The Service Schools and Recruiting

[SicEmBaylor]

Stupid question here. Paul Johnson is just below Singeltary on the "Wish list" of coaches at Baylor next year. Someone said he heavily recruits in Texas and it got me wondering, how the hell does the coach of a service school recruit?

They still have to fulfill all of the qualifications to get into a service academy, correct? I guess I always thought that the players on those teams were all essentially walk-ons who volunteered to play football. I never knew there was recruiting involved.

[Ardmore_Sooner]

I've always wondered the same, but Army actually has their own site on Rivals for recruiting. Weird huh?

[SoonerKnight]

That's interesting! I served with an officer who played for Navy. The way it works is that they can recruit but if the person they get into the academy then decides to play pro ball they have to pay back their tuition. At least that is what this guy told me. He was the kicker for Navy and was offered to go pro. He passed it up to serve. His name was Ryan Bucchianeri! The Commanding Officer called him wide right because he missed the winning kick against Army as a freshmen. Apparently he was pretty good. Heres an article on him.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE0D81739F936A35751C1A9659582 60

[SicEmBaylor]

That's interesting! I served with an officer who played for Navy. The way it works is that they can recruit but if the person they get into the academy then decides to play pro ball they have to pay back their tuition. At least that is what this guy told me. He was the kicker for Navy and was offered to go pro. He passed it up to serve. His name was Ryan Bucchianeri! The Commanding Officer called him wide right because he missed the winning kick against Army as a freshmen. Apparently he was pretty good. Heres an article on him.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE0D81739F936A35751C1A9659582 60

They still have to fulfill the same requirements to get in through right? I can't see them fudging a little on their academic standards.

[SoonerKnight]

They still have to fulfill the same requirements to get in through right? I can't see them fudging a little on their academic standards.
Okay here is a quote from an article I found:

Acceptance to a service academy requires a ranking in the top 10 percent of a student's class and an SAT score in the 1,300 range -- although it varies -- and letters of recommendation from a U.S. Senator or representative.

Here is the article:

http://pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/columnists/gorman/s_458532.html

Hope this helps. Getting the recomendation is not hard if the coach is recruiting you. But they can get out of their contract but they have to buy out. They can transfer. When in an academy they are not part of the armed forces. This is because they are neither enlisted or commisioned officers.

[Ardmore_Sooner]

So they can go pro early, but have to payback the institution?

[SoonerKnight]

So they can go pro early, but have to payback the institution?
Go pro trans fer whatever but everyone there is on scholorship. Even if you do not want to stay in the service you can pay it back before graduation and resign from the academy. Yes, this does happen read the article. It does not talk about paying it back but like I said I asked the officer in that previous article about this and he said he was scouted and was going to be drafted. They were going to pay the Naval Academy back but he wanted to serve and not play football all his life. I asked him why he would choose to give up the money and he said "I wanted to do something that mattered." He was a nice guy and that earned my respect!

[OUmillenium]

A rarity in our modern world of materialism.

[sooneron]

Newsflash, there are a lot of kids out there that have good football skills, that are 1-3 star recruits that know deep down inside that they probably won't play on Sunday. I'd be willing to bet that about 75% of the kids know they don't have what it takes to play at the next level.

I think the same could be said for Baylor and recruiting, fwiw.

[Johnny Utah]

Recruits have to receive a congressional appointment, but if their academics are below admissions standards they are often placed in the respective acadamies prep school. In 2004, which was Bobby Ross's first year of football "recruiting" at Army, one of my sons (a lacrosse player) was "one football player away" from being admitted to the prep school. He was admitted to the US Merchant Marine Academy (DIII), with the lacrosse coach taking a relatively "active" role in the admissions process.

[sooner518]

One of my friends played tennis at Navy. He was recruited by them just like he was some other schools. He was/is a smart guy but there's no way he had a 1300 on his SAT. He might have been in the top 10% of our high school class but Im not sure about that. He always told me that there was no way he would have a chance to get in had he not been an athlete but that they just have to meet the minimum requirements. It was a pretty lengthy admission process from what I remember. Getting letters and stuff from congressman and meeting/interviewing with a bunch of people.

He's now serving in the Navy doing work on submarines in the Pacific. pretty cool stuff.

[usmc-sooner]

I would think if you can recruit kids in this day and age to a service academy, you are a pretty good recruiter. I think Homey attended a service academy. He might know more on this.

[yermom]

Homey went to The Citadel

a 1300 isn't that high...

[HateTheWhorns]

My brother played for USAFA in the mid-1980s and was recruited by them just as agressively as the non-academy programs. He had several offers (including OU), but was intent on attending the academy for career reasons.

All cadets are "on scholarship" and are also paid an annual stipend which in 1984 amounted to about $6K.

The USAFA recruiting coordinator was Fisher DeBerry and the OU recruiter was Gary Gibbs. As a diehard OU family, it was tough watching my brother turn down the OU opportunity, but considering he was a TE and OU signed Keith Jackson the following year, it turned out best for everyone.

[JohnnyMack]

The fact that Paul Johnson & Mike Singeltary are the top two candidates on your wish list make you, well, Baylor.

[NYC Poke]

Homey went to The Citadel

a 1300 isn't that high...

The Citadel isn't a real service academy, like West Point or Anapolis. It's a state-supported school that offers military training, like VMI.

[Dan Thompson]

All cadets are "on scholarship" and are also paid an annual stipend which in 1984 amounted to about $6K.


If the service schools can pay there players, why can't OU?

[JohnnyMack]

All cadets are "on scholarship" and are also paid an annual stipend which in 1984 amounted to about $6K.


If the service schools can pay there players, why can't OU?

Because Sam Bradford isn't likely to get shot in the head after he's done playing football?

[yermom]

they pay all cadets

maybe OU could pay all students :D

[MiccoMacey]

ALL cadets get paid.

When I was in the ROTC at OSU, I got paid 150 a month. I didn't ask which secret slush fund it came from, I just took the money.

It is definitely much tougher to recruit to the service acadamies. But the same thing that makes it seem tough to sell is more often than not a selling point.

Go to a service academy, become a commissioned officer, pull in large cash in the Army/Navy as a Lieutenant or Captain (I would include Air Force but we're talking about real military) while being trained to lead men, take that experience (along with a highly valued degree from a service academy) and you have a huge advantage on just about any other competitor in most career fields not named the NFL. They have a much better chance to pull in much more g than their age-wise counterparts.

Plus, as was stated, not every athlete is a five-star kid. Some 1-3 star kids can be good athletes and great players, but they know they won't be selected by an OU or USC. But they still have the drive and desire to compete. What else gives them a better opporunity to both play DI football and prepare themselves for life after college?

Remember these guys are athletes, and most athletes love competition. Whether on the football field or battlefield, some guys just love the challenges.

[yermom]

they also graduate in 4 years, right?

[MiccoMacey]

I think they are required to, yes. But I'm not 100% sure on that.

But hey...I think a 1300 on the SAT is pretty high so what do I know. :D

[OU Adonis]

The whole getting shot after playing football COULD be a turn off.

[sooner_born_1960]

The whole getting shot after playing football COULD be a turn off.
I need a link to that requirement.

[mfosterftw]

Recruits have to receive a congressional appointment, but if their academics are below admissions standards they are often placed in the respective acadamies prep school. In 2004, which was Bobby Ross's first year of football "recruiting" at Army, one of my sons (a lacrosse player) was "one football player away" from being admitted to the prep school. He was admitted to the US Merchant Marine Academy (DIII), with the lacrosse coach taking a relatively "active" role in the admissions process.

My brother went to Kings Point...


Go to a service academy, become a commissioned officer, pull in large cash in the Army/Navy as a Lieutenant or Captain (I would include Air Force but we're talking about real military) while being trained to lead men, take that experience (along with a highly valued degree from a service academy) and you have a huge advantage on just about any other competitor in most career fields not named the NFL. They have a much better chance to pull in much more g than their age-wise counterparts.

Micco, the real service academy money is at USMMA. If you go Navy you're pretty much stuck in the Navy. Go USMMA and you're Navy Reserve, with good chance most of that obligation will be waived depending on what your job is once you graduate. My brother graduated eight years ago and has been with Military Sealift Command since. It's civil service, though sometimes he's served either on Naval vessels or adjacent to them (enforcing Iraqi sanctions in the Gulf prior to the war). He sticks mostly to fleet ocean tugs though, and other than when he towed the Cole out of the Yemeni harbor, hasn't seen much activity. He's out of San Diego now on a different tug, cruising anywhere from Seattle to Panama and west to Guam, pulling six figures with virtually no expenses other than the restored '73 MG he plays with.

If you want to fly, USMMA is definitely the way to go. The Navy holds open several dozen flight training slots each year out for USMMA grads, and they never fill up.

Also, the congressional appointments out of Oklahoma rarely get used up - none from the state the year my brother entered.

[Scott D]

All cadets are "on scholarship" and are also paid an annual stipend which in 1984 amounted to about $6K.


If the service schools can pay there players, why can't OU?

Any player that was playing at OU that happened to be in one of the ROTC programs would receive some sort of payment.

The Academies per say are not paying the players, the Department of Defense is paying them per the requirements of the agreement the cadets signed up for when they were accepted into them.

[MiccoMacey]

BTW, I say all cadets...it's not all.

You can spend the first two years in ROTC and not get paid because you haven't signed a contract to enter the military upon graduation.

ROTC is like any other course. You take a few classes, have a lab, and learn something about the make-up of the military along the way. It's not until your junior year that you have to make a choice to sign or not.

In the meantime, the first two years of ROTC may be the easiest "A" you'll ever receive, and you get to decide for yourself if it's a possible career path for you or not.

In all honesty, it's a win-win situation.

[bluesmagoo]

Roger Staubach did his military committment, then played for Dallas. He didn't have to pay back any money.

[Scott D]

It depends on how they deal with the matter of their commitment and their being drafted for a pro sport. Napoleon McCallum served his full commitment as well, spending the last year or two of it as a reservist. David Robinson's situation was odd if I remember it correctly, and I think that guy who played DT for the Cowboys served most if not all of his commitment as well.

[soonerloyal]

From what I understand, your obligation to repay is only if you do not fulfill your miltary service. What you do after you serve your full active duty/reservist commitment is your own business, and does not concern the service academy financially. Is that right? Seems Staubach did exactly as he was obligated.

[Johnny Utah]

My brother went to Kings Point...

That's great for your brother ... I guess he ended up liking it?

My son decided not to go pretty much after we went up for a campus visit ... I think he was still bummed from not getting into West Point prep. Plus he really wanted Army so he did the next best thing ... got a 4-year ROTC scholarship. They're giving him money all the time ... and we don't ask what secret slush fund it came from.

[lexsooner]

I thought if you left any of the service academies during the first two years, you had no financial or service obligation, but if you left during your third or later years, you had to pay back the cost of your education and/or serve as an enlisted man for a certain number of years.

BTW, Navy and Army use their prep schools heavily to bring in jocks who would not otherwise be able to get into the academies because of grades and test scores. If they can hack it the year at the prep schools, they get appointments into the regular academies. There was a controversy a few years ago about these prep schools. Some have accused them of being no more than back doors for the academies to have 1-A football programs, because so many Army and Navy varsity footballers came from the prep schools.

Personally, I don't see why tax payer money should be used to fund prep schools so Army and Navy can play Division 1A football. Without these prep schools, they could still field very competitive lower division programs, and what is wrong with that?

[usmc-sooner]

My brother went to Kings Point...



Micco, the real service academy money is at USMMA. If you go Navy you're pretty much stuck in the Navy. Go USMMA and you're Navy Reserve, with good chance most of that obligation will be waived depending on what your job is once you graduate. My brother graduated eight years ago and has been with Military Sealift Command since. It's civil service, though sometimes he's served either on Naval vessels or adjacent to them (enforcing Iraqi sanctions in the Gulf prior to the war). He sticks mostly to fleet ocean tugs though, and other than when he towed the Cole out of the Yemeni harbor, hasn't seen much activity. He's out of San Diego now on a different tug, cruising anywhere from Seattle to Panama and west to Guam, pulling six figures with virtually no expenses other than the restored '73 MG he plays with.

If you want to fly, USMMA is definitely the way to go. The Navy holds open several dozen flight training slots each year out for USMMA grads, and they never fill up.

Also, the congressional appointments out of Oklahoma rarely get used up - none from the state the year my brother entered.

I'll write Micco a letter to help get him in. :D

[Vaevictis]

Personally, I don't see why tax payer money should be used to fund prep schools so Army and Navy can play Division 1A football. Without these prep schools, they could still field very competitive lower division programs, and what is wrong with that?

Tradition has value, especially to the military.

[TMcGee86]

Without these prep schools, they could still field very competitive lower division programs, and what is wrong with that?

easy, ND would lose half their schedule.

next question.

[Johnny Utah]

BTW, Navy and Army use their prep schools heavily to bring in jocks who would not otherwise be able to get into the academies because of grades and test scores. If they can hack it the year at the prep schools, they get appointments into the regular academies. There was a controversy a few years ago about these prep schools. Some have accused them of being no more than back doors for the academies to have 1-A football programs, because so many Army and Navy varsity footballers came from the prep schools.

I'd like to think of it as a way for a high school student with strengths other than academics to get into a service academy. They still have to meet all the other requirements including the congressional appointment, so there are very few if any "thugs" getting in. After all, they're attending an academy to ultimately fight for our country and defend our freedom!

[lexsooner]

I'd like to think of it as a way for a high school student with strengths other than academics to get into a service academy. They still have to meet all the other requirements including the congressional appointment, so there are very few if any "thugs" getting in. After all, they're attending an academy to ultimately fight for our country and defend our freedom!

I could accept that argument better if the service academies were the only avenue for young men and women to become commissioned officers in the military. However, there are scores of fine Army and Navy ROTC programs on college campuses across this country, and they arguably produce officers every bit the quality the USMA and USNA do. If there are many other ways to become officers other than attending the service academies, it begs the question why we need to fund prep schools for the USMA and USNA. Besides, my understanding is most USNA middies are majoring in engineering and other technical fields. Bringing in middies from the prep school who have "strengths other than academics" is great for the football team, but does not exactly meet the technical needs of the nuclear sub or surface fleet.

[jrsooner]

They still have to fulfill the same requirements to get in through right? I can't see them fudging a little on their academic standards.My bro and I talked this out at the Navy/Tech bowl game a few years ago. He's a tech grad but Lt. Com or Commander (can't remember) assigned down at Corpus at the time.

He basically said that each recruit has to meet the same standards as any other recruit that goes to the Naval Academy. The discussion came up when I noticed 2 tech linemen had about the same weight as the whole frontline of the Navy team. :)

[yermom]

I could accept that argument better if the service academies were the only avenue for young men and women to become commissioned officers in the military. However, there are scores of fine Army and Navy ROTC programs on college campuses across this country, and they arguably produce officers every bit the quality the USMA and USNA do. If there are many other ways to become officers other than attending the service academies, it begs the question why we need to fund prep schools for the USMA and USNA. Besides, my understanding is most USNA middies are majoring in engineering and other technical fields. Bringing in middies from the prep school who have "strengths other than academics" is great for the football team, but does not exactly meet the technical needs of the nuclear sub or surface fleet.

i'm sure they make some cash back on football though. it also gets them on TV, etc.. more having a decent football team. otherwise how often do you hear anything about the service academies?

[ruf/nekdad]

Go to a service academy, become a commissioned officer, pull in large cash in the Army/Navy as a Lieutenant or Captain (I would include Air Force but we're talking about real military)

Bite me. ROTC?.

[bmrsnou]

My brother is on the rifle team (you'd be surprised how many schools have one!) at West Point. He was recruited by quite a few schools.He had to meet all of the entrance requirements and be recommended by his congressional rep. My understanding from him is that you are committed to military service after you return for the first day of your junior year. If you decide after then, that it's not for you, you owe them six years of enlisted duty.

Also, you might be surprised at how hard they do recruit for other sports. A friend of mine at work has a son who is on the football team at Army, and he was recruited by some big 12 schools and c-usa, but Army does put on one heck of a push. I guess if it's for you, have at it!!!

[usmc-sooner]

I could accept that argument better if the service academies were the only avenue for young men and women to become commissioned officers in the military. However, there are scores of fine Army and Navy ROTC programs on college campuses across this country, and they arguably produce officers every bit the quality the USMA and USNA do. If there are many other ways to become officers other than attending the service academies, it begs the question why we need to fund prep schools for the USMA and USNA. Besides, my understanding is most USNA middies are majoring in engineering and other technical fields. Bringing in middies from the prep school who have "strengths other than academics" is great for the football team, but does not exactly meet the technical needs of the nuclear sub or surface fleet.

you don't have to have a service academy or ROTC to be an officer. You need a Bachelor's Degree and meet the standards of your desired service. In the Marine Corps I believe you become augmented after you pick up Captain if you went to a service academy, and not until you get to Major if not.
There are also other officer programs such as meritorious commisions, Warrant Officer Programs and other programs I'm sure.

[Stitch Face]

Bite me. ROTC?.

For realz. I'm a doc in the AF and I get emails from the top everyday looking for volunteer AF docs to go to Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. to serve in Army billets in addition to our own deployments. Apparently the real military has a little trouble filling their slots nowadays.

If it weren't for the AF the real military wouldn't have anyone to fly their asses to Balad or Germany and sew them back together.

[usmc-sooner]

Bite me. ROTC?.

Not that Micco needs me to take up for him, but he was an Army Captain, I believe in a NBC unit. He's an Iraq veteran and paid his dues.

He was making a joke people. relax, breath

it's not like he's suggesting that you Air Force guys have to fight or anything :D

[1stTimeCaller]

the whole 'if they quit the Academy they have to serve as an enlisted person' is up to the Commander that releases them. It's in the contract. The same language is in ROTC cadet's contracts too.

On another note, do you guys remember when I was complaining about the West Point guy that was working nights for me a while back? It appears that he was lazy and incompetent on other jobs. Today was his last day on our payroll.

[cobrapilot]

They have to meet the academic requirements, as well as height and weight

however they can still be recruited they go after lots of military kids at fort hood as well as brainiacs at schools like highland park alamo heights

[usmc-sooner]

the whole 'if they quit the Academy they have to serve as an enlisted person' is up to the Commander that releases them. It's in the contract. The same language is in ROTC cadet's contracts too.

On another note, do you guys remember when I was complaining about the West Point guy that was working nights for me a while back? It appears that he was lazy and incompetent on other jobs. Today was his last day on our payroll.

I'd take a guy who had a few real life experiences over someone who just had a service academy background.

[Johnny Utah]

I could accept that argument better if the service academies were the only avenue for young men and women to become commissioned officers in the military. However, there are scores of fine Army and Navy ROTC programs on college campuses across this country, and they arguably produce officers every bit the quality the USMA and USNA do. If there are many other ways to become officers other than attending the service academies, it begs the question why we need to fund prep schools for the USMA and USNA. Besides, my understanding is most USNA middies are majoring in engineering and other technical fields. Bringing in middies from the prep school who have "strengths other than academics" is great for the football team, but does not exactly meet the technical needs of the nuclear sub or surface fleet.

One of my earlier posts referenced my sons experience with the academy appointment process. He really wanted the USMA and (as we now like to say) "he was one Bobby Ross football recruit away from going to the prep school". The USNA was too technical/engineering oriented for him, however, he received an appointment to the US Merchant Marine Academy, which was somewhat assisted by athletics (lacrosse). Since he really wanted to be an Army officer he passed on that and got himself a scholarship to one of the best ROTC programs around. Word is that the better ROTC programs generally "kick butt" in ROTC competitions against the USMA. Unfortunately, as in much of life, there's a lot of politics involved in this stuff.