So, when will they tell the truth about Vince Young?

[Tear Down This Wall]

The Sporting News appears to be the first to come out with an article about the ineffectiveness of Reggie Bush in the NFL. With Vince Young's perpetual crappy play, it's only a matter of time before the idiots who used to pump his up come around as well:

Bush's performance hasn't caught up to hype

Posted: November 22, 2007
If you saw all of Reggie Bush's commercials -- and never watched him play -- you would conclude he is one of the NFL's best players.

He isn't. Bush has charisma, Bush has endorsements, but Bush has not lived up to expectations in the NFL. He has not been nearly the player he was when he won the Heisman Trophy at USC, which makes him a target for criticism. Bush now seems trapped, both by opposing defenses and by the weight of expectations.

I asked Bush after the Saints' 23-10 loss to the Texans whether the transition from college football to the NFL was harder than he expected. "It definitely hasn't been easy," he said, still in a somber mood long after most of his teammates had departed from a disappointed locker room.

Bush has not rushed for 100 yards in any game this season (he did so only once as a rookie), nor has he topped 100 yards in receiving (something he did twice last year). The moves he mesmerized defenders with in college don't work as well in the NFL, where players are faster and bigger, less paralyzed by Bush's speed and uncanny ability to change direction.

Bush's performance against the Texans was typical of his season. He had 15 carries for a paltry 34 yards and caught 12 passes for 70 yards. He also fumbled the ball away at the Texans' 1-yard line, a crucial mistake that took away an almost certain Saints touchdown.

For Bush to become as good as he hopes to be -- indeed, as good as his No. 2 overall draft selection in 2006 says he should be -- he must follow the blueprint of undersized runners who became NFL game-breakers, such as Brian Westbrook of the Eagles and former Giant Tiki Barber. Though Westbrook is most dangerous in open space, he also can run effectively between the tackles, as could Barber. That is Bush's biggest weakness -- his inability to run with force inside. That makes him one-dimensional and much easier to defend, especially with Saints power back Deuce McAllister out for the season.

The Saints are giving Bush plenty of opportunities to run inside. But too often on inside handoffs, he looks like a contestant on Dancing with the Stars, making shifty moves left and right instead of running forward. Sometimes the Texans stuffed the run well and left Bush nowhere to go. But on several occasions, Bush hesitated at the line instead of hitting the hole hard or bounced outside, looking unsuccessfully for the big play. Because defenses don't respect Bush's ability to hurt them between the tackles, the field has become narrower for him. Defenses are happy to oblige Bush's preference to run outside because they can use the sideline to negate his speed.

"I mean, he's a great player," Texans linebacker DeMeco Ryans said carefully. "But I think we contained him well and just funneled him out to the sidelines. The sideline never misses a tackle, so you keep him pinned in. He can't make those big runs. You don't allow him to cut back and reverse the field on you."

Saints coach Sean Payton bluntly assessed Bush's performance against Houston. "To be honest with you, he had some missed assignments that bothered me," said Payton. "He had a couple of drops and a fumble. It wasn't good enough. He needs to play better."

Bush will play better only if he becomes a complete back, a runner who can deliver yards inside and out. He needs to take three or four yards inside when they are there instead of trying to get fancy and turn every run into a big play. He will never be a power back, but I don't buy talk that he's not big enough to carry the ball effectively inside. It's obvious Bush has been hitting the weights; his upper body is noticeably bigger than it was last season. And he's bigger than Westbrook and taller than Barber. Without McAllister around, Bush has been asked to do more, but he has done less, which is part of the reason the Saints have struggled.

Off the field, Bush has already achieved stardom. His jersey was by far the most popular fashion statement among Saints fans Sunday. But to be worthy of his high draft status, Bush must give the Saints more. So far in his brief NFL career, he has found making commercials far easier than making yards.

[MI Sooner]

Tell the truth? You mean that VY is a poor-man's Mike Vick, who is a poor man's Randall Cunningham, who is a poor man's Steve Young?

[stoopified]

Preaching to the choir brother.I said before VY's rookie year that he was just a Kordell Stewart waiting to happen.Heis the 22nd leading passer in the NFL.The real giveaway though is his passer rating which is 65.3 and is the 3rd worst in the league.He is a great athlete but a cappy QB.He did have a GREAT senior year at UT and is still riding that momentum.I wonder how long the Titans hang on to him before finally giving up?

[85sooners]

lol

[swardboy]

Obligatory ut fan coming to Vince's defense in 3....2....1....

[Vic n Tulsa]

The Sporting News appears to be the first to come out with an article about the ineffectiveness of Reggie Bush in the NFL. With Vince Young's perpetual crappy play, it's only a matter of time before the idiots who used to pump his up come around as well:

Bush's performance hasn't caught up to hype

Posted: November 22, 2007
If you saw all of Reggie Bush's commercials -- and never watched him play -- you would conclude he is one of the NFL's best players.

He isn't. Bush has charisma, Bush has endorsements, but Bush has not lived up to expectations in the NFL. He has not been nearly the player he was when he won the Heisman Trophy at USC, which makes him a target for criticism. Bush now seems trapped, both by opposing defenses and by the weight of expectations.

I asked Bush after the Saints' 23-10 loss to the Texans whether the transition from college football to the NFL was harder than he expected. "It definitely hasn't been easy," he said, still in a somber mood long after most of his teammates had departed from a disappointed locker room.

Bush has not rushed for 100 yards in any game this season (he did so only once as a rookie), nor has he topped 100 yards in receiving (something he did twice last year). The moves he mesmerized defenders with in college don't work as well in the NFL, where players are faster and bigger, less paralyzed by Bush's speed and uncanny ability to change direction.

Bush's performance against the Texans was typical of his season. He had 15 carries for a paltry 34 yards and caught 12 passes for 70 yards. He also fumbled the ball away at the Texans' 1-yard line, a crucial mistake that took away an almost certain Saints touchdown.

For Bush to become as good as he hopes to be -- indeed, as good as his No. 2 overall draft selection in 2006 says he should be -- he must follow the blueprint of undersized runners who became NFL game-breakers, such as Brian Westbrook of the Eagles and former Giant Tiki Barber. Though Westbrook is most dangerous in open space, he also can run effectively between the tackles, as could Barber. That is Bush's biggest weakness -- his inability to run with force inside. That makes him one-dimensional and much easier to defend, especially with Saints power back Deuce McAllister out for the season.

The Saints are giving Bush plenty of opportunities to run inside. But too often on inside handoffs, he looks like a contestant on Dancing with the Stars, making shifty moves left and right instead of running forward. Sometimes the Texans stuffed the run well and left Bush nowhere to go. But on several occasions, Bush hesitated at the line instead of hitting the hole hard or bounced outside, looking unsuccessfully for the big play. Because defenses don't respect Bush's ability to hurt them between the tackles, the field has become narrower for him. Defenses are happy to oblige Bush's preference to run outside because they can use the sideline to negate his speed.

"I mean, he's a great player," Texans linebacker DeMeco Ryans said carefully. "But I think we contained him well and just funneled him out to the sidelines. The sideline never misses a tackle, so you keep him pinned in. He can't make those big runs. You don't allow him to cut back and reverse the field on you."

Saints coach Sean Payton bluntly assessed Bush's performance against Houston. "To be honest with you, he had some missed assignments that bothered me," said Payton. "He had a couple of drops and a fumble. It wasn't good enough. He needs to play better."

Bush will play better only if he becomes a complete back, a runner who can deliver yards inside and out. He needs to take three or four yards inside when they are there instead of trying to get fancy and turn every run into a big play. He will never be a power back, but I don't buy talk that he's not big enough to carry the ball effectively inside. It's obvious Bush has been hitting the weights; his upper body is noticeably bigger than it was last season. And he's bigger than Westbrook and taller than Barber. Without McAllister around, Bush has been asked to do more, but he has done less, which is part of the reason the Saints have struggled.

Off the field, Bush has already achieved stardom. His jersey was by far the most popular fashion statement among Saints fans Sunday. But to be worthy of his high draft status, Bush must give the Saints more. So far in his brief NFL career, he has found making commercials far easier than making yards.

Penis envy lives long and well in Sooner Land. Nice to know VY still gets under the skin of most Sooners:texan:

[TUSooner]

The truest sentence in the whole article (which was about Reggie Bush, not VY, in case you didn't notice) :rolleyes: :

He needs to take three or four yards inside when they are there instead of trying to get fancy and turn every run into a big play.

[Stoop Dawg]

Right on cue....

[yermom]

Penis envy lives long and well in Sooner Land. Nice to know VY still gets under the skin of most Sooners:texan:

you mean by going 1-2 against us we are supposed to cower in fear when we hear his name?

if those guys weren't on crappy teams, maybe they would do something

[boomersooner82]

Careful now. We're talking about the No. 10 and No. 24 greatest players in college football history here (per ESPN) :rolleyes:

[Civicus_Sooner]

Penis envy lives long and well in Sooner Land. Nice to know VY still gets under the skin of most Sooners:texan:
Do what? He's a crappy QB admit it. Besides we can claim the best RB to hit the NFL since Barry Sanders.

[XingTheRubicon]

you mean by going 1-2 against us we are supposed to cower in fear when we hear his name?

if those guys weren't on crappy teams, maybe they would do something


This decade, 1-2 is a hot streak if you're a horn.

+8.33%

[XingTheRubicon]

oh and yeah, VY will be remembered for playing in the Adrian Peterson era....same with Reggie as well.

[Animal Mother]

I think it's up to Vince if he stays in the No Fun League. If he can park his ego and become a receiver he could be a great one. If he's tough enough to go over the middle and snot knock people on blocking assignments, he'll be around. Bush I don't know what he'll have to do. When A.D. is healthy I hope they meet in a game and A.D. gets 200 and Bush gets thrown into the stands on every tackle.

[MextheBulldog]

VY had a decent year last year, maybe its the sophomore slump. But he has looked terrrrrrrrriiiiibllllllllleeee lately.

P.S. This thread confuses me - its VY in the subject, but a link to a Reggie Bush story.

[sooneron]

I think VY is a tremendous athlete. I think he can get hot with the rest of them, but it's a different kind of hot. It's not a pro qb kind of hot. His play is best when it's improv. The problem with that is, you can't count on it week in and week out. He'll do well (IMO) to be mentioned in the same breath as Randall C. I think the same can be said of Bush, just change qb to rb in my verbage.
I'm sure the injuries that the tittans have suffered this year have had an affect on VY's play, but when I watch him in the pocket, it still seems like a square peg. You can tell he is still having issues with his progressions. Some of that may be due to trust issues with his receivers. I dunno, but he plays best when flushed from the pocket. If you contain him with equal pressure, and have decent coverage, he's at best an 80 something passer rating.

[SoonerWally]

Not a sophomore jinx, Madden NFL jinx.

[Lott's Bandana]

Obligatory ut fan coming to Vince's defense in 3....2....1....


That was awesome.

[Curly Bill]

I always said Vince Young would make a heck of an NFL player............................................ .................................................. .................................................. ..as a TE/receiver. ;)

[Jmorales22]

I'm an OU fan but I'll come to VY's defense. The guy was the rookie of the year last year, wasn't he? To those who say he had just a nice year in 2005, I say stop wearing crimson glasses. The guy was a monster. His team averaged 50 points per game, and his performance in the Rose Bowl against USC was nothing short of spectacular. UT wouldn't have been within 3 touchdowns of USC had it not been for him.

Maybe what's happening to him right now is what happened to him his first few years at UT: they are trying to coach him. Guys, he made Mack Brown look like he can coach! He can only be Vince. If you let him be himself, he'll probably get it done.

Of course in the NFL it's a different game. I have no doubt that players are stronger, faster, smarter, and better coached overall. The smart part is the biggest factor IMO. Players don't lose backside containment because they aren't playing at Fresno St. That's why Bush is struggling. You can't always stretch it back the other way where there are no blockers. Ladanian Tomlinson is the same kind of runner as Bush is. He was the same kind in college. Bush is not adapting his game. He has the talent, he just needs to learn how to play in the NFL.... and I think that definitely includes showing he can run it up the middle, being patient with his blocks, etc. By contrast, Adrian Peterson has been able to run inside, outside, or pretty much do whatever he wants since he first picked up a football, so the transition for him was easier.

[sooneron]

I'm an OU fan but I'll come to VY's defense. The guy was the rookie of the year last year, wasn't he? To those who say he had just a nice year in 2005, I say stop wearing crimson glasses. The guy was a monster. His team averaged 50 points per game, and his performance in the Rose Bowl against USC was nothing short of spectacular. UT wouldn't have been within 3 touchdowns of USC had it not been for him.
They did have the gift of a crappy big 12 in 05. I'll give you that ut would not have won without him. They wouldn't have made it there without him. OSU ring a bell?
Maybe what's happening to him right now is what happened to him his first few years at UT: they are trying to coach him. Guys, he made Mack Brown look like he can coach! He can only be Vince. If you let him be himself, he'll probably get it done.
NO coach is going to go out there and play sandlot football in the nfl. Too much cash rides on it.

Of course in the NFL it's a different game. I have no doubt that players are stronger, faster, smarter, and better coached overall. The smart part is the biggest factor IMO. Players don't lose backside containment because they aren't playing at Fresno St. That's why Bush is struggling. You can't always stretch it back the other way where there are no blockers. Ladanian Tomlinson is the same kind of runner as Bush is. He was the same kind in college.
LT was a much MORE physical runner than Bush in college
Bush is not adapting his game. He has the talent, he just needs to learn how to play in the NFL.... and I think that definitely includes showing he can run it up the middle, being patient with his blocks, etc. By contrast, Adrian Peterson has been able to run inside, outside, or pretty much do whatever he wants since he first picked up a football, so the transition for him was easier.
Nope, it has been widely documented that AD has had to learn how to be more patient with his blocks.


Answered.
I'm not wearing crimson glasses. Vince was a great college qb, no doubt, but he has a long way to go to make it to any elite level in the pros.

[yermom]

aside from OU in 2004 he had a pretty decent year then too

the Titans just need to play their games in Pasadena or something

[planosooner]

Would help also if he had some receivers that could hang on to the ball every once in awhile. Anyone even watch the last few games he's played in or are you looking at game stats only? His WR core is the bad. Lots of very catchable balls dropped left and right in the Jacksonville game. I don't think it's all on him.

[sooneron]

Would help also if he had some receivers that could hang on to the ball every once in awhile. Anyone even watch the last few games he's played in or are you looking at game stats only? His WR core is the bad. Lots of very catchable balls dropped left and right in the Jacksonville game. I don't think it's all on him.
Yeah, I saw the drops, they were horrendous, but when I see him reading the D, I don't see a great pro qb. I also saw some ****ty passes that were picked off.

[badger]

Tell the truth? You mean that VY is a poor-man's Mike Vick, who is a poor man's Randall Cunningham, who is a poor man's Steve Young?
And Mike Vick is oh-so poor, because he is facing all that legal crap :D

[cobrapilot]

When you make a 6 or even a 16 on the Wonderlic test you are not QB material in the NFL. He is a slash like Kordell at the best. Although he was rookie of the year, his QB rating was very low. The defense has figured out to stop VY all you have to do is stop him running. He cant throw. The interception to TD ratio is the worst in NFL history.

VY is a great athlete, just not a great NFL QB

btw had MAC been smart he would have lined him up like NUTT did McFadden and let him run

[JohnnyMack]

VY is below average right now. He has the tools (and the coaching staff) to allow him to become a good QB. I just can't see him ever being consistently great in the NFL.

[TUSooner]

NFL coaches just don't know yet what to do with VY and Vick types. They are too conservative and lack the imagination and the nerve to let these guys play. They are afraid to let them run and improvise too much because it's not something they can control and predict.
Once some ballsy, clever, imaginative OC gets a handle on what to do and lets those guys free, the game will be revolutionized - and wide frikkin open.

If I were an NFL head coach or OC, I'd have about 3 guys like that in the backfield at all times, and let them all be threats to run or throw on any play. We'd win, like, the Super Bowl and stuff, a lot. :cool:

[PLaw]

**I asked Bush after the Saints' 23-10 loss to the Texans whether the transition from college football to the NFL was harder than he expected. "It definitely hasn't been easy," he said, still in a somber mood long after most of his teammates had departed from a disappointed locker room. ***

Hmm, it hasn't appeared that difficult for the real deal and OUr man AD!

bush is will be a little more than an afterthought in five years and if AD stays healthy he will be on the road the HOF.

BOOMER

[cobrapilot]

like spurrier in washington dc???

[TUSooner]

like spurrier in washington dc???
You talkin to me?!
NO, I said I'd be real successful. And since it's my dream, I can be whatever I want!
:D
Besides, Spurrier didn't bring anything totally new and wide open. Not like I have in mind - or like I WILL have when I get there (in my dream, y'know).

[JohnnyMack]

NFL coaches just don't know yet what to do with VY and Vick types. They are too conservative and lack the imagination and the nerve to let these guys play. They are afraid to let them run and improvise too much because it's not something they can control and predict.
Once some ballsy, clever, imaginative OC gets a handle on what to do and lets those guys free, the game will be revolutionized - and wide frikkin open.

If I were an NFL head coach or OC, I'd have about 3 guys like that in the backfield at all times, and let them all be threats to run or throw on any play. We'd win, like, the Super Bowl and stuff, a lot. :cool:

I think GM's and owners cringe when you talk like that. $$$$$$$ right down the torn ACL drain.

[yermom]

btw had MAC been smart he would have lined him up like NUTT did McFadden and let him run

he didn't? :confused:

[MojoRisen]

I think GM's and owners cringe when you talk like that. $$$$$$$ right down the torn ACL drain.

Agreed-

Vick is more elusive than Young and can throw better - period. Young is a great ATH at the Pro level no doubt but will get chopped in half soon - by a DB that decideds they are sick of them running all over them - AKA AD a couple of weeks ago -

Do you guys really think at the Pro level that Young stacks up too Vick???

I really do not - strictly from a playing perspective. Vick runs a legit 4.3 and has better throwing ability.

[Jmorales22]

AD has had the physical tools to run inside and outside his entire playing career. Don't give me being patient with blocks for AD. He knew how to do that in college. If he had to learn so much to transition to the nfl, he wouldn't have been so good so early.

Who says playing a different style is sandlot? Was the west coast offense sandlot when Bill Walsh invented it? That being said maybe his style can't work in the NFL. Maybe he just can't cut it. Maybe they aren't coaching him any different. Maybe he doesn't have the OL and WR advantages he did in college. Maybe it's just a sophomore slump. I don't know. The over-coaching idea was just a guess. I don't think anybody knows. All I do know is that the NFL is not for me; there's no imagination in it anymore. There's mostly mediocrity, and it's celebrated. Maybe this year things are starting to change, but there's still A LOT of really, really bad teams. Also I don't get why some players who were so good just couldn't make it there....Derrik Strait for example. How could that guy NOT make it? He was so money in college.

OSU? That has happened with and without VY... see 2007. A weak schedule argument won't fly either, since VY in 2005 beat USC which had won 32 straight games and had pretty much been unbeatable. He also in the same year beat a very good Ohio St team at their place.

[MojoRisen]

I still don't think he is as good as Vick - College he had a better team all around but that is definitely arguable- at the pro level - Vick>>>>> Young.

If he weren't in jail -

AD hurt - Bush plays like a girl -

[KC//CRIMSON]

Penis envy lives long and well in Sooner Land. Nice to know VY still gets under the skin of most Sooners:texan:

You're hilarious, Vince.

[Partial Qualifier]

The Titans should move Vince to Wide Reciever, where he'd be more effective.

;)

[Tear Down This Wall]

To the poster who brought up Vince Young being "named" NFL Rookie of the Year...

...that is simply proof that the NFL is no longer about football, but simply a marketing mechanism for wealthy team owners and television executives.

In 2006, he threw 12 touchdowns and 13 interceptions, and had the lowest QB rating among starters at 66.7. He also fumbled 12 times on top of that. His completion percentage was 51.5%, barely over half.

Here's a list who had the same-type or better rookie seasons than Vince Young, but who weren't named Rookie of the Year. With most of them, you'd laugh at the thought of them being considered NFL Rookie of the Year with their crappy first year stats. However, the NFL stood up, straight-faced and handed Young the honor last year for his crappy showing.

Charlie Batch:
1998 57.0% completion percentage, 11 TDs - 6 Ints, 83.4 QB Rating, 229 rushing yards

Patrick Ramsey
2002 51.5% 9-8 71.8

Jake Plummer
1997 53.0% 15-15 73.0 216

Neil O'Donnell
1991 54.5% 11-7 78.7

Cade McNown
1999 54.0% 8-10 66.7 160

Peyton Manning
1998 56.6 26-28 71.2

Matt Leinhart
2006 56.7% 11-12 74.0

Byron Leftwich
2003 57.1% 14-16 73.0 108

Chad Hutchinson
2002 50.8% 7-8 66.3 74

Jeff George
1990 54.1% 16-13 73.8

This year Vince is playing even crappier. So...do they go ahead and give him the league MVP title?

[Frozen Sooner]

As much as everyone here hates the guy, Colin Cowherd has been saying all year that Vince Young is a sub-par NFL QB. Him saying so is even in a promotional clip for his show.

At 30th in passer ratings, he's got a point. He trails the incomparable Cleo Lemon.

Rex Grossman-a guy who got benched for Brian Greise-is 31st and only trails Vince by two points.

[Vic n Tulsa]

Do what? He's a crappy QB admit it. Besides we can claim the best RB to hit the NFL since Barry Sanders.

I'm not saying VY is the next Tom Brady or John Elway, but to compare him to Kordell Stewart??? C'mon now!

The guy is only in his 2nd year, so I think the book is still out on him. To write him off and say he's a horrible QB is Sooner hatred of anything Longhorn and not giving the kid some athletic credibility!

[stoopified]

VY had a decent year last year, maybe its the sophomore slump. But he has looked terrrrrrrrriiiiibllllllllleeee lately.

P.S. This thread confuses me - its VY in the subject, but a link to a Reggie Bush story.
Decnt year?He trew for 2199 yds,completed 51.5% of his passes,threw 12TDs but 13 INTs, AND had a passer rating of 66.3 among the 3 worst in the NFL.Yeah he did rush for 7TDs but fumbled 6 times, losing 2.If that is your idea of a decent year ,you and I have different definitions of decent.

[planosooner]

We said the same stuff during his sophomore year at texas. And look what happened the following year.

I'm not writing the dude off so soon is all I'm saying. He is definitely not looking so good this year, but if he gets some quality WRs things might change for him.

[Jacie]

So, when will they tell the truth about Vince Young?

Ummm, why start now? Has anything changed?