will still choose the Hildabeast over a true moderate like McCain, that is, if your party is smart enough to nominate her.

MojoRisen
3/22/2008, 12:34 PM
They used to call me White Jesus on the playgrounds of Chicago! I had some hops!

Not for nothing but, I really dislike to see so much politics in a so called Christain Sermon. I belonged to a Church in Cincinatti and it was Catholic and also very diverse. The black community in Cincinnatti I doubt would be ranting about white devil etc.

That same Catholic church was very instrumental in educational programs, finance management services and counseling. They did not ask for a dime and raised all the money in these programs- cleaned up one of the most crack riddled neighborhoods I have ever seen in about 10 years.

Same Cincinnati that had race riots - I grew up White in this neighborhood and 90% of my friends were in deed black. We lived in that shiate - non of us blame the other - but most of us did have a dislike for a lot of the white police- shoot first practices.

We were all involved in making sure some of those Socialist Left wingers were ousted from office - Joe Deters, Heimlich - those guys who prosecuted Larry Flint...

Race discrimination and Christianity- do not mix with me at all personally... They are not relevant to our respect & worship of god or Jesus Christ and our beliefs. It's not relevant

That church is for black power - calling it Christianity in any form is backwards...

mdklatt
3/22/2008, 12:48 PM
What's wrong with it? I think he hates his own country.

Which of the accusations he makes is untrue? I don't think there's a government conspiracy to keep black people down (anymore), but what about the rest of it? Slavery, internment camps for the Japanese, scientific experiments, discrimination. Hell, we were only one step ahead of South Africa in giving blacks equal rights.

SoonerBorn68
3/22/2008, 12:59 PM
Maybe Pastor Wright should leave the country. We, as a country, are the scurge of the Earth.

We've only saved the world twice last century, sent trillions of dollars world wide to help the helpless, sent troops abroad to protect innocent people, etc, etc., etc.

I say REVOLUTION! Split the country up into pieces and let each separate group set up their own form of government. Then, those who practice the Second Amendment can reclaim and reunite the country. :rolleyes:

This whole argument is inane. Some dip**** has a right to say what he said and said it. Obama is going to be a victim of the First Amendment.

JohnnyMack
3/22/2008, 01:06 PM
Maybe Pastor Wright should leave the country. We, as a country, are the scurge of the Earth.

We've only saved the world twice last century, sent trillions of dollars world wide to help the helpless, sent troops abroad to protect innocent people, etc, etc., etc.

I say REVOLUTION! Split the country up into pieces and let each separate group set up their own form of government. Then, those who practice the Second Amendment can reclaim and reunite the country. :rolleyes:

This whole argument is inane. Some dip**** has a right to say what he said and said it. Obama is going to be a victim of the First Amendment.

Thanks for not being overly dramatic. :rolleyes:

I just think that we as a society (and this is probably true in most cultures) have a tough time addressing our short comings and failures. When someone comes out (and in Rev. Wrights case does it in a overly dramatic fashion) and calls the U.S. out on its shortcomings it's quickly spun by the mainstream that he's a radical. Maybe the way he said it was radical, but what he said certainly wasn't.

SoonerBorn68
3/22/2008, 01:11 PM
You guys crack me up. The Hate America gang strikes again.

SoonerBorn68
3/22/2008, 01:14 PM
Wright is a hater. Admit it. He's no better than the Imperial Grand Wizard, or whatever they call the KKK big boy.

MojoRisen
3/22/2008, 01:18 PM
I really don't care what he says, I would just prefer he did it in a diferent forum as apposed to hiding behind christianity for people who are looking for that kind of leadership.

He might get me whacked for being christian - then what bear arms...

I don't mix my Porn and Jesus- I try not to mix my politics and Jesus as well, especially if it involves race discrimination or promotion.

There is a lot of injustice in the world - better free than speaking German or Japaneese. To involve Christianity in that is dangerous ..... we may have to go whoop some muslim arse.... and hope for an apology later.

Our short comings in those half truths are also now our biggest weakness - so to continue to act like we are not united in this America is still more dangerous for those of us who are now going to be leading it.

SoonerBorn68
3/22/2008, 01:22 PM
Exactly mojo. Good post.

Jerk
3/22/2008, 02:49 PM
Which of the accusations he makes is untrue? I don't think there's a government conspiracy to keep black people down (anymore), but what about the rest of it? Slavery, internment camps for the Japanese, scientific experiments, discrimination. Hell, we were only one step ahead of South Africa in giving blacks equal rights.

Name one sinless nation or culture. Ask the Koreans and the Chinese how they were treated during Japanese occupation.

Slavery ended 145 years ago after a bloody civil war. It's not an issue today unless we're talking about reparations.

About the accusations, how 'bout the one where he accuses the U.S. Gov't of creating AID's to destroy black people?

And despite all of our past sins, I don't think we deserved 911. i.e., "Chickens coming home to roost."

I don't understand the rational behind defending Rev Wright. Are you defending what he said or why he said it?

JohnnyMack
3/22/2008, 02:58 PM
And despite all of our past sins, I don't think we deserved 911. i.e., "Chickens coming home to roost."


Jerk,

Wasn't it former Reagan diplomat Edward Peck who coined that term in regards to 09/11?

Ike
3/22/2008, 03:41 PM
Jerk,

Wasn't it former Reagan diplomat Edward Peck who coined that term in regards to 09/11?

I read something somewhere that claimed that at least one of his vitriolic sermons thats being played and replayed (I haven't actually listenend to any of them) that he was actually quoting Peck, and said so towards the end of his rant.

Widescreen
3/22/2008, 04:09 PM
I read something somewhere that claimed that at least one of his vitriolic sermons thats being played and replayed (I haven't actually listenend to any of them) that he was actually quoting Peck, and said so towards the end of his rant.

If that's the case, then Wright and Peck are both wrong.

MojoRisen
3/22/2008, 04:27 PM
Is Obama Muslim or Christian? Or Neither? Meh he definitely clearly believes himself to be black to even gain memership at that Church.

let's face it- Obama is probably niether - mostly just wanted to get a better understanding of the black community in total for his own political gain.

He has no real stance on the Iraq war because he wasn't senior enough to even attend the security briefings at the time.

Homie is talking about White this and White that- and black this and black that. Man I was born on the South Side - Wright is no diferent than any of the other Black Promoters- he should leave christianity out of it- especially if he thinks that 45 years of it is long enough to justify it.

Times change quicker these days - and that dude is a Bigot - through and through- but hey....

http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv

Big Red Ron
4/20/2008, 04:56 PM
Since Obama is half white and chose a racist black church to be affiliated with, I have a question. What if he had chosen a racist white church and decided to run for Prez. Would he even be in the conversation right now?

Why is it politically correct to be a black racist and not a white racist?

OklahomaRed
4/21/2008, 02:59 PM
Here's a quote from Rev. Wright's sermon. This includes the, "God damn America" line. I would like to ask my Christian brothers and sisters on this site to review it and tell me what it is you disagree with.

Thanks.

Are you kidding me? What do I disagree with? The government gives them drugs? I tell you who fails anyone......... Themselves. They only have themselves to blame. That's the fundamental difference between a Lib and a Conservative. A Liberal sits around and bitches about their situations, their past, and their circumstance and wails for someone to come wipe their *** for them. I can promise you coming from a poor white family and a divorce, I didn't have the government sitting around giving me the handouts that are available to blacks, indians, or other minorities. I don't despise them for those handouts, but quit whining, get up and do something with your life and quit waiting on the government to fix it for you. The days of racism and discrimination are long gone. Yeah, there are still pockets here and there, even the other way (blacks discriminating against whites), but in today's society it's much easier on you if you are a minority. Heck, don't think I've not sat around and tried to figure out how I could get my kids tagged as a minority so their college education would cost me a heck of a lot less. This dudes a big old whiner, as he sit's in his million dollar house. I bet he's a lot better off than if his ancestors were never put in chains? Heck, I'd like to know even what blacks alive today can actually trace their ancestors back to slavery? Also, what % are they actually African, or Indian? We are all some % of something? How many can say they are 100% anything?

shaun4411
4/21/2008, 03:02 PM
Thanks for not being overly dramatic. :rolleyes:

I just think that we as a society (and this is probably true in most cultures) have a tough time addressing our short comings and failures. When someone comes out (and in Rev. Wrights case does it in a overly dramatic fashion) and calls the U.S. out on its shortcomings it's quickly spun by the mainstream that he's a radical. Maybe the way he said it was radical, but what he said certainly wasn't.

Do you even know what he said?

OklahomaRed
4/21/2008, 03:08 PM
I have another questions. How many years, decades, or centuries; or what is the dollar figure on forgiveness for something that my great, great, great, great (which is strectching it since on my dad's side we are second generation) do I have to pay taxes to support the people we have oppressed? When do they get over it and quit relying on handouts to support themselves? I'm talking any group here. How long is enough? How much is enough for them to learn to live in the same set of rules, regulations, and standards that the rest of us are forced to live under? How many generations of fatherless children does the "government" have to parent? How many casinos? How many free health clinics? How many tax breaks? How many quotas? Where does it end? Instead, the more the government gives them, the more you hear them whining for more. That's the difference between a lib and a con. Libs think the government should fix peoples society issues. Cons think people should fix themselves. Personally, I choose to take responsibility for myself and my family; however, it's hard to do with the taxes to support all of these programs. Taxes on earnings, capital gains, selling, buying, gas, cigarettes, liquor, driving, etc. We are the most overtaxed generation ever and these guys are still whining?

Vaevictis
4/21/2008, 06:09 PM
We are the most overtaxed generation ever and these guys are still whining?

Unless you're at least 75 years old, you really don't get to make that claim.

Frozen Sooner
4/21/2008, 06:26 PM
Personally, I choose to take responsibility for myself and my family; however, it's hard to do with the taxes to support all of these programs.

This makes me giggle.

"I take responsibility for myself-except when I blame others for how hard it is!"

Big Red Ron
4/21/2008, 06:55 PM
Obama

Half Honkey, all Donkey!

:D

shaun4411
4/21/2008, 07:15 PM
Unless you're at least 75 years old, you really don't get to make that claim.

i agree. he wasnt paying tax in the early 80's was he?

Vaevictis
4/21/2008, 07:25 PM
i agree. he wasnt paying tax in the early 80's was he?

No idea, but unless you were making top dollar in the 50's, you don't get to claim to be the most overtaxed generation ever.

Those folks were paying 91 cents on the dollar.

Jerk
4/21/2008, 07:47 PM
No idea, but unless you were making top dollar in the 50's, you don't get to claim to be the most overtaxed generation ever.

Those folks were paying 91 cents on the dollar.

:eek: What would be the point of making a lot of money?

You're saying that if a person made $1,000,000 then they only kept $91,000? What would be funny is if a dude could bring home more money by making less.

Vaevictis
4/21/2008, 08:04 PM
:eek: What would be the point of making a lot of money?

You're saying that if a person made $1,000,000 then they only kept $91,000? What would be funny is if a dude could bring home more money by making less.

Well, the top marginal rate was 91%. That wouldn't be ALL of their income, just the portion in the top bracket.

And money is money. Although, usually when you started to earn that much money, it was paid out in perks which weren't taxable.

On the plus side, there's only so many perks you can give a guy, so CEO compensation wasn't as completely out of whack as it is today. It's hard to justify to your shareholders giving a guy a million so he can keep $90k.

Vaevictis
4/21/2008, 08:05 PM
But basically, my point is quit with the frigging hyperbole on the taxes. Quite possibly the most prosperous time in American history had MASSIVE taxes on the wealthy.

Fact of the matter is, our tax load right now is relatively low.

Jerk
4/21/2008, 08:20 PM
But basically, my point is quit with the frigging hyperbole on the taxes. Quite possibly the most prosperous time in American history had MASSIVE taxes on the wealthy.

Fact of the matter is, our tax load right now is relatively low.

Is that tax load just Federal, or everything? State taxes, city sales taxes, ad valorem, gasoline taxes, embedded taxes, et al. When you add it all up, what do you think the total is? I bet it's 50% of every dollar. I'm not trying to make a point. I'm just curious.

Vaevictis
4/21/2008, 09:26 PM
Is that tax load just Federal, or everything? State taxes, city sales taxes, ad valorem, gasoline taxes, embedded taxes, et al. When you add it all up, what do you think the total is? I bet it's 50% of every dollar. I'm not trying to make a point. I'm just curious.

I'm only certain with respect to federal rates. I expect it's still lower than the 50's though -- you had all these other taxes back then too, and on top of them crazy high federal income tax rates.

Big Red Ron
4/21/2008, 09:58 PM
I said, "Obama, half honkey, all donkey!"

Turd_Ferguson
4/21/2008, 10:06 PM
This makes me giggle.

"I take responsibility for myself-except when I blame others for how hard it is!"What does the rest of his post make you do?

CatfishSooner
4/21/2008, 11:31 PM
Obama is goin down...

JohnnyMack
4/22/2008, 09:32 AM
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=166515&title=barack-obama-pt.-1

From the Daily Show last night. Stewart finally asks the question we all want to know the answer to.



"Will you pull a bait and switch sir, and enslave the white race? Be honest!"

:D

OklahomaRed
4/22/2008, 10:31 AM
This makes me giggle.

"I take responsibility for myself-except when I blame others for how hard it is!"

Never taken a government handout. I have paid more than my fair share of taxes since I started working full time in 1976. I paid my way through college while working, and borrowed money that I paid back within 10 years of my graduation at a 9% interest rate. No one paid my way. I am not bragging, I'm just saying it can be done. I applaud anyone who chooses to take opportunities presented to them and change the course of their family and generations to come.

I drove by a van full of mentally handicapped people this morning on the way to work and thought to myself, "I don't mind my tax dollars going to help those guys. That's where they are supposed to go."

However, I personally know people that keep on having kids and choose not to work just so they can stay on welfare. Our system has been set up where it actually provides financial incentives to stay on welfare and have kids rather than get out and work, and make some sort of attempt to better youself 10 years from now. Some of them are third generation welfare recipients. When are they supposed to "get over it" and learn to stand on their own? Those are the situations that give me heartburn. Those, and the government building bridges to nowhere.

Again, the post I responded to was what part of Reverend Wright's speach did I have problems with?

JohnnyMack
4/22/2008, 11:08 AM
I applaud anyone who chooses to take opportunities presented to them and change the course of their family and generations to come.


Does that include someone born to mixed race parents, raised by his Mother and Grandparents who gets into and graduates from Harvard Law and goes on to become a U.S. Senator? Or no? ;)

Civicus_Sooner
4/22/2008, 12:48 PM
Does that include someone born to mixed race parents, raised by his Mother and Grandparents who gets into and graduates from Harvard Law and goes on to become a U.S. Senator? Or no? ;)
Well, if not for affirmative action, he'd probably had to go to a state college like most of us. ;)

Taxman71
4/22/2008, 01:12 PM
I think you can applaud someone without voting for them.

soonerscuba
4/22/2008, 01:59 PM
I think you can applaud someone without voting for them.
This is bunk. We all know that Dems are treasonous liberals that want to turn this country into Fran-Russo-North Norea-bia. And to even suggest that Barack Obama stands in the face of a stereotype and could be seen as inspirational to millions is to collaborate with traitors that hate the troops. Where have you been?

Condescending Sooner
4/22/2008, 02:23 PM
Does that include someone born to mixed race parents, raised by his Mother and Grandparents who gets into and graduates from Harvard Law and goes on to become a U.S. Senator? Or no? ;)

Who paid for his Harvard Education?

JohnnyMack
4/22/2008, 02:33 PM
Who paid for his Harvard Education?

Obama Mama?

Frozen Sooner
4/22/2008, 02:55 PM
Barack Obama paid his own way through Harvard using student loans which he repaid with the royalties from his books.

JohnnyMack
4/22/2008, 02:56 PM
Mine was funnier.

Taxman71
4/22/2008, 03:50 PM
Who paid for his Harvard Education?

I heard he worked on the door to door magazine sales/scam circuit supplemented with hush money from tobacco companies desparately trying to get a smoker in the white house.....Another reason not to vote for him.

Big Red Ron
4/22/2008, 08:51 PM
Who paid for his Harvard Education?You did, and Rich knows it.

JohnnyMack
4/25/2008, 03:48 PM
Mike Huckabee weighs in on BHO and his relationship with Wright:


“I think that would be a little presumptuous to ever assume that just because the pastor says something in the pulpit everybody in the pew agrees with it. That’s rarely the case. Influential? Sure. Necessarily transferable? Usually not,”

StoopTroup
4/25/2008, 04:24 PM
Wright should run for Obama's Senate spot once he retires. :D

SanJoaquinSooner
4/25/2008, 04:39 PM
Who paid for his Harvard Education?


"He told the crowd that 70 percent of his financial assistance for college came in the form of grants, and 30 percent in loans, which he paid off in a year."

http://jacksonville.com/apnews/stories/082407/D8R7K7TG0.shtml

noleamite
4/26/2008, 11:16 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?videoId=1fd1c0cf-5c80-4d75-996f-bd53b2461ae0&sMPlaylistID