Mitchell Report

[GrapevineSooner]

about OH MY GOODNESS ROGAH CLEMENS!!!

[Paperclip]

I'm trying to decide if I'll be surprised at any names that come out today. I think I'd be surprised at Jeter, but that's probably it. I fully expect several of my Tigers including Sheffield and Pudge.

[walkoffsooner]

That would surprise me. But I would enjoy watching big Tex suffer a little.

[rufnek05]

**** going to hit the fan or will there just be some slaps on the wrist?

I think Clemens will retire for good after this, but he will still get into the HoF.

[colleyvillesooner]

Who DIDN'T think Roge was on the juice?

[OU4LIFE]

The guy is a freaking director on the board of the Boston Red Sox, I just don't see how this can be unbiased.

[TripleOption14]

So now that we know everybody worth anything was probably juicing can we now stop the Bonds witch hunt?!?!?! This is great. Reap it Selig!!! :D

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Look at photos of Clemens from his last couple of years at Boston and the next season at Toronto. Clemens is more obvious to me than Bonds.

[Curly Bill]

So now that we know everybody worth anything was probably juicing can we now stop the Bonds witch hunt?!?!?!

No :D

[TripleOption14]

No :D

:D OK and if baseball shares your sentiments I want them to go after all these "big name" players with the same vigilance and malice as they did with Bonds.

[The Maestro]

I heard Clemens strength was a product of Tae-Bo. Just sayin'.

[GrapevineSooner]

A few notable Red Sox past and present on the list:

Nomar, Tek, and Trot

UPDATE: Or not

My co-worker sent me a link from the Newberg Report that said their names would be included in the report. I just did a quick search and did not find their names.

[Scott D]

I have no joy in being "right" about it. In 15 minutes there are going to be a lot of names being dragged through the mud. I expect at least a handful of Yankees, Mets, Dodgers, and Cardinals on that list.

[Scott D]

I heard Clemens strength was a product of Tae-Bo. Just sayin'.

damn designer drugs. Is it Balco made or Chinese made? ;)

[Scott D]

Mitchell Report (http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf)

Nice 6.5 meg file for 78 pages of the investigation.

[Scott D]

BTW, Clemens is on page 167. Brian Roberts also named, Larry Bigbie, Lenny Dykstra, Rondell White, Chuck Knoblauch, David Justice, Mo Vaughn, Miguel Tejada, Paul Lo Duca, Fernando Vina, Kevin Brown, Eric Gagne, Rick Ankiel, Paul Byrd, Jay Gibbons,

[Scott D]

God I wish Donald Fehr would drop dead of being a giant a**hole.


Because of certain actions by the Government in 2004 (which led to
litigation, much of which has been under seal), the parties were forced to
confront a serious threat to the confidentiality and integrity of our
program. To combat that threat, and indeed to save the credibility of our
program, the parties undertook certain measures in that year only. These
were not unilateral actions undertaken by the MLBPA, but actions
discussed and agreed upon between the MLBPA and the Commissioner’s
Office. Each party was fully aware and in agreement with the steps the
other was taking.
The MLBPA believes that, by publishing in this Report anything related to
these subjects, Senator Mitchell and the Commissioner’s Office are
breaching promises of confidentiality made to the MLBPA and to its
members.
.

[Mjcpr]

Lenny Dykstra?!

No way.

[Scott D]

Lenny Dykstra?!

No way.

yeah, about as surprising as Juan Gonzales' name being on there.

[Okla-homey]

Who cares? We watch professional sports to see awesome athuletic feats. Therefore, I think pro athletes should be required to use performance enhancing drugs under their contracts. It would make it more exciting.

If their heart assplodes when they're 50, oh well...they made some serious coin and had it mighty good till then. ;)

In the meantime, we could have a chance of seeing a guy rip another guy's arm off on the basketball court, or catch a line drive by leaping 12 feet in the air.

[rufnek05]

Eric Gagne?? I don't believe it! Its all whey protein.

[illinisooner]

Alot of the guys we already knew or had reason to believe; the way Arte Moreno spoke earlier, I thought guys like Pujols, Ramirez, etc would be in there.

[LittleWingSooner]

Here's the list. I bolded some of the bigger names

Lenny Dykstra
David Segui
Larry Bigbie
Brian Roberts
Jack Cust
Tim Laker
Josias Manzanillo
Todd Hundley
Mark Carreon
Hal Morris
Matt Franco
Rondell White
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettitte
Chuck Knoblauch
Jason Grimsley
Gregg Zaun
David Justice
F.P. Santangelo
Glenallen Hill
Mo Vaughn
Denny Neagle
Ron Villone
Ryan Franklin
Chris Donnels
Todd Williams
Phil Hiatt
Todd Pratt
Kevin Young
Mike Lansing
Cody McKay
Kent Mercker
Adam Piatt
Miguel Tejada
Jason Christiansen
Mike Stanton
Stephen Randolph
Jerry Hairston, Jr.
Paul Lo Duca
Adam Riggs
Bart Miadich
Fernando Vina
Kevin Brown
Eric Gagné
Mike Bell
Matt Herges
Gary Bennett, Jr.
Jim Parque
Brendan Donnelly
Chad Allen
Jeff Williams
Howie Clark
Exavier "Nook" Logan

[Scott D]

Who cares? We watch professional sports to see awesome athuletic feats. Therefore, I think pro athletes should be required to use performance enhancing drugs under their contracts. It would make it more exciting.

If their heart assplodes when they're 50, oh well...they made some serious coin and had it mighty good till then. ;)

In the meantime, we could have a chance of seeing a guy rip another guy's arm off on the basketball court, or catch a line drive by leaping 12 feet in the air.

Tell that to Mike Webster's family.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I wonder if Chuck Knoblauch took them to help him throw to first base. and if he did he should ask for his money back

[Curly Bill]

:D OK and if baseball shares your sentiments I want them to go after all these "big name" players with the same vigilance and malice as they did with Bonds.

More then OK with me.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Eric Gagne?? I don't believe it! Its all whey protein.


If whey protein adds 7-9 MPH on a fastball that quickly, I m headed to GNC

[Ruuuuuufus]

pretty much nothing new

[JohnnyMack]

I wonder if this report will change the public perception of Barry Bonds?

[fadada1]

If whey protein adds 7-9 MPH on a fastball that quickly, I m headed to the local church league.
me too.:D

[Paperclip]

Tell that to Mike Webster's family.

I thought his troubles were concussion related.

[MextheBulldog]

Golden boy Roger is BUSTED!

[MextheBulldog]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3153509

"According to McNamee, from the time that McNamee injected Clemens with Winstrol through the end of the 1998 season, Clemens' performance showed remarkable improvement. "During this period of improved performance, Clemens told McNamee that the steroids 'had a pretty good effect' on him.''

McNamee also told investigators that "during the middle of the 2000 season, Clemens made it clear that he was ready to use steroids again. During the latter part of the regular season, McNamee injected Clemens in the buttocks four to six times with testosterone from a bottle labeled either Sustanon 250 or Deca-Durabolin."

[Mixer!]

So Albert Belle was clean? Brady Anderson and Sammy Sosa too? :rolleyes:

[Scott D]

I thought his troubles were concussion related.

The dementia/depression that led to his ultimate demise was concussion related.


It is universally believed that Webster's ailments were the result of damage sustained over his playing career, and some doctors estimated he had been in the equivalent of "25,000 automobile crashes" in over 35 years of playing football at various levels. Protective equipment, in particular helmets, was inferior during Webster's time, and defensive players sometimes employed a "head slap" move that was then accepted although illegal. Nicknamed "Iron Mike", Webster's reputation for durability led him to play even though injured. While widely believed to have used them, Webster never admitted to using anabolic steroids at points during his career. He did state, however, that if he did take steroids, "they were legal at the time".

It had been widely whispered that the Steelers offensive line during the glory days was full of steroid users, the only admitted player was Steve Courson.

[Scott D]

So Albert Belle was clean? Brady Anderson and Sammy Sosa too? :rolleyes:

Joey Belle was always an angry guy. Brady wouldn't talk to Mitchell, Sosa's forever linked to McGwire and Palmiero no matter what he does. Personally I think this list is probably about 5% of the players who were using either roids or hgh in the past 10 years.

[Soonerfan85]

This is a great day!!!

My 8 year old son and I can afford to see the Sooners in person more than once next season cause we ain't gonna be spending $$$ going to see the Astros next year. Maybe ever.

[Mixer!]

Joey Belle was always an angry guy. Brady wouldn't talk to Mitchell, Sosa's forever linked to McGwire and Palmiero no matter what he does. Personally I think this list is probably about 5% of the players who were using either roids or hgh in the past 10 years. I'll always be suspicious of Belle and his bad hip. And since Clemens' name came up, I would've been :stunned: if Nolan Ryan and his post-gamepitching regimen had made the list. :eek:

[NormanPride]

Is Chase Daniel on this list? ;)

[soonerinabilene]

I wonder if Chuck Knoblauch took them to help him throw to first base. and if he did he should ask for his money back

I think he got estrogen instead of testosterone.

[JohnnyMack]

I'm sure Donald Fehr was his usual helpful self in all this.

[tulsaoilerfan]

Really much ado about nothing IMO; only a handful of big names, and a bunch of nobodies

[Poli Sci]

I just want to say that the ESPN Baseball apologists are making me sick. They have obviously taken the side of the players, by questioning the soures of the Mitchell Report. What makes me sicker is that fools such as Peter Gammons, Tim Kurkjan, and John Kruk "aren't ready to believe the report." I am willing to bet any amount of money you want to that if Roger Clemens was black that ESPN would be condemning and hassling him in the manner that they have with Barry Bonds. IMO

[soonerinabilene]

I just want to say that the ESPN Baseball apologists are making me sick. They have obviously taken the side of the players, by questioning the soures of the Mitchell Report. What makes me sicker is that fools such as Peter Gammons, Tim Kurkjan, and John Kruk "aren't ready to believe the report." I am willing to bet any amount of money you want to that if Roger Clemens was black that ESPN would be condemning and hassling him in the manner that they have with Barry Bonds. IMO

Yeah, cuz espn has always been against the black man...:rolleyes:

Tim Kurkjan just said this morning that he is still voting for Bonds and Clemens for the HOF when they come up, Peter Gammons said the winner in all of this is Barry Bonds because he is no longer the face of steroids, and John Kruk had a turkey leg shoved in his mouth the whole time so he couldnt say anything. I disagree with a lot of what espn does, but saying they report based on race has to be the dumbest thing I will hear today. Hopefully.

[Poli Sci]

When the steroid issue first surfaced with Bonds there were people who claimed that he was being pursued because of his race. At the time I thought it was the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard. By seeing the response of people yesterday towards Clemens, especially the prior mentioned names; I am convinced that race has played a role in the treatment of both Bonds and Clemens. People were ready to throw Bonds under the bus by non-statements of his trainer and his own "Mitchell Report', called "Game of Shadows." When the evidence was released on Bonds he immediately became a villain. When the same type of evidence is released against Clemens as Bonds people are ready to wait and see with white athlete. Say what you will, but this will become a big issue in the near future.

[Scott D]

Race isn't the bigger issue. Bonds being abrasive in comparison to Clemens is the bigger issue.

The problem as it sits now, is you've got a paper trail a few miles long in regards to Bonds and Balco, whereas with Clemens (who people here will tell you, I said was a roid user months ago)the only paper trail are a couple of cancelled checks and the word of his personal trainer who is alleged to have supplied a few more Yankees than just Clemens.

What I'm really hoping the Mitchell Report does do, is get Federal Investigators in with Subpoena power to get these players/gms/trainers/clubhouse attendants/etc to testify under oath in regards to Steroids. I hope at minimum it leads to a process that leaves Donald Fehr unemployed and the MLBPA halfway shattered, along with Baseball's Anti-trust protection being shattered.

[Collier11]

Havent read many posts on this thread but The Mitchell Report IMO was a complete waste of time and money! It told us nothing new, it gave us no new ideas, and it did nothing to help the problem. Selig should be embarrassed for even ordering this, it took two years and a 400 pg report for his dumb azz to decide that "action will be take". Give me a break, this report is a joke just like his tenure as commissioner and Selig along with the owners is just as much of a problem as the players who take the drugs! EMBARRASING!

[Collier11]

Also, those of you who are crying race are wrong, dead wrong! Bonds is the biggest name in baseball and he not only cheated the game, he committed a federal offense in perjury. He will get what is coming to him and it has nothing to do with the color of his skin, it has to do with his complete arrogance towards the law and the game of baseball!

[Scott D]

Actually Manny Alexander was one of two Red Sox (at some point) that were named.

[BarryBnds]

Race isn't the bigger issue. Bonds being abrasive in comparison to Clemens is the bigger issue.

I'm a Bonds supporter obviously and do I think that race has EVERYTHING to do with it??? Absolutely not. Am I naive enough to think that race doesn't have a great deal to do with it? Absolutely not. Look I'm a white guy which I can assume most of us on the board are. None of us can accurately begin to determine when race is a motive or not. Why do you think the majority of African Americans polled think it's about race? Because they deal with this sh*t every day. You say it's because Bonds is abrasive and I call BS on that. Who has he been abrasive to? Me? No, I've never met him. You? I doubt you've met him either. I doubt anyone on this board has ever had a conversation with the man but we are supposed to believe that because he doesn't like the media he's a bad guy???? From what I've heard of media around the country Clemens is alot like Schilling in that he is a phony. I'd rather have someone be honest and tell the media to F off than me believe the guy is a great guy when he's a prick ala Kirby Puckett. I'm not saying Bonds didn't do steroids. I'm just saying that venom with which he was attacked isn't near the amount of criticism the 80+ players will ever get once this is all said and done. Is it just about race? No way. But you'd be remiss if you said it didn't play a major role.


The problem as it sits now, is you've got a paper trail a few miles long in regards to Bonds and Balco, whereas with Clemens (who people here will tell you, I said was a roid user months ago)the only paper trail are a couple of cancelled checks and the word of his personal trainer who is alleged to have supplied a few more Yankees than just Clemens.

I think this is the biggest problem in that people want to believe that Bonds did it and don't want to believe Clemens did it. You can say that there was alot more evidence that Bonds did it but not one person has come out and said I didn't do it that the trainer named. Yet everyone is coming out and saying yes I did it. Including his Pettite, Clemens' personal bitch.

The thing I find disconcerting are a couple of things:

1. Baseball owners and management seem to be getting a free pass on this deal. Gammons said it best that the ones that profitted the most were the owners which Bud Selig is a part of. Selig keeps trying to heap loads of sh*t on others when this thing is going to get a whole lot worse.

2. Only 2 people cooperated in the investigation and they brought out 80 names. And these were 2 nobodies. What does that tell you about the amount of information that has not come out yet??

[colleyvillesooner]

I think Bonds did them. I think Clemens did them.

Why do most people give Barry more **** for it? Not cause he's black, but because he's a GIANT *******.

NO I've never met him, but I've seen and read interviews where he portrays himself as one.

[BarryBnds]

I think Bonds did them. I think Clemens did them.

Why do most people give Barry more **** for it? Not cause he's black, but because he's a GIANT *******.

NO I've never met him, but I've seen and read interviews where he portrays himself as one.

In an interview he portrays himself as one or the reporter portrays him of being one. Quit being a sheep and form an opinion for yourself. What makes you think Clemens is so different in real life?

[Scott D]

I'm a Bonds supporter obviously and do I think that race has EVERYTHING to do with it??? Absolutely not. Am I naive enough to think that race doesn't have a great deal to do with it? Absolutely not. Look I'm a white guy which I can assume most of us on the board are. None of us can accurately begin to determine when race is a motive or not. Why do you think the majority of African Americans polled think it's about race? Because they deal with this sh*t every day. You say it's because Bonds is abrasive and I call BS on that. Who has he been abrasive to? Me? No, I've never met him. You? I doubt you've met him either. I doubt anyone on this board has ever had a conversation with the man but we are supposed to believe that because he doesn't like the media he's a bad guy???? From what I've heard of media around the country Clemens is alot like Schilling in that he is a phony. I'd rather have someone be honest and tell the media to F off than me believe the guy is a great guy when he's a prick ala Kirby Puckett. I'm not saying Bonds didn't do steroids. I'm just saying that venom with which he was attacked isn't near the amount of criticism the 80+ players will ever get once this is all said and done. Is it just about race? No way. But you'd be remiss if you said it didn't play a major role.

How's this, I'm African American, and I still feel that the bigger issue was the fact that Bonds has always been surly/abrasive with the media than Clemens has ever dreamed of being. I never said that perhaps race wasn't a role in the matter, hell if you'd read anything I've ever said about Clemens you'd know that I've always said that he was protected by a 'good ole boy network' via ownership/media. I personally think that the unnamed player that was warned about testing in the report was Clemens himself.

I'll also say it because I've been there, and I've gotten to a spot 'above it'. Depending on who and where you are polling someone (in this case the African Americans in question), I guarantee you that in the inner city of most cities, EVERY issue that can be considered to be 'holding back' advancement is a Race Issue. It can't be viewed as a 'black officials are as corrupt as white officials' issue, but because in some places the 'white suburbs' are more affluent and protected than some urban areas, it's the state/county government being racist and holding them back. I could throw out polls where there are such disparaging differences in the opinions of both blacks and whites as to perception of progress over the last 40 years has changed. One thing is certain, the percentage of blacks who think things are better as a whole is one hell of a lot lower than whites polled on the same social issues.

Also pumpkin, I've been one of the few people who has defended Bonds to some degree on this board. Mainly out of respect for his ability, and the kind of men his father and godfather were/are.




I think this is the biggest problem in that people want to believe that Bonds did it and don't want to believe Clemens did it. You can say that there was alot more evidence that Bonds did it but not one person has come out and said I didn't do it that the trainer named. Yet everyone is coming out and saying yes I did it. Including his Pettite, Clemens' personal bitch.

The thing I find disconcerting are a couple of things:

1. Baseball owners and management seem to be getting a free pass on this deal. Gammons said it best that the ones that profitted the most were the owners which Bud Selig is a part of. Selig keeps trying to heap loads of sh*t on others when this thing is going to get a whole lot worse.

2. Only 2 people cooperated in the investigation and they brought out 80 names. And these were 2 nobodies. What does that tell you about the amount of information that has not come out yet??

I outed Clemens as a user months ago, why do you think a portion of the posts in this thread have a title of "I Guess Scott D Was Right"? I've also stated that I think those outed in the Mitchell Report are a fraction of the players who were guilty of using either Steroids or HGH during the period in question.

Of course the owners benefited from players using steroids/hgh. They needed something to put asses in seats, and the short attention spanned American public loves the long ball. It was plenty easy for them to turn a blind eye to the problem. Players profited from it as well, as is shown by the ridiculous contracts that even scrub players get.

As for the cooperation issue, despite their claims to the contrary, the MLBPA issued a blanket gag order on players who wanted any chance of continuing their career beyond 2006 from talking with George Mitchell. Truthfully, if Congress had put him in charge of this investigation instead of Bud Selig, this thing would have been a lot larger, because he would have had the power of subpoena. As a side note, that means that names would have been leaked to the media a lot earlier as was in regards to a lot of the 'sealed' information from the Balco investigation.

[Collier11]

How's this, I'm African American, and I still feel that the bigger issue was the fact that Bonds has always been surly/abrasive with the media than Clemens has ever dreamed of being. I never said that perhaps race wasn't a role in the matter, hell if you'd read anything I've ever said about Clemens you'd know that I've always said that he was protected by a 'good ole boy network' via ownership/media. I personally think that the unnamed player that was warned about testing in the report was Clemens himself.

I'll also say it because I've been there, and I've gotten to a spot 'above it'. Depending on who and where you are polling someone (in this case the African Americans in question), I guarantee you that in the inner city of most cities, EVERY issue that can be considered to be 'holding back' advancement is a Race Issue. It can't be viewed as a 'black officials are as corrupt as white officials' issue, but because in some places the 'white suburbs' are more affluent and protected than some urban areas, it's the state/county government being racist and holding them back. I could throw out polls where there are such disparaging differences in the opinions of both blacks and whites as to perception of progress over the last 40 years has changed. One thing is certain, the percentage of blacks who think things are better as a whole is one hell of a lot lower than whites polled on the same social issues.

Also pumpkin, I've been one of the few people who has defended Bonds to some degree on this board. Mainly out of respect for his ability, and the kind of men his father and godfather were/are.





I outed Clemens as a user months ago, why do you think a portion of the posts in this thread have a title of "I Guess Scott D Was Right"? I've also stated that I think those outed in the Mitchell Report are a fraction of the players who were guilty of using either Steroids or HGH during the period in question.

Of course the owners benefited from players using steroids/hgh. They needed something to put asses in seats, and the short attention spanned American public loves the long ball. It was plenty easy for them to turn a blind eye to the problem. Players profited from it as well, as is shown by the ridiculous contracts that even scrub players get.

As for the cooperation issue, despite their claims to the contrary, the MLBPA issued a blanket gag order on players who wanted any chance of continuing their career beyond 2006 from talking with George Mitchell. Truthfully, if Congress had put him in charge of this investigation instead of Bud Selig, this thing would have been a lot larger, because he would have had the power of subpoena. As a side note, that means that names would have been leaked to the media a lot earlier as was in regards to a lot of the 'sealed' information from the Balco investigation.


And the Lord said you Gotta RIIISSSEEE UP!!! :pop:

[BarryBnds]

How's this, I'm African American, and I still feel that the bigger issue was the fact that Bonds has always been surly/abrasive with the media than Clemens has ever dreamed of being. I never said that perhaps race wasn't a role in the matter, hell if you'd read anything I've ever said about Clemens you'd know that I've always said that he was protected by a 'good ole boy network' via ownership/media. I personally think that the unnamed player that was warned about testing in the report was Clemens himself.

I'll also say it because I've been there, and I've gotten to a spot 'above it'. Depending on who and where you are polling someone (in this case the African Americans in question), I guarantee you that in the inner city of most cities, EVERY issue that can be considered to be 'holding back' advancement is a Race Issue. It can't be viewed as a 'black officials are as corrupt as white officials' issue, but because in some places the 'white suburbs' are more affluent and protected than some urban areas, it's the state/county government being racist and holding them back. I could throw out polls where there are such disparaging differences in the opinions of both blacks and whites as to perception of progress over the last 40 years has changed. One thing is certain, the percentage of blacks who think things are better as a whole is one hell of a lot lower than whites polled on the same social issues.

Also pumpkin, I've been one of the few people who has defended Bonds to some degree on this board. Mainly out of respect for his ability, and the kind of men his father and godfather were/are.





I outed Clemens as a user months ago, why do you think a portion of the posts in this thread have a title of "I Guess Scott D Was Right"? I've also stated that I think those outed in the Mitchell Report are a fraction of the players who were guilty of using either Steroids or HGH during the period in question.

Of course the owners benefited from players using steroids/hgh. They needed something to put asses in seats, and the short attention spanned American public loves the long ball. It was plenty easy for them to turn a blind eye to the problem. Players profited from it as well, as is shown by the ridiculous contracts that even scrub players get.

As for the cooperation issue, despite their claims to the contrary, the MLBPA issued a blanket gag order on players who wanted any chance of continuing their career beyond 2006 from talking with George Mitchell. Truthfully, if Congress had put him in charge of this investigation instead of Bud Selig, this thing would have been a lot larger, because he would have had the power of subpoena. As a side note, that means that names would have been leaked to the media a lot earlier as was in regards to a lot of the 'sealed' information from the Balco investigation.

So basically you said everything I said. Race is an issue whether people want to say it is or not.

[Scott D]

So basically you said everything I said. Race is an issue whether people want to say it is or not.

I never said it wasn't an issue in regards to Barry Bonds. I said it wasn't the main overriding primary issue. It's the fact that he's not media friendly that is the primary issue. That's what created the perceived witch hunt. Also the point that perceptions are so vastly different between whites and minorities means there are going to be very differing opinions in regards to a matter. Also to be quite honest, polls are useless because they are never a truly accurate sampling of the population and are easily manipulated to produce the results the polling individuals want.

[colleyvillesooner]

In an interview he portrays himself as one or the reporter portrays him of being one. Quit being a sheep and form an opinion for yourself. What makes you think Clemens is so different in real life?

Dude, you're just a sheep in a Barry Bonds Jersey. Only difference.

I'm a consumer. Don't care what they are like in their personal life. I know which one publicly acted like a dick and which one didn't.

[JohnnyMack]

Dude, you're just a sheep in a Barry Bonds Jersey. Only difference.

I'm a consumer. Don't care what they are like in their personal life. I know which one publicly acted like a dick and which one didn't.

BAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

I think he was talking about your prom date.

:pop: