Oklahoman: Here's Why We're Rooting For Downtown Tulsa

[BigRedJed]

Linky (http://newsok.com/article/3176815/1196771897)

By Steve Lackmeyer
Main Street

Visit downtown Tulsa these days and you'll see for yourself a virtual construction zone. Streets are ripped up, sidewalks torn apart, and detour signs are just the outward signs of a city in transition.

Residents of the state's second largest city bristle at comparisons to the transformation of downtown Oklahoma City. It's odd to be the outsider in Tulsa — visiting with ordinary folks, one gets the impression the two cities are in some sort of fierce rivalry where only one can emerge victorious.

Yet while traveling a few weeks back with a handful of some of Oklahoma City's most powerful corporate leaders, I heard nothing but concern for Tulsa.

The October flight coincided with two much-anticipated votes in both cities — a school bond election for Oklahoma City Public Schools and a sales tax to further development along Tulsa's Arkansas River corridor.
This may surprise Tulsans, but the Oklahoma City delegation was rooting for both issues to pass.

Their anxiety over the school bond election was easy to understand. After witnessing Oklahoma City's resurgence the past decade, they believe one of the biggest hurdles remaining is the city's schools.

But they were just as eager to see a win up in Tulsa. They cared because despite perceptions in their sister city, the state needs both cities to be economic powerhouses if it's to overcome historical disadvantages. And, yes, they were disappointed to hear the Tulsa tax had been voted down — even as the Oklahoma City school bond issue was winning by an almost historic margin of victory.

Tulsa isn't down for the count. The city's new arena is truly a masterpiece that Oklahoma City residents can only admire.

And the pain being encountered by businesses, downtown workers and visitors isn't without precedent. It was a decade ago that similar logistical nightmares were to be found throughout downtown Oklahoma City.

But the big success stories seem to be eluding downtown Tulsa; a development deal for a Wal-Mart fell through.

And there appears to be no sign that the once-ambitious plans heralded by Henry Kaufman and Maurice Kanbar for one-third of downtown Tulsa they bought two years ago will be fulfilled now that the two men have ended up in a court fight in San Francisco.

Some may also worry about recent reports that the operator of Tulsa's historic Brady Theater has discontinued its promotions and that, for now, the landmark no longer will be hosting performances as it has for decades. The Brady is more than just a downtown Tulsa institution. It is also the anchor for the city's fledgling entertainment district.

It's interesting that Oklahoma City, with a downtown area that has so little going for it, has come so far in the past decade. Consider all that downtown Tulsa has — not just the Brady, but also Cain's Ballroom; the incredible Art Deco downtown skyline; and a river that never needed to be mowed three times a year.

What's evident in Tulsa is that there is no unified vision for its downtown. I'm not sure that the impulse to look at Oklahoma City as a foe needing to be vanquished will revitalize Tulsa's inner-core.

But with time, and with vision and leadership, downtown Tulsa will thrive again. And I know many Oklahoma City folks who will be cheering for that resurgence with every bit of enthusiasm as they have for their own hometown.

[BigRedJed]

This OKC vs. Tulsa thing is just plain dumb. We all need to get over it, especially T-town, who seems to me to be much more caught up in it than OKC does. Frankly, it's kindof aggy-like. We BOTH need to thrive for the state to have a chance economically.

Good luck Tulsa, I'm pulling for you. I wish you would pull for us, too.

[M]

I <3 Tulsa

[Mjcpr]

This OKC vs. Tulsa thing is just plain dumb. We all need to get over it, especially T-town

Hey, suck it! You're worse!!

;)

I agree. I don't get that. I haven't really witnessed among the people that I know but apparently it does exist in some circles.

[frankensooner]

If they would just quit playing that darn "hill and trees" card, I might be a bit more sympathetic. Nah, GO TULSA! :D

[NormanPride]

I blame bri. :D

The problem with downtown Tulsa is that Brookside and Cherry street are right next to it. There's no need for a big night life or restaurant scene.

[Boomer.....]

If they would just quit playing that darn "hill and trees" card, I might be a bit more sympathetic. Nah, GO TULSA! :D
Well, at least we got that going for us.

[Lott's Bandana]

Downtown Tulsa's Art Deco is unparalleled. Brookside and Cherry Street draws some of the eastside's attention and I believe a revitalized downtown could be stellar in the future. There's plenty of "bedroom" around Tulsa to support a bigger Arts District, Blue Dome District and retail around the "low numbers".

The savvy investor could reap a windfall.

[silverwheels]

Frankly, it's kindof aggy-like.

I <3 Tulsa

Hmmm....

[BigRedJed]

Hey, I'm great with all of the I <3 Tulsa proclamations anybody can muster up. If you're not proud of your own hometown and don't want to make it better, why live there? Heck, I <3 Tulsa, too.

I've just grown tired of the "OKC > Tulsa" and "I hate OKC" smack. It's useless.

[Boomer.....]

Downtown Tulsa is on its way up. It all starts with the new arena and street improvements which are underway and will be done by next Fall. A new "grand" hotel will go in next to the arena once the City moves all of their staff out. New businesses should pop up in east downtown, joining the new Home Depot. Things don't just happen overnight, but it's good to see things progressing.

BTW, a few weeks ago I read where the City has hired a consultant out of Chicago to help design a plan for revamping downtown.

[Mjcpr]

A new "grand" hotel will go in next to the arena once the City moves all of their staff out.

We hope. :O

[silverwheels]

Hey, I'm great with all of the I <3 Tulsa proclamations anybody can muster up. If you're not proud of your own hometown and don't want to make it better, why live there? Heck, I <3 Tulsa, too.

I've just grown tired of the "OKC > Tulsa" and "I hate OKC" smack. It's useless.

I agree with you, but I thought the timing of M's post was funny, considering what you said and she's an Aggy. :D

[BigRedJed]

Good point. Dang aggys.

[Condescending Sooner]

BTW, a few weeks ago I read where the City has hired a consultant out of Chicago to help design a plan for revamping downtown.


Just make sure he doesn't do what IM Pei did to OKC. Downtown OKC has never recovered from his "vision".

[JohnnyMack]

I just kinda roll my eyes at Tulsa and its "vision". We've had enough chances. If it happens it happens, if not we have no one to blame but ourselves.

[M]

:mad:

I <3 Tulsa and OKC. So there.

[BigRedJed]

I just kinda roll my eyes at Tulsa and its "vision". We've had enough chances. If it happens it happens, if not we have no one to blame but ourselves.
Well, I'd blame Jenks, Owasso and Broken Arrow. But that's just me.

[BigRedJed]

:mad:

I <3 Tulsa and OKC. So there.
Of course, you're also a devout aggie posting in a friendly manner on a Sooner board. I think you're a little outside the norm. :D

[Jimminy Crimson]

Of course, you're also a devout aggie posting in a friendly manner on a Sooner board. I think you're a little outside the norm. :D

That'd be a little too kinky if she was inside the norm. :norm:

[Boomer.....]

Well, I'd blame Jenks, Owasso and Broken Arrow. But that's just me.
Why, just because they don't sit around and wait for things to fix or develop themselves? At least they are improving their cities.

[Boomer.....]

We hope. :O
A hotel across from the arena is an absolute must for it to thrive. I sure hope one comes.

[Jimminy Crimson]

Why, just because they don't sit around and wait for things to fix or develop themselves? At least they are improving their cities.

...at the expense of downtown.

OKC had the same problem. It's starting to change, though.

[OklahomaTuba]

Of course, there are at least two rather large hotels in downtown Tulsa.

Unfortunatly, the idiots in charge of Tulsa thought the Arena would fit better surrounded by exciting venues such as the federal court house, the post office, the library, and other government property that will costs millions to relocate.

Nah, lets not build the Arena in the part of town where all the commerical development is actually going on, where we have a hotel, and where there is plenty of empty land to expand. That would be too hard I guess.

Tulsa's Downtown is dead for a reason and its going to be harder for Tulsa to recover it than OKC's.

I think Tulsa should forget downtown, and instead look at developing the greater areas around it such as Utica Square, Brookside, Greenwood, Brady District and the downtown River development that was promised in 2025.

Re-develop the areas around downtown first, then see what happens. I think that is the only way to bring any momemtum back to the area.

Also look at some sort of lite rail, connecting the burbs, airport, 71st, OKC, Norman, stoolwater etc to a central station downtown.

but first and foremost, the streets have to be fixed, the crime has to be lowered, and the schools have to improve, or else the city will keep decaying into one big donught.

[JohnnyMack]

Of course, there are at least two rather large hotels in downtown Tulsa.

Unfortunatly, the idiots in charge of Tulsa thought the Arena would fit better surrounded by exciting venues such as the federal court house, the post office, the library, and other government property that will costs millions to relocate.



Don't forget the Bus Station.

[OklahomaTuba]

At least we have the nicest city hall in the state!!

[frankensooner]

Light rail is a waste of resourses, if you don't believe me ask Ernest Istook. ;)

[Boomer.....]

The only light rail possible (feasible) is along existing railroad tracks, mainly along the BA Expressway connecting downtown and BA.

[OklahomaTuba]

Well, if its done wrong it sure is.

I have no faith that anyone in a desicion making role in Tulsa could do planning correctly. That river debacle and the arena location are just a few of many examples.

[OklahomaTuba]

The only light rail possible (feasible) is along existing railroad tracks, mainly along the BA Expressway connecting downtown and BA.

Not to mention the existing rail that connects downtown to Owasso, Claremore, Catoosa, Sand Springs, Jenks, Bixby, Sapulpa, the airport, etc.

[Boomer.....]

To my knowledge, the only path that they have looked at was along the BA Expy. It was supposed to run back and forth during the work day only. There were problems with the existing trains that use it because they park on it during the day.

[Whet]

Do that many people work downtown to make a light rail a viable solution? It has been several years since I worked in Tulsa, so I may be talking out of my ..., I just don't recall that many people acutally working in the downtown area. But if a rail transportation brought people into the downtown area, what system is in place to move them to their various places of work?

[Jimminy Crimson]

Do that many people work downtown to make a light rail a viable solution? It has been several years since I worked in Tulsa, so I may be talking out of my ..., I just don't recall that many people acutally working in the downtown area. But if a rail transportation brought people into the downtown area, what system is in place to move them to their various places of work?

Their two feet? :confused: ;)

[Boomer.....]

There would be a central hub which would be close enough to everything to walk. As it is now, people have to walk blocks because of the expensive parking lots being close and the cheaper ones being further out.

[M]

As it is now, people have to walk blocks because of the expensive parking lots being close and the cheaper ones being further out.

All I know is that the lot by McNellie's is free. And that is a good thing.

[mdklatt]

As it is now, people have to walk blocks because of the expensive parking lots being close and the cheaper ones being further out.

You might get mud all over your boots if you do that. :eek:

[Boomer.....]

Oh, I don't work downtown. ;)

[BigRedJed]

...at the expense of downtown.

OKC had the same problem. It's starting to change, though.
It actually started changing about 15 years ago when the director of the Edmond Economic Development Authority at the time told his people that they'd better get behind Oklahoma City's MAPS initiative, because it wouldn't do them any good to be a bedroom community to a dead city. Other cities stepped in line with Edmond to support MAPS. They did the same thing when MAPS for Kids passed in '99.

Ask the suburbs of Detroit how being outlying communities of a dead city is working out for them.

Those towns need to stop competing with Tulsa and start helping to reinvent it.

[Okla-homey]

I believe in Tulsa. I work in her heart. Right on 525 S. Main. Sure, the construction is a pain, but its already waay better than it was two years ago.
I'm sad in my pants the river dealio didn't pass, but it turned into a racial issue and the northside put the kibosh on it. whatever. That's democracy.

[BudSooner]

Actually it's about Tulsans being lied to, remember back in 1980 when Inhofe promised that if the 1/3 cent sale tax passed that after it had attained it's goal of reaching a set amount that it would expire.

Hint, it never did. it's alive and well living in 2007.
People are sick of being taxed to death, what is OKC sales tax? 7 1/2?
Tulsa....9 1/4...yeah people, really now who wants to add another 1/3 cent on top of that and never see it go away in your lifetime?
Do you realize that the river tax proponents spent right at $1 million dollars promoting it? That's sickening, just put that money towards the actual use and not asking us taxpayers to foot the bill when you can raise that kind of pesos.
Frankly isn't there a better way? sure there is but why not have us foot the bill?

Sure there are places where taxes are higher but there are reasons why big business doesn't want to come to Tulsa...roads/taxes/schools.

nuff said.








screw that, i'm running for mayor against Taylor......and I damn sure approve this message.























:D

[bluedogok]

I have never understood the city rivalry thing Growing up in OKC I never really saw one with Tulsa until I got to know people in Tulsa, it just seemed petty. It is even worse down here, you have the Dallas-Fort Worth crap, Dallas-Houston, San Antonio-Austin and then the one that Dallas-San Antonio and Houston have amongst themselves. Go on any development board and it is just ridiculous.

Of course, being in the architecture/development business, all of the cities doing well helps out my business.

[goingoneight]

It's kind of a preference thingy. I live in Tulsa, but I enjoy myself everytime I'm in OKC. Family ties to both cities, and a history in both cities.

I have to say, though... the whole "construction" part is funny. Anyone who lives in Tulsa knows the construction will never end. In Tulsa, we open up more projects before we finish what we've started. :O

And I'm in jury duty right now, so yeah... I've noticed the construction.

[KC//CRIMSON]

Cripple Fight!

[soonerboomer93]

Denver > OKC or Tulsa




;)

[Boomer.....]

People are sick of being taxed to death, what is OKC sales tax? 7 1/2?
Tulsa....9 1/4...yeah people, really now who wants to add another 1/3 cent on top of that and never see it go away in your lifetime?
The Tulsa sales tax is 8.517%.

[Mjcpr]

Actually it's about Tulsans being lied to, remember back in 1980 when Inhofe promised that if the 1/3 cent sale tax passed that after it had attained it's goal of reaching a set amount that it would expire.

Hint, it never did. it's alive and well living in 2007.
People are sick of being taxed to death, what is OKC sales tax? 7 1/2?
Tulsa....9 1/4...yeah people, really now who wants to add another 1/3 cent on top of that and never see it go away in your lifetime?

:rolleyes:

If you're speaking of the so-called "Third Penny" sales tax, that tax has only remained all of this time because it continues to be passed by a vote of the people. It is set aside from the other 2 pennies of sales tax the city collects for operations and "everything else" and is used and has been used for any number of capital improvement projects throughout the city. Without it, the streets (some folks' supposed sticking point with the River development vote) would be in even worse condition than they are now.

Tulsa sales tax is 8.517% (not 9.25%) and OKC is 8.375% (not 7.5%) and it's that low because they have no county sales tax, presumably because that's where the capitol is, I don't know the reason behind that. The actual city portion of those sales tax rates is less in Tulsa than it is in OKC (3% to 3.875%). Of Tulsa's 8.517%, 4.5% is state sales tax, 1.017% is county (part of this is Vision 2025) and 3% is city sales tax which includes the "Third Penny".

And I have no doubt you're one of the ones to whine about the streets. So when they put forward a vote to bump sales tax 1/2% permanently to be dedicated to street repair, in addition to the bond issues, be sure to vote for it.

[sooneron]

You'll pay the tax in one way or another. This is a person that has NO SALES tax on clothing and minimal on food/ stuff. I also happen to carry 11K+ on my property tax. :eek: My house is not that big.