SI's Stewart Mandel on OU's bowl woes

[TUSooner]

As usual, sorry if it's been posted, I didnt see it anywhere
From: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/stewart_mandel/01/03/cfb.bag/index.html

So we've seen this plenty of times over the past few years: Oklahoma highly ranked and highly touted going into a BCS bowl only to be embarrassed. So what is it? Are they under-motivated, overrated or just choke artists?
--Mike, New York City

It's pretty puzzling me to me how the same coach, Bob Stoops, who won a national championship in his second season, won nine of his first 10 games against top-10 foes and to this day has an absolutely sterling overall record has now lost four straight BCS bowl games, three of which his team was widely expected to win, two of which have been absolute blowouts. It's equally puzzling why Oklahoma has not suffered anywhere near the same backlash that Ohio State -- 3-1 in BCS games under Jim Tressel -- has endured for its sole bad showing a year ago.

Obviously, each game had its own unique circumstances, whether it was Jason White's injury against LSU or Boise State's improbable series of trick plays or the absence of four key starters (WR Malcolm Kelly, DT DeMarcus Granger and DBs Lendy Holmes and Reggie Smith) that unquestionably contributed to West Virginia's dismantling of the Sooners Wednesday night.
If there's one common characteristic to the USC, Boise State and West Virginia losses, however, it's that Oklahoma's defense looked absolutely baffled by its opponent's offense. The unique nature of bowl games, as opposed to conference games, is that you have to game plan against an opponent for which you have no frame of reference. Through the years, the Sooners have done better than most when it comes to slowing down teams like Texas and Texas Tech, who they see every year, but it would seem they have not prepared very well for the more unfamiliar opponents.
All that said, West Virginia has become quite an enigma itself. Over the past three seasons, we've seen the Pat White-Steve Slaton (or, in Wednesday's case, Noel Devine)-led offense bulldoze practically everybody it plays, including two pretty darn good BCS opponents in Georgia and Oklahoma. So how is it they spit the bit against USF each of the past two seasons and, even more baffling, Pittsburgh this year? The team that racked up 526 yards against Oklahoma could most certainly stack up against either Ohio State or LSU in next week's championship game, but the team that could barely gain a first down against the 4-7 Panthers obviously prevented that from happening.

[Mjcpr]

I agree. We definitely need some help on the defensive coaching staff; which is surprising considering Bob's background.

[WisconsinSooner]

I posted a small section of it yesterday. Glad someone posted the entire article. :) I think the "Oklahoma's defense looked absolutely baffled by its opponent's offense" is exactly correct. People can bitch & moan about the offensive side of the ball but there is no exuse for giving up +40 in 3 straight BCS games.

[NYC Poke]

The entire Mailbag is pretty good reading. Addresses the Rose Bowl, USC, and a bunch of other relevant topics sensibly. Stewart Mandel is aces in my book.

By the way, my name is not Mike.

[KingDavid]

I think it's possible that we're over-reacting about the defensive coaches. BV has done a great job this year, by almost every other measure except this game. This article fails to mention that for all practical purposes, we didn't have Auston English for the game, either (flu, leg still iffy).

So let's think about that:

No Smith: top corner
No Granger: top DT (arguably better than McCoy b/c of experience, not talent)
No Holmes: excellent tackler (wasn't he in the top 3 on the defense?)
No English: top DE not just on our team, but in the big XII.

That's three All Big XII players plus one big-time contributor, all on one side of the ball. How often do you think a defensive coordinator playing a quality opponent is going to be able to overcome that and post the same numbers as he's done all year? Maybe 1 out of every 8 games. And ONLY if the D can create about 2-3 turnovers (i.e. get a little lucky).

I don't think there's any reason to go chunking the defensive coaching staff out the window, personally.

We lost that game because:

1) We were missing key players;
2) We lost momentum after the failed 2pt conversion and onside kick. Whether you agree those were bad calls, you can't deny it was the turning point of the game; and
3) WVU played a hell-of-a game.

[GrapevineSooner]

By the way, my name is not Mike.

Whatever you say, Mike. ;)

[Big D Sooner]

I am not big for firing coaches after 1 or 2 bad games but I do think that it is time to rethink the defensive coaching staff. In the BCS bowls, since Mike Stoops left, we have given up 55, 43, and 48. For a team with as much speed and talent as OU, that is simply unacceptable.

[Vic n Tulsa]

I think it's possible that we're over-reacting about the defensive coaches. BV has done a great job this year, by almost every other measure except this game. This article fails to mention that for all practical purposes, we didn't have Auston English for the game, either (flu, leg still iffy).

So let's think about that:

No Smith: top corner
No Granger: top DT (arguably better than McCoy b/c of experience, not talent)
No Holmes: excellent tackler (wasn't he in the top 3 on the defense?)
No English: top DE not just on our team, but in the big XII.

That's three All Big XII players plus one big-time contributor, all on one side of the ball. How often do you think a defensive coordinator playing a quality opponent is going to be able to overcome that and post the same numbers as he's done all year? Maybe 1 out of every 8 games. And ONLY if the D can create about 2-3 turnovers (i.e. get a little lucky).

I don't think there's any reason to go chunking the defensive coaching staff out the window, personally.

We lost that game because:

1) We were missing key players;
2) We lost momentum after the failed 2pt conversion and onside kick. Whether you agree those were bad calls, you can't deny it was the turning point of the game; and
3) WVU played a hell-of-a game.

Typical Sooner making excuse after excuse for an *** whooping:

Who cares if you lose key players, top notch teams are supposed to have backups ready to fill the hole when someone goes down. Your defense sucked because coaches were NOT prepared for WVU. Players were out of position, lack of pressure on the QB, poor tackling, lack of agressiveness. Lack of adjustments during the game!

BV is not getting the job done consistently. You want a dominate defense? Go get the top Def coach last year! Look at Mack, loses his Def coordinator, does he promote within, no he says who is the best def coordinator out there today based on performace? Chizik - done, go get him. Now it's Will Muschamp from Auburn. Fine - pay him want he wants and sign him up!

Why doesn't Stoops think that way? You want the best coach, you find the best and sign him up!:texan:

[dabien]

Typical Sooner making excuse after excuse for an *** whooping:

Who cares if you lose key players, top notch teams are supposed to have backups ready to fill the hole when someone goes down. Your defense sucked because coaches were NOT prepared for WVU. Players were out of position, lack of pressure on the QB, poor tackling, lack of agressiveness. Lack of adjustments during the game!

BV is not getting the job done consistently. You want a dominate defense? Go get the top Def coach last year! Look at Mack, loses his Def coordinator, does he promote within, no he says who is the best def coordinator out there today based on performace? Chizik - done, go get him. Now it's Will Muschamp from Auburn. Fine - pay him want he wants and sign him up!

Why doesn't Stoops think that way? You want the best coach, you find the best and sign him up!:texan:

I COMPLETELY AGREE. WE NEED TO FIRE BRENT VENABLES. EVERYONE JOIN MY GROUP. http://upenn.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8302045814
i WANT TO CREATE A WEBSITE. Is anyone down with me. We need give Bob Stoops pressure to make some sort of action with Venables. Hire another DC may help but getting rid of Brent "ima******" Venables is obviously the best choice.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Um...hold on there, chief. Since Mack is 3-6 versus Stoops and has a grand total of one Big 12 title to Stoops' five - all with Venables on board - I'd be pretty confortable not doing what Mack has done.

Do the math:

Stoops - nine years, five titles
Marijuana Mack - ten years, one title

Stoops - nine years, six wins versus Texas, all against Mack
Marijuana Mack - ten years, four wins versus OU, three against Stoops

Someone sure knows something about defense and such. Give me Stoops' judgement about coordinators over Marijuana Mack's every time.

Every time, partner. Every time.

[Leroy Lizard]

Who cares if you lose key players, top notch teams are supposed to have backups ready to fill the hole when someone goes down.

What happened to WVU when White went down?

[dabien]

Um...hold on there, chief. Since Mack is 3-6 versus Stoops and has a grand total of one Big 12 title to Stoops' five - all with Venables on board - I'd be pretty confortable not doing what Mack has done.

Do the math:

Stoops - nine years, five titles
Marijuana Mack - ten years, one title

Stoops - nine years, six wins versus Texas, all against Mack
Marijuana Mack - ten years, four wins versus OU, three against Stoops

Someone sure knows something about defense and such. Give me Stoops' judgement about coordinators over Marijuana Mack's every time.

Every time, partner. Every time.

Listen there needs to be change, Mack Brown knew it, and he hired Chizik after losing to OU year in year out, and they won 2 out of 3. I have seen Texas's defense, and they seem to be ready and play well every game. OU appears to be lost on a number of plays every game, they do not know what spots they belong. It's time for a change at OU, hire another DC or fire Brent Venables and hire Auburn's DC.
we need change now if you want Reggie Smith to come back. There is no way he would come back and see his draft stock go down the drain because of BV's poor play calling. I was in the same class with reggie at santa fe and he was tellin me he wants BV gone.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Exactly, Leroy.

And, our small-minded fanbase and a few sad flamers who have slipped through look past that.

Reggie Smith.

Lendy Holmes.

Demarcus Granger.

Demarco Murray. Anyone?

Malcolm Kelly.

Pretty good players. Any of those guys contribute much to our success this season?

I'd say so.

Sure did miss them all the other night. And, it wasn't Venables who injured them, told them to skip class, or encouraged them to shoplift.

I'm just sayin...

[Jello Biafra]

Typical Sooner making excuse after excuse for an *** whooping:

Who cares if you lose key players, top notch teams are supposed to have backups ready to fill the hole when someone goes down. Your defense sucked because coaches were NOT prepared for WVU. Players were out of position, lack of pressure on the QB, poor tackling, lack of agressiveness. Lack of adjustments during the game!

BV is not getting the job done consistently. You want a dominate defense? Go get the top Def coach last year! Look at Mack, loses his Def coordinator, does he promote within, no he says who is the best def coordinator out there today based on performace? Chizik - done, go get him. Now it's Will Muschamp from Auburn. Fine - pay him want he wants and sign him up!

Why doesn't Stoops think that way? You want the best coach, you find the best and sign him up!:texan:


and again........
you still keep losing to us. year after year after year.......hiring within or going outside, you guys will lose 9 out of 10 to us....bank on it.

[dabien]

Exactly, Leroy.

And, our small-minded fanbase and a few sad flamers who have slipped through look past that.

Reggie Smith.

Lendy Holmes.

Demarcus Granger.

Demarco Murray. Anyone?

Malcolm Kelly.

Pretty good players. Any of those guys contribute much to our success this season?

I'd say so.

Sure did miss them all the other night. And, it wasn't Venables who injured them, told them to skip class, or encouraged them to shoplift.

I'm just sayin...

I never said I disagreed with you because I agree 100%. But I have been wanting Venables fired ever since we lost to USC and TCU. This one game you can say we couldnt' tackle because we were missing our stars, and we had gaps in our defense because we had new players playing, but we had a month to prepare. OU could be excused for this BCS game, however there are many defensive breakdowns, especially in the secondary. I will say Venables knows how to stop the run, but he is completely clueless on how to cover a passing offense, he just needs to run effective zone blitzes cover 2 cover 3, man-man he just doesn't know how to do it.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Listen there needs to be change, Mack Brown knew it, and he hired Chizik after losing to OU year in year out, and they won 2 out of 3. I have seen Texas's defense, and they seem to be ready and play well every game. OU appears to be lost on a number of plays every game, they do not know what spots they belong. It's time for a change at OU, hire another DC or fire Brent Venables and hire Auburn's DC.
we need change now if you want Reggie Smith to come back. There is no way he would come back and see his draft stock go down the drain because of BV's poor play calling. I was in the same class with reggie at santa fe and he was tellin me he wants BV gone.

UT won exactly one title in two years with Chizik. Now, he's flaming out at Iowa State.

Next, Marijuana Mack went out and "hired", "paid big money" to Larry Mac Duff, architect of the 1990 Arizona Desert Swarm. And, what did it get him...another loss to OU...and another early December evening sitting at home with his wife and dog (and ball-handling step-son) watching OU lift their fifth Big 12 title trophy.

And, once again, for the fifth time, on OU's sideline leading the defense was Brent Venables.

Oh, yes, Horn troll. The same Brent Venables who has been spanking Mack Brown since 1998.

Oh, yes, Horn troll, we haven't forgotten that Venables once stood on the Kansas State sideline, leading a defense that beat the crap out of Texas as well. Mack's first run-in with Brent V. was a lopsided 48-7 Wildcat whipping of Texas. Not even the marijuana-laced Ricky Williams could figure out Venables for Mack.

So, run along with your fantasies of OU giving up on Marijuana Mack's master - Brent Venables.

Do the math with me again:

Mack and his assortment of "highly paid" defensive coordinators versus schools with Brent Venables-coached defenses - three wins, seven losses.

Come on, now, Horn troll. The Humpty Dance is your chance to do the hump.

You feelin' it. Oh, yeah. You should be.

[Jello Biafra]

I will say Venables knows how to stop the run, but he is completely clueless on how to cover a passing offense, he just needs to run effective zone blitzes cover 2 cover 3, man-man he just doesn't know how to do it.


right because they hadn't invented these defenses by the time he started playing his college ball yet. :rolleyes:


aaaaaand he's so stupid, he falls asleep while walking..........get a grip dude, i don't think it's any one thing. it's a combination of many things with the quality of athlete we are recruiting probably topping the list.

[dabien]

UT won exactly one title in two years with Chizik. Now, he's flaming out at Iowa State.

Next, Marijuana Mack went out and "hired", "paid big money" to Larry Mac Duff, architect of the 1990 Arizona Desert Swarm. And, what did it get him...another loss to OU...and another early December evening sitting at home with his wife and dog (and ball-handling step-son) watching OU lift their fifth Big 12 title trophy.

And, once again, for the fifth time, on OU's sideline leading the defense was Brent Venables.

Oh, yes, Horn troll. The same Brent Venables who has been spanking Mack Brown since 1998.

Oh, yes, Horn troll, we haven't forgotten that Venables once stood on the Kansas State sideline, leading a defense that beat the crap out of Texas as well. Mack's first run-in with Brent V. was a lopsided 48-7 Wildcat whipping of Texas. Not even the marijuana-laced Ricky Williams could figure out Venables for Mack.

So, run along with your fantasies of OU giving up on Marijuana Mack's master - Brent Venables.

Do the math with me again:

Mack and his assortment of "highly paid" defensive coordinators versus schools with Brent Venables-coached defenses - three wins, seven losses.

Come on, now, Horn troll. The Humpty Dance is your chance to do the hump.

You feelin' it. Oh, yeah. You should be.

WOW I cannot believe I am seeing someone support Venables. Mike Stoops was probably the main reason why OU performed at such a high level, and then the hiring of Bo Pelini was excellent, but what do you know, he moves to LSU. Now its left to Brent Venables and he loses to TCU UCLA CU TTECH TWICE OREGON, all because of the porous defense in the secondary.

don't stick up for Brent Venables, we all want him gone.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Also, ask Texas Tech and Missouri how clueless Venables defenses are about defending the pass. Tech is 3-6 versus OU with Venables at the helm. Missouri is 0-6.

Do the math:

Pass heavy Big 12 schools against OU with Venables - 3 wins, 12 losses.

Gee, I hope Venables wakes up soon and figures out that new-fangled passing game.

[stoopified]

I think it's possible that we're over-reacting about the defensive coaches. BV has done a great job this year, by almost every other measure except this game. This article fails to mention that for all practical purposes, we didn't have Auston English for the game, either (flu, leg still iffy).

So let's think about that:

No Smith: top corner
No Granger: top DT (arguably better than McCoy b/c of experience, not talent)
No Holmes: excellent tackler (wasn't he in the top 3 on the defense?)
No English: top DE not just on our team, but in the big XII.

That's three All Big XII players plus one big-time contributor, all on one side of the ball. How often do you think a defensive coordinator playing a quality opponent is going to be able to overcome that and post the same numbers as he's done all year? Maybe 1 out of every 8 games. And ONLY if the D can create about 2-3 turnovers (i.e. get a little lucky).

I don't think there's any reason to go chunking the defensive coaching staff out the window, personally.

We lost that game because:

1) We were missing key players;
2) We lost momentum after the failed 2pt conversion and onside kick. Whether you agree those were bad calls, you can't deny it was the turning point of the game; and
3) WVU played a hell-of-a game.Dead on!

[Tear Down This Wall]

WOW I cannot believe I am seeing someone support Venables. Mike Stoops was probably the main reason why OU performed at such a high level, and then the hiring of Bo Pelini was excellent, but what do you know, he moves to LSU. Now its left to Brent Venables and he loses to TCU UCLA CU TTECH TWICE OREGON, all because of the porous defense in the secondary.

don't stick up for Brent Venables, we all want him gone.

I understand full well that Horn fans all want Venables gone. I would, too, if I were a Horn fan.

But, I'm not. And, for all of Mike Stoops' defensive genius, he hasn't even so much as led Arizona to a bowl game - and Venables isn't there to screw things up for him.

Moderators, please. Dispatch the troll.

[KingDavid]

Typical Sooner making excuse after excuse for an *** whooping

How dare you call me a typical sooner making excuse after excuse for an asswhooping. I'll have you know that I'm an EXCEPTIONAL SOONER making excuse after excuse for an asswhooping.

You get that straight, Vic!

As for the rest of your comments: it's pretty clear you've never played a down of football for a winning team.


Look at Mack, loses his Def coordinator, does he promote within, no he says who is the best def coordinator out there today based on performace? Chizik - done, go get him. Now it's Will Muschamp from Auburn. Fine - pay him want he wants and sign him up!

If you don't have at least SOME loyalty to the in-house coaches, you'll never actually get the best ones. You speak of Mack Brown like he's some ruthless overlord. Go enter "Greg Davis" on hornfans.com and come back when you're ready to talk the reality of building a program, and not just a team.


Your defense sucked because coaches were NOT prepared for WVU. Players were out of position, lack of pressure on the QB, poor tackling, lack of agressiveness.

All of these things require fresh, game experience, for a player to demonstrate and master consistently. You'd know that if you had a frame of reference beyond your high school debate team.



Lack of adjustments during the game!


Perhaps the only thing of merit you said.

Otherwise, you're just a typical arm-chair quarterback spouting Dennis-Miller caliber critiques after an asswhooping.:eek:

[Desert Sapper]

lack of pressure on the QB...lack of agressiveness.

I must disagree with these two points. Our biggest damn problem in the game was that we were overly aggressive on D, didn't play the patient, reactive game you have to against the option, and put WAAYYY too much pressure on White, who proceeded to burn whoever got near him.

The problem, and it was a defensive philosophy and personnel problem, was that we played the West Virginia spread mostly the wrong way. We were attacking, attacking, attacking, then we were out of position because one guy (that's all it takes) didn't stay patient and wait for the play to come to him. Blitzing White smoked us, because he is a burner. It's like the draw on a blitz. Most times, it'll burn you. Sometimes you might get the RB in the backfield, but most times, it'll burn you.

So yes, we were out of position, but it was because of aggressiveness for the most part.

Poor tackling and lack of adjustment I definitely agree with.

And every major upset this year had injuries to primary starters at the root. Name one that didn't.

[OKLA21FAN]

Also, ask Texas Tech and Missouri how clueless Venables defenses are about defending the pass. Tech is 3-6 versus OU with Venables at the helm. Missouri is 0-6.

Do the math:

Pass heavy Big 12 schools against OU with Venables - 3 wins, 12 losses.

Gee, I hope Venables wakes up soon and figures out that new-fangled passing game.

and you omitted that the Oregon loss could have been avoided had the OFFEnse not squandered numerous red zone chances be settling for FGs.

as for the TCU loss, only scoring TEN points (while giving up only 17) .....nuff said.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Amen that on squandering scoring chances against Oregon in 06.

[KingDavid]

I COMPLETELY AGREE. WE NEED TO FIRE BRENT VENABLES. EVERYONE JOIN MY GROUP. http://upenn.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8302045814
i WANT TO CREATE A WEBSITE. Is anyone down with me. We need give Bob Stoops pressure to make some sort of action with Venables. Hire another DC may help but getting rid of Brent "ima******" Venables is obviously the best choice.

If I join your group, can I get in on a little of the top grade hooch you're smoking?

[dabien]

If I join your group, can I get in on a little of the top grade hooch you're smoking?

yea man i'll make u admin/officer whatever u like.

[NYC Poke]

yea man i'll make u admin/officer whatever u like.

I'll join your group if you promise to send him to Stillwater if you succeed.

[KingDavid]

yea man i'll make u admin/officer whatever u like.

I'll abandon all reason for some good weed, any day of the week. Count me in.

[dabien]

Why are all of you guys defending Brett Venables.
DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS.
you know that, we all know this. I am seriously not surprised that we are 0-4 in BCS games. 0-4 after Mike Stoops left.

[OUinFLA]

don't stick up for Brent Venables, we all want him gone.

Who all is "we all"?
I don't remember signing your petition :confused:

[NYC Poke]

When I lived in Houston, I knew a UT alum whose dad was a big booster who'd played for the DR NC team. He bought his dad the "firemackbrown.com" domain name for a birthday or Christmas present. I should have checked with him after UT won the MNC to see if he still had it.

[dabien]

Sayyyyyyyyyy??? Wasn't your friend Reggie the one who dropped the punt that allowed one of those lower tier football teams to score a go ahead td???

You don't think...........

:rolleyes:



Im thinkin it's time for you to take your trolling to the lake.
Reggie is a 1st round pick. He misjudged a punt, it happens all the time. Devon Hester does it now and then, it's a common mistake.
Colorado torched OU's secondary, with one of the worst QBs in the nation. His rating is in the bottom 1% of the league.
How can you defend Brent Venables for allowing Cody Hawkins to look like Joe Montana? Please explain.

[GottaHavePride]

Reggie is a 1st round pick. He misjudged a punt, it happens all the time. Devon Hester does it now and then, it's a common mistake.
Colorado torched OU's secondary, with one of the worst QBs in the nation. His rating is in the bottom 1% of the league.
How can you defend Brent Venables for allowing Cody Hawkins to look like Joe Montana? Please explain.

Wait, the Big XII has 12 teams. Even allowing every single team a backup quarterback in the calculations, Cody Hawkins could not possibly be below the 4th percentile in the Big XII.

Besides, whoever's playing QB at Iowa State has to be worse than Hawkins.

[dabien]

Wait, the Big XII has 12 teams. Even allowing every single team a backup quarterback in the calculations, Cody Hawkins could not possibly be below the 4th percentile in the Big XII.

Besides, whoever's playing QB at Iowa State has to be worse than Hawkins.

I am talking about the NCAA
the 100 teams in the NCAA, and Brett Meier is better than Cody Hawkins.
its a fact.

[Jello Biafra]

Reggie is a 1st round pick. He misjudged a punt, it happens all the time. Devon Hester does it now and then, it's a common mistake.



who says?

not often and when he isn't (apparently) dropping punts, he's taking them to the hizzy......

next?

[cccasooner2]

I think it's possible that we're over-reacting about the defensive coaches. .........etc.

1) We were missing key players;
2) We lost momentum after the failed 2pt conversion and onside kick. Whether you agree those were bad calls, you can't deny it was the turning point of the game; and
3) WVU played a hell-of-a game.

Thank you Brent. :rolleyes:

[Curly Bill]

BV has done a great job this year, by almost every other measure except this game.

I thought he did especally great in that texas tech game. How many first half points was it they scored?

...but the issue remains: what about the bowl games, and why hasn't he done so great in those?

[Vaevictis]

Colorado torched OU's secondary, with one of the worst QBs in the nation. His rating is in the bottom 1% of the league.
How can you defend Brent Venables for allowing Cody Hawkins to look like Joe Montana? Please explain.

2 TD / 2 INT is torching?

[JohnnyMack]

This thread is teh rulz.

[kingsby]

I point only about BV - if he was really good; why has he not been offered a HC job. Look Chizik; Robinson; Tomey at Texas - when they were playing solid defense. Look at M. stoops.

You can not keep giving up 40+ points in National TV games and be considered top notch ... OU has been embarrassed on the national stage too many times.

Starting with K-state in B12 championship game in 2003

[Sooner70]

Missing key players didn't help, but WV had Slaton & QB out also. Stoops' gamble on the onside kick was the start of the slide. At 20-15, I can kinda understand the 2 point conversion, but not the onside. 'Course, had it worked, everybody would've called Bob a genius. Those WV defensive ends were faster than anything I've ever seen, & the proof was all those holding calls. Our guys were grabbing them as they sped past them. All in all, though, scoring 28 points ain't bad against a team like WVU, but you still lose unless you can hold them to 27 or less.

[Curly Bill]

I point only about BV - if he was really good; why has he not been offered a HC job.

You raise a good point. Not too long ago another poster on here tried to defend BV by saying he had turned down multiple head coaching opportunities, and did so to stay at OU out of loyalty and to build a champion. I asked that poster for a list of those head jobs BV had turned down...

...I'm still waiting. ;)

[hink4769]

i guess we could trade bob stoops for mack brown. mack's 6-1 in his last 7 bowl games. i think the whorns would love that.

[Curly Bill]

i guess we could trade bob stoops for mack brown. mack's 6-1 in his last 7 bowl games. i think the whorns would love that.

Where's anyone saying we should get rid of Stoops? Fire Venables sure, get rid of Bobby Jack Wright sure, but I'm not seeing the let's fire Stoops stuff. Guess you could point it out to me?

[rubyspirit]

Naw, our run game killed us. We need to be more creative with offense. We needed points, instead we ran the ball and let the clock ticked away ...

[bluedogok]

BV is not getting the job done consistently. You want a dominate defense? Go get the top Def coach last year! Look at Mack, loses his Def coordinator, does he promote within, no he says who is the best def coordinator out there today based on performace? Chizik - done, go get him. Now it's Will Muschamp from Auburn. Fine - pay him want he wants and sign him up!

Why doesn't Stoops think that way? You want the best coach, you find the best and sign him up!:texan:
That's a laugh Mack is one of the MOST LOYAL coaches there is, most of the time he only changes coaches if he has to. The OC Greg Davis has been with him since Mack was at Tulane. The DC coordinator (Carl Reese) was the sacrifice even when most down here were calling for both heads in the days before Vince. After Reese came the fired KC Chiefs DC Greg Robinson, he left to go to Syracuse. That was when Chizik was was hired at UT and Akina came with Dick Tomey. Well, Tomey goes off to San Jose State (I think), Chizik goes to ISU and Akina gets the job by default. Larry Mac Duff was a failed experiment, they both knew it and he left. Mack has changed coaches out of necessity, never of his own free will.


I must disagree with these two points. Our biggest damn problem in the game was that we were overly aggressive on D, didn't play the patient, reactive game you have to against the option, and put WAAYYY too much pressure on White, who proceeded to burn whoever got near him.

The problem, and it was a defensive philosophy and personnel problem, was that we played the West Virginia spread mostly the wrong way. We were attacking, attacking, attacking, then we were out of position because one guy (that's all it takes) didn't stay patient and wait for the play to come to him. Blitzing White smoked us, because he is a burner. It's like the draw on a blitz. Most times, it'll burn you. Sometimes you might get the RB in the backfield, but most times, it'll burn you.

So yes, we were out of position, but it was because of aggressiveness for the most part.

Poor tackling and lack of adjustment I definitely agree with.

And every major upset this year had injuries to primary starters at the root. Name one that didn't.
EXACTLY, the D ran themselves out of position constantly. Most of the big plays were either due to over pursuit, one cut back behind the defense and they were gone. The other was the back side DE on the blitz went inside, lost contain on the corner which opened up the entire opposite side of the field for White to run like crazy. They just didn't play assignment football, and didn't tackle well.


Where's anyone saying we should get rid of Stoops? Fire Venables sure, get rid of Bobby Jack Wright sure, but I'm not seeing the let's fire Stoops stuff. Guess you could point it out to me?
Bobby Jack is here for Texas recruiting, maybe move him to recruiting coordinator but you don't want to dump him from the staff.

[dabien]

Finally I get some defense for BV's firing.
I am getting ****ed that I'm being labeled as a horns fan.
I want Bob Stoops here still, I just believe BV had his chance and he blew it many many MANY TIMES.
GET LARRY COKER IN THE HOUSE, GET SOMEONe WHO CAN COACH DEFENSE!

[proudsoonergal]

i guess we could trade bob stoops for mack brown. mack's 6-1 in his last 7 bowl games. i think the whorns would love that.

I was thinking about this while I sat in the Fiesta Bowl and watched us get smacked.

Why does Mack (Texas) have such a good bowl record? I think they are 6-3 since 1999. I'd say we would all agree that while he is considered a good coach, he has never been known as a strong gameplan-er or good at making adjustments. In the meantime, Stoops, who is also a good coach, generally is good at gameplans and halftime adjustments (at least during the regular season). Stoops is 4-5. Why the discrepancy?

There are several theories. One is this - if you take out the two years that VY was the starting QB, Mack is 4-3 (I'm not counting the WSU loss in 2003 because he either didn't start and/or didn't play the whole game). 4-3 is not that different from 4-5. On the other hand, if VY hadn't been there in the first place, they probably would not have made it to the Roses, so there is no telling who the bowl opponent would have been and how they would have faired.

So, here's my theory: generally bowl games feature evenly matched opponents. Texas is generally considered one of the most talented teams in the country (probably the top team if you asked their fans). Who have their bowl opponents been? (I put the season year, not the year of the bowl game):

1998 Cotton v. Mississippi State (W 38-11)
1999 Cotton v. Arkansas (L 6-27)
2000 Holiday v. Oregon (L 30-35)
2001 Holiday v. Washington (W 47-43)
2002 Cotton v. LSU (W 35-20)
2003 Holiday v. WSU (L 20-28)
2004 Rose v. Michigan (W 38-37)
2005 Rose v. USC (W 41-38)
2006 Alamo v. Iowa (W 26-24)
2007 Holiday v. Arizona State (W 52-34)

I think it is pretty simple. The reason Mack has a better bowl record is because he ends up playing teams with less talent, and Texas "out talents" them.

Meanwhile, this is OU's bowl schedule while under Stoops:
1999 Independence v. Mississippi (L 25-27)
2000 Orange v. Florida State (W 13-2)
2001 Cotton v. Arkansas (W 10-3)
2002 Rose v. Washington State (W 34-13)
2003 Sugar v. LSU (L 14-21)
2004 Orange v. USC (L 19-55)
2005 Holiday v. Oregon (W 17-14)
2006 Fiesta v. Boise St (L 42-43)
2007 Fiesta v. WVU (L 28-48)

Other than probably Boise, I'd argue that OU plays teams that are more comparable in talent. Given that, it is not surprising that Stoops' bowl record is just under .500. I'd also argue that if OU and Texas had switched bowls and opponents over this period, OU would likely be 6-3 as well (if not better).

Sorry for the hijack! Just my Friday night musings.....

[Redgiant2]

As long as BV is in charge of the D this is going to be a common circumstance. The same mistakes are being made even in the games they win. People yammering on about OU was missing this and OU was missing that seem to forget that WV had a whole helluva lot missing as well. I'd say their head coach abandoning them is pretty damn bad and they seem to have pulled it together fairly well. The argument doesn't hold water and is an excuse for those that bury their head and can't see what's happening on the field because they don't know what they're looking at.

[East Coast Bias]

Look, i am not a big proponent of firing coaches, but I do agree with those saying we need some new coaching blood. accountability is missing and that starts at the top. Bob's attitude about losing bowl's-"Only means bad press for a month"- is the reason why we lose bowls. Our kids respect and play for him, if he made winning bowls a priority, it would happen. If coaching defense at Okla was a business(like the pro's)somebody would be fired, and Bob would be put on a performance improvement plan. Fans and the University have high expectations with no accountability for results. i would say roll a couple of heads on defense and have a "come to jesus" for the remaining group.

[NYC Poke]

EXACTLY, the D ran themselves out of position constantly. Most of the big plays were either due to over pursuit, one cut back behind the defense and they were gone. The other was the back side DE on the blitz went inside, lost contain on the corner which opened up the entire opposite side of the field for White to run like crazy. They just didn't play assignment football, and didn't tackle well.


This is it exactly. How do you stop a spread option? (1) Stuff the point of attack to force the play and allow your linebackers to make the tackle, and (2) DBs stay in position to prevent the big play.

OU played the game without 50% of their starting D-line, affecting (1), and without 50% of their starting DBs, affecting (2). The defensive secondary has been OU's Achilles heel all season, and the inexperience was even more glaring in the Fiesta.

What do inexperienced DBs do? They get over-excited, over-pursue and get out of position. What happened on ALL of WVU's big plays? The DBs overpursued, got out of position, and left space for WVU's runners or, on two occasions, receivers.

This is not bad coaching. This is youth and inexperience. The spread option is designed to take either isolate and take advantage of talent mismatches or to lure over-eager defenses out of position. Young, inexperienced players are the ones who are over-eager, and you saw in in the Fiesta.

Mr. Switzer saw this coming (said in the pre-game that the losses on defense really concerned him). I don't know why so many people here want to pin it on Venables.*


To respond to another poster, wasn't he offered SDSU a year or 2 ago?

[No1Better]

This is good coaching with poor execution. The defense should have wiped out WVA early in the game, but penalties and downstream mental errors left the defense on the field entirely too long too many times. This enabled WVA to hang with the Sooners and eventually put us away once our defense was worn down.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Typical Sooner making excuse after excuse for an *** whooping:

Who cares if you lose key players, top notch teams are supposed to have backups ready to fill the hole when someone goes down. Your defense sucked because coaches were NOT prepared for WVU. Players were out of position, lack of pressure on the QB, poor tackling, lack of agressiveness. Lack of adjustments during the game!

BV is not getting the job done consistently. You want a dominate defense? Go get the top Def coach last year! Look at Mack, loses his Def coordinator, does he promote within, no he says who is the best def coordinator out there today based on performace? Chizik - done, go get him. Now it's Will Muschamp from Auburn. Fine - pay him want he wants and sign him up!

Why doesn't Stoops think that way? You want the best coach, you find the best and sign him up!:texan:

Thanks aggie for shutting down the Venables haters. Mack Brown won one championship because of Vince Young and aggie is still trying to figure out how to finish better than 4th in the B12 South. I'll take 5 B12 titles in 8 years and texass can keep their Holiday Bowl trophies.

[Scott D]

Finally I get some defense for BV's firing.
I am getting ****ed that I'm being labeled as a horns fan.
I want Bob Stoops here still, I just believe BV had his chance and he blew it many many MANY TIMES.
GET LARRY COKER IN THE HOUSE, GET SOMEONe WHO CAN COACH DEFENSE!


Prior to becoming Miami's head football coach, Coker served under Butch Davis as the Hurricanes' offensive coordinator and quarterbacks coach since Davis' first season at UM in 1995. While the offensive coordinator from 1995-2000, UM went 51-20 overall and 33-9 in conference play. With Coker as the offensive coordinator, UM was 27-9 at the historic Orange Bowl and 19-11 on the road. Additionally, the Hurricanes won all four bowl games during that six-season span.

Prior to his arrival at the University of Miami in 1995, Coker spent two seasons at Ohio State (1993-94) coaching the defensive backfield. The Buckeyes participated in two bowl games during his tenure and were Big Ten co-champions in 1993. From 1990-92, Coker was the offensive coordinator at Oklahoma, assisting the Sooners to two bowl victories. Before heading to Norman, Coker spent seven seasons as the offensive coordinator at Oklahoma State. In his seven seasons with the Cowboys, he coached 1988 Heisman Trophy winner Barry Sanders and the team went on to win four bowl games. Coker first made the jump to Division I with Tulsa from 1979-82 as the offensive backfield coach. Tulsa won three Missouri Valley Conference championships during his four seasons.

There's a genius for you. Take a guy who spent 2 years out of 30 coaching a defensive position to be a defensive coordinator.

[dabien]

There's a genius for you. Take a guy who spent 2 years out of 30 coaching a defensive position to be a defensive coordinator.

I just knew he had ties with Oklahoma. He may not be able to be a DC, but we need some new blood in this system.

[jduggle]

Good coaching maybe....bad execution absolutely. But Stoops has to come to the realization that his continual use of zone defense whether it be cover 2 or cover 3 or nickel or whatever doesn't work against the spread. You have to contain the QB in order to force him to throw. That's what the pros are doing to Young. How many times did Venables blitz White only to watch him run right by the blitzing player? I totally agree we missed Smith and Holmes, but many of the zone schemes Venables are difficult. With guys only playing 2 or 3 years it's hard to get any experience in the secondary.

I just think that Stoops has to make some changes because OU has had way too many games where we've either been blown out on a national stage or lost in games where we clearly should have won.

[Scott D]

I just knew he had ties with Oklahoma. He may not be able to be a DC, but we need some new blood in this system.

Having ties doesn't mean much in the overall picture. The fans of this University would **** all over themselves if by some strange chance of effect brought Bud Foster to OU from VT.