But Jesus WANTS me to be tax exempt!!!!

[JohnnyMack]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16860611


December 4, 2007 · Sen. Charles Grassley (R-IA), ranking member of the Senate Finance Committee, expects responses this week from half a dozen of the country's largest churches to questions about their finances.

Grassley has taken on megachurches, where millions of dollars are raised with little oversight. In letters that Grassley sent to the churches last month, he wonders whether the lavish lifestyles of the ministers violate the churches' tax-exempt status.

The churches are huge, with congregations in the tens of thousands. The buildings are like magnificent stadiums, and the pastors are larger than life.

Rev. Creflo Dollar preaches the prosperity gospel, the belief that wealth is a blessing from God. He runs World Changers International Church just south of Atlanta. In a DVD called Does God Want You to be Poor?, Dollar says that Jesus was not poor and his disciples were not poor. He says faith can transform poverty into an abundant life.

"When we are prosperous people, we are responsible for going in, going back and impacting somebody else's life that's down. That's our job: to pick people up," Dollar says on the DVD. "But listen, how you gonna pick somebody up when you're down yourself?"

Rev. Dollar did not respond to requests for an interview. At a recent Bible study at his church, he encouraged members to open a savings account. But it's the extravagant pattern of spending at megachurches that led Grassley to send letters to the six ministries — including Dollar's — with inquiries about their financial records.

The others include Bishop Eddie Long Ministries in Georgia; Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn Ministries in Texas; Joyce Meyer Ministries in Missouri; and Paula White Ministries in Florida.

Grassley's Inquiry

Grassley said there have been complaints about the pastors' extravagant lifestyles and questions about whether the churches' tax-exempt status is being abused. That includes the personal use of Rolls Royce cars, private jets and multimillion-dollar homes. Grassley is also looking into exorbitant salaries, so called "love offerings" or cash payments to ministers; a justification for layovers in Hawaii and the Fiji Islands; and in one case, the purchase of a $23,000 commode with a marble top.

"There's enough questions being raised that we felt it should be further investigated," Grassley told NPR.

Since Grassley began seeking answers from the churches a few weeks ago, someone approached his staff with new information, that, "an individual always had to stay in a presidential suite when he traveled, and that the cost could be as high as $5,000," Grassley said. "Maybe that's not illegal, but it may raise questions about whether it's the right expenditure of money."

Some ministers have questioned the investigation. Bishop Eddie Long called it unjust and an attack on religious freedom and property rights. Long declined to talk further.

Ken Behr, president of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, says that most churches in the country do not file a financial statement and they don't have the level of transparency Grassley is looking for.

None of the churches belong to Behr's group. Behr said the Senate inquiry does not infringe on the separation of church and state because Grassley's questions have nothing to do with church doctrine.

Behr said it has to do with tax issues and the following types of questions:

"Were perks actually taxable benefits? Were gifts that were given to the ministry actually what's called a pass-through transaction, where the individual gives directly to another individual rather than using the church in between?" according to Behr.

Questions also focus on compensation for the pastors. "Was there some oversight?" Behr said.

Ministry Responses

While the majority of churches have responded to Grassley, it is unclear how many will answer his questions.

Joyce Meyer Ministries has posted financial reports on its Web site. In a news release, Meyer said that even though she is not required by law to answer Grassley's questions, she will do so by the Dec. 6 deadline.

Regarding the $23,000 commode, the statement calls it "a tall, elegant chest of drawers" and says it's one of more than five dozen pieces of furniture that the ministry paid $261,000 for in 2001 to furnish its headquarters.

Grassley said he wants to make sure that billions of dollars in donations are being used properly and not for personal gain.

"My business is the enforcement of the tax laws and the integrity of the tax code and making sure that trustees of charitable giving are true trustees," Grassley said.

If the churches fail to respond this week, they could face further scrutiny from the IRS and from congressional hearings.

I hope they drop the hammer on some of these turds.

[crawfish]

There's a preacher named Crefio Dollar?

[Hamhock]

There's a preacher named Crefio Dollar?


it's Creflo, and yes.

anyone know the scriptural basis for these nutjobs claiming Jesus and his disciples had a $43,000 yukon?

[frankensooner]

Most of those folks are on the board at ORU.

They did a thing on the News here about local preacher's homes. Some were in the Million Dollar range. They couldn't find any record of one of the largest churches preacher's home. Hmmmmmmmm what are they hiding? I bet he doesn't live in an apartment or rent house with his flock of kids. ;)

http://www.kfor.com/global/video/popup/pop_player.asp?ClipID1=1924058&h1=The%20Divine%20Dollar&vt1=v&at1=News - Special Coverage&d1=403100&LaunchPageAdTag=News&activePane=info&playerVersion=1&hostPageUrl=http%3A//www.kfor.com/Global/category.asp%3FC%3D65857%26nav%3Dmenu99_5&rnd=21970774[/url]

[OklahomaTuba]

Guys like that will get what is coming to them, here or on judgement day, or both, that is for sure.

[OklahomaTuba]

it's Creflo, and yes.

anyone know the scriptural basis for these nutjobs claiming Jesus and his disciples had a $43,000 yukon?

There is none.

If anything, these people should take an oath of poverty.

[Oldnslo]

I am far from an expert on the life and times of Jesus of Nazareth, but it would seem to me that a journeyman carpenter wouldn't be sitting on a $23,000 throne.

Inflation or not.

[frankensooner]

Matter of fact, he might just go right in and knock over the coffee shop till and the gift shop till in some of the churches I have seen. ;)

[OklahomaTuba]

Just depends on what a Church does with the funds from a gift shop and such.

Nearly every shop I have seen donates all the profits to charity & missions work. Not a damn thing wrong with that IMO.

[soonerinabilene]

anyone know the scriptural basis for these nutjobs claiming Jesus and his disciples had a $43,000 yukon?

I believe its Tilton 3:16, is it not?

[frankensooner]

For the Holidays:

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=mLw2wt_q8ac&feature=related

[batonrougesooner]

I think it's all a matter of proportion. It is one thing to be flying all over the globe in private jets, driving roll's royces and indulging in extravagant luxuries such as huge designer wardrobes and such.

I think it's quite another to live an upper-middle class executive lifestyle as some of the head pastors of some of the local OKC "megachurches" do.

Take for example the pastors of Crossings Community Church or Life Church. Those guys are essentially CEO's of, like it or not, multimillion dollar operations that include multiple campuses, off campus ministries, schools, global missions projects, etc. They are men who by necessity have talents that go beyond just preaching on Sunday mornings. It takes a talented individual to lead such an organization. As long as everything is above board and is done with complete transparency to the church board and membership, I see nothing wrong with providing these guys with the executive level pay and benefits that I believe they have earned and deserve.

I have no dog in this fight if you will, just my opinion.

[Widescreen]

If these organizations' books are not transparent they must be made so and investigated. There's nothing legally wrong with having a $23,000 throne but people need to know about it. If there is full disclosure and you still donate, that's your fault.

OTOH, if the investigation yields illegalities, that needs to be dealt with.

[StoopTroup]

There is no way a Man of God would do anything illegal.

These investigations are a waste of our tax money. :D

[C&CDean]

I have no problem with a preacher having a $23K ****ter - as long as everybody in the congregation gets $23K to spend frivolously on something stupid for themselves too.

If there's anybody in the congregation wanting for food/shelter/etc. and the preacher is jetting around on church $$ I'm pretty sure it'll all come out in the wash come the judgement.

[Okla-homey]

The irony is, IMHO, it was such extravagances which prompted a German monk to kick off the Reformation.

Now, these "preachers," most of whom routinely disparage the Roman Catholic Church as a bunch of idolaters and Mary worshippers, are reveling in the modern equivalent of the worst of the 15th century papal excesses.

Moral of the story? Give clergy unbridled control over vast wealth, and sooner or later, someone is gonna start feathering his nest at the expense of the faithful.

[BudSooner]

I'm starting my own church then.

[SCOUT]

I'm starting my own church then.
It worked for L. Ron Hubbard ;)

[olevetonahill]

Jesus said " render unto Ceasar the things that are Cesars "
Dont sound like he was sayin "Tax exempt" to me
Just sayin

[Mixer!]

http://clerestoryav.com/boonestate/comics/contest/jay.jpg

back to the topic: aren't some of those televangelists ORU regents?

[SoonerKnight]

Not sure what exactly is tax exempt. I think the church itself is tax exempt and if they are a big church and you need to travel all around you'd probably want a plane to do it in. Although southwest airlines might not be as comfortable wouldn't that make more sense than a private jet? I think that looking into these folks is a dicey thing. Sen. Charles Grassley (R-IA) has a pair atleast. Not sure what is to be gained though in the long term.

[Frozen Sooner]

As much as I'd love to see some of these dudes get a comeuppance...

I have a hard time accepting the government making a judgment on what churches are legitimate and which aren't.

Now, in my reading of the Bible, I think it's pretty inconsistent with the message of Jesus to live in a gigantic house and surround yourself with luxury goods. Who am I to say that these guys' version of the bible, where Jesus rode to work on a dinosaur with gold-plated spinners, isn't the correct version?

I'd be good with simply saying that non-profit groups (including churches) be required to post audited financial statements, I guess.

[Sooner_Bob]

As much as I'd love to see some of these dudes get a comeuppance...

I have a hard time accepting the government making a judgment on what churches are legitimate and which aren't.

Now, in my reading of the Bible, I think it's pretty inconsistent with the message of Jesus to live in a gigantic house and surround yourself with luxury goods. Who am I to say that these guys' version of the bible, where Jesus rode to work on a dinosaur with gold-plated spinners, isn't the correct version?

I'd be good with simply saying that non-profit groups (including churches) be required to post audited financial statements, I guess.



Pfffft, it was a donkey with curb feelers . . .

[toast]

Moral of the story? Give clergy unbridled control over vast wealth, and sooner or later, someone is gonna start feathering his nest...

Key is unbridled. Substitute any profession you want for clergy (politicians, city leaders, etc.) and it would probably be the same. Not that I'm condoning these guys or their actions, we are all human. I can't throw stones because I don't know what I would do with millions of dollars at my disposal. I can only control where and to whom I give my tithes and donations. It's all about accountability, and when there isn't any then junk like this happens.

[StoopTroup]

I remember when Oral Roberts filed his taxes one year back in the late 70's or 80's....

I think he said he made $27,000 that year yet he traveled in limos and wore Gucci shoes and tailored suits.

The thing is...he still filed his taxes from the income he made.

Now...go back to what Dean said...if everybody in the Church has equal access to the things bought for the Church...then it should be TAX EXEMPT.

If only a few Higher Ups are getting perks....that's income.

The Government needs to shore up these tax shelters IMHO.

[JohnnyMack]

Not sure what is to be gained though in the long term.

I think what's to be gained is to let the people who are being preyed upon by these men & women of the cloth know just where their money is going. These churches can't have their cake and eat it too. If they want to live this lifestyle they should report their financials openly so the parishioners can see where their tithings are really going.

If these churches were to open their books completely and didn't end up owing some serious taxes I'd be shocked.

WWJD? He'd wear Prada sandals of course.

[Sooner_Bob]

I think it's all a matter of proportion. It is one thing to be flying all over the globe in private jets, driving roll's royces and indulging in extravagant luxuries such as huge designer wardrobes and such.

I think it's quite another to live an upper-middle class executive lifestyle as some of the head pastors of some of the local OKC "megachurches" do.

Take for example the pastors of Crossings Community Church or Life Church. Those guys are essentially CEO's of, like it or not, multimillion dollar operations that include multiple campuses, off campus ministries, schools, global missions projects, etc. They are men who by necessity have talents that go beyond just preaching on Sunday mornings. It takes a talented individual to lead such an organization. As long as everything is above board and is done with complete transparency to the church board and membership, I see nothing wrong with providing these guys with the executive level pay and benefits that I believe they have earned and deserve.

I have no dog in this fight if you will, just my opinion.

We went to Crossings for the first time last Sunday. That is one nice place. The preacher did a great job with his message and we are considering another visit.

[Sooner_Bob]

If these churches were to open their books completely and didn't end up owing some serious taxes I'd be shocked.




Most churches I have attended (I was on the finance committee for one of them) openly print their weekly budget and are often open for a budget review by any church member. At a minimum they make public what the weekly contributions are and kinda go from there.

When I was on the finance committee I didn't have authority to sign checks, but I helped with the budget/expense reviews and my main problem was with the church sending cash outside the US before it would help locals.

[JohnnyMack]

Most churches I have attended (I was on the finance committee for one of them) openly print their weekly budget and are often open for a budget review by any church member. At a minimum they make public what the weekly contributions are and kinda go from there.

When I was on the finance committee I didn't have authority to sign checks, but I helped with the budget/expense reviews and my main problem was with the church sending cash outside the US before it would help locals.

Change my "shocked" to "disappointed".

[stoops the eternal pimp]

it's Creflo, and yes.

anyone know the scriptural basis for these nutjobs claiming Jesus and his disciples had a $43,000 yukon?


Here is one of the verses being manipulated:

2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

explanation of this verse-That, though he was rich - The possessor, as he was the creator, of the heavens and the earth; for your sakes he became poor-he emptied himself, and made himself of no reputation, and took upon himself the form of a servant, and humbled himself unto death, even the death of the cross; that ye, through his poverty-through his humiliation and death, might be rich- regain relationship with the creator



Used to convince people to give:

Lu 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

My explanation- The concept is basically "Do good and it will come back to you." Its not about getting rich. Its about sharing what you have with others, and having the right attitude about it.

[Sooner_Bob]

Change my "shocked" to "disappointed".


Oh I'm not saying that there aren't crooked folks out there, but I am saying that just because a church is in a nice big building, etc. that it isn't always crooked or looking for loopholes.


:D

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Take for example the pastors of Crossings Community Church or Life Church. Those guys are essentially CEO's of, like it or not, multimillion dollar operations that include multiple campuses, off campus ministries, schools, global missions projects, etc. They are men who by necessity have talents that go beyond just preaching on Sunday mornings. It takes a talented individual to lead such an organization. As long as everything is above board and is done with complete transparency to the church board and membership, I see nothing wrong with providing these guys with the executive level pay and benefits that I believe they have earned and deserve.



Thats a great point. It really isnt a matter IMHO the amount of the dollars, its how they convince others to give into what they are doing, and the way the money is handled.

I know Joyce Meyer is one of the ministries listed but I can tell you for a fact that she has done a lot of good with her money. I know that she gave thousands of dollars to an OKC church that spent 30 days in Cambodia helping children and doing different good things there. I know she was one of the first ministries on the scene in NO after Katrina hit. She personally spent time there giving away large amounts of clothing and food to people who needed it. There are countless tales of her buying people homes and helping people all over.

For the record, I have talked to her personally a handful of times. Is there any need to investigate her? I dunno, don't know her that well. But I did see in the article that she is willing to disclose her information without really having too. I think that kinda says something for her.

I work in a church. I have a fair share of responsibilities and am paid pretty well for what I do I think. oversee 3 separate departments that include 8 teachers and abou 100 students. If a person thinks I should not live well because I work for the church, that makes me a bit angry. But I also do with the money what God expects me to.

I do know that the church has enough money to provide around 5000 meals a year for families, build homes and do home repairs for widows and the elderly, fund bible schools here and in Africa, provide free counseling and help with job placement, and help strengthen the community.

[Sooner_Bob]

I do know that the church has enough money to provide around 5000 meals a year for families, build homes and do home repairs for widows and the elderly, fund bible schools here and in Africa, provide free counseling and help with job placement, and help strengthen the community.


Too bad more of that doesn't get more mainstream press.

[Widescreen]

Too bad more of that doesn't get more mainstream press.
What's scandalous (e.g. "newsworthy") when a church does something good?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

The only reason I posted that info is because no one here knows anything about the church I attend or could take that as I m trying to convince someone my church is the best and you should attend it. Almost everything the church does it tries to do anonomously. We tend to think its way more cooler to do something for somebody and they don't know who did it than to broadcast ourselves. Obviously not everything can be done privately so we make sure we deflect all credit and praise towards The One we feel has called us to do so.

But even if a church does something good and people hear about it, its not too entertaining to the masses.

[Mixer!]

What's scandalous (e.g. "newsworthy") when a church does something good?
Winner. Doing those works (helping the poor and needy) are considered normal behavior. When you have church leaders living in the lap of luxury (vs. living within their means), that tends to start pegging people's BS meters and inviting the media to start looking around.

[Desert Sapper]

If a person thinks I should not live well because I work for the church, that makes me a bit angry. But I also do with the money what God expects me to.


I'm not sure anyone thinks you shouldn't be able to live well. I think the concern is living in such an extravagent manner as to bring discredit to what you are supposed to represent. Christ lived humbly, served humbly, and died humbly, only to be raised in Glory. If one has the hope of rising to meet the Glory of God, he would be wise to do so humbly. As you are well aware, the corporal life is not the final life, but we will all face judgement for the way we go about living it.

If people (like those mentioned and many others) choose to use the fruits of their flock to live a full corporal life, they may find themselves answering to the most high on the day of judgement.

But its not mine or anyone else's place to judge the deeds of others.

[Kels]

I lead a non-profit, religious ministry. My staff of eight have undergraduate and graduate degrees. These highly committed people must raise their salaries. Most would make money hand-over-fist in a secular work environment, but choose to work with students instead.

Also, the average church in the US is well under 200 in attendance.

Here is a good article on church attendance in the US:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/april/32.85.html

Here is a good article on megachurches in this country:
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/megachurch/megastoday2005_summaryreport.html

[JohnnyMack]

Take for example the pastors of Crossings Community Church or Life Church. Those guys are essentially CEO's of, like it or not, multimillion dollar operations that include multiple campuses, off campus ministries, schools, global missions projects, etc. They are men who by necessity have talents that go beyond just preaching on Sunday mornings. It takes a talented individual to lead such an organization. As long as everything is above board and is done with complete transparency to the church board and membership, I see nothing wrong with providing these guys with the executive level pay and benefits that I believe they have earned and deserve.


It all feels like one big tax shelter to me. While I agree that these individuals who rise to power and are able to turn these churches into the multi-million dollar corporations are quite talented and should be compensated in a fashion that is commensurate with the amount of cash the church is taking in each year, I can't imagine that these people suffer the same tax burden as the CEO of a regular corporation that takes in an equal amount of revenue each year. If these churches are being run like a business, they should be paying the same in taxes. IMO.

[Sooner_Bob]

I lead a non-profit, religious ministry. My staff of eight have undergraduate and graduate degrees. These highly committed people must raise their salaries. Most would make money hand-over-fist in a secular work environment, but choose to work with students instead.

Also, the average church in the US is well under 200 in attendance.

Here is a good article on church attendance in the US:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/april/32.85.html

Here is a good article on megachurches in this country:
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/megachurch/megastoday2005_summaryreport.html


Thanks for the articles.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d175/erotictophat/borat_nice.jpg

[Tulsa_Fireman]

If these churches are being run like a business, they should be paying the same in taxes. IMO.

Truth.

[Okla-homey]

Back in the day, when a particular church got big, it would divide, or sponsor formation of another church nearby. Some folks from the mother church would then go and help bolster that baby church's numbers. That's how the church spread. Kinda like spiritual mitosis.

These high-falutin' "CEO's" of megachurches won't do that because it might mean they have to miss a Bentley payment.

I am reasonably certain the simple carpenter's Son who never owned a thing but the clothes on his back is very disappointed in this garbage.

[Frozen Sooner]

Random thought:

Perhaps all churches who employ fewer than (arbitrarily) five FTEs could remain 100% tax-exempt while those who employ more should begin feeling a tax burden?

Just a thought.

[JohnnyMack]

Random thought:

Perhaps all churches who employ fewer than (arbitrarily) five FTEs could remain 100% tax-exempt while those who employ more should begin feeling a tax burden?

Just a thought.

I think these churches are manipulating the concept of tax exempt. I don't think a small town preacher of some Pentecostal church in Guymon, OK is who should be targeted. I just don't think these preachers buying 260,000 worth of antique furniture, taking private jets all over the continent deserve to have EVERY expense considered tax exempt. Their needs to be more accountability.