Div II Championship Game Observations

[PLaw]

Watching Valdosta St & NW Mo. there are a couple of painful observations:

1) Div 2 and 3 kids are smarter than Div. 1. They must be because all we hear from Div 1 administrators is that a playoff would hurt the players academically. Looks like these Div 2 and 3 kids are playing through finals week.

2) Human polls are worthless as the tits on a bore hog. Big news, huh? The No. 5 and No. 8 teams are playing for the championship. Moreover, No. 5 beat three of the four season end top ranked teams all of which were undefeated.

3) It's a misnomer that the playoff games have to be at a neutral site. Maybe the championship game, but in preceding games home field could be decided in the same manner as the lower divisions.

BOOMER

[Blues1]

As long as they play the National Game in fairly warm stadium location The fans would show up....JMHO....!!

[Collier11]

no the real problem is the presidents and AD's think D1 fans are dumber than D2 and 3 because those fans know a playoff can and does work!

[OklahomaTuba]

Another real problem is Div 1 is only about money and making the conferences & bowls money. The other divisions are about the sport.

[badger]

Another real problem is Div 1 is only about money and making the conferences & bowls money. The other divisions are about the sport.
I'm sure the schools are losing money to send the teams, too. That's not always the case with huge bowl games... sometimes, not always. Conference payouts overall usually even out the pot.

My mother's alma mater UW-Whitewater wins a championship... wow. I've been to a Div. 3 game (UW-Stevens Point) and while they have fanatical fans, they are far fewer in number. It's just like high school. Your fans and your alumni come out to the game, then leave afterward. No big tailgating, pregame or anything else, just come out, have fun, then move on.

It's a big deal to them to win, I'm sure. They are probably drinking their 20th beer as we speak :D

[Leroy Lizard]

Just because the games were played tells us nothing. I already know that it is physically possible to play the games through final exams. If you stage the game, the players will show up. They have to. But that's what worries me.

The problem with playing through final exams is the difficulty in concentrating on academics with the pressure of winning in big-time sports. You cannot compare the pressure to win at the Div. 1A level to Div II.

Final exams are important. That is a fact. Does anyone here dispute that?

Being able to concentrate on studying for final exams is important. That is also a fact. Anyone disagree?

Big-time sporting events are a mental distraction for the players involved. That is also a fact. Agreed?

Therefore, playing through final exams can only hurt students academically. And that is all there is to it.

Now, maybe the players in Div. II were actually hurt academically. If so, we would never learn about it. I can't even find attendance figures on the game.

Maybe Div. II players are more academically inclined and can overcome the distractions. I have no idea. I doubt anyone else in here knows either.

Or could it be that the external pressure to win in Div. II is unlike that in Div. IA? The stadium where the Div. II game was played seats only 14,000 people. Frisco High School's stadium is bigger than that, and by a large margin. I would also be willing to bet that less than 5% of college sports fans even knew which teams were competing for the title before it was played.

[OKLA21FAN]

Therefore, playing through final exams can only hurt students academically. And that is all there is to it.

Doesn't seem to bother those D1A basketball players that have been playing all week and next.

just sayin

[jkjsooner]

Lizard,

Football players miss less class than almost any sport. In baseball they miss a TON of classes and they miss quite a bit in basketball. Basketball players are under just as much pressure as football players. Both basketball and baseball players play through finals...

Simply put, every sport puts pressure on the athletes academically. In the real world people respect that and recognize the unique life lessons (handling stress/balancing schedules/etc) that athletes learn. That's why the guys who take the academics seriously tend to do very well after graduation. Once they've been through the rigors of playing sports at the university level, law school or medical school is not nearly as big of a deal as it is to others.

Anyway, if you are serious about your view on academics then I suggest you start a push to change how every other sport and every other division is handled. Otherwise, it's just a little hypocritical....

[Leroy Lizard]

Doesn't seem to bother those D1A basketball players that have been playing all week and next.


Only a psycho would offer the sport with the lowest graduation rates as proof that playoffs are not a hindrance to grades. Brilliant move!

[Leroy Lizard]

Lizard,

Football players miss less class than almost any sport. In baseball they miss a TON of classes and they miss quite a bit in basketball. Basketball players are under just as much pressure as football players. Both basketball and baseball players play through finals...

So your argument is that, since we are screwing up the academics of college basketball players, then there is nothing wrong with screwing up the academics of college football players?


Simply put, every sport puts pressure on the athletes academically.

And that is not a good reason to increase it.

Your argument is so patently ridiculous. No reasonable person can say that, since a problem occurs in one area, it is okay to increase the problem in another.


In the real world people respect that and recognize the unique life lessons (handling stress/balancing schedules/etc) that athletes learn. That's why the guys who take the academics seriously tend to do very well after graduation. Once they've been through the rigors of playing sports at the university level, law school or medical school is not nearly as big of a deal as it is to others.

You are offering an ad hoc rationalization for increasing the academic burden on students using the lame "it builds character" crap, all because you want to be entertained more during the holidays. How can any reasonable person suggest that placing additional burdens on student-athletes to succeed academically is good for them? Is that what the playoff proponents' arguments have been reduced to? Is that really the best you can do?


Anyway, if you are serious about your view on academics then I suggest you start a push to change how every other sport and every other division is handled.

I wish you would at least examine your arguments before you post them. First, your statement is a fallacy: That the only way to show concern is to attack a problem wherever it occurs and however it may cost; anything else is hypocrisy. That is total bull**** and no one can operate under such constraints. It is possible to be concerned about poverty and speak out against policies that increase poverty without becoming a charity volunteer.

Second, what has occurred in other sports is now a done deal. You can never go back. There is no way to correct the problems of playoffs once the playoffs have become institutionalized, so attacking the problem in other divisions is pointless.

Besides, I am not leading an active campaign to preserve the bowl system, no more than I am leading the charge to eliminate poverty in the world. I am simply offering my opinions on the issue.

[OKLA21FAN]

Only a psycho would offer the sport with the lowest graduation rates as proof that playoffs are not a hindrance to grades. Brilliant move!

wow,
grad rates? since when does the NCAA dare about that?

thats a new low (heck mens and womins soccer is just now rapping up as well, just a hunch, but im thinking those respective sports have a pretty high grad rates, if that was really the issue.

so what you are saying is that the NCAA doesn't 'care' as much about those BBall players and for some strange reason cares more about football players?

[OKLA21FAN]

Besides, I am not leading an active campaign to preserve the bowl system, no more than I am leading the charge to eliminate poverty in the world. I am simply offering my opinions on the issue.
what we have here is a crusader :pop:
http://www.sulinet.hu/eletmod/kultura/mozi/vidiota/aszakasz/szakasz2.jpg

[sanantoniosooner]

Thank God somebody finally gave an opinion on this topic around here.

I thought we were ignoring it altogether.

[Leroy Lizard]

grad rates? since when does the NCAA dare about that?

Why should that influence how much we care? Explain your reasoning, because I have no clue as to what you are attempting to prove.


thats a new low (heck mens and womins soccer is just now rapping up as well, just a hunch, but im thinking those respective sports have a pretty high grad rates, if that was really the issue.

I am sure badminton plays through finals as well. But I highly doubt the external pressure to win is anything close to that of football. Besides, it is quite possible (and even likely) that their graduation rates would be even higher if the players were given more time to study for their final exams. (Who could even argue otherwise?)

I have already detailed precisely why playing through final exams is harmful to academic success. You are trying to deny the obvious.


so what you are saying is that the NCAA doesn't 'care' as much about those BBall players and for some strange reason cares more about football players?

I have no idea, and I fail to see how it even matters. Again, you can't point to a problem in one area and say that it excuses problems in all other areas.

[OKLA21FAN]

Leroy. I think you simply exposed the hypocrisy of the NCAA and college athletics in general if you think that the ones benefiting monetarily from these athletes give a rats about these kid's education.

and anyone who uses 'finals' or education card as an excuse is being just a hypocritical.

[sanantoniosooner]

and anyone who uses 'finals' or education card as an excuse is being just a hypocritical.
I think this is an unfair blanket statement.

[OKLA21FAN]

I think this is an unfair blanket statement.

if the NCAA would apply their philosophy to all other sports ,you would be very correct and it would be unfair :pop:

[sanantoniosooner]

if the NCAA would apply their philosophy to all other sports ,you would be very correct and it would be unfair :pop:
but when you say "anyone" you are including more than just ncaa officials. You are including faculty, student government, parents, alumni, and even innocent bystanders.

[Collier11]

Here we go again, Lizard tried to offer up this exact same argument in the big playoff debate of 3 weeks ago and I shot down everyone of his so called arguments. This is a retarded argument and every part of it has no validity, SO GET OVER IT! These guys arent being hurt anymore than when I missed 5-10 days of school a year in highschool for athletics.

[OKLA21FAN]

but when you say "anyone" you are including more than just ncaa officials. You are including faculty, student government, parents, alumni, and even innocent bystanders.
everyone but the Irish!!!

[Leroy Lizard]

Leroy. I think you simply exposed the hypocrisy of the NCAA and college athletics in general if you think that the ones benefiting monetarily from these athletes give a rats about these kid's education.

Under no circumstances am I defending the NCAA. In fact, I am very critical of the NCAA.

Since I am not an NCAA official, I fail to see how any one of your arguments apply to me or how they can even be remotely persuasive.

[Leroy Lizard]

Here we go again, Lizard tried to offer up this exact same argument in the big playoff debate of 3 weeks ago and I shot down everyone...

Ye olde "claim victory" argument. Good grief.


These guys arent being hurt anymore than when I missed 5-10 days of school a year in highschool for athletics.

Truth by blatant assertion.

C'mon, you can't do better than this?

[bluedogok]

Funny, most college students are done with classes/finals for the semester now (barring weather reasons) until the middle of January. So yeah, it is really costing them class time :rolleyes:

I am not a big playoff proponent or opponent, I kind of like the bowl games but I would watch the games whether there are bowl games or a playoff. It is just using the "class time" excuse is lame when the majority of classes are out during the period when the playoffs would occur. This is not the case in most other sports that already have a playoff as most of them occur right in the middle of when school is in session. All other sports lose more class time due to their sport than football does.

[Collier11]

Ye olde "claim victory" argument. Good grief.



Truth by blatant assertion.

C'mon, you can't do better than this?


Well we can go back to that argument and see how you didnt respond to many of my charges that you were in fact misguided in your attempt to act like academics is being squandered by football! In fact, the vast majority of these student/athletes are allowed to take tests at a different time than others, have free access to traveling tutors when they cant be present, and have greater leniancy and grace in turning in assignments. Most of which the basic student does not have access to, also they are put on firm degree programs that keep them on track for a 4 year graduation whereas myself and every other student get to deal with the jackazz public advisors who could care less what I take and whether it takes 4 or 14 years as long as it brings in money to the university.

I would challenge that university athletes academic career is more challenge by deans and professors than missing any class time, such is the same for general students. when the majority of teachers are more about putting their name out there and not allowing what they teach to be challenged, questioned, or denied is blatant miseducation. We have professors all over the country who teach their beliefs and their ideals of a topic to their full understanding and will not allow it to be investigated to a truth which is supposed to be the main premise behind scholarship and academia!

[Collier11]

I myself have had teachers in the past who wouldnt excuse me or a friend due to death, sickness, etc. and we as general students suffer for that, these student athletes that you are so worried about are catered to academically regardless of situation! Your ideals are arrogant and incorrect, as well as not being thoroughly thought out, they are misrepresented and have no backing of proof!

[goingoneight]

I guess some people will never realize that there is only one sport in all of athletics not decided by some kind of a playoff.

Look, sometimes, we can all agree that the best teams made the final show. Any defense that can completely shut down Florida State's offense in 2000 deserved to be there (2001 Orange Bowl). Anyone who could contain USC's offense and keep up with them deserved to be there in 2005 (2006 Rose Bowl). Too many people are looking at names, conference and record to determine a champion. I agree that a record is important; it keeps the regular season important week in, week out. A 9-4 Sunbelt Champion who lost to FSU, Texas, USC and Notre Dame in OOC doesn't deserve to play with that same company in the post-season. That's why people dislike the playoff ideas.

OTOH, you have teams that for one reason or another might have dropped a loss, or just flat-out get snubbed, when they may be overall the best team in the country (A.K.A. = the "champion"). Upsets are important in my book. However, only for one reason... rank. If Meatchicken loses to OSU, but wins their conference outright... no way should they be ranked higher than someone else just because of "conference strength." People said OUr conference sucked several times now just because it wasn't the ESPN flavor-of-the-year, but did we not produce three National Champions in it's 13-year existence? People said the WAC sucked, so Boise State must not be fast/strong/good/well-coached enough to keep up with the elite. That may be true on December 31st (in your imagination/opinion), but then they go and take down a "juggernaut" in stylish fashion (2007 Fiesta Bowl). Just try and tell a Sooner fan with a straight face you weren't impressed by the execution, speed and style Boise State beat us with. Seven days later, two more "juggernauts" play and it's an embarassment of a "game" (2006/7 MNC Game) which furthermore proves why the system that put it in place is stupid.

If you are a proponent of the BCS, then you need to understand that the Boise State's don't belong, which is untrue. They'll never be invited to games they deserve to play in, given more of a participation trophy for being every bit as good as the so-called "big dogs."

Great tradition means you win a lot of games, have a great history, presence and future. It doesn't automatically mean you're better than your opponent on gameday. That's why people who approve of the BCS are ridiculed, that's why stupid people want coaches fired on rebuilding years because they're not "good enough" and that's why ADs schedule so conservatively.

[Rock Hard Corn Frog]

Watching Valdosta St & NW Mo. there are a couple of painful observations:

1) Div 2 and 3 kids are smarter than Div. 1. They must be because all we hear from Div 1 administrators is that a playoff would hurt the players academically. Looks like these Div 2 and 3 kids are playing through finals week.

2) Human polls are worthless as the tits on a bore hog. Big news, huh? The No. 5 and No. 8 teams are playing for the championship. Moreover, No. 5 beat three of the four season end top ranked teams all of which were undefeated.

3) It's a misnomer that the playoff games have to be at a neutral site. Maybe the championship game, but in preceding games home field could be decided in the same manner as the lower divisions.

BOOMER

I don't really have a comment on #1 but NWMO hosted the semifinal game against #1 Grand Valley St despite having lost a game this year while Grand Valley was undefeated. DII uses a playoff qualifying system that makes the BCS look brilliant by comparison.

I've posted it in another thread but a few years ago Central MO beat Pitt St 81-27 and finished with a better record..PSU hosted a playoff game while CMSU missed the playoffs because PSU had a stronger SOS.

I'm not saying a playoff won't work but we don't want a system where we beat Texas A&M by 50 points and finish 10-2 but A&M goes to the playoffs with a 9-3 record based on strength of their non-conference wins. Let alone make the playoffs as a #1 team yet have to play AT #5 USC in a semifinal game.

Contrary to widespread belief the DII playoff system is a mess.

[Leroy Lizard]

Funny, most college students are done with classes/finals for the semester now (barring weather reasons) until the middle of January. So yeah, it is really costing them class time

With the present bowl system, class time isn't too much of a problem. I agree.

Now, with a playoff system...


I am not a big playoff proponent or opponent, I kind of like the bowl games but I would watch the games whether there are bowl games or a playoff. It is just using the "class time" excuse is lame when the majority of classes are out during the period when the playoffs would occur.

Not in a 16-team playoff. This isn't Div. IAA. We have conference championship games to play, which soaks up one week right there. And once you have to begin the playoffs after the first weekend in December, there simply are not enough weeks before the next semester begins to get all the games in, without playing right before or right after final exam week. Just look at the calendar.

Now, a four-team playoff can manage it. An eight-team playoff might be able to, although I doubt it. But a 16-team playoff is going to be untenable if you don't want final exam performance infringed. And any playoff will become a 16-team playoff.


This is not the case in most other sports that already have a playoff as most of them occur right in the middle of when school is in session.

If you want to shorten the season and remove the CCGs, sure. That isn't going to happen.

[Leroy Lizard]

Well we can go back to that argument and see how you didnt respond to many of my charges that you were in fact misguided in your attempt to act like academics is being squandered by football! In fact, the vast majority of these student/athletes are allowed to take tests at a different time than others, have free access to traveling tutors when they cant be present, and have greater leniancy and grace in turning in assignments.

I am a prof. I will tell you right now that I am NOT going to give the student-athlete in my class his final exam at a different time and I am NOT going to let him turn in work late. And there is nothing you or the athletic department can do about it.

You cannot DEPEND on such amenities because professors are under no obligation to comply. I keep telling you this and you seem to be unable to understand it.


Most of which the basic student does not have access to, also they are put on firm degree programs that keep them on track for a 4 year graduation whereas myself and every other student get to deal with the jackazz public advisors who could care less what I take and whether it takes 4 or 14 years as long as it brings in money to the university.

This is pure jealousy, and a lousy argument. I am sure they have complaints about you as well: "Lazy student doesn't have to practice every morning like I have to."

I cannot believe the reasoning playoff proponents rely on to bolster their arguments. "Waaah! The athlete is already given tutors... and has all the hot chicks, so we should be able to wack him during final exams!"

They call this "rationalization."


I would challenge that university athletes academic career is more challenge by deans and professors than missing any class time, such is the same for general students. when the majority of teachers are more about putting their name out there and not allowing what they teach to be challenged, questioned, or denied is blatant miseducation.

We have professors all over the country who teach their beliefs and their ideals of a topic to their full understanding and will not allow it to be investigated to a truth which is supposed to be the main premise behind scholarship and academia!

Take it from me: If your English professor is giving you a low grade on essays, it is not because he is squelching your desire for inquiry.

[Leroy Lizard]

I guess some people will never realize that there is only one sport in all of athletics not decided by some kind of a playoff.

Not true. Boxing.

[PLaw]

With the present bowl system, class time isn't too much of a problem. I agree.

No joke. How many Division 1 athletes, regardless of the sport, are taking more than 12 hours per semester? With one of those classes either keyboarding or fun machine, how hard can it be.

Boomer

[Leroy Lizard]

I myself have had teachers in the past who wouldnt excuse me or a friend due to death, sickness, etc. and we as general students suffer for that...

Take it from me. If you die, you are excused from my final exams.


these student athletes that you are so worried about are catered to academically regardless of situation!

Again, the jealousy argument isn't a very good one. It doesn't matter how much more sympathy they get from their profs or how many more times they get laid by chicks, playing through final exams is still a bad idea.

We can justify any argument if we simply argue that those who are hurt by certain policies "deserve it anyway." In fact, it is the same justification used to raise taxes on the rich just because they are rich.

[Collier11]

I am not jealous at all so I am not sure where you got that from Lizard? Yea, I wish I could live the life of a college athlete but I had my shot and got cut, at that point athletics was no longer the focal point.

You cant use your individual mandates as a professor to speak for everyone, I can give you a professor for each and every situation I have spelled out.

Playing thru finals would not have to happen, but lets stick with that portion of your argument. So how about those students who have to work 40 hours a week or have a child to take care of, are they not given a fair shake cus they have to fit in studying from time to time? These athletes can find time to study and take tests, you say you wont let a athlete retake an exam but why do they have to, I have seen literally 15 cases that the student(not even an athlete) was allowed to take the test at an earlier date or on an individual basis so he doesnt have to miss the test, that allows for the student to be treated fairly and not to have to ask for more time due to academics. Student athletes every day take tests on the road before games, this is allowed by school policy with a monitor present, why would that not work? And you forget that college bball players who make it to the tourney are missing two days a week for up to a month, football players would only have to miss fridays if games were on saturdays, its really not a big deal and you are making it out to seem impossible.

And one final point, I have witnessed personally and read about several cases where teachers/professors refuse to accept a challenge to their knowledge, where if you challenge them you get kicked out of class or pubicly chastised and embarrassed for having the nerve, you professors have one big problem, alot of you(not all) think that you are never wrong and we as students have no right to challenge you or damned we be!! I challenged a professor in as luck would have it a English class and you know what he did, he flunked me! Believe me or not, he flunked me straight up. I will be the first to admit that I was not a straight A student and there were times in my college career that class was something I had to do rather than something I took advantage of, but just like you are doing now, some of you refuse to accept the fact that there are other answers out there other than yours that can work!!!

[Collier11]

Not true. Boxing.



:rolleyes:

This answer right here proves that you have no desire to listen or learn!

[Collier11]

Take it from me. If you die, you are excused from my final exams.



Pompous!! You remind me of so many before you!

I wouldnt be surprised if you were the very same professor that I saw on campus who was calling Iraq soldiers murderers, then was approached by a Marine who had served in Iraq and laid into the professor, he just sat there quivering and ****ing down his leg because for once someone had the nerve to come at him and he had nothing to say in return because he finally wasnt in a place of power with his little red pen!

I have the utmost respect for teachers and professors and learned alot from both, but it is those with the attitude of yourself that really inhibit learning and understanding!

[Collier11]

Lets see just for the sake of arguing some more if this could work

Each team gets 11 regular season games which was the norm up until two years ago instead of 12, you throw in a conf title game for those that play it and either 3 or 4 playoff games depending on 8 or 16 teams. That is 14 or 15 games tops which is just one more than they play now in a normal season if you have a conf title games.

This year the season started on September 2nd and could easily start on aug 25th if need be(several schools play games before the academic year starts so arguing against this is not valid, but we will keep sep 2nd) From September 2nd-January 7th which is when the title game is this year there are 19 saturdays...so we have 15 games to play tops in 19 weeks, last I checked that allows for 1 bye week which is all that OU had this year plus three weeks for dead week and finals. Tell me how this wont work please, really curious?

Here is a sample schedule:
Sept 2nd-game
sept 9th-game
sept 16th-game
sept 23rd-game
sept 30-game
oct 6th-game
oct 13th-game
oct 20th-bye week
oct 27th-game
nov 3rd-game
nov 10th-game
nov 17th-game
nov 24th-off week or open to those who dont have conf title games
Dec 1st-conf title games
Dec 8th- off/dead week and finals
Dec 15th-off/dead week and finals
Dec 22nd- Rd 1 of playoffs
Dec 29th- Rd 2 or semis for 8 team
Jan 5th-Semis for 16 team or Finals for 8 team
Jan 12th- Finals for 16 team

Please tell me how this wouldnt work, i'd love to hear it? If you notice, there is an extra off week at the end that could be used for earlier finals if need be

[Curly Bill]

You guys sure expend a lot of energy over something we as fans have little to no control over. My life has improved remarkably, and I've been a much more stress free poster since I quit weighing in on these playoff / anti-playoff threads.

...just sayin :D

[sooneron]

I still haven't heard a good argument as to why any team that is not in the top ten deserves to play for the title.


edit: and please don't post "well why not?"

[Curly Bill]

OK, one more thing: those of you that want a playoff quit wasting your time trying to convert the peeps on here that are unconvinced about a playoff, start writing letters to university presidents.

[Leroy Lizard]

Pompous!! You remind me of so many before you!

I wouldnt be surprised if you were the very same professor that I saw on campus who was calling Iraq soldiers murderers, then was approached by a Marine who had served in Iraq and laid into the professor, he just sat there quivering and ****ing down his leg because for once someone had the nerve to come at him and he had nothing to say in return because he finally wasnt in a place of power with his little red pen!

So, I get the feeling... that you don't respect that professor? It's hard to tell since you mask your true feelings so well.


I have the utmost respect for teachers and professors and learned alot from both, but it is those with the attitude of yourself that really inhibit learning and understanding!

Okay, okay, okay. I changed my mind. I thought it over, and you are absolutely right. I need to change my final exam policy. So if you die, you still have to take my final exam.

(Will he get the joke? Hell no.)

[Leroy Lizard]

several schools play games before the academic year starts so arguing against this is not valid

Arguing against this idea is perfectly valid. Those teams that start in September are often on the quarter system; they don't begin classes until almost October. Asking them to start play in August is difficult since you are talking about weeks before classes even begin.

Yet another example of overgeneralization by playoff proponents: because Team X can begin on Aug. 25, then Team Y must be able to as well. This isn't the NFL, each university has its own schedule for the beginning of the school year (final exams too).

Now, I am not suggesting that starting all games in August is intractable. There are not too many teams on the quarter system. (Notre Dame is one of them, though.) Just be wary of making hasty generalizations and assuming everyone will line up according to plan. College athletics and universities are complicated systems. This isn't like the NFL where you have only one purpose and one governing body.


Each team gets 11 regular season games which was the norm up until two years ago instead of 12,

How do you plan on selling your idea to athletic directors? That's lost revenue for teams, especially the smaller schools which bank on visiting powerhouses for easy paydays but have no chance of earning money playing in the playoffs.

Again, another example of a playoff proponent not thinking things through.

[Leroy Lizard]

I wouldnt be surprised if you were the very same professor that I saw on campus who was calling Iraq soldiers murderers, then was approached by a Marine who had served in Iraq and laid into the professor, he just sat there quivering and ****ing down his leg because for once someone had the nerve to come at him and he had nothing to say in return because he finally wasnt in a place of power with his little red pen!

Little red pen. Hmmm.... little red pen. Where have I heard that before?

Oh yeah, I remember you! You were the one that tried to weasel out of my final exam by coming up with that bull**** story about your father passing away.

:D

[Leroy Lizard]

This answer right here proves that you have no desire to listen or learn!

Boxing is a sport, and it does not have a playoff.

Tennis doesn't have a playoff to determine its yearly champion.

Auto racing doesn't have a playoff either.

Neither does professional golf.

But let me guess: those aren't sports either, right? Is that how this works?

[Leroy Lizard]

You cant use your individual mandates as a professor to speak for everyone, I can give you a professor for each and every situation I have spelled out.

I speak for myself. I speak for no one else. Others might agree with me, but I don't represent them.


Playing thru finals would not have to happen, but lets stick with that portion of your argument. So how about those students who have to work 40 hours a week or have a child to take care of, are they not given a fair shake cus they have to fit in studying from time to time? These athletes can find time to study and take tests, you say you wont let a athlete retake an exam but why do they have to, I have seen literally 15 cases that the student(not even an athlete) was allowed to take the test at an earlier date or on an individual basis so he doesnt have to miss the test, that allows for the student to be treated fairly and not to have to ask for more time due to academics. Student athletes every day take tests on the road before games, this is allowed by school policy with a monitor present, why would that not work?

Because as a professor I won't allow it. Case closed. The student has to take the exam in my class at the regularly scheduled time. There are exceptions -- playing a game is not one of them.

Your playoff ideas depend on something you cannot deliver.


And you forget that college bball players who make it to the tourney are missing two days a week for up to a month, football players would only have to miss fridays if games were on saturdays, its really not a big deal and you are making it out to seem impossible.

And how are they expected to concentrate on their studies when they have a playoff game on the Saturday after their Friday final exam? This isn't Div. II. A Div. 1A playoff game is going to be a major media event.

Student athletes don't need the distraction; they need to be studying. If you disagree, then what does that tell us about your priorities?


And one final point, I have witnessed personally and read about several cases where teachers/professors refuse to accept a challenge...

As soon as you take a course from me, you can then stand in judgement of my skills as a professor. Until then, STFU.


to their knowledge, where if you challenge them you get kicked out of class or pubicly chastised and embarrassed for having the nerve, you professors have one big problem, alot of you(not all) think that you are never wrong and we as students have no right to challenge you or damned we be!! I challenged a professor in as luck would have it a English class and you know what he did, he flunked me! Believe me or not, he flunked me straight up.

Yeah, I cannot believe he would flunk you. I look at your prose and think to myself, "This man is Winston Churchill incarnate." I guess your English professors simply didn't see the brilliance in your writing. Don't feel too bad. Einstein wasn't always appreciated either.

The best part is where you completely redefined the proper use of the indefinite article. Until now, we were all bound by the impossible constraints of English style, but "a English" and "a athlete" are positively brilliant. Break the chains! Break the chains!


I will be the first to admit that I was not a straight A student...

No! I simply refuse to believe that.

[Ton Loc]

I speak for myself. I speak for no one else. Others might agree with me, but I don't represent them.



Because as a professor I won't allow it. Case closed. The student has to take the exam in my class at the regularly scheduled time. There are exceptions -- playing a game is not one of them.

Your playoff ideas depend on something you cannot deliver.



And how are they expected to concentrate on their studies when they have a playoff game on the Saturday after their Friday final exam? This isn't Div. II. A Div. 1A playoff game is going to be a major media event.

Student athletes don't need the distraction; they need to be studying. If you disagree, then what does that tell us about your priorities?



As soon as you take a course from me, you can then stand in judgement of my skills as a professor. Until then, STFU.



Yeah, I cannot believe he would flunk you. I look at your prose and think to myself, "This man is Winston Churchill incarnate." I guess your English professors simply didn't see the brilliance in your writing. Don't feel too bad. Einstein wasn't always appreciated either.

The best part is where you completely redefined the proper use of the indefinite article. Until now, we were all bound by the impossible constraints of English style, but "a English" and "a athlete" are positively brilliant. Break the chains! Break the chains!



No! I simply refuse to believe that.

OH NO! Personal attacks and masked curse words. Argument losing steam???

:pop:

[OKLA21FAN]

OH NO! Personal attacks and masked curse words. Argument losing steam???

:pop:

heh!

could be the 'last word theory' at work as well :pop:

[OUGuf]

:pop: :twinkies:

[Collier11]

What do ya know, an arrogant self absorbed professor type...what do you know! First of all this isn't English class so if my "prose" slips a bit, forgive me. The proof of someone who has no argument is one who runs to masked insults and lame attempts at sounding smarter. You want to make it a contest, I want to argue the points of your arguments and unfortunately for you, your actions are making your arguments look even more invalid than before!

[Collier11]

Because as a professor I won't allow it. Case closed. The student has to take the exam in my class at the regularly scheduled time. There are exceptions -- playing a game is not one of them.




there are people who are above you who would say differently, its ok though poor fella, youll get to make an important decision again one day soon

[Collier11]

And how are they expected to concentrate on their studies when they have a playoff game on the Saturday after their Friday final exam? This isn't Div. II. A Div. 1A playoff game is going to be a major media event.

Student athletes don't need the distraction; they need to be studying. If you disagree, then what does that tell us about your priorities?




Oh my, these guys couldn't focus on a Friday final with a game on Saturday, im pretty sure they do it most Fridays of every semester. Wow, you are getting worse and worse at this. No go tell me how Chaucer is more important that football and I cannot survive without his knowledge heaped upon me!

[royalfan5]

Boxing is a sport, and it does not have a playoff.

Tennis doesn't have a playoff to determine its yearly champion.

Auto racing doesn't have a playoff either.

Neither does professional golf.

But let me guess: those aren't sports either, right? Is that how this works?
At the amateur level, Boxing is completely tournament driven. The sanctioning bodies also often order 4 to 8 fighter elimantion tourneys for title shoots. An example of this is the Chamber/Povetkin/Brock/Byrd box-off for a shot at the younger Klitsckho.

[Collier11]

Boxing is a sport, and it does not have a playoff.

Tennis doesn't have a playoff to determine its yearly champion.

Auto racing doesn't have a playoff either.

Neither does professional golf.

But let me guess: those aren't sports either, right? Is that how this works?

Every tennis and golf major is determined by tournaments/playoffs. Racing has a playoff, plus these are all individual sports and not team sports. Do you even watch sports or are you too busy catching up on your PBS reruns?

[sanantoniosooner]

hey Collier.........

It's OK to consolidate all your rebuttals into one reply ;)

[Curly Bill]

So, because Leroy is an academic and apparently a smart guy, lets ridicule him for that? Almost like being back in high school...:rolleyes:

[Collier11]

So, because Leroy is an academic and apparently a smart guy, lets ridicule him for that? Almost like being back in high school...:rolleyes:


who was a hack in highschool?

Second, I wasnt ridiculing him for being an academic, as I said I have the utmost respect for people who work in that position and most are vastly underpaid, but when they act like they know everything and the playoff would never work because it would compromise academics he is kidding himself. Being close minded is the same as being stupid. If he would just say you know what, I dont agree but I see your point that is one thing, but to act like my ideas or anyone elses are the end all of upper education is just not based on facts

[Collier11]

hey Collier.........

It's OK to consolidate all your rebuttals into one reply ;)


yea I know but it is more fun this way, this way you have to read all of my ideas! ;) :D

[Curly Bill]

but when they act like they know everything and the playoff would never work because it would compromise academics he is kidding himself.

I agree that Leroy's academic argument probably goes too far, though I also think there is some merit in it. Nor do I think he is kidding himself, I have little doubt that he is sincere in that belief, and like I said I think with some justification.

[Collier11]

I agree that Leroy's academic argument probably goes too far, though I also think there is some merit in it. Nor do I think he is kidding himself, I have little doubt that he is sincere in that belief, and like I said I think with some justification.


I have no problem with him being concerned about academics, his argument makes him appear to be more concerned with the point that academics are so high in standing over athletics that he can not fathom a situation where athletics and academics could coincide to form a playoff

[Curly Bill]

I have no problem with him being concerned about academics, his argument makes him appear to be more concerned with the point that academics are so high in standing over athletics that he can not fathom a situation where athletics and academics could coincide to form a playoff

I'll buy that, and I'll agree with that.

...but here's the question that no one on here has the answer for when they develop their playoff scenarios: ........How many university presidents would agree?

[Collier11]

I'll buy that, and I'll agree with that.

...but here's the question that no one on here has the answer for when they develop their playoff scenarios: ........How many university presidents would agree?

Who knows, at this point probably not very many. But we aren't the ones who have to figure that out right now, it is true that if we really want a playoff we need to bombard the AD's and Presidents with angry letters and emails and thats just a start, but as of right now I am not trying to change the world, I am discussing how things could be different and yes, academics and sports could help each other out if some weren't so close minded!

[Ton Loc]

I'll buy that, and I'll agree with that.

...but here's the question that no one on here has the answer for when they develop their playoff scenarios: ........How many university presidents would agree?

Stop with with your valid questions.

They're throwing us off the enjoyment of watching Collier vs. Leroy

:pop:

[Collier11]

Stop with with your valid questions.

They're throwing us off the enjoyment of watching Collier vs. Leroy

:pop:


im enjoying it myself :D

[birddog]

reloy's just a troll getting under some people's skin.

don't let him get you too worked up.

[sooneron]

... still waiting...

[Collier11]

... still waiting...


My reply would be this, my playoff plan involves 16 teams, the conference winner for all 11 conferences and 5 at large teams determined by highest BCS ranking. It is my belief that if you are in D1 football or any level of sports for that matter, every team should have an oppurtunity to win a natl title even if some of the teams would lose every playoff game 55-0, they should still have a shot IMO or be shipped off to 1AA

[sooneron]

My reply would be this, my playoff plan involves 16 teams, the conference winner for all 11 conferences and 5 at large teams determined by highest BCS ranking. It is my belief that if you are in D1 football or any level of sports for that matter, every team should have an oppurtunity to win a natl title even if some of the teams would lose every playoff game 55-0, they should still have a shot IMO or be shipped off to 1AA
Them being shipped off to 1-AA isn't really an option. So there's fault right there. Every team would have a chance to win a title as it currently is if you think about it. KU was unranked as was Mizz. They both had their chance along with a host of other teams. If you win your games in front of you, you USUALLY get your shot. I also think that level of competition should count for something. I don't think a MWC conf team should get a shot if they lose 3 or all four OOC games, but they win their conf. You would also have more prevalent cream puff schedules. Their thinking would be, "If we can get to conf play all healthy, we can win it." That would be horrible for CFB.

[SleestakSooner]

As has been mentioned here ad nauseum, football players are given ample opportunity to keep up with their school work while preparing and playing in games.
If a playoff system were instigated there would not be much change if any in that extra help given to student atheletes. Your opinion Leroy is appreciated and understood, but the simple fact is you are wrong.

At this point I would not be surprised to learn you are one of the professors holding classes or tests on gamedays.

[Ton Loc]

Them being shipped off to 1-AA isn't really an option. So there's fault right there. Every team would have a chance to win a title as it currently is if you think about it. KU was unranked as was Mizz. They both had their chance along with a host of other teams. If you win your games in front of you, you USUALLY get your shot. I also think that level of competition should count for something. I don't think a MWC conf team should get a shot if they lose 3 or all four OOC games, but they win their conf. You would also have more prevalent cream puff schedules. Their thinking would be, "If we can get to conf play all healthy, we can win it." That would be horrible for CFB.

USUALLY is not good enough for me.

[Stoop Dawg]

Thank God somebody finally gave an opinion on this topic around here.

I thought we were ignoring it altogether.

Hmmm, there must be a LOT of playoff threads if you're only posting in one-third of them.

[TUSooner]

***2) Human polls are worthless as the tits on a bore hog. Big news, huh? The No. 5 and No. 8 teams are playing for the championship. Moreover, No. 5 beat three of the four season end top ranked teams all of which were undefeated.....

This proves how BAD playoffs are. The best team, as recognized by the omniscient poll voters, might not win! Do you want that kind of travesty? Also, the #1 and #2 teams "deserve" to be in the championship game. This screwy playoff system denies us the right to see the championship game ESPN and the rest of the media tell us we want to see. College players cannot be entrusted with something so important.



:rolleyes: (just in case it wasn't clear)

[Collier11]

This proves how BAD playoffs are. The best team, as recognized by the omniscient poll voters, might not win! Do you want that kind of travesty? Also, the #1 and #2 teams "deserve" to be in the championship game. This screwy playoff system denies us the right to see the championship game ESPN and the rest of the media tell us we want to see. College players cannot be entrusted with something so important.



:rolleyes: (just in case it wasn't clear)


So if a team beats every team in front of them in the rankings, they are the best team? This isnt bball where a team can go 30-5 and lose to george washington and be done, this is where you are going to play three other really good teams that in almost all cases will be deserving!

[TUSooner]

So if a team beats every team in front of them in the rankings, they are the best team? This isnt bball where a team can go 30-5 and lose to george washington and be done, this is where you are going to play three other really good teams that in almost all cases will be deserving!
So even the ;) wasn't enough?

[Collier11]

So even the ;) wasn't enough?


you had a :rolleyes: and not a ;) you are just tryin to F with people now :D

[TUSooner]

you had a :rolleyes: and not a ;) you are just tryin to F with people now :D
So now I need a :O

:D

The point is that, even if the "best" team doesn't win, because they have 1 bad game or whatever, the direct competition is still better than "championship by argument."

For the record, I like the way the English soccer leagues are organized. But that will NEVER make it in CFB.

[sanantoniosooner]

Hmmm, there must be a LOT of playoff threads if you're only posting in one-third of them.
ignoring the fact that open season has been declared on this topic now by the sarcastic crowd on both sides of the issue.........

I can link you to an article on Wikipedia if you want some help on counting.

[Collier11]

So now I need a :O

:D

The point is that, even if the "best" team doesn't win, because they have 1 bad game or whatever, the direct competition is still better than "championship by argument."

For the record, I like the way the English soccer leagues are organized. But that will NEVER make it in CFB.


Now I agree completely, no more of this :confused: but remember, according to Lizard the entire academic structure would fall to pieces if we had a playoff so that will just leave us like this :( until he changes his mind!

[Stoop Dawg]

ignoring the fact that open season has been declared on this topic now by the sarcastic crowd on both sides of the issue.........

WTF??? I didn't get the memo!! Is it still open? How long is the season? Most importantly, is there a playoff at the end?

[Leroy Lizard]

Second, I wasnt ridiculing him for being an academic, as I said I have the utmost respect for people who work in that position and most are vastly underpaid, but when they act like they know everything and the playoff would never work because it would compromise academics he is kidding himself."

Let's go back:

1. Final exams important.

2. Therefore, it is important to study for final exams.

3. Distractions diminish quality studying.

4. Playoff games will be huge distractions for the players involved if the games are played near final exams.

5. Ergo, playoff schemes that have players playing games near final exams are a bad idea.

That isn't being a know-it-all; that is thinking things through in a logical, reasonable manner.

Now, show me where the logic in my statements fail? And I mean, examine the logic, not attack me personally.


Being close minded is the same as being stupid.

Actually, being close-minded means falling in lock-step with the rest of the sheep in demanding changes before the problems have been thoroughly discussed.

Some of you need to work on the academia side for a change. Too many of you sports nuts simply cannot understand how universities operate, so you fall back on simplistic slogans like "they do it in Div. 1AA!"

For example, advocating the starting games in August for ALL teams, never minding that some universities don't convene until nearly October, is an example of not understanding the situation.

Advocating that regular season games be dropped is another example of brainless stumping. Why not think about it first? There might be a problem with this idea, but you won't know unless you think about it for a while.

Advocating the institutionalization of a system where athletes will take final exams in Oklahoma on Friday, and play the next night in Phoenix, is a sign that things haven't been thought through. That is just a bad idea, no matter how you slice it. And for what gain?

If players have trouble academically, I have to deal with it. Most of you don't. Most of you wouldn't care a lick if a player failed out of school so long as he wasn't an important starter, and I am not exaggerating.

When any of you begin writing letters to college presidents and you don't properly account for the problems that playoffs will bring, your letters will simply be ignored. It's the golden rule of persuasion: account for the problems. And by "accounting," I don't mean "dismissing."

You're not answering to the problems that playoffs will bring, you're dismissing them.

Players having a rough time with final exams? "Well, they'll find a way to study somehow."

Too many teams in Div. 1A? "Well... make some of them go back to Div. 1AA."

Some teams not in conferences? "Uhhh... make 'em join conferences."

Some conferences don't have championship games? "Hmmm.... I know! Make 'em all play championship games."

[Ton Loc]

Let's go back:

1. Final exams important.

Contrary to popular belief. Finals are not hard if you have attended 75% of your classes, stayed up on your homework, and study a couple of hours every now and then.

2. Therefore, it is important to study for final exams.

See above

3. Distractions diminish quality studying.

Yes they do----be it football games, keg parties, full time jobs, or families.

4. Playoff games will be huge distractions for the players involved if the games are played near final exams.

How would you know??? Besides, they can't be anymore of a distraction then a full time job, a family, or the fantastic parties at the end of the year.


5. Ergo, playoff schemes that have players playing games near final exams are a bad idea.

Ergo, if you take care of you classes throughout the year a final is a breeze.

That isn't being a know-it-all; that is thinking things through in a logical, reasonable manner.

Now, show me where the logic in my statements fail? And I mean, examine the logic, not attack me personally.

I believe you resorted to personal attacks earlier today



See above

[Collier11]

See above


yes and on top of that, you say taking a test on Friday and then having a game on saturday is bad, so why does it happen at every school in likely every sport. The think you seem to be missing Lizard is that all of these problems have solutions, I may not have every answer but if we did every have a playoff im not the one who is going to be figuring out these questions, someone else who works closely with this situation will. That is why I dont have to have an answer for every solution.

That being said, I have answered every one of your questions with a valid answer and if you dont believe me, offer up every HUGE question or constraint you see with a playoff and I will answer each of them logically and without personal attack

[sooneron]

USUALLY is not good enough for me.
With the exception of Hawaii, whose schedule was very suspect, what team is undefeated right now? Hawaii's ad is to blame for their (probably correct) lack of respect.

[Leroy Lizard]

Contrary to popular belief. Finals are not hard if you have attended 75% of your classes, stayed up on your homework, and study a couple of hours every now and then.

That is malarkey. It depends on the course and the student! How in the Hell can you make such a sweeping generalization?

This is why there is a dead week on some college campuses. This is why no new content is supposed to be taught during the week before final exams at others. They don't make these rules because the final exams are pieces of cake in every class for every student.

The levels that playoff proponents will go to blow off the importance of final exams is incredible. Forget common sense. Forget all that we know about final exams. Just rationalize the final exams away, all so that you can get student athletes to entertain you more during the holidays.

Do me a favor. When you playoff proponents write letters to college presidents, tell them how easy final exams are and that there is no need to study hard for them. That distractions are no big deal.

And be sure to tell them that academics are less important than your entertainment. Because that is the damn truth.

[Cam]

For example, advocating the starting games in August for ALL teams, never minding that some universities don't convene until nearly October, is an example of not understanding the situation.
How would anybody on the academic side of the argument look at nearly 1/3 of the season being played before school starts as a bad thing? If summer school's over and they're eligible, there's no academic argument against this that holds water. When I worked at a University, it was open year round so it can't be a facilities issue.

Also, I never had a prof tell me I couldn't reschedule a test or paper during the season. I can assure you they cared more about my grades than me playing ball. They also understood that the players don't control the game schedules and didn't punish them for that.

To be honest, when you get on your soapbox and say "no athletic department employee's going to tell me when to give my tests", it kind of makes you look like a holier than thou prof. I'm not saying that you are, just saying that perception is reality in today's world.

[Leroy Lizard]

yes and on top of that, you say taking a test on Friday and then having a game on saturday is bad, so why does it happen at every school in likely every sport.

How clever. You changed "final" to "test."

Final exams are final. They cannot be made up. They are usually more heavily weighted than midterms. They are the last chance a struggling student (such as a lot of student-athletes) has to raise his grades. Most importantly, if you fail the final exam in my department, you fail the course. Which is why it is foolhardy to just blow them off as "easy" and "no big deal." They are a big deal.

So I don't appreciate the subtle vocabulary switch. We are talking final exams here, and only final exams.


The think you seem to be missing Lizard is that all of these problems have solutions,

I have a better idea: Don't create the problems in the first place.


That is why I dont have to have an answer for every solution.

How can you advocate a change to a system that has problems for which you don't know how to solve? How persuasive is your argument at that point?

I don't like playing the "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it." I like planning and forethought.

[Curly Bill]

I don't like playing the "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it." I like planning and forethought.

You mean we can't just pick someone's pet playoff system, throw it against the wall and see if it sticks? :D

[Stoop Dawg]

You mean we can't just pick someone's pet playoff system, throw it against the wall and see if it sticks? :D

I don't see why not. That's what the BCS has been doing for years.

[Curly Bill]

I don't see why not. That's what the BCS has been doing for years.

Well you playoff guys need to come up with something better then the BCS to make us sitting on the fence want to switch huh?

...and notice I said better, not merely different.

[Stoop Dawg]

Well you playoff guys need to come up with something better then the BCS to make us sitting on the fence want to switch huh?

...and notice I said better, not merely different.

Why? I don't care if you want a playoff or not.

[Curly Bill]

Why? I don't care if you want a playoff or not.

...and I don't care if you care if I want a playoff or not. :P

[Collier11]

Well you playoff guys need to come up with something better then the BCS to make us sitting on the fence want to switch huh?

...and notice I said better, not merely different.



well I did it two pages ago and yourself along with Mr. Prof didnt even make a comment regarding it, its like you cant allow it to ever work but when I think of something that just might, you dont even consider it?

[Collier11]

How can you advocate a change to a system that has problems for which you don't know how to solve? How persuasive is your argument at that point?

I don't like playing the "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it." I like planning and forethought.


I have given several legitimate responses and you have just brushed them all to the side cus you are unwilling to discuss, you just want to shoot down. That being said, the truth of the matter is that I am not the one that will make all the logistical and academic decisions so NO, I dont have every answer!

[Collier11]

Lets see just for the sake of arguing some more if this could work

Each team gets 11 regular season games which was the norm up until two years ago instead of 12, you throw in a conf title game for those that play it and either 3 or 4 playoff games depending on 8 or 16 teams. That is 14 or 15 games tops which is just one more than they play now in a normal season if you have a conf title games.

This year the season started on September 2nd and could easily start on aug 25th if need be(several schools play games before the academic year starts so arguing against this is not valid, but we will keep sep 2nd) From September 2nd-January 7th which is when the title game is this year there are 19 saturdays...so we have 15 games to play tops in 19 weeks, last I checked that allows for 1 bye week which is all that OU had this year plus three weeks for dead week and finals. Tell me how this wont work please, really curious?

Here is a sample schedule:
Sept 2nd-game
sept 9th-game
sept 16th-game
sept 23rd-game
sept 30-game
oct 6th-game
oct 13th-game
oct 20th-bye week
oct 27th-game
nov 3rd-game
nov 10th-game
nov 17th-game
nov 24th-off week or open to those who dont have conf title games
Dec 1st-conf title games
Dec 8th- off/dead week and finals
Dec 15th-off/dead week and finals
Dec 22nd- Rd 1 of playoffs
Dec 29th- Rd 2 or semis for 8 team
Jan 5th-Semis for 16 team or Finals for 8 team
Jan 12th- Finals for 16 team

Please tell me how this wouldnt work, i'd love to hear it? If you notice, there is an extra off week at the end that could be used for earlier finals if need be


Here you go again, look over it and respond with why it wont work. I would love to know cus it follows the same aspects of the current system we have right now.

The only argument you gave me LIZARD to this solution is that AD's arent going to give away one game a year, first of all we were only allowed 11 regular season games until last year. Rules can be rolled back for the better of the game.

Keep in mind that I have avoided all attacks and arguments, I am looking for actual educated dialouge and not just this wont work so humor me Lizard and give me good reasons why this would never work.

[Leroy Lizard]

Dec 22nd- Rd 1 of playoffs
Dec 29th- Rd 2 or semis for 8 team
Jan 5th-Semis for 16 team or Finals for 8 team
Jan 12th- Finals for 16 team


When do players get to go home?

I know the answer: They don't.

And yes, many college football players that are playing in bowl games do get to go home during the Christmas Break. That I know for a fact.

So sure, you can give the players the time for final exams if you are willing to take something else away. I never denied that. But I don't see any good reason to do this. There is no compelling value in a playoff system that makes it worth it. What do we really gain from it?


The only argument you gave me LIZARD to this solution is that AD's arent going to give away one game a year, first of all we were only allowed 11 regular season games until last year.

But they won't. The extra game was added because of the enhanced revenue. You have to convince AD's to give up the money.

Sure, it is POSSIBLE. I just don't see it happening. I'm all for scaling back the season. I would rather scale college football back more than you do, but it just isn't realistic.

College presidents do not want games played on Jan. 12 because it encroaches into the recruiting season and they want the college football season over before classes begin. Also, the players don't get a break from school for even a single week from August until Spring Break.

With the bowl system, players can go home during part of the Holiday Break. That's a good thing. Why take it away?

Yes, an eight-game playoff will work, but an eight-game playoff will become a 16-game playoff.

We can't just start beginning the season earlier and finishing later to accommodate a system we really don't even need. That's my view of it.

By the way, academics only forms a small part of my disgust for college football playoffs.

[Leroy Lizard]

Dec 22nd- Rd 1 of playoffs
Dec 29th- Rd 2 or semis for 8 team
Jan 5th-Semis for 16 team or Finals for 8 team
Jan 12th- Finals for 16 team


When do players get to go home?

I know the answer: They don't.

And yes, many college football players that are playing in bowl games do get to go home during the Christmas Break. That I know for a fact.

So sure, you can give the players the time for final exams if you are willing to take something else away. I never denied that. But I don't see any good reason to do this. There is no compelling value in a playoff system that makes it worth it. What do we really gain from it?


The only argument you gave me LIZARD to this solution is that AD's arent going to give away one game a year, first of all we were only allowed 11 regular season games until last year.

But they won't. The extra game was added because of the enhanced revenue. You have to convince AD's to give up the money.

Sure, it is POSSIBLE. I just don't see it happening. I'm all for scaling back the season. I would rather scale college football back more than you do, but it just isn't realistic.

College presidents do not want games played on Jan. 12 because it encroaches into the recruiting season and they want the college football season over before classes begin. Also, the players don't get a break from school for even a single week from August until Spring Break.

With the bowl system, players can go home during part of the Holiday Break. That's a good thing. Why take it away?

Yes, an eight-game playoff will work, but an eight-game playoff will become a 16-game playoff.

We can't just start beginning the season earlier and finishing later to accommodate a system we really don't even need. That's my view of it.

By the way, academics only forms a small part of my disgust for college football playoffs.

[Leroy Lizard]

BTW, Collier. I commend you for not throwing out the arguments of idiocy. "Final exams are easy." "Final exams are not important." "They deserve it because they get free tutoring." You seem to be a reasonable person.

The lugheads in your camp aren't doing you any favors. As long as they are writing the letters to the college presidents, my bowl system is perfectly safe. :D

[Ton Loc]

That is malarkey. It depends on the course and the student! How in the Hell can you make such a sweeping generalization?

This is why there is a dead week on some college campuses. This is why no new content is supposed to be taught during the week before final exams at others. They don't make these rules because the final exams are pieces of cake in every class for every student.

The levels that playoff proponents will go to blow off the importance of final exams is incredible. Forget common sense. Forget all that we know about final exams. Just rationalize the final exams away, all so that you can get student athletes to entertain you more during the holidays.

Do me a favor. When you playoff proponents write letters to college presidents, tell them how easy final exams are and that there is no need to study hard for them. That distractions are no big deal.

And be sure to tell them that academics are less important than your entertainment. Because that is the damn truth.



Your quest to argue against playoffs seems to hinge on the difficulty of finals. Which I argue are not that difficult if you stayed up on your class and studied every once in awhile. This was the case for me while I was pursuing my Management degree while having a family, a full-time job, and being a full time student.

I could care less about playoffs really, but your insistence that finals are somehow on the level of balancing the national budget or solving the Social Security problem is idiotic.

These kids are having the time of their lives. Going away from home for the first time, partying, getting an education, and playing football at the highest level they have experienced sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me. Call me crazy but I think they have it a little easier in school than I did.

So do me a favor and open your damn eyes. Not everyone has the same opinion as you. I'm sorry college was so terribly hard for you, but you seemed to get through it alright.

If your opinions are so strong maybe you should write to the presidents and tell them to do away with all playoffs across all sports because they are too much of a distraction for players to get a good quality education. I'm sure they will take you very seriously and get right on that.

Maybe you can't see the real issue here is the hypocrisy the presidents have when arguing against a playoff in football when it exists in virtually every other sport.

[Curly Bill]

The only argument you gave me LIZARD to this solution is that AD's arent going to give away one game a year, first of all we were only allowed 11 regular season games until last year.

Give up a game and the attendant revenue resulting from said game? I bet they'll jump at the chance! ;)

[Stoop Dawg]

When do players get to go home?

And yes, many college football players that are playing in bowl games do get to go home during the Christmas Break. That I know for a fact.

Well, the vast, vast majority of them go home right before or after "The Consolation Bowl", just like they do now. The kids from 4 of the 119 teams will play one extra game. The kids from 2 of the 119 teams will play 2 extra games. And kids from 2 of the 119 teams will play 3 extra games.

I can't say for a fact, but I'm guessing that most of the kids playing on those teams would gladly give up their holiday break for a chance to play in the NC.


College presidents do not want games played on Jan. 12 because it encroaches into the recruiting season and they want the college football season over before classes begin. Also, the players don't get a break from school for even a single week from August until Spring Break.

With the bowl system, players can go home during part of the Holiday Break. That's a good thing. Why take it away?


Once again, I can't say for a fact, but I'm guessing that the added TV exposure and the NC ring on the coaches finger are better for recruiting than ONE extra week of time.

Also, the vast, vast majority of players would play one bowl game and go home. The only ones who will be "required" to play more games are the ones who care about winning a NC.


Yes, an eight-game playoff will work, but an eight-game playoff will become a 16-game playoff.

Too late. The BCS will soon adopt "Plus 1", which is a 4 team playoff. That ship has already sailed......

[Rock Hard Corn Frog]

Given enough time I think the Lizard would start arguing with himself. Lizard in a argument reaches and excitement somewhere between Mel Kiper with a bottle of viagra on NFL draft weekend or Donkey Kong with a fistfull of bananas visiting a chimpanze whorehouse.

If Lizard is really a professor then I can see why he thinks that not only education is important but that his class is the single most important thing in the universe and that Copernicus should really re-think his theory and place Lizard's classroom as the center of the universe. Much like a chiropractor thinks that every ailment known to man is caused by poor posture.

I have my reservations with playoff systems but it is more with selecting teams. I was a college baseball player that traveled a lot and it didn't prevent me from getting a pretty good college education and a degree because 95% of my professors weren't TOOLS.

[Stoop Dawg]

Given enough time I think the Lizard would start arguing with himself.

It only takes about 15 pages. I've seen it.

[Ton Loc]

Given enough time I think the Lizard would start arguing with himself. Lizard in a argument reaches and excitement somewhere between Mel Kiper with a bottle of viagra on NFL draft weekend or Donkey Kong with a fistfull of bananas visiting a chimpanze whorehouse.

If Lizard is really a professor then I can see why he thinks that not only education is important but that his class is the single most important thing in the universe and that Copernicus should really re-think his theory and place Lizard's classroom as the center of the universe. Much like a chiropractor thinks that every ailment known to man is caused by poor posture.

I have my reservations with playoff systems but it is more with selecting teams. I was a college baseball player that traveled a lot and it didn't prevent me from getting a pretty good college education and a degree because 95% of my professors weren't TOOLS.

But wasn't it super hard and too much of a distraction to get ready for your tests and finals???:rolleyes:

I mean, if you had to do it over again you would have stopped playing baseball and concentrated on your studies more right???:rolleyes:

[Collier11]

When do players get to go home?

I know the answer: They don't.

And yes, many college football players that are playing in bowl games do get to go home during the Christmas Break. That I know for a fact.

Many dont as well, you are looking at things too literal and that is why people are arguing with you. You have to atleast be willing to see the other side or its just arguing for arguments sake, I have given two options, 8 or 16 teams, I have given flexible dates, and you still refuse to work with the idea that it could work at all, which it could. You say that D2, 1AA, etc. isnt a valid argument but the point when people bring that up is that if small schools like that can work around Christmas and Finals then I am sure these mega schools can as well

So sure, you can give the players the time for final exams if you are willing to take something else away. I never denied that. But I don't see any good reason to do this. There is no compelling value in a playoff system that makes it worth it. What do we really gain from it?

It would be compelling, it would allow for the Championship to be decided on the field, and it would bring in tons of money that the presidents and AD's crave. Tons more than the bowls for sure, you dont believe me I can get you links where people have offered up their own money to financially back a playoff and thats not counting advertisements, tv exposure and the rest.



But they won't. The extra game was added because of the enhanced revenue. You have to convince AD's to give up the money.

See above about money, this is the smallest of the ideas. You cant have it both ways, either it is for academics or money. This can be done and bring in much more money without a doubt


College presidents do not want games played on Jan. 12 because it encroaches into the recruiting season and they want the college football season over before classes begin.

They are playing til January 7th now. Also, as far as the players getting enough time off, obviously that will be something that needs to be figured out. You asked for a way that it would work and I am showing you a rough draft, come on Prof. you know about rough drafts and outlines dont ya :D

With the bowl system, players can go home during part of the Holiday Break. That's a good thing. Why take it away? They still could, there wont be any games on Christmas or Christmas eve which I believe there are bowl games on those days now. In a playoff, the teams that are in the playoff are on the road two days, Friday and saturday. You could also preserve the bowls for the teams that dont make it. It is all feasible!

Yes, an eight-game playoff will work, but an eight-game playoff will become a 16-game playoff.

ThankYOU

We can't just start beginning the season earlier and finishing later to accommodate a system we really don't even need. That's my view of it.

I said if you completely read my plan, that we didnt have to start the last saturday of August, that was just an option and my plan was based on starting the first saturday of September. Dont you remember when games started towards the end of September?




:pop:

[Rock Hard Corn Frog]

Hey all you botanists out there.... Bedding plants? Is that a sexual term?

:D

[Leroy Lizard]

Your quest to argue against playoffs seems to hinge on the difficulty of finals. Which I argue are not that difficult if you stayed up on your class and studied every once in awhile. This was the case for me...

Something about overgeneralization comes to mind.


I could care less about playoffs really, but your insistence that finals are somehow on the level of balancing the national budget or solving the Social Security problem is idiotic.

I never said that. I said that final exams are important and that students should be given all reasonable opportunity to prepare for them.

And for some reason, playoff proponents cannot even acknowledge such basic ideas.

It comes down to this: Universities typically provide a dead week for the week before final exams. Or they have rules that do not allow the teaching of new content on the week before final exams. Obviously, the university is officially acknowledging the importance of final exams and the importance of being provided the opportunity to study for them.

Arguments that "they are no big deal," "they are actually easy," "you really don't need to study" fly in the face of what every educator knows.

If you want to hang out in a bar and convince your pro-playoff buddies that final exams are no big deal, more power to you. But you are not going to get anywere with someone who really matters. So any victories you think you score here are worthless.

So continue preaching to the choir. In the end, those that have the power to make the changes are not going to be persuaded by such juvenile thinking.


These kids are having the time of their lives. Going away from home for the first time, partying, getting an education, and playing football at the highest level they have experienced sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me. Call me crazy but I think they have it a little easier in school than I did.

And you are going to convince a college president with such line of reasoning?

[royalfan5]

The Volleyball player must be really smart to survive having their tournament run right into finals.

[Leroy Lizard]

It would be compelling, it would allow for the Championship to be decided on the field, and it would bring in tons of money that the presidents and AD's crave. Tons more than the bowls for sure, you dont believe me I can get you links where people have offered up their own money to financially back a playoff and thats not counting advertisements, tv exposure and the rest.

Then where is the playoff?

If there were really no problems with playoffs, no problems with academics, no problems with Christmas Breaks, tons of money... if there are only good things with playoffs, then why didn't the greedy college ADs and presidents form them many years ago?

There must be reasons to resist playoffs. And I know these reasons. You would too if you would just think about it for awhile. It isn't so rosy as you picture.

The bowl system offers a lot of great things for college football, but fans are too myopic to appreciate them. They only focus on the negatives and think that any alternative will make the problems go away.

[Collier11]

Then where is the playoff?

If there were really no problems with playoffs, no problems with academics, no problems with Christmas Breaks, tons of money... if there are only good things with playoffs, then why didn't the greedy college ADs and presidents form them many years ago?

There must be reasons to resist playoffs. And I know these reasons. You would too if you would just think about it for awhile. It isn't so rosy as you picture.

The bowl system offers a lot of great things for college football, but fans are too myopic to appreciate them. They only focus on the negatives and think that any alternative will make the problems go away.


I never said there werent any problems, there will be plenty of problems with any system and if you dont think there are huge problems with the current system then you are kidding yourself.

[Stoop Dawg]

Then where is the playoff?

If there were really no problems with playoffs, no problems with academics, no problems with Christmas Breaks, tons of money... if there are only good things with playoffs, then why didn't the greedy college ADs and presidents form them many years ago?

There must be reasons to resist playoffs. And I know these reasons. You would too if you would just think about it for awhile. It isn't so rosy as you picture.

The bowl system offers a lot of great things for college football, but fans are too myopic to appreciate them. They only focus on the negatives and think that any alternative will make the problems go away.

Ah, the old "a playoff is obviously not viable because it doesn't already exist" argument. The BCS didn't exist until a few years ago, and now here it is. The "Plus 1" doesn't exist yet, and yet it will in a few years.

Aren't you also the guy who opposes a 4 or 8 team playoff primarily because it will "balloon out of control"? How can it balloon out of control with all these forces working against it? If a 64 team playoff is infeasable (it is) then why do you claim that it is an eventual certainty?

Most playoff proponents want to leave the bowl system in tact and add 2 or 3 games to the end of the season. Unfortunately, most playoff opponents are too myopic to appreciate that.

[Ton Loc]

Something about overgeneralization comes to mind.

In your mind it is over generalization. In mine it is the truth.


I never said that. I said that final exams are important and that students should be given all reasonable opportunity to prepare for them.

You never said that, but your comments imply that.

And for some reason, playoff proponents cannot even acknowledge such basic ideas.

I'm not a playoff proponent

It comes down to this: Universities typically provide a dead week for the week before final exams. Or they have rules that do not allow the teaching of new content on the week before final exams. Obviously, the university is officially acknowledging the importance of final exams and the importance of being provided the opportunity to study for them.

Yes they do. And a simple 4 to 8 team playoff would not interfere with it.

Arguments that "they are no big deal," "they are actually easy," "you really don't need to study" fly in the face of what every educator knows.

They fly in the face of what you know, not every educator. Over generalization comes to mind (someone else said this once)

If you want to hang out in a bar and convince your pro-playoff buddies that final exams are no big deal, more power to you. But you are not going to get anywere with someone who really matters. So any victories you think you score here are worthless.

I'm not convincing anyone of anything. Your argument sucks (to me). I could care less about playoffs, but your rambling is so baseless that I had to comment. (and everyone enjoys a good argument)

So continue preaching to the choir. In the end, those that have the power to make the changes are not going to be persuaded by such juvenile thinking.

That's almost a personal attack. I thought we weren't going there??? I'm not preaching to a choir. I'm preaching to a one man band who doesn't know his instrument sounds like a Mangino fart.


And you are going to convince a college president with such line of reasoning?

I don't care



And stop only replying to part of my response. And taking small clips out of sentences. Are you the NY Post or something?

[Collier11]

And stop only replying to part of my response. And taking small clips out of sentences. Are you the NY Post or something?


It is obvious that he is just a blowhard who refuses to talk about anything, he doesnt listen to anything. He points out flaws, we give him different ways to do it, he points out problems, we fix them. The fact of the matter is that there will be problems with any system we have, I personally think a playoff provides us with the least amount of problems.

Lizard is convinced that academics will burn to the ground if we have a playoff when the burdens of a CFB player will be no different than they already are. He picks and chooses what he wants to argue so I dont know why you are myself continue to try and convince him other than I enjoy the banter!

[PLaw]

Interesting dialog. So the educational jeopardy of 170 kids plus the scout teamers is standing in the way of a play off system?? Laughable.

Personally knowing many Div. 1 athletes, I've come to the conclusion that the athlete population is no different than the general student population. Some kids place a high value on their education and act maturely towards acheiving a degree. Others are passing through. They went to college to play ball, party, or find themselves.

While we are all appalled by graduation rates, the fact remains that only a third of my chemical engineering class completed their degree. I wasn't in that third, but slid through with a BSME.

Bottom line is the money talks from the Bowl System and TV packages. Nothing changes until that changes. A boycott of TV viewers of the BCS games for a couple of years will change the system on a dime. Only when the ad money goes away, will the system change. And the money is driven by ratings.

BOOMER

[Leroy Lizard]

Ah, the old "a playoff is obviously not viable because it doesn't already exist" argument. The BCS didn't exist until a few years ago, and now here it is. The "Plus 1" doesn't exist yet, and yet it will in a few years.

But other divisions instituted it a long time ago. What has been the holdup?

Obvious, someone doesn't want it. Who? What is their reasoning? Why not investigate the answers to those questions, rather than preach to the choir? You don't get anywhere by trying to convert the converted, especially when the converted are a bunch of powerless sports fans.

I find it laughable that Div. 1A football would have taken this long to institute a system that supposedly has every advantage over the current system. These are businessmen, after all. They didn't get to where they are by being stupid.


Aren't you also the guy who opposes a 4 or 8 team playoff primarily because it will "balloon out of control"? How can it balloon out of control with all these forces working against it? If a 64 team playoff is infeasable (it is) then why do you claim that it is an eventual certainty?

It will stop at 16 teams, because at that point the majority of the fan base will have secured a probable playoff berth for their favorite team. Sure, North Texas State would love a 64-team playoff, but their fan base is too small to make good on their wishes.


Most playoff proponents want to leave the bowl system in tact and add 2 or 3 games to the end of the season. Unfortunately, most playoff opponents are too myopic to appreciate that.

Do you want to examine the evidence one more time what happens to the size of a tournament over time? I posted it once before. Are you telling me that you cannot spot the obvious trend? Human nature and history both point to an ever-increasing tournament size. That is a given.


While we are all appalled by graduation rates, the fact remains that only a third of my chemical engineering class completed their degree. I wasn't in that third, but slid through with a BSME.

That's a terrible graduation rate. Do you want to institute changes that will lower it?

Again, how is your reasoning going to work with the Powers That Be? Are you really going to suggest to a college president that a playoff is okay because the graduation rates for your own degree program are low too? How soon will your letter hit the waste can?


Bottom line is the money talks from the Bowl System and TV packages. Nothing changes until that changes.

According to playoff proponents, there is more money in the playoff system. But now we are told that the bowls give too much money to schools to change the current system. Why don't you playoff proponents get together over beers and iron out your stories?



Yes they do. And a simple 4 to 8 team playoff would not interfere with it.

But we won't end up with a four- or eight-team playoff. We will end up with a 16-team playoff.

Playoff proponents always argue on the basis that THEIR scheme will be the one adopted. Don't assume that.

[Stoop Dawg]

But other divisions instituted it a long time ago. What has been the holdup?

Obvious, someone doesn't want it. Who? What is their reasoning? Why not investigate the answers to those questions, rather than preach to the choir? You don't get anywhere by trying to convert the converted, especially when the converted are a bunch of powerless sports fans.


Then why wasn't the BCS implemented until recently? If it's so great, why did it take so long to be implemented? If it's not so great, why was it implemented at all? Why will the "Plus 1" be implemented? Obviously someone hasn't wanted it for hundreds of years, why did they change their mind now? These are business people, they don't just change their mind on a whim, they're not stupid you know.

Powerless sports fans?


It will stop at 16 teams, because at that point the majority of the fan base will have secured a probable playoff berth for their favorite team. Sure, North Texas State would love a 64-team playoff, but their fan base is too small to make good on their wishes.

Your logic rests on the fact that North Texas State doesn't have the fan base to "make good on their wishes". This implies that there are at least 16 other teams that do. Yet one paragraph ago you said sports fans are powerless.


Do you want to examine the evidence one more time what happens to the size of a tournament over time? I posted it once before. Are you telling me that you cannot spot the obvious trend? Human nature and history both point to an ever-increasing tournament size. That is a given.


Given the multitude of reasons you have given why a 16 team playoff is simply not feasible, how are you now so certain that it is inevitable?

Let's face it, you couldn't debate your way out of a paper bag. It's fun to watch you flail about waving your arms, though.

[Cam]

I'm still waiting to see some sort of explanation how a person arguing the academic side against a playoff would be against 3-4 games being played before school starts.

[Rock Hard Corn Frog]

I'm still waiting to see some sort of explanation how a person arguing the academic side against a playoff would be against 3-4 games being played before school starts.

I bet you can expect a multi-post manifesto from Thesaurus Rex before long..:D

[RedstickSooner]

If the playoff system was such a roaring success, the "championship" division would draw fans.

They don't even fill the stands of those ****ant tiny little stadiums they have during the regular season.

Hell, they don't fill the stands during their *championship* games.

Proof is in the pudding, and the only way you're going to get a new system is if the current system "breaks". Awarding the wrong team a trophy ain't "broken" by university standards. Empty seats in the stadium is. In fact, game attendance is one of the standards by which teams are accepted into Division 1-A. Er, I mean, the "Bowl conference", or whatever the fudge they call it now.

For all the annual hair pulling, ****ing & moaning -- college football is as successful as it has *ever* been. Why in the world would it remotely consider changing?

Like I said, there's only one way to change this system, if that's what you want -- you have to break it.

That means quit going to games. Quit watching on TV. When you cancel your season tickets, send in a letter explaining that you're doing so because there's no playoff.

I like how it is right now just fine, although I certainly wouldn't mind that +1 thing they've occasionally brought up.

However, for the ten gazillion of you who are so abso-frickin'-lutely dead-set that college football is a travesty as it currently stands...

Well, I can't say it any plainer than this. Put your money where your mouth is, or STFU.

You either quit going to games, quit watching games, and protest, or you smile and eat the big, steaming turd sandwich you've been given.

It seems the majority of college fans support a playoff. Those same majority support the *CURRENT* system in the only way that matters: By continuing to open up their wallets every time the schools demand it.

This'd be like spending all your time complaining about Dubya (if we lived in a world without presidential term limits) and then voting for him again. If you feel the way you do, why are you supporting the status quo with the only vote you really have? Vote with your feet, man. Otherwise, they're never gonna change it.

[Stoop Dawg]

If the playoff system was such a roaring success, the "championship" division would draw fans.

They don't even fill the stands of those ****ant tiny little stadiums they have during the regular season.

Hell, they don't fill the stands during their *championship* games.

So if the "championship" division switched to bowl games, then the stadiums would fill up? This line of reasoning is completely absurd.


Proof is in the pudding, and the only way you're going to get a new system is if the current system "breaks". Awarding the wrong team a trophy ain't "broken" by university standards. Empty seats in the stadium is. In fact, game attendance is one of the standards by which teams are accepted into Division 1-A. Er, I mean, the "Bowl conference", or whatever the fudge they call it now.

So the reason Boren wrote a letter to the NCAA last year regarding the Oregon game is because he was afraid that Memorial Stadium would stop selling out if he didn't?

Good one.


However, for the ten gazillion of you who are so abso-frickin'-lutely dead-set that college football is a travesty as it currently stands...

Well, I can't say it any plainer than this. Put your money where your mouth is, or STFU.

What do you have to say to those of us who like college football, but want to improve it? Please say it plainly or I might not understand it.


It seems the majority of college fans support a playoff. Those same majority support the *CURRENT* system in the only way that matters: By continuing to open up their wallets every time the schools demand it.

This'd be like spending all your time complaining about Dubya (if we lived in a world without presidential term limits) and then voting for him again. If you feel the way you do, why are you supporting the status quo with the only vote you really have? Vote with your feet, man. Otherwise, they're never gonna change it.

Your analagy is horrible. It would be more like complaining about a few of Dubya's policies that you don't agree with, then "voting" for him again because HE'S THE ONLY CANDIDATE.

Let's have a bowl system AND a playoff and see which one draws more fans. Okie-dokie?

[Collier11]

You either quit going to games, quit watching games, and protest, or you smile and eat the big, steaming turd sandwich you've been given.

It seems the majority of college fans support a playoff. Those same majority support the *CURRENT* system in the only way that matters: By continuing to open up their wallets every time the schools demand it.



this isnt exactly realistic now is it, no matter how dissatisfied we are with the current system (and the overwhelming majority are ****ed) why should our teams have to suffer by not supporting them. Is it Coach Stoops and the players fault...NO! Is it the Greedy AD's and Presidents, in most cases yes. The only thing we can do is flood them with emails, letters, and phone calls(not hateful ones either or it ruins our argument), we can protest, but I am not going to start avoiding OU games because these people are too selfish to do the logical thing which is let the championship be played out on the field like every other F'n sport!

[RedstickSooner]

Like I said, you have to *DO* something if you want this to change.

If you can't cut back on watching OU (Lord knows, I couldn't), then don't watch any other college football. Don't watch ESPN's college football show -- avoid being the die-hard fans which we all are. (I assume everyone on this board is a die-hard fan, otherwise, why would they spend the time it takes to participate in a forum like this? Casual fans rarely get that involved.)

I'm surprised I got such angry replies. I did NOT say you were wrong in wanting a playoff, I said that I don't mind the current system (although I argued that the other college football divisions which have playoffs don't experience much success). Basketball is the other college sport trotted out in the argument, but we've all heard those arguments before.

My central point remains: Provided college football continues to enjoy superb ratings, and superb fan participation, it will not change. We're talking a goose that's laying some awesome golden eggs, folks.

If all you do is tell them you want them to change, why should they?

You're saying this to them at the exact same time you're paying all the fee hikes, and filling every seat in the stadium.

Is dropping support for our team the answer? Well, it's *an* answer -- although it's one I'd hate. Really, though, it's the across-the-board ratings & interest in college football which'd be the best way to affect things.

If you've got an action that'd work, then suggest it. Being vocal won't change anything. I don't know how university presidents and boards of regents are selected, but unless you can get *on* one of those boards, I don't know that your complaints are enough.

You can, of course, threaten to stop any & all alumni donations to the university unless it changes its official stance on a playoff -- and if alumni of other universities did the same, you could eventually effect a change in the system. But that depends on whether you're currently donating anything to the university beyond any "mandatory" donations they extort from you for your season tickets.

Again, if going without the Sooners is too much, then you can make sure you don't watch anyone else play. Ignore every other team, at least on television. It's television ratings & revenue which drives a huuuuuuge part of the current status quo. If those ratings drop precipitously across the board, then *maybe* university presidents will start to listen.

Frankly, it'd have to be an organized thing, for it to achieve its goal. Just like a political party gives power to its members (or any organization which lobbies for its members), you have to have organization and publicly stated goals to achieve much.

Just being a ****ed off majority probably won't get you anywhere. You have to take action -- and I don't mean letter writing. Heck, write your congressman about it. When those ****ant little schools from the crud conferences got their congressmen complaining, it forced the BCS to include 'em. Maybe we should let congress get involved again. Congress, after all, DOES care about what the majority wants. Plus, when you keep them busy with crap like this that they shouldn't stick their noses into, it keeps them from screwing anything else up which *really* matters.

;)

[MextheBulldog]

what we have here is a crusader :pop:
http://www.sulinet.hu/eletmod/kultura/mozi/vidiota/aszakasz/szakasz2.jpg

Amen to that

[Leroy Lizard]

Ah, the old "a playoff is obviously not viable because it doesn't already exist" argument.

I am not saying they are not viable. I am saying that there must be resistance out there. If you want to change, you need to address those issues.

So, who doesn't want a playoff? (I'm not talking about people hanging out watching tv in the dorms. I'm talking about those that have real power in this discussion.)

Why don't they want playoffs?

How do you convince them to change their minds? (Bellyaching is not going to do the trick.)

Nothing that has been printed here is going to change my mind if I'm a college president. I have my priorities and no one has bothered to address my priorities. It's all about "what the fan wants." "Screw the fans" is what I would think. After all, you're going to attend the games anyway, so how badly do you really need a playoff?


You're saying this to them at the exact same time you're paying all the fee hikes, and filling every seat in the stadium.

Bingo!

And I would add that you can make changes even if sales are up if you can convince them that a dire need must be filled. For example, if bowl games were causing serious physical injury, that would be a good reason. If bowl games were causing academic problems, that would be a good reason. If bowl games violated civil rights, that would be a good reason.

"Me wanna' mo entertainment!" is not a good reason. "Me gotta know who's best or I can't sleep at night!" is not a good reason. "Me not gonna attend games if there is no playoff... but I really will because I love college football" is not a good reason.

[sanantoniosooner]

LeRoy..........I think there was a point where I kind of agreed with you........

but it was so many pages back that I forgot what it was and now I just want to stab your eyes out with a coat hanger.;)

[FaninAma]

Then where is the playoff?

If there were really no problems with playoffs, no problems with academics, no problems with Christmas Breaks, tons of money... if there are only good things with playoffs, then why didn't the greedy college ADs and presidents form them many years ago?

There must be reasons to resist playoffs. And I know these reasons. You would too if you would just think about it for awhile. It isn't so rosy as you picture.

The bowl system offers a lot of great things for college football, but fans are too myopic to appreciate them. They only focus on the negatives and think that any alternative will make the problems go away.

The drivel that comes out of your posts is just mind-numbing. It's like trying to use logic with my kids when they were 3 years old. Every thought process they had was circular....ie it was flawed and it ended up at the same point over and over.

Leroy Lizard= the proverbial brick wall and it is an immense waste of time trying to discuss this or most other subjects with him.

[sanantoniosooner]

The drivel that comes out of your posts is just mind-numbing. It's like trying to use logic with my kids when they were 3 years old. Every thought process they had was circular....ie it was flawed and it ended up at the same point over and over.

Leroy Lizard= the proverbial brick wall and it is an immense waste of time trying to discuss this or most other subjects with him.
dude.........you're the same thing on the other side;)

[Leroy Lizard]

The drivel that comes out of your posts is just mind-numbing.

We are adults. Surely we can come up with better responses than that.

[PLaw]

HMMMMM. Texas has there high school championships this weekend. Oh yeah, in most districts, the last day of school for the semester was yesterday. Let's see, my son started practice two weeks before school started.

I think the kids coming from most teams that go deep into the HS playoffs can handle it at the next level.

[Curly Bill]

If the playoff system was such a roaring success, the "championship" division would draw fans.

They don't even fill the stands of those ****ant tiny little stadiums they have during the regular season.

Hell, they don't fill the stands during their *championship* games.

Proof is in the pudding, and the only way you're going to get a new system is if the current system "breaks". Awarding the wrong team a trophy ain't "broken" by university standards. Empty seats in the stadium is. In fact, game attendance is one of the standards by which teams are accepted into Division 1-A. Er, I mean, the "Bowl conference", or whatever the fudge they call it now.

For all the annual hair pulling, ****ing & moaning -- college football is as successful as it has *ever* been. Why in the world would it remotely consider changing?

Like I said, there's only one way to change this system, if that's what you want -- you have to break it.

That means quit going to games. Quit watching on TV. When you cancel your season tickets, send in a letter explaining that you're doing so because there's no playoff.

I like how it is right now just fine, although I certainly wouldn't mind that +1 thing they've occasionally brought up.

However, for the ten gazillion of you who are so abso-frickin'-lutely dead-set that college football is a travesty as it currently stands...

Well, I can't say it any plainer than this. Put your money where your mouth is, or STFU.

You either quit going to games, quit watching games, and protest, or you smile and eat the big, steaming turd sandwich you've been given.

It seems the majority of college fans support a playoff. Those same majority support the *CURRENT* system in the only way that matters: By continuing to open up their wallets every time the schools demand it.

This'd be like spending all your time complaining about Dubya (if we lived in a world without presidential term limits) and then voting for him again. If you feel the way you do, why are you supporting the status quo with the only vote you really have? Vote with your feet, man. Otherwise, they're never gonna change it.

Well said! :D

[Leroy Lizard]

Oh yeah, in most districts, the last day of school for the semester was yesterday.

Holy s**t! Can you be bothered to think about the differences between high school football and Div. 1A college football for just five minutes before posting?

And if you are completely unable to see the differences between the two, then I will gladly fill you in.

[Rock Hard Corn Frog]

Holy s**t! Can you be bothered to think about the differences between high school football and Div. 1A college football for just five minutes before posting?

And if you are completely unable to see the differences between the two, then I will gladly fill you in.


http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/KLN/SM113~Please-Go-Suck-Someplace-Else-Posters.jpg

[Desert Sapper]

HMMMMM. Texas has there high school championships this weekend. Oh yeah, in most districts, the last day of school for the semester was yesterday. Let's see, my son started practice two weeks before school started.

I think the kids coming from most teams that go deep into the HS playoffs can handle it at the next level.

This is a good point. And it brings everything back to proof positive that this nonsense about finals is not what any of this has to do with. The real opposition is afraid that the same volume of money would not be made in any playoff system. Think from the perspective of a BCS conference commissioner (the distinguished gentlemen *cough* that determine what happens at the end of a collegiate season). With the current system, you have a guaranteed $17M from the Bowl tie-in of your conference. If, by chance (because that's what it amounts to -- Illinois), your conference gets TWO teams in BCS games, it guarantees another $4.5M for your conference, plus whatever the payouts are from the other bowl games you automatically have a tie into.

The threat that a playoff poses is:

a) It may threaten the existing 'minor bowls' and their payouts that range from $250K for the MPC to $4.25M for the Capital One. That is reason enough.

b) The possibility of getting TWO teams into the BCS, and therefore increasing the net income by $4.5M (more in the future, to be sure), diminishes greatly with an equitable playoff.

c) Teams from 'lesser' conferences would actually have an opportunity to compete for a championship, thereby increasing their status and their conference status at the expense of the BCS conferences. If Boise had beat tOSU instead of us last year in Glendale and taken home a crystal ball, for example, all the big money that flows with national television, merchandising, and the like, would be in jeopardy.

So, in essence, the reason is $$, giant, green $$.

All this arguing about finals and taking care of student athletes is ignoring the elephant in the room. Student-athletes, especially football players, bring money to the school. Lots of money. If you don't believe it, take a look at the team bus in Glendale this year. It didn't get that paint job because of the Volleyball team.

A playoff threatens that income. Bottom line.

[Collier11]

We are adults. Surely we can come up with better responses than that.


pot meet kettle!

[PLaw]

Holy s**t! Can you be bothered to think about the differences between high school football and Div. 1A college football for just five minutes before posting?

And if you are completely unable to see the differences between the two, then I will gladly fill you in.

Please do. Enlighten me! I'm just a dumb, old Okie from Garvin County.

Here's what I do know:

1) High School football in Texas is a year round endeavor. Between 7 on 7 and summer conditioning which rolls into the season, to off season conditioning and spring football. There is very little down time. Sounds alot like most college schedules. In the spirit of Hawkins, "THIS IS TEXAS HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL for Gosh sakes. There is no time for vacations!"

2) Alot of the kids in HS are taking pre-AP or AP (that's Advance Placement, Leroy) which gives them college credits. I would venture to say that most High School kids are taking an equivalent 15 to 16 hour college load. I think you would be hard pressed to find many Div 1 athletes taking more than 15 hrs with the majority taking the 12 hr minimum and 3 of those hours are in the TTU "Fun Machine" category.

BOOMER

[PLaw]

So, in essence, the reason is $$, giant, green $$.

A playoff threatens that income. Bottom line.

Spot On, Desert Sapper!

That's what makes it such a shame. Because in the big scheme, that $17MM is relatively chump change.

BOOMER

[Leroy Lizard]

Please do. Enlighten me! I'm just a dumb, old Okie from Garvin County.

Well, since you are a dumb, old Okie from Garvin County (your words, not mine) I will tell you ONE difference. (And there are plenty of others, but I figure that I will keep it simple for you.)

You ready for this?

High school players live at home. In other words, they are with their family practically all of the time.

College football players live on campus. Lamont Robinson's family lives in New Jersey. I seriously doubt he has seen much of his family since August. (I can't be sure because I don't know Lamont.)

But to you, they are the same. No difference at all.

Now, if you want to try and glean some of the other differences between high school and college football, feel free. If you need help, let me know.

[PLaw]

High school players live at home. In other words, they are with their family practically all of the time.

Now, if you want to try and glean some of the other differences between high school and college football, feel free. If you need help, let me know.

Duh?? And this is relevant? Leroy, Leroy. You can do better than that.

[Collier11]

Well, since you are a dumb, old Okie from Garvin County (your words, not mine) I will tell you ONE difference. (And there are plenty of others, but I figure that I will keep it simple for you.)

You ready for this?

High school players live at home. In other words, they are with their family practically all of the time.

College football players live on campus. Lamont Robinson's family lives in New Jersey. I seriously doubt he has seen much of his family since August. (I can't be sure because I don't know Lamont.)

But to you, they are the same. No difference at all.

Now, if you want to try and glean some of the other differences between high school and college football, feel free. If you need help, let me know.


You are dumb!!! If you need me to confirm this any further than your stupid self-serving posts, just let me know!!

[Leroy Lizard]

You guys are right. High school football and Div. 1A college football are the same. Lamont Robinson's parents have moved in to his dorm room with him, and high school players are playing their championship games halfway across the country. :rolleyes:

[birddog]

still?