Pros and cons of the onside kill call???

[MI Sooner]

Does anyone have a problem with the onside kick call other than the timing? What are the other arguments against trying it?

I must admit that I love the surprise onside kick in general, and I loved the call in that specific instance, too. So many people keep saying that it works <10% of the time. I bet onside kicks at the end of games, when the return team expects it, work well more often than that. Of the two dozen or so times I've seen the surprise onside kick called, I think it's worked well over 50% of the time, not counting illegal procedure penalties resulting in rekicks as a success or failure.

As for those who didn't like the call, did you not like the fake punt against 'bama in 2003? The calls seem very similar to me. The other team is giving you something, you just need to have the cojones to take it, because if they suddenly change their defense or you screw up the execution, everyone will jump down your throat.

WVU was lined up at the 45, didn't have a guy on the ball, and hadn't been waiting for the kick to start their retreat to block. I'm sure Hartley practiced it a lot, but he just messed up. We also had a screw up in blocking assignments, since we had two or three guys converge on one WVU player, leaving the guy who recovered it untouched. I really think that we should be able to execute that play 8 or 9 times out of ten with the way WVU lined up.

As for the timing, I know momentum is important, but do you really think that we shut down WVU the rest of the way if we kick it deep? We need to score... a lot. There's no guarantee that they don't return a deep kick to our 38 either. There's no reason our defense can't stop them, either on downs or forcing a punt, which would likely give us as good of field position as if we'd have kicked deep and held them three and out. Their punter was nailing it, and if they kick from their own 30 or so, he may get a 50 yard net punt.

Of course, there's no guarantee we score either, even if we recover the kick.

Whatever, I liked the call. Am I missing something about the play's design that made it a bad move? Am I way off in my estimates of how often that play works?

[Vaevictis]

From what I recall, WVU was caught with their pants down. Good call, bad execution.

[MI Sooner]

Oh, and kudos to all of you who thought of this one:

Con: it didn't work.

[Rhino]

I'll just repost what I've posted elsewhere:

It was an awful call, whether it worked or not.

We had stopped them twice in the third. We scored a touchdown to close the gap 20-15. We kill all our momentum with a failed two-point conversion. Then we kill any of momentum that may be left with a failed onside kick that gives them the ball 39 yards from the goal line. Five plays later, WVU runs it in for a touchdown.

So, we go from being potentially being down by four points (20-16) with 6:23 left in the third quarter with a defense that is finally clicking to giving them a short field in which they lengthen their lead to 12 points (27-15). And you give back momentum to WVU.

If I hadn't seen that 4th & inches pass to Lance Donley in the 2003 CCG, then I'd say the failed two-point conversion and failed onside kick were the two worst calls during Stoops tenure.

[Leroy Lizard]

I could understand it more if we would have ended up deep in WVU territory by recovering the onside kick. But even if we had recovered it, we were still not going to be in scoring territory.

Bad call.

[tulsaoilerfan]

I'll just repost what I've posted elsewhere:

It was an awful call, whether it worked or not.

We had stopped them twice in the third. We scored a touchdown to close the gap 20-15. We kill all our momentum with a failed two-point conversion. Then we kill any of momentum that may be left with a failed onside kick that gives them the ball 39 yards from the goal line. Five plays later, WVU runs it in for a touchdown.

So, we go from being potentially being down by four points (20-16) with 6:23 left in the third quarter with a defense that is finally clicking to giving them a short field in which they lengthen their lead to 12 points (27-15). And you give back momentum to WVU.

If I hadn't seen that 4th & inches pass to Lance Donley in the 2003 CCG, then I'd say the failed two-point conversion and failed onside kick were the two worst calls during Stoops tenure.

Agree with Rhino here, and i said the same thing to a buddy of mine after it happened; the risk reward factor was not in our favor at that time in the game.

[Sooner Born Sooner Bred]

What Rhino said. Same for the 2 point conversion attempts. At that point in the game, those three calls killed us.

[r5TPsooner]

First of all I support Bob Stoops, but the onside kick call was one of the worst in his career. I felt that it changed the complexion of the game and gave WVU a short field to work with after we just cut the lead to five points. We might have still lost but at least we would have made them possibly work for the score afterwards.

[SanDiegoSoonerGal]

"onside kill call"

Hmmm.

Not making fun of anyone's spelling, just pondering the Freudian slip possibilities.

Because some momentum was certainly brutally murdered at that moment.

[BoulderSooner79]

I disliked the 2 pt attempt almost as much as the on-side. There is not nearly at much at stake on the stats sheet (1pt and no possession), but it costs momentum. Instead of the offense leaving the field elated that they had just scored 10 unanswered, they left feeling a failure. Football is still a game of emotion. One can never know what would have happened playing it safe, but the game sure appeared to change those 2 calls.

[Redgiant2]

It's not like he pulled this out of his ***. It's not like he decided to do that for ****s and giggles. He saw a weakness in their kickoff coverage and tried to exploit what little momentum he had built and break the game open for them. This isn't any different than some of the things he's done before and he's won games because of it. Quit bitching like a bunch of old women because the dopey *** kicker wet noodled the ball 7 yards on a team that was completely unprepared for it and then the D took the field and gave it up like the neighborhood whore for the rest of the game. If these guys are that weak minded there are deeper issues than a botched onside kick.

[rhombic21]

I say good call. If Hartley doesn't kick it short, we recover easily. Hartley is a Senior kicker, you have to trust him to execute in that situation. Play should have worked.

I also think that Stoops recognized that the team had come out flat in the first half, and was looking to get the emotional tide turned in our favor. If we recover that kick and go down and score (WVU really didn't stop us a whole lot in the second half, and I think Bob felt confident that we'd go down and score again if we got the ball back), then the whole feel of the game is different.

I agree, however, that going for 2 that early was a bad decision.

[BoulderSooner79]

I say good call. If Hartley doesn't kick it short, we recover easily. Hartley is a Senior kicker, you have to trust him to execute in that situation. Play should have worked.

I also think that Stoops recognized that the team had come out flat in the first half, and was looking to get the emotional tide turned in our favor. If we recover that kick and go down and score (WVU really didn't stop us a whole lot in the second half, and I think Bob felt confident that we'd go down and score again if we got the ball back), then the whole feel of the game is different.

I agree, however, that going for 2 that early was a bad decision.

I think most would agree with you *if* the team still looked flat. But they didn't as they had just closed from 20-6 to 2-15 with 2 3-and-outs by the D. So the risk appeared to high to gain something (momentum) already possessed. But you can't go back. It could well be that had the on-side kick worked or had Bob just kicked deep WVU still gets clicking and whips us. We need that whole time machine thing to test these theories.:cool:

[KC//CRIMSON]

I'll just repost what I've posted elsewhere:

It was an awful call, whether it worked or not.

We had stopped them twice in the third. We scored a touchdown to close the gap 20-15. We kill all our momentum with a failed two-point conversion. Then we kill any of momentum that may be left with a failed onside kick that gives them the ball 39 yards from the goal line. Five plays later, WVU runs it in for a touchdown.

So, we go from being potentially being down by four points (20-16) with 6:23 left in the third quarter with a defense that is finally clicking to giving them a short field in which they lengthen their lead to 12 points (27-15). And you give back momentum to WVU.

If I hadn't seen that 4th & inches pass to Lance Donley in the 2003 CCG, then I'd say the failed two-point conversion and failed onside kick were the two worst calls during Stoops tenure.

Ditto. It totally killed momentum.

[sooner518]

I thought it was brilliant. I didnt expect it. My friends watching with me didnt expect it. The announcers didnt expect and WVU sure as **** didnt expect it. Poor execution but I loved the call.

My two friends were screaming at the TV earlier in the game about how Stoops was too much of a ***** to do anything out of the ordinary after a particularly conservative call in the first half. After the onside kick, they wouldnt shut up about how it was such a risky, dangerous play. You just cant win with some people

[lauderdalesooner]

Timing makes it a bad call. Onside kicks and trick plays are called momentum changers for a reason, when you already have momentum on your side you don't run them. If he had tried this in the 1st half when things weren't going our way and the team looked flat I'd understand it but you don't try trick plays when you have the momentum.

[Leroy Lizard]

I say good call. If Hartley doesn't kick it short, we recover easily. Hartley is a Senior kicker, you have to trust him to execute in that situation. Play should have worked.

I've changed my mind. If the hole was really there, then I think you go ahead and take a wack at it.

[BoulderSooner79]

I've changed my mind. If the hole was really there, then I think you go ahead and take a wack at it.

I'd have to see the replay, but if the hole was there, then OU should have recovered easily given the kick was short. The kicker did hesitate a split second in the hopes of going 10 yards (another mistake). But if WVU was not lined up right, they couldn't get there that quickly. On a short tap like that the kicker should just fall on the ball and take the penalty and re-kick.

[toneful]

I'll just repost what I've posted elsewhere:

It was an awful call, whether it worked or not.

We had stopped them twice in the third. We scored a touchdown to close the gap 20-15. We kill all our momentum with a failed two-point conversion. Then we kill any of momentum that may be left with failed onside kick that gives them the ball 39 yards from the goal line. Five plays later, WVU runs it in for a touchdown.

So, we go from being potentially being down by four points (20-16) with 6:23 left in the third quarter with a defense that is finally clicking to giving them a short field in which they lengthen their lead to 12 points (27-15). And you give back momentum to WVU.

If I hadn't seen that 4th & inches pass to Lance Donley in the 2003 CCG, then I'd say the failed two-point conversion and failed onside kick were the two worst calls during Stoops tenure.


word.

Also, if you're gonna coach that play in practice, tell your kicker to cover the ball if it ain't going ten yards, before an opponent covers it himself. At least then you get to kick off again, only 5 yards back after the penalty.

[Leroy Lizard]

I'd have to see the replay, but if the hole was there, then OU should have recovered easily given the kick was short. The kicker did hesitate a split second in the hopes of going 10 yards (another mistake). But if WVU was not lined up right, they couldn't get there that quickly. On a short tap like that the kicker should just fall on the ball and take the penalty and re-kick.

Doesn't WVU have the option at that point of taking the ball at the spot?

[Crucifax Autumn]

That's exactly what I was wondering, but I think maybe they only have the option of giving it to us or taking the penalty which results in a re-kick.

Though I may be wrong and I may be either too lazy or too drunk to dig through the rules!

[sooner59]

For what its worth, I was there....10 rows off the field. I don't think it was a bad call. It was a gutsy call in the 3rd quarter, yes, but that was good timing b/c they would not see it coming. The one real problem I had with it was that it didnt go 10 yards.

[Crucifax Autumn]

Same here. Woulda been brilliant had it worked.

[1stTimeCaller]

It was a great call. If it had worked dang near everyone that thinks it was a bad call would be gushing about how that play changed the tone of the game and Brass Balls Bob was back!

Did it not work because WV was prepared for it or did it not work because it wasn't executed properly? Exactly, that's why it was a great call.

Sheesh.

[AlbqSooner]

I have heard posters on this board complain that Stoops and company don't seem to have that "Go for the Throat" mentality. Yes, we had gained momentum at that point in the game. If that play succeeds, we definitely have our foot on their throat. It was a classic hero or goat play. I liked it.

The two point conversion try was correct. If it is successful we are only down 3 and a field goal ties it. If we fail, we need a TD. If we do not take the risk we need a TD. Go for 2 under those circumstances.

[soonernation]

Doesn't WVU have the option at that point of taking the ball at the spot?


I believe that is correct.

If the kick goes 10 yards OU recovers and it's called "one of the gutsiest and BEST calls Stoops has ever made". Because it was not executed correctly everyone thinks it's a bad call. I thought the timing was great. OU has momentum already and if they recover the momentum even gets greater in OU's favor. This is a dead issue for me. Now the 2 point conversions are a different story.

[sooneron]

I'll just repost what I've posted elsewhere:

It was an awful call, whether it worked or not.

We had stopped them twice in the third. We scored a touchdown to close the gap 20-15. We kill all our momentum with a failed two-point conversion. Then we kill any of momentum that may be left with a failed onside kick that gives them the ball 39 yards from the goal line. Five plays later, WVU runs it in for a touchdown.

So, we go from being potentially being down by four points (20-16) with 6:23 left in the third quarter with a defense that is finally clicking to giving them a short field in which they lengthen their lead to 12 points (27-15). And you give back momentum to WVU.

If I hadn't seen that 4th & inches pass to Lance Donley in the 2003 CCG, then I'd say the failed two-point conversion and failed onside kick were the two worst calls during Stoops tenure.
Concur

[Curly Bill]

I'll just repost what I've posted elsewhere:

It was an awful call, whether it worked or not.

We had stopped them twice in the third. We scored a touchdown to close the gap 20-15. We kill all our momentum with a failed two-point conversion. Then we kill any of momentum that may be left with a failed onside kick that gives them the ball 39 yards from the goal line. Five plays later, WVU runs it in for a touchdown.

So, we go from being potentially being down by four points (20-16) with 6:23 left in the third quarter with a defense that is finally clicking to giving them a short field in which they lengthen their lead to 12 points (27-15). And you give back momentum to WVU.

If I hadn't seen that 4th & inches pass to Lance Donley in the 2003 CCG, then I'd say the failed two-point conversion and failed onside kick were the two worst calls during Stoops tenure.

Rhino, as usual, is correct.

[76soonergrad]

I'll just repost what I've posted elsewhere:

It was an awful call, whether it worked or not.

We had stopped them twice in the third. We scored a touchdown to close the gap 20-15. We kill all our momentum with a failed two-point conversion. Then we kill any of momentum that may be left with a failed onside kick that gives them the ball 39 yards from the goal line. Five plays later, WVU runs it in for a touchdown.

So, we go from being potentially being down by four points (20-16) with 6:23 left in the third quarter with a defense that is finally clicking to giving them a short field in which they lengthen their lead to 12 points (27-15). And you give back momentum to WVU.

If I hadn't seen that 4th & inches pass to Lance Donley in the 2003 CCG, then I'd say the failed two-point conversion and failed onside kick were the two worst calls during Stoops tenure.





Sums it up for me.


Worse, it was disturbingly Les Miles-ish. Yuk.

[Curly Bill]

The two point conversion try was correct. If it is successful we are only down 3 and a field goal ties it. If we fail, we need a TD. If we do not take the risk we need a TD. Go for 2 under those circumstances.

Too early in the game to be chasing the two points, take the easy one. The possible benefit of only being down three at that point is negated by the real possibility there will be more scoring before the game is over.

[sooner518]

at the time, I didnt have a huge problem with the 2 pt conversion call. however, as soon as we didnt get it, you could kind of feel the team deflate a little bit and that screwed up some of our mo'. i guess in retrospect, its technically the correct call, but it sure seemed to hurt our psyche

[Soonersince57]

word.

Also, if you're gonna coach that play in practice, tell your kicker to cover the ball if it ain't going ten yards, before an opponent covers it himself. At least then you get to kick off again, only 5 yards back after the penalty.


A-Men to that. All our guys just kind of stared at it like it was radioactive.

[TMcGee86]

I dont have a problem with they call in a philosophical sense. He saw a weakness and he attempted to exploit it. I am glad to hear that.

What I had a problem with, was the timing and situation.

They had been going through us fairly easily. We need to slow the game down. I kick the ball deep and hope that if they do score it takes a while and you are then in a manageable fourth quarter.

As it was, they have 30 yards to score and take no time off the clock.

I would have no problem with that call if we had taken the lead and it was in the middle of the fourth, where it still would be early enough to catch them off guard.


However, if he kicks it two yards more it is a classic play. Probably a game changer.

[Breadburner]

WVU was obviously ready for it......

[colleyvillesooner]

how so? Cause they were 15 yards off the ball with no one in the middle and a guy ran from an angle and got it, only because Hartley was waiting for it to roll?

[cvsooner]

I understand the strategy and I really only had two problems with it: too early and badly executed. It was near-brilliant but it backfired.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Here's the reason not to like it:

(1) With over six minutes left in the third quarter, there was no reason to use it. We'd stopped the Mountaineers three and out twice and had scored twice. We'd recaptured the momentum, and had almost a whole quarter and half of football yet to play.

(2) Our defense was playing three men down - Granger, Smith, and Holmes - and another with a gimpy leg - English. Having just pulled to within one score, why take a chance on giving Pat White the ball in our territory? Especially with a defense that was already depleted and had been kicked around in the first half.

None of it made any sense. None of it. After the touchdown, kick your extra point and it's 20-16 with plenty of ball game left. We had momentum. Kick the ball deep and let the defense try to get another three and out.

But, setting Pat White up at the 38...it's the stupidest call Bob Stoops has ever made in his life next to handing the reigns to Rhett Bomar two quarters into the 2005 season.

You know what I think? I think Bob Stoops needs to take a week off and just go sit at the beach. Relax. Have a few drinks. Build a sand castle. Let the water run up on the beach between his toes. Eat a cheeseburger. Listen to the waves at night as he falls asleep. Pull his head out of his ***. Then, report back to Norman on January 13th to finish recruiting.

[OklahomaRed]

I thought it was a great call. Obviously WV was NOT ready. Crap, Hartley stood there and looked at it for 3 or 4 seconds before a WV player jumped on it. They were totally caught off guard. If OU recovers, we go down and score and we are up by 2. Momentum would have swung OUr way big time. With that said, the team still has to play disciplined ball and quit letting WV crank off 30 yard runs each carry. I think that the deffense's lack of play was a direct result of their team behavior before they ever got on the field.

[rhombic21]

(2) Our defense was playing three men down - Granger, Smith, and Holmes - and another with a gimpy leg - English. Having just pulled to within one score, why take a chance on giving Pat White the ball in our territory? Especially with a defense that was already depleted and had been kicked around in the first half.
The flip side is that if you recover, you give your depleted defense another 3-4 minutes (game clock) to rest, virtually running out the rest of the third quarter, and potentially make WVU play from behind (which they are not known to be good at). You're taking a chance on giving them the short field, but you're also taking a chance to trot your offense back out there (which had their defense gassed and on the ropes), with a chance to seize the lead and deliver a huge blow to WVU's confidence, while at the same time giving your team a significant emotional boost.

You guys do realize that you can't attempt an onside kick unless you score right? So obviously we had to have SOME momentum to try it.

I will state it again. Garret Hartley is a senior kicker, who at one time was a candidate for the kicker of the year award. I'm betting that he executes that play correctly at least 85% of the time, and if he had executed it correctly during the game, it almost certainly would have worked.

[Tear Down This Wall]

There is no flip side.

With a depleted defense, Stoops shouldn't have been gambling. The downside of giving Pat White the ball on the plus side of 50 should have been enough for a little voice in Stoops' head to tell him "No!"

[cvsooner]

I bet Stoops probably wishes he had it back. I think he must've been thinking he needed to do something to get players fired up. It mighta worked. Too much risk, not enough reward, I suppose.

[rhombic21]

There is no flip side.

With a depleted defense, Stoops shouldn't have been gambling. The downside of giving Pat White the ball on the plus side of 50 should have been enough for a little voice in Stoops' head to tell him "No!"
Based on what I saw out of the defense for the rest of the game, I don't know why you're so sure that we would have stopped them regardless of where they started with the ball. I would take the opposite side. With a depleted defense, against an offense that can run the ball as well as they do, with the speed that they have, you almost have to take some chances and try to steal a possession or two. I believe Stoops knew this, and that's why we went for several of the 4th downs, and tried this onside kick. Stoops figured that we needed to keep their offense off the field as much as possible to win the game. In the end it didn't work, but that doesn't mean it was a bad call. It just means we didn't execute the call correctly.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Before the onside kick, the defense was shutting down WVU. Handing Pat White the ball at the 38 was a gift. The momentum we worked hard to regain was basically trickled back to WVU in a foolhardy call by a coach who should know better.

[aero]

Sorry, didn't read all of the posts so I may be repeating. I did not like the call(s) at all. WVU seemed to have all of the mo up to that point and it just seemed to be turning after we scored and the D seemed to be coming around a bit. Yes, hindsight is 20/20 and if it had worked it would have seemed genius. I like when Bob gambles and tries trick plays for the most part but at those particular instances my initial reaction was "WHY?" We go for 2 when there is plenty of game left and fail - negative mojo for us. Then the onside when, once again, plenty of game left, and muff it giving them a short field. Again - negative mojo for the team. Both plays reeked of desparation and it seemed way too early for that. I wonder how the D felt knowing they had just started to stop them and now they have to protect a short field or we was definitely in a hole. Trick plays that don't work usually don't make me feel too bad but the 2 pt. fail and the muff O/S kick both instantly made me feel like we had just gave the game away. And no, I don't want to fire Bob. It was 1 game. Gee, we've been playing football for a century and only won 7 NC's so I don't expect to win it every year.....well, maybe I do, but I am a realist. I don't want to wish bad on Mike Stoops but I wish he could come back. We've got talent but seem to be missing the attitude.

[MI Sooner]

(2) Our defense was playing three men down - Granger, Smith, and Holmes - and another with a gimpy leg - English. Having just pulled to within one score, why take a chance on giving Pat White the ball in our territory? Especially with a defense that was already depleted and had been kicked around in the first half.

Sorry, but this is an argument for the onside kick. If we recover, the defense spends less time on the field. If they recover, the defense spends less time on the field.

[MI Sooner]

Before the onside kick, the defense was shutting down WVU

That's not the way I remember it. I think they had one three and out in the second half, right (or not right?)? Pat White missed some wide open receivers on third and short to stop drives. I remember thinking, "We need to score every possession if we want to win."

As for those saying it was too soon, I ask for clarification. The reason I liked the call was due to the element of surprise. If you wait until late in the 4th quarter, then it's not a surprise. Do you mean that you may have liked the call if we'd done it one possession later?

[rhombic21]

Before the onside kick, the defense was shutting down WVU. Handing Pat White the ball at the 38 was a gift. The momentum we worked hard to regain was basically trickled back to WVU in a foolhardy call by a coach who should know better.
No, we weren't. Before the onside kick we had already given up 20 points, and they had missed 2 FGs and had several drops on third and medium. They moved the ball all night.

[Curly Bill]

Ultimately it did not work and so was a bad decision. Had it worked...well, it would have been a great decision.

Still say going for the 2-point conversion midway through the 3rd quarter was a dumb move.

[arlington]

Timing is EVERYTHING when deciding a good time for a trick play..The Bama game '03 we were ahead most of the game, then they started making plays and we were holding on..We needed to try something to get the momentum back so , Voila, fake punt..Last night KU dominates the first half, but Va Tech owned the 3rd quarter. 4 straight non productive drives by KU and the ball at there 45. Tech guys come in to block the punt and leave gunners open..Audible to fake punt=great time, as they needed something to regain the 1st half momentum..

As opposed to OU, we had ALL the momentum the first 8 minutes of the third quarter, moving up and down the field, making stops, tons of time left and then our 3 million dollar man reverts into Todd Dodge, thinking he is the coach at UNT and a 3 td underdog.

Dont freakin blame Hartley! You think it is easy to approach the ball like you are going to kick it deep only to dribble it, but you cant kick it too hard because a rolling ball is easier to recover, so kick it real softly and since you are obviously the most athletic guy on the team, you recover it yourself..

Not only was this the poorest time to call this play, it wasnt coached well at all..If you have an onside kick of that type, the key is to get the players next to the kicker to go blow the front line guys up so the kicker can recover the ball unobstructed.Considering the pile of WV players on the ball, this play should be burned forever in the playbook..

[Soonerus]

Since it did not work it was a bad call and poorly executed...

[Cam]

Agree 100%.


I'll just repost what I've posted elsewhere:

It was an awful call, whether it worked or not.

We had stopped them twice in the third. We scored a touchdown to close the gap 20-15. We kill all our momentum with a failed two-point conversion. Then we kill any of momentum that may be left with a failed onside kick that gives them the ball 39 yards from the goal line. Five plays later, WVU runs it in for a touchdown.

So, we go from being potentially being down by four points (20-16) with 6:23 left in the third quarter with a defense that is finally clicking to giving them a short field in which they lengthen their lead to 12 points (27-15). And you give back momentum to WVU.

If I hadn't seen that 4th & inches pass to Lance Donley in the 2003 CCG, then I'd say the failed two-point conversion and failed onside kick were the two worst calls during Stoops tenure.

[TXBOOMER]

When Garrett Hartley is kicking it, it works 0% of the time. That one didn't go ten yards and remember the pathetic attempt a TTech. We must not practice the onside kick much. Hell, even if we do recover it the refs give it to the other team (DUCKS).

[Vaevictis]

Dont freakin blame Hartley! You think it is easy to approach the ball like you are going to kick it deep only to dribble it, but you cant kick it too hard because a rolling ball is easier to recover, so kick it real softly and since you are obviously the most athletic guy on the team, you recover it yourself..

Hartley is a great kicker. But the fact is, the ball didn't go ten yards. That's on him. Sorry, it just is.

[arlington]

Right, lets blame Hartley that his play couldnt offset a dumb coaching move..2 straight 3 and outs and the undermanned D deserved better, Period. I guess by your logic, if i send my 13 year old to drive the car to the store, its her fault when she runs the car into a tree..Sure Hartley messed up the execution, but i assert it was a dumb call regardless of the outcome of the play.Doesnt anyone know how to measure risk/reward on this board?

[Vaevictis]

Right, lets blame Hartley that his play couldnt offset a dumb coaching move..2 straight 3 and outs and the undermanned D deserved better, Period.

If Hartley kicks it ten yards, we have a chance to recover it. If we recover it, there isn't a single one of you that would say it was a dumb coaching move. You'd all be worshiping Big Game Bob's Brass Balls. Just like the Alabama fake punt.


I guess by your logic, if i send my 13 year old to drive the car to the store, its her fault when she runs the car into a tree..

Hartley ain't a 13 year old driver. He's the starting kicker at OU, which means he's one level below being in the NFL. A more reasonable analogy would be if you sent a highly skilled driver -- who is probably good enough to turn pro some day -- and they ran the car into a tree.

And yeah, damned straight it's the drivers fault.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not taking a dump on Hartley. He's a great kicker, and it's a low percentage play. But to say it isn't on him is pretty silly. There's no defenders, and it's a dome so there's no weather. It's just him, the ball, and the tee.


Sure Hartley messed up the execution, but i assert it was a dumb call regardless of the outcome of the play.Doesnt anyone know how to measure risk/reward on this board?

And that's fine. Whether it was a bad call is separate from whether Hartley is to blame for the failure to execute.

I think it's completely reasonable to say that Hartley can be blamed for the result of the play and that Bob can be blamed for the consequences of it.

[MI Sooner]

Dont freakin blame Hartley! You think it is easy to approach the ball like you are going to kick it deep only to dribble it, but you cant kick it too hard because a rolling ball is easier to recover, so kick it real softly and since you are obviously the most athletic guy on the team, you recover it yourself.

Well since he had a month to practice and I've seen other guys execute the exact same kick numerous times, I don't think it was unreasonable. I'm not saying a good kicker can do it every time.

[tulsaoilerfan]

Hartley flat out didn't kick the ball well; if the kick is a good one, we probably recover; having said that, i still disagree with the call because it seemed like an unnecessary gamble that early in the game

[No1Better]

Good call - bad execution. They should have come up with something better than the same play Florida ran against FSU in the Sugar Bowl years back.

[okcusooner]

Simply a bad call.

With a defense missing three starters, I'd rather make Pat White direct
a 70-80 yard drive rather than a 35 yard drive.

Many people have mentioned poor execution on the part of Hartley. However, even had he executed the kick perfectly, there is still the risk that we don't recover. Remember the '06 Texas A&M game?

Unfortunately, I was at the game. You could feel the air sucked out of OU's sails after the play. I knew then and there the game was over.

[aero]

Based on what I saw out of the defense for the rest of the game, I don't know why you're so sure that we would have stopped them regardless of where they started with the ball. I would take the opposite side. With a depleted defense, against an offense that can run the ball as well as they do, with the speed that they have, you almost have to take some chances and try to steal a possession or two. I believe Stoops knew this, and that's why we went for several of the 4th downs, and tried this onside kick. Stoops figured that we needed to keep their offense off the field as much as possible to win the game. In the end it didn't work, but that doesn't mean it was a bad call. It just means we didn't execute the call correctly.

rhombic21, you might have a very good point, which I didn't think about. I didn't like either the 2 pt. try nor the onside and maybe still don't but you hit on something that made me wonder. Maybe with the way the team was playing, with key players out and some not 100%, Bob realized we were in for a long night and took some shots that may have given us somewhat of a chance. It looked like we were going to have to work for points and recovering the O/S kick would have kept the D off the field as well as shifted momentum big time. Maybe we just weren't going to compete with WVU straight up and Bob knew it.

[Redgiant2]

Stoops was trying to get the game closer and keep building momentum. The kicker flat out limp noodled the ball. I'm sure he saw something in their kick coverage and took a calculated risk that SHOULD'VE worked. He did catch them with their pants around their ankles and it would've been just fine had the ball been kicked properly. Good play call, good timing, very bad execution. When would you want him to call it, late in the fourth quarter when they knew it was coming???

[okcusooner]

Stoops was trying to get the game closer and keep building momentum. The kicker flat out limp noodled the ball. I'm sure he saw something in their kick coverage and took a calculated risk that SHOULD'VE worked. He did catch them with their pants around their ankles and it would've been just fine had the ball been kicked properly. Good play call, good timing, very bad execution. When would you want him to call it, late in the fourth quarter when they knew it was coming???


SHOULD'VE worked had the ball been kicked properly? (bold added by me)

Again, see the '06 A&M game. Perfect kick by Hartley and two Sooners muff clear chances at recovery. The risk of an on-sides kick continues even if the kick is good

[lauderdalesooner]

Trick plays and onside kicks are called momentum changers for a reason, you don't call them when you have the momentum. I've seen the Bama game referenced here several times, that's a completely different situation. We had the lead in that game and the momentum had shifted to Bama, we were trying to hold on there and Stoops called the fake to change the momentum of the game. Also read that if your kicking off then you must have momentum, that's simply not true. Your defense could have caused a turnover and gave the offense the ball in a 1st and goal and then only scored 3 points, in that case you'd be kicking off but the other team would have the momentum after holding you to just a FG. It's simple really you don't call a "Momentum Changer" when you have the momentum.

[soonergooner]

"Agree with Rhino here, and i said the same thing to a buddy of mine after it happened; the risk reward factor was not in our favor at that time in the game.
Same for the 2 point conversion attempts. At that point in the game, those three calls killed us."
Totally agree, all three contributed to the eviseration of a fragile momentum change in our favor to one that had us questioning the coaches sanity. (that continues to this day)

[opksooner]

I've let it go.

......just sayin'