Is there something wrong...

[Okla-homey]

in a country in which every Quik Trip in town can manage to lease a ginormous industrial generator to power the store and gas pumps, but the public skools are still closed because there's no power?

Heck, just lay-off a few worthless "support personnel" and rent a generator for cryin' out loud.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of all the sekertary's bringing their little hoodlums to work because skool is shut.

[yermom]

the difference is that QT is losing money by being closed :D

have i mentioned that i love QT and that it's one of the big things i miss about Tulsa? :O

[Soonrboy]

Heck, just lay-off a few worthless "support personnel" and rent a generator for cryin' out loud.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of all the sekertary's bringing their little hoodlums to work because skool is shut.

Merry Christmas to you and yours also.

[Frozen Sooner]

School is not a baby-sitting service. At least, it's not supposed to be one. Responsible parents should probably have a back-up plan.

;)

[soonerboomer93]

for profit company vs drain on my pocket that needs to be seriously overhauled

[Frozen Sooner]

for profit company vs drain on my pocket that needs to be seriously overhauled

Er, you're an expat and a renter right?

[OUTromBoNado]

:sigh:

I moving to Amarillo next week. I already miss teh QT.

[soonerboomer93]

Er, you're an expat and a renter right?

until i arrive on Feb 1 yeah

don't have a place in the states right now though

but I still pay US income tax

[SoonerTerry]

lol,

Location: S. Korea

[Frozen Sooner]

until i arrive on Feb 1 yeah

don't have a place in the states right now though

but I still pay US income tax

The numbers I could quickly find on Google show $85.91 billion in federal education spending on a $2.9 trillion budget proposed for FY 2008-so slightly less than 3% of your US income tax is paying for schools.

I just thought that the "drain on my wallet" comment was interesting from someone who generally doesn't pay the majority of taxes that fund schools-local sales and property taxes.

[Sooner_Bob]

I think you could probably take the "drain on my wallet" comment to mean that parents are often asked (more like expected) to fork over additional cash to help cover the costs of school supplies or actually go and by the school supplies because the school won't or can't.

At least thats the way I saw it. :D

[IB4OU2]

I think you could probably take the "drain on my wallet" comment to mean that parents are often asked (more like expected) to fork over additional cash to help cover the costs of school supplies or actually go and by the school supplies because the school won't or can't.

At least thats the way I saw it. :D

My daughter pays for ALOT of supplies out of her measely teachers salary and if she doesn't have enough guess who she calls.

[Mjcpr]

My daughter pays for ALOT of supplies out of her measely teachers salary and if she doesn't have enough guess who she calls.

Yeah, but she gets what, six months off each year?

:D

[bri]

in a country in which every Quik Trip in town can manage to lease a ginormous industrial generator to power the store and gas pumps, but the public skools are still closed because there's no power?

Heck, just lay-off a few worthless "support personnel" and rent a generator for cryin' out loud.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of all the sekertary's bringing their little hoodlums to work because skool is shut.

I, for one, was very happy that QTs had a way to tell the icy death to f*ck off. Being a refugee in high-rise condos is fun, but even more fun when there's plenty of beer and fruity malt liquor for the ladies. :D

[Okla-homey]

TPS has formally announced its closed the rest of the week. I wonder if those days of instruction will be accomplished later in lieu of some of that that "in-service" bogosity which works a fraud on the taxpayers.

[IB4OU2]

I, for one, was very happy that QTs had a way to tell the icy death to f*ck off. Being a refugee in high-rise condos is fun, but even more fun when there's plenty of beer and fruity malt liquor for the ladies. :D

I'm glad too...I drove all over the neighborhood looking for firewood and finally found some at Quick Trip @ 4.99 a bundle!

[Hamhock]

I heard on KRMG that during the outages, QT could only pump premium, so they did it at regular price.


p.s. we haven't missed a day of school.

[sooner n houston]

QT is the best. There is nothing like it here in the Houston area. They have made the whole convience store market better and cheaper for y'all. I would love to have access to one again. Just one of many things I miss about Oklahoma!

[Miko]

My co. rents ginormous generators and we ran out in the central region days ago. Now what we rent isn't to power your coffee pot and wireless router but rather to power your neighborhood etc. It stinks having to turn people in need away, but our fleet is rented out. We got lots of calls early on from water treatment plants, food prep plants, etc.

The worse was having to tell a nursing home in tulsey that I had no suggested alternatives.

[Soonrboy]

Students have to be in school 175 days...has to be made up if missed. You know, homey, you make it sound like all people working in schools are just looking for a quick get away. I've had calls from almost everyone on my staff worried about what needs to be done by the end of the semester which is next Friday. They are talking about student learning, not how they are spending their days off. I've been up at my school looking around for damages, can't let anyone in because it still has no heat...I know you take every chance you can to make a dig at public schools, but your generalizations from the ivory tower are becoming a little sickening to me.

[IB4OU2]

Students have to be in school 175 days...has to be made up if missed. You know, homey, you make it sound like all people working in schools are just looking for a quick get away. I've had calls from almost everyone on my staff worried about what needs to be done by the end of the semester which is next Friday. They are talking about student learning, not how they are spending their days off. I've been up at my school looking around for damages, can't let anyone in because it still has no heat...I know you take every chance you can to make a dig at public schools, but your generalizations from the ivory tower are becoming a little sickening to me.

God Bless the TPS teachers....my daughter is one of them and I'm very proud. BTW, keep "Tulsa Fireman" in your thoughts this week, his/their job is awfully tough right now.

[Soonrboy]

God Bless the TPS teachers....my daughter is one of them and I'm very proud. BTW, keep "Tulsa Fireman" in your thoughts this week, his/their job is awfully tough right now.

You got it...plus all the line-men working

[Hamhock]

don't forget the cpa's.

[soonerboomer93]

The numbers I could quickly find on Google show $85.91 billion in federal education spending on a $2.9 trillion budget proposed for FY 2008-so slightly less than 3% of your US income tax is paying for schools.

I just thought that the "drain on my wallet" comment was interesting from someone who generally doesn't pay the majority of taxes that fund schools-local sales and property taxes.

in general, until they start fixing the US education system (ie, better pay for teachers, less pay for administrators. more money for books) I do consider it a drain on my wallet. In all fairness, I generally consider taxes a drain on my wallet anyways.

My income, as an expat is subject to US income tax, Colorado State income tax, Korean Income tax. I have to pay local VAT for all my local purchases here (10% on everything). I'm in a country that imports english speaking teachers. Most children learn atleast english as a second language in grade school. School is year round, with the elders kids spending more time at school then I do at work.

Additionally, I do spend plenty of money everytime I am home. My last trip home cost me over 6k out of my pocket. Not a dime of that includes the air fare from Korea back to the states. Of that, I spent only around 10% of it on online purchases. The rest were all purchases subject to local sales taxes.

[Okla-homey]

Students have to be in school 175 days...has to be made up if missed. You know, homey, you make it sound like all people working in schools are just looking for a quick get away. I've had calls from almost everyone on my staff worried about what needs to be done by the end of the semester which is next Friday. They are talking about student learning, not how they are spending their days off. I've been up at my school looking around for damages, can't let anyone in because it still has no heat...I know you take every chance you can to make a dig at public schools, but your generalizations from the ivory tower are becoming a little sickening to me.

When you people kick over the Twin Towers of Educational Reform Obstructionism (the NEA and its equally evile twin the AFT) and get solidly behind merit pay for teachers, whether everyone else gets a raise or not, and increase the annual instructional days beyond the level at which they have remained since 1907, I'll hush. In the meantime, you gotta take your licks.

Its a rotten system and it needs reform. Badly. You insiders are the only ones who won't admit it. In short, if you are not down with these things, you're part of the problem.

[Miko]

Yeah! And rent your generators early! First come, first serve. :D

[soonerboomer93]

lol,

Location: S. Korea

Sorry, I didn't realize that being outside of the US meant that I gave up my rights as a US citizen.

[Soonrboy]

Its a rotten system and it needs reform. Badly. You insiders are the only ones who won't admit it. In short, if you are not down with these things, you're part of the problem.

Another generalization. Just because you work for the public schools doesn't mean you agree with everything that happens. You make a change in the lives of the students you work with with what you have. In the interim, you push the decision makers to the needs and wants of the schools.

I'm not a part of the problem. I'm involved. Be the change you want to happen.

Guess it's easier to point at the problems and criticize them rather than become involved and try to implement change.

[Frozen Sooner]

in general, until they start fixing the US education system (ie, better pay for teachers, less pay for administrators. more money for books) I do consider it a drain on my wallet. In all fairness, I generally consider taxes a drain on my wallet anyways. Yeah, I agree with all of that-though probably I'd say keep admin pay the same and cut down the number of administrators.


My income, as an expat is subject to US income tax VERY little of which pays for schools, Colorado State income tax don't believe much of this goes to school, but I haven't looked at the CO budget numbers, Korean Income tax Irrelevant to this discussion. I have to pay local VAT for all my local purchases here (10% on everything). I'm in a country that imports english speaking teachers. Most children learn atleast english as a second language in grade school. School is year round, with the elders kids spending more time at school then I do at work. All irrelevant to the US education system being a drain on your wallet

My thoughts in bold. Additionally, I'm 100% behind year-round schooling, and most teachers I know are as well so long as the increase in contracted hours is recognized with a pay raise.


Additionally, I do spend plenty of money everytime I am home. My last trip home cost me over 6k out of my pocket. Not a dime of that includes the air fare from Korea back to the states. Of that, I spent only around 10% of it on online purchases. The rest were all purchases subject to local sales taxes.

See, you should do your shopping in Portland or Anchorage. :D

[TheLurker]

Does anyone know why there aren't Quiktrips in OKC when they're in DFW, KC, Atlanta, Phoenix, Omaha, and St. Louis?

[Mixer!]

I thought there was some sort of "gentleman's agreement" between QT & 7-11: QT stuck to Tulsa, 7-11 to OKC, and neither would encroach on the other's city. :pop:

[soonerboomer93]

Yeah, I agree with all of that-though probably I'd say keep admin pay the same and cut down the number of administrators.



My thoughts in bold. Additionally, I'm 100% behind year-round schooling, and most teachers I know are as well so long as the increase in contracted hours is recognized with a pay raise.



See, you should do your shopping in Portland or Anchorage. :D

Does the educational part of the Federal Budget include the grants schools get. I know in Texas they often use communications equipment grants to get computer equipment for the schools. I know they were doing this a few years ago. Yes, the computers were needed, but they were being used as a substitute for teaching and not as a way to compliment the learning.

How much of my money actually contributes to the education system matters very little, because most of it isn't being spent wisely. This is the same as the vast majority of my tax dollars though.


Anything that takes money out of my pocket unwilling is a drain on my wallet.

[Okla-homey]

Does anyone know why there aren't Quiktrips in OKC when they're in DFW, KC, Atlanta, Phoenix, Omaha, and St. Louis?


Love's and QT have the corporate equivalent of a treaty. Love's won't open where there are QT's and vicey versy. I got that from a reasonably reliable source, although I've never seen it in print. The upshot is, if you have Love's nearby (which aren't bad, they just aren't nearly as nice as QT), you won't have QT.

[yermom]

are Love's and 7-11 connected somehow?

we have those vs. Tulsa's QT and Kum and Go (formerly Git n Go)

[Miko]

Thought you 'd get a kick outta this, Homey. I just got a service call from a QT in Tulsey.

The ginormous genny they're renting "won't shut off" . Just for you I suggested they quit complaining and take it to the nearest public school. :D

[Vaevictis]

Love's and QT have the corporate equivalent of a treaty. Love's won't open where there are QT's and vicey versy. I got that from a reasonably reliable source, although I've never seen it in print. The upshot is, if you have Love's nearby (which aren't bad, they just aren't nearly as nice as QT), you won't have QT.

Heh, and I'm pretty sure you never will -- if that's not outright collusion, it's awful close.

[IB4OU2]

When you people kick over the Twin Towers of Educational Reform Obstructionism (the NEA and its equally evile twin the AFT) and get solidly behind merit pay for teachers, whether everyone else gets a raise or not, and increase the annual instructional days beyond the level at which they have remained since 1907, I'll hush. In the meantime, you gotta take your licks.

Its a rotten system and it needs reform. Badly. You insiders are the only ones who won't admit it. In short, if you are not down with these things, you're part of the problem.

Homey? How many children do you have in or have raised through the TPS and what justification do you have in demeaning a professional that dedicates their career in teaching and helping others in a school system that has many of the same challenges as most other large city school systems?

Lawyers are alot like skeet......PULL!

[Okla-homey]

Homey? How many children do you have in or have raised through the TPS and what justification do you have in demeaning a professional that dedicates their career in teaching and helping others in a school system that has many of the same challenges as most other large city school systems?

Lawyers are alot like skeet......PULL!

I do not now, nor have I ever had children in the TPS system.

Nevertheless, I have as much right to be critical of them as any other person because I help pay for them. I concede the "challenges" faced by publics in urban areas. I refuse to concede those "challenges" justify a free pass to fail in their mission. No other enterprise in American life gets a free pass to fail based on the inherent difficulty of the task. What if the power companies told customers, "well, you know, this ice event has made it 'challenging' to restore power. We'll do the best we can, but it's not our fault if a percentage of you don't get your lights back on." There would be Congressional enquiries and likely rioting. Public schools should not be any different.

Instead, that "challanges" canard is too often used to justify dumbing-down of curricula and lowered standards. Unfortunately for the pupils in those schools, life didn't get the memo. Those kids will either know what they need to know or be impoverished for the rest of their lives.

[SoonerGirl06]

Have you ever had a child in the public school system?

Because if you had, I find it difficult to believe that you're criticizing the educators in the manner which you are.

How about pointing those fingers in a different direction - like Washington DC or the State Capitol?

[sooner_born_1960]

Heh, and I'm pretty sure you never will -- if that's not outright collusion, it's awful close. Collusion, or simply a business decision not to go head to head with a particular rival?

[Miko]

are we through talkin' bout ginormous gennies, cuz I think we still have a 1MW and some multi-breaker weather-proof load banks.:pop:

[Vaevictis]

Collusion, or simply a business decision not to go head to head with a particular rival?

Well, from Homey's description, there's an "understanding" that they won't compete. As I said, if that's not outright collusion, it's very close.

(It's one thing if they both independently say to themselves, "Man, I really can't compete with them if they're already established in an area." It's another if they have an understanding with each other not to enter into a market where one is already established.)

[Okla-homey]

How about pointing those fingers in a different direction - like Washington DC or the State Capitol?

Why? Honestly. Since the aforementioned NEA and AFT - which are actually teacher trade unions, generally control the national educational public policy debate. If "No Child Left Behind" is repealed or amended and eviscerated, it will be because these unions are working hard every day to lobby and otherwi$e influence Congress to do so.

Moreover, these unions exert a virtually overwhelming level of influence and power at the state level in the blue states. In the red states, they can and do generally tip the balance in elections for state legislatures and governorships.

How then could the state of public schools in this country be government's fault? Put another way, one should not ascribe to the puppet the acts of the puppeteer.

[Soonrboy]

Why? Honestly. Since the aforementioned NEA and AFT - which are actually teacher trade unions, generally control the national educational public policy debate. If "No Child Left Behind" is repealed or amended and eviscerated, it will be because these unions are working hard every day to lobby and otherwi$e influence Congress to do so.

Moreover, these unions exert a virtually overwhelming level of influence and power at the state level in the blue states. In the red states, they can and do generally tip the balance in elections for state legislatures and governorships.

How then could the state of public schools in this country be government's fault? Put another way, one should not ascribe to the puppet the acts of the puppeteer.

You are assuming that NCLB, if repealed, will be because the unions are pushing for it, instead of some of the law being bad and actually costing more money than needed. If it is changed or amended, it could be because it's not that great of a law or mandate.

I'm not saying that our education system is beyond criticizing, God no...however, there is alot of good going on in the schools that people like you refuse, for some reason, to believe is happening. Is it perfect? Nope. Is the running of the military perfect? Nope. Is the law sector perfect? Nope. Am I going to change your mind? Nope. But I'm done knowing that the people I work with day in and day out are making differences in the lives of children and thus in our future.

[Okla-homey]

But I'm done knowing that the people I work with day in and day out are making differences in the lives of children and thus in our future.

What I want for you my friend, more than anything else, is for you as a frontline manager and administrator to have the authority to pay those teachers who are responsible for helping kids exceed quantifiable objective expectations considerably more than the ones who are not getting it done.

It's really quite simple. When great teachers are rewarded commensurate with their contributions and talents, we'll have eliminated the inherent inequities of a system that now only rewards based on how many years a teacher has been showing up for work.

We will thus also encourage everyone in the field to do their very best. We will also attract bright young people to the field who are now discouraged from joing the ranks. They will be encouraged because they will know if they work hard, and find innovative ways to help their pupils progress, they can earn as much or more than a teacher just going through the motions who has been at it for 15 or 20 years.

Unfortunately, your OEA is foresquare opposed to such change.

[BajaOklahoma]

Homey, though your plan sounds good, it also has some holes in it. Not all children start at the same place at the beginning of the year - so the teachers spend a lot of time filling in those gaps so the foundation is there for future learning. Do they get credit for that?
What do you do about the kids who move several times during the year? It can take time to assess where the child is, but the teachers still have to teach. And just about the time the teachers figure out what needs to be done for the child - they move again. How are you going to give credit for them.
Are you going to penalize the teachers with the bright kids, who are working above grade level because their job is easier? What about the kids who work their hardest and just learn slower? Are you going to penalize the teachers for that?
What about the kids who are behavior problems and force the teachers to spend more time teaching correct behaviors than the ABCs? This directly impacts the ability of the class to learn and the teacher's options are limited.
What about the families who don't believe in the need for homework? This impacts the teaching/learning of the child, but is it fair to ding the teacher for it?

Want to fix the system? So do I. I suggest we start with mandatory parenting classes for every parent. Follow that with a minimum amount of volunteer time in the schools. Then everyone will have a better idea of what actually goes on in the schools and what needs to be done to fix it. I think there will be some eyeopening experiences.

[Okla-homey]

Homey, though your plan sounds good, it also has some holes in it. Not all children start at the same place at the beginning of the year - so the teachers spend a lot of time filling in those gaps so the foundation is there for future learning. Do they get credit for that?
What do you do about the kids who move several times during the year? It can take time to assess where the child is, but the teachers still have to teach. And just about the time the teachers figure out what needs to be done for the child - they move again. How are you going to give credit for them.
Are you going to penalize the teachers with the bright kids, who are working above grade level because their job is easier? What about the kids who work their hardest and just learn slower? Are you going to penalize the teachers for that?
What about the kids who are behavior problems and force the teachers to spend more time teaching correct behaviors than the ABCs? This directly impacts the ability of the class to learn and the teacher's options are limited.
What about the families who don't believe in the need for homework? This impacts the teaching/learning of the child, but is it fair to ding the teacher for it?

Want to fix the system? So do I. I suggest we start with mandatory parenting classes for every parent. Follow that with a minimum amount of volunteer time in the schools. Then everyone will have a better idea of what actually goes on in the schools and what needs to be done to fix it. I think there will be some eyeopening experiences.

Okay, see if there are holes in this. Call this "Homey's SuperExcellent Plan to Improve Public Schools (HSEPIPS)"

First, all kids in a given school would be given an age appropriate skills test sometime during the first three weeks of the new school year. They would be given another at the end of the school year. The percentage of improvement would be indexed to each teacher who was assigned that kid. That would be factor one.

Factor two would be an evaluation conducted on each teacher by his/her principal. The principal would use a methodology in which he/she would rate each teacher in that school against his/her peers. No speeding allowed because the teacher would have to be plotted on a graph with precisely the number of slots for teachers assigned to that school. Put another way, if I have 30 teachers in my school, each teacher would be plotted somewhere on that graph number 1 through 30.

Combine these two factors, but weight the improvement factor doubly. This way, you combine both objective and a subjective evaluation criteria.

Those teachers who end up in the top 50% overall for that particular school get 25% more pay than the bottom 50%. We'll call that the "25 for 50 Plan"

People in the overall bottom 10% at that particular school get two more years to break out of the bottom 10% or they're gone. We'll call that the "Up or Out Plan."

[BajaOklahoma]

Once again, you have major holes.

You are not allowing for "special needs" children by your own criteria. And "special needs" children cover a huge spectrum of abilities/limitations. And not all children with limitations will qualify for Special Ed because the gap between their IQ and what they are able to do isn't wide enough - they are working up to their potential, but will be "failures" by your criteria. And, therefore, you are penalizing the teacher for having a less than perfect child.

You have not allowed for parental support.
Want to know how many kids came to school late after attending the Stars game the night before? They missed math and some Language Arts - both critical classes. Attnedance impacts learning. I am so sick of kids being tardy. It sends a message to kids that school isn't important enough to get up 5 minutes earlier. The kids who are tardy in KN are the same ones tardy to work every day. If you aren't in class, you miss out. Is that the teachers fault? According to your criteria, it is.
Parent who overschedule their kids and choose to let homework be the thing that suffers. Homework is important, it is practicing what was taught in class and hopefully help the child remember it longer. If the homework isn't done, is that the teacher's fault? According to your criteria, it is.

Children who move frequently have gaps in learning. Things are taught twice or not at all. We are seeing more children moving after just a few weeks. These gaps aren't always apparent in the assessment tests, but can take up a lot of time to correct. According to your criteria, it doesn't matter and isn't important.

You want to talk health issues? Kids are surviving, due in part to the amazing work of doctors and nurses for prenatal care & neonatalogy. Many of these survivors have medical issues that impact their time in the classroom - tube feedings, breathing treatments, bowel & bladder training, occupational therapy, physical therapy, etc. Have I mentioned the vison, hearing, strength, coordination, memory, comprehension, language processing issues yet? They have to be dealt with too.
And for each of these children, there is an Individual education Plan, or IEP. This involves hours of asessments, meetings and paperwork. But wait, it doesn't matter according to your criteria. But the Feds and States have reams of laws that do make it matter - and woe to the district/school that doesn't have every "i" dotted and "t" crossed.

Are private schools better than public schools? They definitely have advantages that public schools don't have. They can choose who to accept, they have less Federal/State laws to be accountable for, they can remove students much easier, parents tend to be more involved. The kids who can't last in or afford private schools end up where? It's certainly easier to teach in private school.

Homey, believe me, this is just off the top of my head. I could go on and on, but you and others would consider it "whining." Every job has it good and bad points. Every job. Education is important and there are very few teachers or administrators who would disagree that it needs improving. What is ridiculous is that the ones in charge of changes (state legislatures and the public) have, for the most part, never worked in the schools. The few that have are accused of "protecting the status quo" or having "hidden agendas."

Think of it this way. Even though I am a nurse, if I went into your wife's unit and tried to reorganize it, I would gum it up. There are too many things that I would fail to consider. I would end up with the equivalent of a BCS solution - and no one would be happy.

I suggest that you volunteer for a minimum of two weeks in a local public school. Be in the front office some, but mostly be in the classroom. See what actually goes on, not what other tell you "they" heard. See what the real problems are and get ideas on what is needed. At that point, you will have an idea of the "real world" of teaching. Then we can talk about the problems and solutions.

[Okla-homey]

Once again, you have major holes.

You are not allowing for "special needs" children by your own criteria. And "special needs" children cover a huge spectrum of abilities/limitations. And not all children with limitations will qualify for Special Ed because the gap between their IQ and what they are able to do isn't wide enough - they are working up to their potential, but will be "failures" by your criteria. And, therefore, you are penalizing the teacher for having a less than perfect child.

You have not allowed for parental support.
Want to know how many kids came to school late after attending the Stars game the night before? They missed math and some Language Arts - both critical classes. Attnedance impacts learning. I am so sick of kids being tardy. It sends a message to kids that school isn't important enough to get up 5 minutes earlier. The kids who are tardy in KN are the same ones tardy to work every day. If you aren't in class, you miss out. Is that the teachers fault? According to your criteria, it is.
Parent who overschedule their kids and choose to let homework be the thing that suffers. Homework is important, it is practicing what was taught in class and hopefully help the child remember it longer. If the homework isn't done, is that the teacher's fault? According to your criteria, it is.

Children who move frequently have gaps in learning. Things are taught twice or not at all. We are seeing more children moving after just a few weeks. These gaps aren't always apparent in the assessment tests, but can take up a lot of time to correct. According to your criteria, it doesn't matter and isn't important.

You want to talk health issues? Kids are surviving, due in part to the amazing work of doctors and nurses for prenatal care & neonatalogy. Many of these survivors have medical issues that impact their time in the classroom - tube feedings, breathing treatments, bowel & bladder training, occupational therapy, physical therapy, etc. Have I mentioned the vison, hearing, strength, coordination, memory, comprehension, language processing issues yet? They have to be dealt with too.
And for each of these children, there is an Individual education Plan, or IEP. This involves hours of asessments, meetings and paperwork. But wait, it doesn't matter according to your criteria. But the Feds and States have reams of laws that do make it matter - and woe to the district/school that doesn't have every "i" dotted and "t" crossed.

Are private schools better than public schools? They definitely have advantages that public schools don't have. They can choose who to accept, they have less Federal/State laws to be accountable for, they can remove students much easier, parents tend to be more involved. The kids who can't last in or afford private schools end up where? It's certainly easier to teach in private school.

Homey, believe me, this is just off the top of my head. I could go on and on, but you and others would consider it "whining." Every job has it good and bad points. Every job. Education is important and there are very few teachers or administrators who would disagree that it needs improving. What is ridiculous is that the ones in charge of changes (state legislatures and the public) have, for the most part, never worked in the schools. The few that have are accused of "protecting the status quo" or having "hidden agendas."

Think of it this way. Even though I am a nurse, if I went into your wife's unit and tried to reorganize it, I would gum it up. There are too many things that I would fail to consider. I would end up with the equivalent of a BCS solution - and no one would be happy.

I suggest that you volunteer for a minimum of two weeks in a local public school. Be in the front office some, but mostly be in the classroom. See what actually goes on, not what other tell you "they" heard. See what the real problems are and get ideas on what is needed. At that point, you will have an idea of the "real world" of teaching. Then we can talk about the problems and solutions.

Seems reasonable, so, why don't we just exclude the performance of the special needs kids from the objective criteria? But wait! If we do that, some parent will sue because their kid is not being treated like all the rest.

Local example. Recently here in Tulsa, a group of special needs kid's parents brought an action vs. TPS because their kids teachers were beginning pack-up and travel to the busses 15 minutes earlier than the normal kids -- justified by TPS because it takes those kids longer. A judge decided those kids were owed that 15 minutes back for as long as the practice had been in effect.

What I'm hearing is that mainstreaming has significant negative side effects all round. Nevertheless, we have it, and I'm pretty sure it's here to stay.

The question then, is how can we work around the negatives and avoid getting sued? I personally believe the concept, while apparently compassionate and politically attractive, will go down in history as a failed proposition. Problem is, there can be no meaningful dialogue on the matter because opponents are labeled as inconsiderate jackholes.

I do know this, thru my work with Tulsa's homeless population, many of whom are under 30, a great percentage of them are what we would probably describe as "special needs." Because they have been mainstreamed, they lack any sort of institutional alternative to the street and suffer abject misery. We work hard to get them placed in assited living settings, but that's a tough nut b/c no one wants one of those in their neighborhood so they are few and waiting lists are long.

They drop out of school young because they are frustrated at their inability to grasp concepts and are justifiably sick of being taunted by their classmates. When they enter adolesence and hormones kick in, they often get in trouble for acting inapropriately. Some get tagged as sex offenders because they once groped someone.

Just maybe, it might have been better for many of these to have been provided an education pegged to their aptitude and ability, in a group or institutional setting where they could be insulated from the normal kids and could achieve their potential.

If they have parents who can afford to help them, they can end up being okay. If they don't, we encounter them because they live in the streets.

All that said, I still maintain, there ought to be a way to reward great teachers while incentivizing the rest to do better.

[yermom]

one thing that stood out to me is "age appropriate"

why does a smart kid need to sit through a whole year if they can learn the same stuff in a semester? maybe some kids need to do homework to remember stuff...

my problem with NCLB is that i think some kids do need to be left behind. you don't want to behave in school? you can't quite learn what you are supposed to? try again next year.

pushing children through regardless of their aptitude seems pretty silly. why should Student A with and IQ of 140 get the same diploma as Student B with an IQ of 70 when they don't really have the same requirements

as for pay, i don't think it matters that much whether it it's experience or merit based, it's probably just not enough to really attract talented people in very large numbers

either way, the system is going to need more money

[SicEmBaylor]

Well, this is going to get me negged up the posterior...again, but I'm going to say it anyway.

Homey is right on a large part of what he says. The NEA and AFT (although the AFT isn't quite as bad as the NEA is) are the real masters behind education policy in this country. Politicians (mostly Democratic ones) dance to their tune and nowhere is that more apparent than on the state level where, in many cases, they are or are one of the strongest lobbies in the state.

Now, do the NEA and AFT act in the interests of "the children." NO! That's one of the biggest myths perpetuated by their lobby. They act in the interest of the teachers and the administrators which is fine so long as we're correctly calling a spade -- a spade. There is no more hostile a group than the NEA/AFT when it comes to REAL reform in this country. They fight tooth and nail to avoid routine evaluations, performance standards for the kids, cuts in overhead and a re-appropriation of funds from administration to actual classroom work, the increase of pay for our good qualified teachers, etc.

One of the biggest problems comes with that last part. They support an increase of pay but NOT performance based pay. Another myth from their lobby is the idea that EVERY teacher is somehow a good teacher. Well, guess what, they're not. There are plenty of teachers out there who need to be shown the door. An increase in pay isn't going to magically attract more teachers -- it's going to increase the quantity not quality of the teaching ranks (which is also needed in some states).

Furthermore, this crap about keeping classroom sizes to a minimal seems to be another load that the public and parents are expected to swallow. The smallest classes that I had in school were the ones where it was easiest to goof off in because it felt like a more intimate and personal environment. And if the teacher sucks to begin with then that just changes the number of kids he/she is screwing over in their education.

I'd like to see very strict accountability standards (by the states not the Feds) imposed at every level from the school districts themselves, to the teachers, to the students. If a teacher consistently proves to be incapable of getting his/her students to meet those standards then that teacher should be fired. I'd rather have a huge classroom taught by a great teacher then a small classroom taught by an idiot. For those teachers who prove their value, I'd give them some of the largest salaries in the state.

Now...all of that is assuming that we don't eliminate public education entirely which is what I'd truly like to see but it's a pipe dream.

[bluedogok]

Well, from Homey's description, there's an "understanding" that they won't compete. As I said, if that's not outright collusion, it's very close.

(It's one thing if they both independently say to themselves, "Man, I really can't compete with them if they're already established in an area." It's another if they have an understanding with each other not to enter into a market where one is already established.)
Collusion isn't illegal in this type of case, a business always has the right to choose not to be in a market if they don't want to be. I think this was much more common in the past because there were many more regional chains and not as many national chains. There's always another option out here, it isn't like QT, Love's or the OKC 7-11 franchise owner are violating any type of law by choosing not to compete even if it was in a written agreement. The only ones that they would have to answer to is their shareholders and I think that all of the above are privately held companies.

There was always a rumor that TG&Y and Wal-Mart had a similar type of agreement in OKC. There were Wal-Mart stores in some of the small towns around OKC but never in OKC until the original TG&Y owners sold out to the Rapid/McCrory's chain, after that they came in full force.

[BajaOklahoma]

There are provisions to test of out classes and even grade levels.

Homework is not busy work. It is a simple method to check the student's understanding of the concepts and identify where the errors are occurring and to see if the teaching strategy is working.

NCLB originated here. You can leave children behind, in fact, there are requirements to be passed to the next grade. One issue is that children who are held back are always at greater risk for becoming a dropout at some point - even twn years later.

Behavior - I could bore you to death with examles and my opinions on the issues and solutions. IMO, this has to be corrected/addressed first. Less time spent on discipline = more time to teach.

Most districts offer several types of diplomas. Sp Ed classes here are noted as such on the report cards. It is possible to get a certificate of graduation instead of a diploma. But you can also take a few Sp Ed classes and still get a regular diploma. There are pre-college types of diplomas and those that have focused more on getting a job after school.

After working for years with teachers, I have to tell you that there are some wonderful, caring, creative people who choose to teach. The beating they take day after day from disrespectful kids and heliocopter parents, from the public who has no idea how hard a job it is and what it entails - no wonder so many of the best leave before they are worn down completely. The survivors are left. Idealists. The ones who want to change things for the better. And some that are close to retirement.

Homey, one of the benefits of having specials needs children in the school is the opportunity for "normal" kids to learn about these kids, not to fear them or to ridicule them. It does bring out the caring side in kids. Them unconsciously learn that differences are normal. But it does cost more for the technology, extra staffing and duplication of equipment. Call your local district and ask what the average expenditure/child is and then ask what they actually spend for each child in Sp Ed. I promise it is amazing. But how can you deny the child the right to develope to the best of their ability.
But at the same time, where do we draw the line? Our speech teachers and nurses spend a lot of time teaching some kids to chew and swallow food. A needed skill/acitivity for everyday living - but is the school the correct place for this? Potting training children who have no medical reason for the delay - is this appropriate for the school staff? It happens daily. We teach the kids to brush their teeth, wash their hands and tie their shoes - ummmm, where is the parenting? If it doesn't get done in school, it won't happen. Do you know how many kids come to school without breakfast? How can you learn if you are thinking about your tummy?

The need for improvement isn't as simple as it first seems - it's about respect, responsibility and results from a lot of sources. Money will help to a point.

<climbing off my soapbox for today>

[oklaclarinet]

Factor two would be an evaluation conducted on each teacher by his/her principal. The principal would use a methodology in which he/she would rate each teacher in that school against his/her peers. No speeding allowed because the teacher would have to be plotted on a graph with precisely the number of slots for teachers assigned to that school. Put another way, if I have 30 teachers in my school, each teacher would be plotted somewhere on that graph number 1 through 30.

My question is how objective would this methodology be? How do you legitimately compare a kindergarten teacher who teaches all subjects to a 6th grade teacher who specializes in just math or english. How do you compare a science teacher to a band director to a PE teacher? What do you do with someone who teaches both elementary and high school classes? Against which set of faculty would that person person be compared? Lastly, what qualifies the principal to effectively evalute all subject areas?

(So you understand from where I am coming, I'm thinking about the smaller districts that have just two schools, K-8 elementary and 9-12 high school. Of course, some of the smallest have just one school for all grades, which would make comparing the teachers even tougher.)

[Frozen Sooner]

The biggest flaw in the idea of running schools like a business is that a business can send raw materials back to the supplier if they're defective.

[King Crimson]

Well, this is going to get me negged up the posterior...again, but I'm going to say it anyway.

Homey is right on a large part of what he says. The NEA and AFT (although the AFT isn't quite as bad as the NEA is) are the real masters behind education policy in this country. Politicians (mostly Democratic ones) dance to their tune and nowhere is that more apparent than on the state level where, in many cases, they are or are one of the strongest lobbies in the state.

Now, do the NEA and AFT act in the interests of "the children." NO! That's one of the biggest myths perpetuated by their lobby. They act in the interest of the teachers and the administrators which is fine so long as we're correctly calling a spade -- a spade. There is no more hostile a group than the NEA/AFT when it comes to REAL reform in this country. They fight tooth and nail to avoid routine evaluations, performance standards for the kids, cuts in overhead and a re-appropriation of funds from administration to actual classroom work, the increase of pay for our good qualified teachers, etc.

One of the biggest problems comes with that last part. They support an increase of pay but NOT performance based pay. Another myth from their lobby is the idea that EVERY teacher is somehow a good teacher. Well, guess what, they're not. There are plenty of teachers out there who need to be shown the door. An increase in pay isn't going to magically attract more teachers -- it's going to increase the quantity not quality of the teaching ranks (which is also needed in some states).

Furthermore, this crap about keeping classroom sizes to a minimal seems to be another load that the public and parents are expected to swallow. The smallest classes that I had in school were the ones where it was easiest to goof off in because it felt like a more intimate and personal environment. And if the teacher sucks to begin with then that just changes the number of kids he/she is screwing over in their education.

I'd like to see very strict accountability standards (by the states not the Feds) imposed at every level from the school districts themselves, to the teachers, to the students. If a teacher consistently proves to be incapable of getting his/her students to meet those standards then that teacher should be fired. I'd rather have a huge classroom taught by a great teacher then a small classroom taught by an idiot. For those teachers who prove their value, I'd give them some of the largest salaries in the state.

Now...all of that is assuming that we don't eliminate public education entirely which is what I'd truly like to see but it's a pipe dream.


you are hilarious sometimes. have you EVER taught a class of students? day-in, day-out? sometimes you get a good class, sometimes you get a bunch of idiots.

though i suspect it fits with your small time aristocrat model of self to sneer a bit.

like i said before, every one is an expert on higher education because they skip class or expect to be entertained.

[tulsaoilerfan]

All the teaching in the world doesn't matter if you have an unmotivated kid with a parent or parents that don't give a damn; would that be the teacher's fault?

[yermom]

There are provisions to test of out classes and even grade levels.

Homework is not busy work. It is a simple method to check the student's understanding of the concepts and identify where the errors are occurring and to see if the teaching strategy is working.

NCLB originated here. You can leave children behind, in fact, there are requirements to be passed to the next grade. One issue is that children who are held back are always at greater risk for becoming a dropout at some point - even twn years later.

Behavior - I could bore you to death with examles and my opinions on the issues and solutions. IMO, this has to be corrected/addressed first. Less time spent on discipline = more time to teach.

Most districts offer several types of diplomas. Sp Ed classes here are noted as such on the report cards. It is possible to get a certificate of graduation instead of a diploma. But you can also take a few Sp Ed classes and still get a regular diploma. There are pre-college types of diplomas and those that have focused more on getting a job after school.

After working for years with teachers, I have to tell you that there are some wonderful, caring, creative people who choose to teach. The beating they take day after day from disrespectful kids and heliocopter parents, from the public who has no idea how hard a job it is and what it entails - no wonder so many of the best leave before they are worn down completely. The survivors are left. Idealists. The ones who want to change things for the better. And some that are close to retirement.

Homey, one of the benefits of having specials needs children in the school is the opportunity for "normal" kids to learn about these kids, not to fear them or to ridicule them. It does bring out the caring side in kids. Them unconsciously learn that differences are normal. But it does cost more for the technology, extra staffing and duplication of equipment. Call your local district and ask what the average expenditure/child is and then ask what they actually spend for each child in Sp Ed. I promise it is amazing. But how can you deny the child the right to develope to the best of their ability.
But at the same time, where do we draw the line? Our speech teachers and nurses spend a lot of time teaching some kids to chew and swallow food. A needed skill/acitivity for everyday living - but is the school the correct place for this? Potting training children who have no medical reason for the delay - is this appropriate for the school staff? It happens daily. We teach the kids to brush their teeth, wash their hands and tie their shoes - ummmm, where is the parenting? If it doesn't get done in school, it won't happen. Do you know how many kids come to school without breakfast? How can you learn if you are thinking about your tummy?

The need for improvement isn't as simple as it first seems - it's about respect, responsibility and results from a lot of sources. Money will help to a point.

<climbing off my soapbox for today>

if only you needed a license to breed...

[Okla-homey]

My question is how objective would this methodology be? How do you legitimately compare a kindergarten teacher who teaches all subjects to a 6th grade teacher who specializes in just math or english. How do you compare a science teacher to a band director to a PE teacher? What do you do with someone who teaches both elementary and high school classes? Against which set of faculty would that person person be compared? Lastly, what qualifies the principal to effectively evalute all subject areas?

(So you understand from where I am coming, I'm thinking about the smaller districts that have just two schools, K-8 elementary and 9-12 high school. Of course, some of the smallest have just one school for all grades, which would make comparing the teachers even tougher.)

Granted, its subjective. But I'd wager any principal worth a darn could rank most of his/her credentialed personnel fairly easily. I bet the hard part would be deciding numbers 1-3 on the high end, and the bottom three on the low end. Yet and still, businesses, corporations and even some gov't agencies rank their people all the time. We even had such a system in the AF when I was in and it worked pretty well. The system relies on frontline managers to make subjective inputs and everyone gets "racked and stacked." Important personnel decisions are made based on these rankings.

Of course, unions hate this sort of thing. They insist virtually all personnel decisions should be based on seniority as much as possible. That sort of thinking tends to incite mediocrity because people think, "hey, as long as I keep showing up for work, they gotta give me raises and if someone has to get axed, it will be the new kid who started five years ago. I'm safe, I've been here 15 years."

I AM NOT SAYING ALL TEACHERS ARE SLUGS!!! Many are fine, committed and hard working people. We just need to find a way to pay those folks a bunch more than their peers who aren't. We also need to find a way for the principal, who knows his/her staff the best, to be able to show the door to the consistent underperformers.

[SoonerGirl06]

Why? Honestly. Since the aforementioned NEA and AFT - which are actually teacher trade unions, generally control the national educational public policy debate. If "No Child Left Behind" is repealed or amended and eviscerated, it will be because these unions are working hard every day to lobby and otherwi$e influence Congress to do so.

Moreover, these unions exert a virtually overwhelming level of influence and power at the state level in the blue states. In the red states, they can and do generally tip the balance in elections for state legislatures and governorships.

How then could the state of public schools in this country be government's fault? Put another way, one should not ascribe to the puppet the acts of the puppeteer.

Homey while I respect your opinion, I disagree with it. And I'd still like to know if you've ever had a child(or children) in the public school system, because it seems to me you haven't a clue as to what actually goes on in the day to day, year to year lives of teachers and their students.



Teachers are no longer allowed to just "teach" children the cirriculum; they teach children based upon the tests that are mandated by congress to make sure "no child is left behind". This is not what the teachers want. They want to be given the resourses, the tools and the opportunity to teach in the manner that best suites the children and not based upon the guidelines that the government enforces upon them.

[Okla-homey]

All the teaching in the world doesn't matter if you have an unmotivated kid with a parent or parents that don't give a damn; would that be the teacher's fault?

I agree its not the teachers fault if the kid and/or his parents are not motivated. However, it is the teacher's fault if he/she doesn't work hard to climb inside that kid's head and figure out a way to motivate him. I'm just optimistic enough to beleive every kid can be reached at some point, unless they have been passed along for so long they themselves have become cynical.

There were many days I wasn't particulalry motivated. Yet, I was blessed with teachers who cared enough and knew how to get in my grill and make me understand it was either get with the flippin' program or learn how to roof houses or throw tires around at Ardmore's Uniroyal (now Michelin) plant.

Thus, bingo! First generation college graduate. Born to teenaged parents too. Didn't have crap growing up neither. And believe me, there are branches on my family tree that would incite more than a few guffaws around here.

[SoonerGirl06]

Okay, see if there are holes in this. Call this "Homey's SuperExcellent Plan to Improve Public Schools (HSEPIPS)"

First, all kids in a given school would be given an age appropriate skills test sometime during the first three weeks of the new school year. They would be given another at the end of the school year. The percentage of improvement would be indexed to each teacher who was assigned that kid. That would be factor one.

This is already being done. And they're being tested in between these beginning and end of school tests.


Factor two would be an evaluation conducted on each teacher by his/her principal. The principal would use a methodology in which he/she would rate each teacher in that school against his/her peers. No speeding allowed because the teacher would have to be plotted on a graph with precisely the number of slots for teachers assigned to that school. Put another way, if I have 30 teachers in my school, each teacher would be plotted somewhere on that graph number 1 through 30.

Combine these two factors, but weight the improvement factor doubly. This way, you combine both objective and a subjective evaluation criteria.

Those teachers who end up in the top 50% overall for that particular school get 25% more pay than the bottom 50%. We'll call that the "25 for 50 Plan"

People in the overall bottom 10% at that particular school get two more years to break out of the bottom 10% or they're gone. We'll call that the "Up or Out Plan."

This is flawed. Every teacher teaches a different curriculum based upon the age/grade of their students. Also, what about the Art teacher, the PE teacher or the music teacher? Do you rate their performances on how well a student draws, sings or how many push-ups they can do?

Basically you can't compare apples to oranges and expect to get a fair and balanced result.

[oklaclarinet]

Granted, its subjective. But I'd wager any principal worth a darn could rank most of his/her credentialed personnel fairly easily. I bet the hard part would be deciding numbers 1-3 on the high end, and the bottom three on the low end. Yet and still, businesses, corporations and even some gov't agencies rank their people all the time. We even had such a system in the AF when I was in and it worked pretty well. The system relies on frontline managers to make subjective inputs and everyone gets "racked and stacked." Important personnel decisions are made based on these rankings.

Of course, unions hate this sort of thing. They insist virtually all personnel decisions should be based on seniority as much as possible. That sort of thinking tends to incite mediocrity because people think, "hey, as long as I keep showing up for work, they gotta give me raises and if someone has to get axed, it will be the new kid who started five years ago. I'm safe, I've been here 15 years."

I AM NOT SAYING ALL TEACHERS ARE SLUGS!!! Many are fine, committed and hard working people. We just need to find a way to pay those folks a bunch more than their peers who aren't. We also need to find a way for the principal, who knows his/her staff the best, to be able to show the door to the consistent underperformers.

I'd wager that there are some subject areas in which the teachers would get shafted in the rankings. A far greater number of principals have more of a background in general education, coaching, or one of the four "core" subjects (reading/language, math, science, social studies) than in areas such as band, choir, art, drama, gifted and talented, journalism, computers, tech ed, and the like. Therefore, a principal is less likely to know if a band teacher is getting more out of the students than a math teacher. Also, the teachers of these subjects tend to have classrooms that are either far away from the rest of the classes or in a completely separate building. (Not that that's a bad thing. Would you really want the band room next door to a reading class?) However, due to this relative isolation, the principals rarely visit those classrooms except for the required evaluation times. Plus, there is a preconceived notion in some places that something like band isn't a real subject and therefore the teacher is not a real teacher. In those places whoever teaches that subject would be unjustly punished due to a personal bias and not any other criterial.

[Okla-homey]

My responses are imbedded below.


Homey while I respect your opinion, I disagree with it. And I'd still like to know if you've ever had a child(or children) in the public school system, because it seems to me you haven't a clue as to what actually goes on in the day to day, year to year lives of teachers and their students.

Okay. My kid went to parochial school in Wichita -- the public grade school was probably okay, but we wanted the structure and discipline of a parochial school when she was tiny. In Ohio, ditto. At Ft. Leavenworth, we let her go to the on-post middle school which was technically "public" because it was a KS USD school. In Fayetteville NC, back to parochial school -- this time because the public schools in that town are zoos. Ditto her first two years of high school in Tennessee. Ditto Alabama -- her last two years of HS, the four public high schools in that town are, well, scary bad. She now attends a public university.

I don't understand how whether or not she spent her primary and secondary career in public school matters in terms of my having an opinion. We did our homework and made the decision that made sense for our child. Just like all those politicians in Washington DC who opt out of public schools for their kids. Remember back during the Clinton years when Chelsea Clinton went to Sidwell Friends, and Gore kids went to the Episcopal school affiliated with the National Cathedral?

Teachers are no longer allowed to just "teach" children the cirriculum; they teach children based upon the tests that are mandated by congress to make sure "no child is left behind". This is not what the teachers want. Of course not, because it means they and their schools are held accountable. They want to be given the resourses, the tools and the opportunity to teach in the manner that best suites the children and not based upon the guidelines that the government enforces upon them. I hear you. But, if we don't have some objective standards, how do we know if they're doing a good job until it's too late? By "too late," I mean when the kids emerges at the other end and can't compete in the real world, which, like it or not, is FULL of objective standards.

[Vaevictis]

Collusion isn't illegal in this type of case, a business always has the right to choose not to be in a market if they don't want to be.

I think you are missing the subtle difference between choosing not to be in a market to avoid competition and having an agreement with a competitor not to enter into markets in order to avoid competition.

The first is always lawful. The second is problematic.

[tulsaoilerfan]

I agree its not the teachers fault if the kid and/or his parents are not motivated. However, it is the teacher's fault if he/she doesn't work hard to climb inside that kid's head and figure out a way to motivate him. I'm just optimistic enough to beleive every kid can be reached at some point, unless they have been passed along for so long they themselves have become cynical.

There were many days I wasn't particulalry motivated. Yet, I was blessed with teachers who cared enough and knew how to get in my grill and make me understand it was either get with the flippin' program or learn how to roof houses or throw tires around at Ardmore's Uniroyal (now Michelin) plant.

Thus, bingo! First generation college graduate. Born to teenaged parents too. Didn't have crap growing up neither. And believe me, there are branches on my family tree that would incite more than a few guffaws around here.
I'm sorry, i disagree on that; not every kid will be able to be motivated no matter how hard a teacher tries; i have seen it in several kids that are around my son's age and they have been that way ever since they have been in school but i guess that every teacher they have had are at fault.

[bluedogok]

I think you are missing the subtle difference between choosing not to be in a market to avoid competition and having an agreement with a competitor not to enter into markets in order to avoid competition.

The first is always lawful. The second is problematic.
I am not saying it is good, I am just saying that it is not unlawful as it is a conscious decision between two parties not to compete against each other. There is absolutely nothing in law to force companies to compete against each other if they don't want to. There are almost always other competitors in any given market, therefore they are not colluding to monopolize a market.

[/back on topic]
The problem with the testing based instruction that goes on now is you are doing nothing but training the majority of students into becoming test takers and not teaching them how to "learn". I think it is ruining education in this country, all testing does is create data for nice little spreadsheets for people to manipulate the numbers into whatever they want them to say. It doesn't teach the kids a damn thing. So in the end you end up with a majority of kids who have none of those life skills to compete in the real world, give'em a test and they may ace it but ask them anything an hour later and they couldn't tell you what the test was about.

[Chuck Bao]

I don't think the NEA is as bad as some of you guys are making it out to be. They obviously lean more to Democrats who favor more spending on social programs, including schools. No surprise there.

And no surprise on the viltrolic comments of our right-wing Republican friends posting here. The NEA and OEA indeed has a powerful lobby.

But, a totally arbitrary and subjective test of teachers' performance is not the answer, in my opinion.

The onus is on each kid's parents.

It's a sad state of affairs when parents don't have time to spend with their kids and then expect overburdened public school teachers to what?...motivate...produce miracles...walk on water.

I'm really distant from this education thing and I don't have kids. But, talking with my nieces, they seem to think that it is cool to get by without trying too hard. I tried to tell them that the business world is changing and there is either the top or the bottom. They have to compete in the labor market with India or China or they can aim to be CEO. I seriously don't think they get that, at all.

In Asia, parents have their kids in special schools during school breaks. It's a completely different mindset.

So, I think the failure of our education system is really an indictment against our society.

I have no solutions, but I'm enjoying healthly debate.

BTW, I pay local ad valorem taxes, Oklahoma state income taxes and federal income taxes.

Oh, any agreement not to compete is definitely collusion and illegal. You can bet, though, that there is no paper trail or evidence. And, that is probably the product of a good education.

[bluedogok]

Oh, any agreement not to compete is definitely collusion and illegal. You can bet, though, that there is no paper trail or evidence. And, that is probably the product of a good education.
Show me a statute that forces private companies into a new market to compete against someone else......

[Chuck Bao]

Agreement. I think I mentioned agreement in there somewhere. I am not casting aspersions in this case because I don't know anything about convenience stores and their expansion strategies.

Can you at least admit that if there is an agreement not to compete (let's say this is totally hypothetical), that it is wrong?

[Vaevictis]

Not all children start at the same place at the beginning of the year - so the teachers spend a lot of time filling in those gaps so the foundation is there for future learning. Do they get credit for that?

If you look at Homey's plan (the first part of which is fundamentally the same as mine), the improvement is indexed to the individual child. So yes, they do get credit for that, because filling in those gaps is going to result in a strong improvement over what the kid had at the start of the year.


What do you do about the kids who move several times during the year? It can take time to assess where the child is, but the teachers still have to teach. And just about the time the teachers figure out what needs to be done for the child - they move again. How are you going to give credit for them.

You could arrange reciprocal records exchanges between school districts. When the kid arrives at the new school, the baseline test could be communicated back to the previous school and used as the exit test.


Are you going to penalize the teachers with the bright kids, who are working above grade level because their job is easier? What about the kids who work their hardest and just learn slower? Are you going to penalize the teachers for that?

Two points:
1. I don't see this as a big problem because results are indexed to where the kid started.
2. Unless you're deliberately stacking these kids into a specific teacher's class, the results will average out over time and with respect to the rest of the faculty. Some years you'll get lucky and some years, you'll get unlucky. Welcome to life. If you are extremely concerned about this, you can introduce a student "tilt" factor that a third party can assign a given student (say, the principal), but that will introduce systemic bias.

Personally, I'd rather go with relying on the numbers and the natural tendency to average out in the absence of bias.


What about the kids who are behavior problems and force the teachers to spend more time teaching correct behaviors than the ABCs? This directly impacts the ability of the class to learn and the teacher's options are limited.

Three points on this:
1. Give the teachers additional tools to deal with this. It's far too hard to punish kids these days, and for those kids who are doing it compulsively, there have to be psychological facilities available.
2. Is it not a measure of the teacher's skill to be able to deal with this kind of thing? I don't see why it shouldn't be factored into their performance eval.
3. Law of averages again. Sometimes you'll get these kids, sometimes you won't. And unless you're doing something to channel them into specific teacher's classrooms, it's going to average out over time with respect to your peers.


What about the families who don't believe in the need for homework? This impacts the teaching/learning of the child, but is it fair to ding the teacher for it?

Law of averages. As long as you're not channelling these kids into/away from specific teachers, and you're using methods that rank teachers with respect to their peers, this is not a problem.

If you develop the system and model appropriately, the outliers will average out over time. Some years, you'll have a bad year, and some years you'll have a great year, all due to luck. Welcome to life.


Homework is not busy work. It is a simple method to check the student's understanding of the concepts and identify where the errors are occurring and to see if the teaching strategy is working.

An hour of homework each night is no big deal. It's when you have four classes that assign an hour and a half of homework each night that it's a problem. A kid shouldn't be in school for 6-7 hours a day and then go home and have to work for another 6 hours.


One issue is that children who are held back are always at greater risk for becoming a dropout at some point - even twn years later.

Personally, I just think it's better to hold the kid back and let them work their way back than socially advance them -- even if it increases the risk of dropping out. Obviously, you need to provide outlets to catch-up if they get behind, but IMO, it's better for them to take it on the goddamn chin and learn that there are consequences for non-performance.

Better to learn and address that at age 7 than age 19.


The beating they take day after day from disrespectful kids and heliocopter parents, from the public who has no idea how hard a job it is and what it entails - no wonder so many of the best leave before they are worn down completely.

This is addressable, and it's a crime that it hasn't been. Kids can be disciplined. So can parents. We need to provide tools and resources to schools so that when a parent gets all uppity and threatens a lawsuit, the school district can say, "Bring it."


But at the same time, where do we draw the line? Our speech teachers and nurses spend a lot of time teaching some kids to chew and swallow food. A needed skill/acitivity for everyday living - but is the school the correct place for this? Potting training children who have no medical reason for the delay - is this appropriate for the school staff? It happens daily. We teach the kids to brush their teeth, wash their hands and tie their shoes - ummmm, where is the parenting?

"Hello, Department of Family Services. We'd like to report a neglected child."


Do you know how many kids come to school without breakfast? How can you learn if you are thinking about your tummy?

So give 'em some breakfast.

(Not that I sympathize with this much; I stopped eating breakfast before I was in first grade.)

[Jerk]

Damn, there are some touchy people in this thread.

All Homey is asking for is accountability. WTF is wrong with that?

BTW- I'm glad I'm 14 years removed from public skool, because I would be in prison if I had to go to one today:

http://www.local6.com/news/14857286/detail.html

[Vaevictis]

I am not saying it is good, I am just saying that it is not unlawful as it is a conscious decision between two parties not to compete against each other. There is absolutely nothing in law to force companies to compete against each other if they don't want to. There are almost always other competitors in any given market, therefore they are not colluding to monopolize a market.

Once again, you are correct that companies may choose not to compete with each other. But it's not the choice that gets you in trouble, it's having an agreement not to compete with each other.

The first is a lawful business decision.

But the agreement not to compete with each other is probably (and if it's not, it's very, very close) a form of restraint of trade, which is unlawful under the Sherman Anti-trust Act.

(EDIT: FWIW, it may be unlikely to be enforceable due to the ability of OTHER competitors to enter the market, but if for some reason one were to successfully argue that there were barriers to entry into that particular segment of the market, they might find themselves in trouble.)

[bluedogok]

Why is it wrong for two companies to agree on such a practice if it does not create a monopoly for the other? They aren't restricting a third party (or more parties) from entering a particular market. Collusion happens all the time, why else does it seem that gas stations on every corner have the same price?

I can understand why companies in a common area would want to segment markets as to avoid direct competition especially while growing the companies which is when these "agreements" were probably put into effect (if they were at all). I never liked the fact that there were no QuikTrips in OKC as I prefer them over 7-11, Love's don't count since they really aren't in the local OKC market, just a few locations along the interstates. But I don't fault them for having an agreement whether it is a nudge, nudge, wink, wink type or written, although I doubt very seriously if there would be one in writing as you stated. This is not a Standard Oil type of situation where controlling an entire market either through a vertical or horizontal monopoly is created. There are always other types of competitors out there in most retail industry.

I am not saying that it is good for the consumer, just that I don't see it as a legal issue since there are too many variables to say that only two entities can control a market segment like retail. We probably have more of a concern now as to multi-nationals choking out competition from regional chains more than two regional chains against each other.

[Vaevictis]

But I don't fault them for having an agreement whether it is a nudge, nudge, wink, wink type or written, although I doubt very seriously if there would be one in writing as you stated.

Which was, in fact, my original point. Nothing good can come from putting something like this in writing; it's almost certainly unenforceable (restraint of trade often is), and can get you in deep **** with regulators for collusion.

[sooner_born_1960]

Which was, in fact, my original point. Nothing good can come from putting something like this in writing; it's almost certainly unenforceable (restraint of trade often is), and can get you in deep **** with regulators for collusion.
I'm sorry for my part in this.

[1stTimeCaller]

A very interesting thread.

[BajaOklahoma]

If you look at Homey's plan (the first part of which is fundamentally the same as mine), the improvement is indexed to the individual child. So yes, they do get credit for that, because filling in those gaps is going to result in a strong improvement over what the kid had at the start of the year.

The assessments don't cover every possibility. Gaps are still gaps and still have to be addressed or they wil show up later. But I guess it isn't important if it doesn't show up on the test, right?

You could arrange reciprocal records exchanges between school districts. When the kid arrives at the new school, the baseline test could be communicated back to the previous school and used as the exit test.

The assessments are developed by the districts, not standardized. And the curriculum can be taught in various orders - mainly so supplies/resources can be shared among schools. If our school teaches parts A & C in the Fall, but a kid comes from a school that taught B &D sections in the Fall, there are two sections that the kid missed out on - and it won't show unitl the end of the year. So tell me how the teacher then goes back and fills in the missing curriculum for that student, plus the missing sections for the other new students, all the while teaching the other kids in the class. Because only the results count, right?

Two points:
1. I don't see this as a big problem because results are indexed to where the kid started.
2. Unless you're deliberately stacking these kids into a specific teacher's class, the results will average out over time and with respect to the rest of the faculty. Some years you'll get lucky and some years, you'll get unlucky. Welcome to life. If you are extremely concerned about this, you can introduce a student "tilt" factor that a third party can assign a given student (say, the principal), but that will introduce systemic bias.

Personally, I'd rather go with relying on the numbers and the natural tendency to average out in the absence of bias.

While I can't speak for every single public school out there, most classrooms are grouped by ability. Our school does it from first grade on. And it continues all the way through graduation. Homey's Plan doesn't account for the extra effort/work to get the improvement in the slower kids and how a teacher of the brighter kids can coast and still have the kids do well on the post test. And this doesn't change from year-to-year because the PDH is geared for the level of students you teach.

Three points on this:
1. Give the teachers additional tools to deal with this. It's far too hard to punish kids these days, and for those kids who are doing it compulsively, there have to be psychological facilities available.
2. Is it not a measure of the teacher's skill to be able to deal with this kind of thing? I don't see why it shouldn't be factored into their performance eval.
3. Law of averages again. Sometimes you'll get these kids, sometimes you won't. And unless you're doing something to channel them into specific teacher's classrooms, it's going to average out over time with respect to your peers.

All it takes is one of these kids to destroy the learning atmosphere of the grade level. Because we are limited in what we can do/use to control these kids, they get away with murder. And some of the "good" kids start to think why should I behave because he gets this or that if he doesn't behave. We had to purchase (with tax money) 4 CD players for one student (for the classroom and each of the specials) - if he misbehaved, he was to be sent to listen to music. I'm serious, the doctor ordered it and the school is required to honor it by law. What a POS!

Law of averages. As long as you're not channelling these kids into/away from specific teachers, and you're using methods that rank teachers with respect to their peers, this is not a problem.

If you develop the system and model appropriately, the outliers will average out over time. Some years, you'll have a bad year, and some years you'll have a great year, all due to luck. Welcome to life.



An hour of homework each night is no big deal. It's when you have four classes that assign an hour and a half of homework each night that it's a problem. A kid shouldn't be in school for 6-7 hours a day and then go home and have to work for another 6 hours.

If the kids work in class like they are supposed to, there shouldn't be that much work on a regular basis. If they socialize instead, they have homework. And I've seen this in action.

Personally, I just think it's better to hold the kid back and let them work their way back than socially advance them -- even if it increases the risk of dropping out. Obviously, you need to provide outlets to catch-up if they get behind, but IMO, it's better for them to take it on the goddamn chin and learn that there are consequences for non-performance.

Better to learn and address that at age 7 than age 19.

Personally, I agree. I'm just giving you the results of numerous studies.


This is addressable, and it's a crime that it hasn't been. Kids can be disciplined. So can parents. We need to provide tools and resources to schools so that when a parent gets all uppity and threatens a lawsuit, the school district can say, "Bring it."

There goes the supplies for the classrooms to pay for the attorney. We are the district dealing with the stupid candy cane lawsuit. I can not begin to tell you how much time, money and aggravation that has caused.

"Hello, Department of Family Services. We'd like to report a neglected child."

So give 'em some breakfast.

You have obviously never called CPS. I know our rep on sight and by name. We offer breakfast at our school, if they come on time. And it is free for many. CPS won't come over a missed meal. They are too busy. They need more moeny, more staff and a pat on the back for dealing with the stuff they have to see.

(Not that I sympathize with this much; I stopped eating breakfast before I was in first grade.)


Remember, I am not a teacher, I am in the school and have learned a lot from watching. It is very sad. And getting worse.

[Okla-homey]

Here's what I believe is ultimately at stake on the education dealio. For about the first 200 years of US history, a physically healthy guy, even if he was an ignoramus, could get a job doing something to support a family. He wouldn't necessarily get rich, but he could support his family.

All that has changed with the end of first the "agricultural era," then the demise of the "industrial era" in this country. Now, increasingly our economy is service based. We don't make much here anymore. The farms are increasingly owned by big corporations.

Thus, in order to support yourself and a family, you need education BEYOND the basic skillz grampa needed to get a job making widgets in a factory, weaving textiles in a mill, making shoes, raising a corn crop, and what not. You get my drift I'm sure.

What scares me, is the ignoramii have been breeding for at least two generations now. They and their progeny are faced with a lack of opportunity because they didn't learn shat in school before they dropped out. They might have a chance if they got tracked into some vo-tech program early enough and picked up a trade.

There are fewer and fewer plants in which they can earn a living wage if all they can do is read at the 8th grade level and do a smidge of arithmetic. Further, because they work cheap, the illegal immigrants keep wages artificially suppressed so the relatively unskilled gigs will not pay a citizen who has to pay various taxes enough to keep food on the table.

Bottomline is if kids go to a skool where their minds are filled with mush instead of substantive coursework, and their loser parent(s) let the TV, VHS/DVD player and x-box raise them, they are doomed.

When John Edwards and others lament the fact half the population reaps the rewards and the other half stays poor, he neglects to mention the fact that is mostly because affluent people ensure their kids get educated, and the poor often can't because their kids are trapped in underperforming schools or the parent is just to far gone to be a positive influence in the kids education. Thus, the cycle repeats itself.

I also think (and perhaps I should duck after I say this) we should try mightily to get all kids fired-up about learning, but the ones who won't, we should just marginalize and stop wasting resources on them. If they are trying, we should never give up. But, if they have proven to be impenetrable by several teachers over a couple years, I say F 'em! We can't afford to waste finite resources on them. That's the part about NCLB I don't like. It is my understanding that under NCLB, giving up on a melonhead who is adamant about remaining a dumarse is not an option.

One thing's for sure to me. This problem is more of a threat to our way-of-life than militant Islam and global climate change combined.

[Vaevictis]

The assessments don't cover every possibility. Gaps are still gaps and still have to be addressed or they wil show up later. But I guess it isn't important if it doesn't show up on the test, right?

If the test isn't able to measure what a student was supposed to learn in the curriculum, then the test needs to be fixed.


The assessments are developed by the districts, not standardized. And the curriculum can be taught in various orders - mainly so supplies/resources can be shared among schools. If our school teaches parts A & C in the Fall, but a kid comes from a school that taught B &D sections in the Fall, there are two sections that the kid missed out on - and it won't show unitl the end of the year. So tell me how the teacher then goes back and fills in the missing curriculum for that student, plus the missing sections for the other new students, all the while teaching the other kids in the class. Because only the results count, right?

In a case like that:
1. If you know it's the case, you can immediately address it by getting the kid some tutoring.
2. If you don't, it should be revealed by year end exit tests and you can send the kid to summer school. And if the parent's aren't willing to have him/her in summer school, you hold him/her back in that subject.
3. And with respect to evaluating teachers, you can either invoke the law of averages, or introduce a bias to correct it.


While I can't speak for every single public school out there, most classrooms are grouped by ability. Our school does it from first grade on. And it continues all the way through graduation. Homey's Plan doesn't account for the extra effort/work to get the improvement in the slower kids and how a teacher of the brighter kids can coast and still have the kids do well on the post test. And this doesn't change from year-to-year because the PDH is geared for the level of students you teach.

Okay, so compare teacher performance across classes with like students -- both current like students and historical like students. It's not like this is hard.


If the kids work in class like they are supposed to, there shouldn't be that much work on a regular basis. If they socialize instead, they have homework. And I've seen this in action.

Maybe that's how it works where you are, but it ain't how it worked where I was. I did what I was supposed to do in class, and from 5th grade on, I generally had no less than four hours of homework each night, and for high school, no less than six.


There goes the supplies for the classrooms to pay for the attorney. We are the district dealing with the stupid candy cane lawsuit. I can not begin to tell you how much time, money and aggravation that has caused.

Hence why I said we need to give them the resources and tools. IE, increase funding for this sort of stuff. It doesn't have to be zero sum within the school budget -- if we cared enough, we could allocate more money to the school systems for this purpose.


You have obviously never called CPS. I know our rep on sight and by name. We offer breakfast at our school, if they come on time. And it is free for many. CPS won't come over a missed meal. They are too busy. They need more moeny, more staff and a pat on the back for dealing with the stuff they have to see.

So give 'em more money.

Yeah, I know that's easier said than done, but it's not like we couldn't do it if we really wanted to.

We just don't.

[yermom]

Here's what I believe is ultimately at stake on the education dealio. For about the first 200 years of US history, a physically healthy guy, even if he was an ignoramus, could get a job doing something to support a family. He wouldn't necessarily get rich, but he could support his family.

All that has changed with the end of first the "agricultural era," then the demise of the "industrial era" in this country. Now, increasingly our economy is service based. We don't make much here anymore. The farms are increasingly owned by big corporations.

Thus, in order to support yourself and a family, you need education BEYOND the basic skillz grampa needed to get a job making widgets in a factory, weaving textiles in a mill, making shoes, raising a corn crop, and what not. You get my drift I'm sure.

What scares me, is the ignoramii have been breeding for at least two generations now. They and their progeny are faced with a lack of opportunity because they didn't learn shat in school before they dropped out. They might have a chance if they got tracked into some vo-tech program early enough and picked up a trade.

There are fewer and fewer plants in which they can earn a living wage if all they can do is read at the 8th grade level and do a smidge of arithmetic. Further, because they work cheap, the illegal immigrants keep wages artificially suppressed so the relatively unskilled gigs will not pay a citizen who has to pay various taxes enough to keep food on the table.

Bottomline is if kids go to a skool where their minds are filled with mush instead of substantive coursework, and their loser parent(s) let the TV, VHS/DVD player and x-box raise them, they are doomed.

When John Edwards and others lament the fact half the population reaps the rewards and the other half stays poor, he neglects to mention the fact that is mostly because affluent people ensure their kids get educated, and the poor often can't because their kids are trapped in underperforming schools or the parent is just to far gone to be a positive influence in the kids education. Thus, the cycle repeats itself.

I also think (and perhaps I should duck after I say this) we should try mightily to get all kids fired-up about learning, but the ones who won't, we should just marginalize and stop wasting resources on them. If they are trying, we should never give up. But, if they have proven to be impenetrable by several teachers over a couple years, I say F 'em! We can't afford to waste finite resources on them. That's the part about NCLB I don't like. It is my understanding that under NCLB, giving up on a melonhead who is adamant about remaining a dumarse is not an option.

One thing's for sure to me. This problem is more of a threat to our way-of-life than militant Islam and global climate change combined.

either way there aren't enough non-service jobs to go around

[Mjcpr]

Hey Homey, you'll probably be glad to know the Board of Education will ask the legislature to extend the school year by 5 days and $90 million more to pay for it.

:pop:

[1stTimeCaller]

why does it cost the state $18MM per day for schools to be open? I thought local property taxes paid for local schools???

[Mjcpr]

why does it cost the state $18MM per day for schools to be open? I thought local property taxes paid for local schools???

It doesn't, it costs $18 million per day.

[Mjcpr]

Oh, you editing bastard.

[SicEmBaylor]

I think we should stop calling them schools and use a more apt term, "Government indoctrination compounds."

[1stTimeCaller]

what????

;)

Seriously, is 17 million of that 18 million overhead?

[Okla-homey]

Hey Homey, you'll probably be glad to know the Board of Education will ask the legislature to extend the school year by 5 days and $90 million more to pay for it.

:pop:

That's a great a way to insure OUr state continues to have among the shortest school years in the nation. Just let the educrats price any increase right the heck beyond rationality. That way the legislature will recoil in horror. Meanwhile, the children suffer.

Here's a thought. No doubt the largest portion of the delta is payroll. Just tell the employees, look, your contract used to be based on 170 days. Next year it's based on 175 with no corresponding raise. Time to pony up if you're serious about your mission. Take it or leave it. Besides, you people are always carping you work 18 hour days 365 days a year anyway

[1stTimeCaller]

the State dowsn't pay the teacher's salaries.

Does Sandy Garrett have a breakdown of where this $90MM is going to be spent?

[Frozen Sooner]

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but the Board of Education isn't made up of NEA members, is it?

[Hamhock]

did i tell ya'll that I'm doin' my kids' teacher?

[NormanPride]

did i tell ya'll that I'm doin' my kids' teacher?

ಠ_ಠ


Oh, wait... :D

[yermom]

you are still paying for this crap though ;)

[Hamhock]

you are still paying for this crap though ;)


don't get me started.

[1stTimeCaller]

Froze, here are the members:

Oklahoma State Board of Education | more |
Sandy Garrett, chair
Larry E. Adair, Stilwell
Sue Arnn, Ardmore
Debbie Blue, Shawnee
Tim Gilpin, Tulsa
Gayle Miles-Scott, Oklahoma City
Michael Mitchel, Woodward

Sue Arnn, Ardmore
Represents Congressional District 4. Ms. Arnn graduated from Alamo Heights High School, in San Antonio, Texas. She received a B.S. from Southwest Texas State, San Marcos, Texas, and attended summer school in 1951 at the University of Fribourg, Fribourg, Switzerland. From 1955 to 1957, Ms. Arnn taught 4th grade in Barrow, Alaska, and from 1957 to 1963 she was financial secretary for the Episcopal Mission on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota. In 1968, she moved to Ardmore, Oklahoma, and has served on many boards of nonprofit organizations. This includes serving on the Ardmore Public Schools Board of Education and Oklahoma State School Boards Association Board of Directors. Ms. Arnn and her husband have one son, Ralph, and three granddaughters.
Contact
207 Campbell, Ardmore, OK 73401-1943
Phone: (580) 223-3272, Fax (580) 223-7856
http://www.sde.state.ok.us/board/board_pics/arnn.jpg

Larry E. Adair, Stilwell
Larry was born in Prairie Grove , Arkansas and grew up in Stilwell , Oklahoma . He graduated Stilwell High School in 1964, and earned a B.A. Degree and Masters of Education from Northeastern State University in Tahlequah; and Post Grad at the University of Arkansas-Fayetteville. The Vietnam veteran served in the United States Army from 1969-1971. Later in 1971, he began teaching English and speech at Stilwell High School and later became principal. He was also principal and superintendent in the Watts School District for 11 years. In 1982, Larry followed his political aspirations and won the District 86 seat for State Representative. During his tenure as a public servant he was dedicated to the needs of education, public safety, rural Oklahoma and military veterans. Larry served as chairman for the Transportation, Education, Veterans and Military Affairs Committees; Vice-Chairman for the Education Appropriations & Budget Subcommittee; Ex-Officio member of all House Committees, and held memberships for State-Tribal Relations, General Conference Committee on Appropriations, and the Rural Economic Development Task Force. He is a former Assistant Majority Floor Leader, Speaker Pro Tempore and Speaker of the House. In November 2004, after serving 22 years, Larry stepped down from public office due to term limits. Larry is currently the President of Arvest Bank in Stilwell. He is active in the Stilwell Chamber of Commerce, Kiwanis, Adair County Cattlemen's Association, VFW, American Legion, and community affairs. Larry and his college sweetheart, Jan (Janice) Eversoll, have been married 35 years and have two children, Anesa and Carter.

Debbie Blue, Shawnee
Represents Congressional District 5. Dr. Blue is a graduate of Shawnee High School. She received her B.S. in mathematics with a minor in secondary education from Oklahoma Baptist University, her M.S. in mathematics from The University of Tulsa and her Ed.D. in Curriculum and Instruction from Oklahoma State University. She has taught in the Sapulpa, Jenks and Shawnee public school systems. After teaching mathematics at Oklahoma Baptist University for seventeen years, Dr. Blue became Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences and is currently the Senior Vice President for Academic Affairs at OBU. She also serves on the Oklahoma State Board of Career and Technology Education and is the Vice Chair of the Commission for Teacher Preparation where she serves as the chair of the Assessment Committee.
Contact
Oklahoma Baptist University
500 West University, OBU Box 61307, Shawnee, OK 74804
Office: (405) 878-2022, Fax: (405) 878-2046
E-mail: [email protected]
http://www.sde.state.ok.us/board/board_pics/blue.jpg

Gayle Miles-Scott, Oklahoma City
Member at Large. Ms. Miles-Scott received a B. A., with honors, from Spelman College, Atlanta, Georgia, and an MBA, with honors, from Atlanta University, Atlanta, Georgia. Ms. Miles-Scott did post graduate work at Oklahoma City University. Since 1986, Ms. Miles-Scott has been a Tenured Assistant Professor of Accounting at the University of Central Oklahoma, teaching governmental/non-profit accounting. In 2002 she was named Outstanding Professor at the University of Central Oklahoma. Ms. Miles-Scott has been a certified public accountant since 1984, and has practiced in both private and public accounting. She has served on several public boards, including the Oklahoma Securities Commission, Task Force to Study the Oklahoma Teachers' Retirement System, the Murrah Building Task Force Finance Budget Committee, and as a transition team member for Governor Brad Henry.
Contact
3409 E. Cardinal Dr., Oklahoma City, OK 73121
Office: (405) 974-5264, Fax: (405) 427-1142
E-mail: [email protected]
http://www.sde.state.ok.us/board/board_pics/miles-scott.jpg

Tim Gilpin, Tulsa
Tim was born and raised in Tulsa, Oklahoma. He graduated Cascia Hall High School in 1979, and earned a B.A. degree from George Washington University , Washington , D.C. in 1983. He attended law school at the University of Tulsa College of Law obtaining a J.D. degree in 1986. Tim worked his way through college and law school. After law school and working in several Tulsa law firms, he was honored when asked to serve Oklahoma as an Assistant Attorney General under Robert Henry. Afterwards, he returned to Tulsa to private practice. Tim has two children who attend Tulsa Public Schools. Tim has a solo law practice and is active in community affairs. Tim is also a member of the Downtown Tulsa Rotary Club, past member of the Southeast Tulsa Jaycees and, among his activities, has served on the Board of The Parent Child Center of Tulsa, The Public Policy Committee of the Mental Health Association in Tulsa , the Mayor's Commission on Concerns of the Disabled and United Way Investment Panel.
Contact
1616 S. Peoria, Unit #4, Tulsa, OK 74120
Office: (918) 583-8900, Fax: (918) 582-7830
E-mail: [email protected]
http://www.sde.state.ok.us/board/board_pics/tgilpin.jpg

Michael Mitchel, Woodward
Mr. Mitchel graduated from Perryton High School , Perryton , Texas . He received a B.S. degree from Northwestern Oklahoma State University and a Juris Doctorate degree from the University of Oklahoma School of Law. Mr. Mitchel has practiced law in Northwestern Oklahoma for thirty-three years and is a Senior Partner in the law firm of Mitchel, Gaston, Riffel & Riffel, P.L.L.C. Michael is a member of the Oklahoma Bar Association (OBA), is a former Vice-President and serves on the Board of Governors. He was the OBA 1981 Outstanding Young Lawyer Award recipient. He is a member of the Woodward County Bar Association, Oklahoma Trial Lawyers Association, Association of Trial Lawyers of America, Woodward Chamber of Commerce and the Woodward Industrial Foundation. Michael is one of the founding board of directors of the 101 Classic Bowl Foundation, and owns and operates FM 92 radio station in Woodward which continues to spotlight the high school academic and athletic events in the area. He and his wife, Connie, have three (3) children: Mikela, a teacher; Jay, an attorney; and Jared, a student at Oklahoma Christian University.
Contact
P. O. Box 887, Woodward, OK 73801
Office: (580) 254-3447, Fax : (580) 254-5314
Email: [email protected]

[1stTimeCaller]

WHOA!! That's a big *****!!!

[Mjcpr]

I would like to see more of Debbie Blue.

[Mongo]

Not only is that the largest picture in SF history, the moron poster posted it twice

[JohnnyMack]

Hey Scott,

DING FRIES ARE DONE!!!!

Good jorb.

Moran.

[BajaOklahoma]

Here's a thought. No doubt the largest portion of the delta is payroll. Just tell the employees, look, your contract used to be based on 170 days. Next year it's based on 175 with no corresponding raise. Time to pony up if you're serious about your mission. Take it or leave it. Besides, you people are always carping you work 18 hour days 365 days a year anyway

I don't understand what your beef is with teachers? Did one of them hit you with a ruler?

A lost cause.

[yermom]

he's got a point though. they are salaried. i don't get to gripe when i work extra days

i sure do get to pay into their crappy retirement though

[yermom]

and i bet i hate teachers more than Homey does ;)

[royalfan5]

The important thing to remember is that year-round school will cost a lot more even if you don't pay the teachers more because of facilities, transportation, and hourly staff. People will bitch a lot about that.

[Frozen Sooner]

he's got a point though. they are salaried. i don't get to gripe when i work extra days

i sure do get to pay into their crappy retirement though


There's a difference between a contracted employee and a salaried employee.

Teachers are paid for working a set number of days in the classroom and a set number of days in service. Those days are set by contract-and you better believe that any substantial changes to those contracted days is going to have to be collectively bargained for.

[olevetonahill]

I like wimmens Teachers . They taste like chicken and smell like fish

[Vaevictis]

i don't get to gripe when i work extra days

So, you'd have no problem if your boss were to say to you, "We're reducing your paid vacation this year by 5 days."

[sooneron]

WTF?!?!?!? 1TC?

[yermom]

So, you'd have no problem if your boss were to say to you, "We're reducing your paid vacation this year by 5 days."

it's happened before.

of course when you get like 30 days a year off, it's not that big of a deal (i'm talking about me, not teachers)

[Vaevictis]

Heh, you're a lot more easygoing than I am if that doesn't bug you.

That's basically a 2% pay cut.

[yermom]

well, i kinda got that at the same time

[BajaOklahoma]

Would you also like to get into the discussion on why teachers are the only group that have to choose between accepting teacher retirement benefits or social security - even though they can have met the qualifications for both?
This is a recent change and impacts retirement plans for many people. No other retirement group is similarly affected.

[Okla-homey]

I don't understand what your beef is with teachers? Did one of them hit you with a ruler?

A lost cause.

To be clear, I do not hate teachers. Many of them are fine and committed people. I do, however, have a great deal of disdain for "educrats," whom I define as the assorted teachers union leaders, non-classroom support personnel (i.e. straphangers,) other assorted deadweight, the administrative apparatchiks and various degreed flunkies in the education system who would not soil themselves by teaching. Also, the politicians who are willing to blow them in exchange for their votes.

In short, the worms in the education apple. Like that worm, IMHO, those types take much more than they give back and make the whole apple pretty indesireable and way more expensive than it oughtta be. These types are also the creators of the myth that throwing more money at public schools is reqiured to fix them.

[Sooner_Bob]

My daughter pays for ALOT of supplies out of her measely teachers salary and if she doesn't have enough guess who she calls.


Oh tell me about it . . . being married to a teacher I have first hand knowledge myself. :D

[Sooner_Bob]

I think we should stop calling them schools and use a more apt term, "Government indoctrination compounds."


Ok Neil Boortz . . .

[Sooner_Bob]

http://media.komotv.com/images/070828_Miss_SC.jpg


I honestly believe that the biggest problem with Oklahoma schools is that there are too freaking many school districts. With each district (most anyway) have a high paid superintendent. Both the very small schools and very large schools have a freaking superintendent. Now granted I realize that the large schools have additional support staff to help manage things, but you can't expect me to believe that several small schools within 15 miles of each other can't consolidate and eliminate one or two of those highly paid positions. Especially if the incumbent is retirement eligible.

I'm sure Sandy Garrett winning a 5th consecutive term as state superintendent has nothing to do with the current state of Oklahoma schools. :rolleyes:

I'd bet it all started to go downhill the day teachers were told they couldn't spank kids . . . :D

[Hamhock]

http://media.komotv.com/images/070828_Miss_SC.jpg


I honestly believe that the biggest problem with Oklahoma schools is that there are too freaking many school districts. With each district (most anyway) have a high paid superintendent. Both the very small schools and very large schools have a freaking superintendent. Now granted I realize that the large schools have additional support staff to help manage things, but you can't expect me to believe that several small schools within 15 miles of each other can't consolidate and eliminate one or two of those highly paid positions. Especially if they incumbent is retirement eligible.

I'm sure Sandy Garrett winning a 5th consecutive term as state superintendent has nothing to do with the current state of Oklahoma schools. :rolleyes:

I'd bet it all started to go downhill the day teachers were told they couldn't spank kids . . . :D


while i don't understand the relevance, posting a hot chick picture is always a winner.

great post.

[Mjcpr]

Would you also like to get into the discussion on why teachers are the only group that have to choose between accepting teacher retirement benefits or social security - even though they can have met the qualifications for both?
This is a recent change and impacts retirement plans for many people. No other retirement group is similarly affected.

As a retired federal employee, my mom doesn't get SS benefits either.

[Sooner_Bob]

while i don't understand the relevance, posting a hot chick picture is always a winner.

great post.


Ok, so it was "I personally believe . . . " :D


Link (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/360325/lauren_caitlin_upton_miss_teen_south.html?cs=63989 9&)