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View Full Version : Basher declares some OK public schools "drop-out factories"



Okla-homey
10/31/2007, 08:58 AM
and the educrats are predictably in full denial mode.


Tulsa cited in dropout study

Tulsa World, by Staff and Wire Reports
10/31/2007

But the research methods irk state and local educators.:eek:

Twenty-two Oklahoma high schools, including seven in Tulsa Public Schools, have been defined as "dropout factories" by a Johns Hopkins University researcher in a report that rankles state and local administrators.

An analysis of Education Department data conducted by Johns Hopkins for The Associated Press shows that about 1,700 regular or vocational high schools nationwide fit that description: a high school where no more than 60 percent of students who start as freshmen make it to their senior year.

That is 12 percent of all such schools, no more than a decade ago but no less, either.

"If you're born in a neighborhood or town where the only high school is one where graduation is not the norm, how is this living in the land of equal opportunity?" asks Bob Balfanz, the researcher at Johns Hopkins who calls such schools dropout factories.

Oklahoma State Superintendent Sandy Garrett said the term places an unfair amount of blame on schools and even trivializes a significant social problem in America.

Nationally, about 70 percent of U.S. students graduate on time with a regular diploma. For Hispanic and black students, the proportion drops to about half.

"I think the school certainly has a part in trying to do everything it can to keep kids in school, that's why I've asked (the Legislature) to fund graduation coaches," Garrett said, "but they don't drop out with our permission. They drop out with the permission of parents and grandparents.

"We need to work together as a community and state to support our students." [I'm sorry, but predictably, note the appeal for more money to fix the problem -- "graduation coaches? puhleeze!]

She said the numbers used in the Johns Hopkins analysis do not appear to take into account student mobility from one school to the next, a rate that typically is higher in urban areas such as Oklahoma City and Tulsa.

And attributing blame solely to schools ignores the myriad reasons students have for leaving school, including drug abuse and other social ills, Garrett said. [IOW, it's not our fault -- but can we still have more money please?]

Federal lawmakers have not focused much attention on the dropout problem. The No Child Left Behind education law, for example, pays much more attention to educating younger students. But that appears to be changing.

House and Senate proposals to renew the 5-year-old No Child law would give high schools more federal money and put more pressure on them to improve. [Pressure that should include merit pay for teachers and elimination of job security if test scores don't improve IMHO]

The current law imposes serious consequences on schools that report low scores on math and reading tests, such as having to replace teachers or principals, but it lacks the same kind of teeth when it comes to graduation rates. [which no doubt is a tremendous source of relief to teachers in these crappy high schools]

Garrett pointed out that Oklahoma already has put in place one of the changes being considered for No Child Left Behind.

Oklahoma's new Wave system is a data system that will be used to track students throughout their school years, and thus more accurately measure graduation and dropout rates across the state

Sharolyn Sorrels, school improvement administrator for Tulsa Public Schools, said more than 20 percent of students labeled ninth-graders in TPS actually are in their second year of high school, because they failed core subjects during their freshman year.

Since not all states allow schools to categorize students as ninth-graders for more than one year, the retention rates for Oklahoma schools may be skewed by the report's method of simply comparing the number of 12th-graders one year with the number of ninth-graders four years earlier.

"A lot of our freshmen are older students, because we allow them to come back and do over those courses. We're actually encouraging them to come back and try again," Sorrels said.

Elizabeth Martin, principal at Tulsa's Memorial High School, which appeared on the list, called the analysis "very unfair." [of course]

"Every child that makes a choice to go somewhere else, there is an individual reason for each person. A lot of these kids are representative of a lot of the problems that are going on in our city right now," Martin said. [yadda, yadda, yadda]

"I would say to that researcher, you walk into my school one day. You walk in my shoes, and then you tell me, is this a dropout factory? Absolutely not. They would see what's really going on instead of staring at the black and white numbers on a piece of paper." [on what then, pray tell, should they focus...wait, I'll bet it's how you make them "feel good about themselves!" ]

Martin said TPS is leading the state in offering students alternative education programs, so they can graduate from high school.

"Right now, Tulsa is being extremely proactive because we have opened Tulsa Learning Academy, the school at the (Promenade) mall for kids who have dropped out," she said.

"There are just a lot of reasons kids drop out. There's not just one. For someone to make a statement that we're just saying, 'That's OK,' is just so wrong."

TPS schools on national “Dropout Factory” list


Central High School

East Central High School

McLain High School

Memorial High School

Hale High School

Webster High School

Rogers High School

P.S., don't be gettin' too uppity OKC, you got dimed-out too.;)



Oklahoma schools on national “Dropout Factory” list

Guthrie High School

Mannford High School

Capitol Hill High School, Oklahoma City

Douglass High School, Oklahoma City

U.S. Grant High School, Oklahoma City

John Marshall High School, Oklahoma City

Northwest Classen High School, Oklahoma City

Star Spencer High School, Spencer (Oklahoma City district)

Emerson Alternative High School, Oklahoma City

Pocola High School

Putnam City High School, Oklahoma City (Putnam City district)

Putnam City West High School, Oklahoma City (Putnam City district)

L.E. Rader Center, Sand Springs

Juvenile Center,Tecumseh

Wagoner High School

sooner_born_1960
10/31/2007, 09:14 AM
Last I checked, those schools didn't move around and meet in secret locations. It's not the school's fault if the kids don't show up.

Vaevictis
10/31/2007, 09:17 AM
Really, I just don't know what an individual school is supposed to prevent drop-outs. If the kid just straight up refuses to participate, what are they going to do? Once again, I expect the parents are the most important factor.

(I wonder if a cash 'tuition refund' to parents for students who graduate on time would make a difference. Just gotta make sure to implement policies preventing promotion and graduation to students who don't cut the mustard.)

Okla-homey
10/31/2007, 09:23 AM
Maybe the "graduation coaches" will go to their homes like Mr. Hand in "Fast Times at Ridgmont High" and tutor them.

Good points guys. if the kids don't show-up, it's not the skools' fault. That said, why don't the educrat apologists just nut up and say that? Why? Perhaps because that would involve passing on an opportunity to beg for more money.;)

TUSooner
10/31/2007, 09:24 AM
I stopped reading here:

"If you're born in a neighborhood or town where the only high school is one where graduation is not the norm, how is this living in the land of equal opportunity?" asks Bob Balfanz, the researcher at Johns Hopkins who calls such schools dropout factories.

What sort of mumbo-jumbo eduspeak is that?!

Just because you are so irresponsible as to p1ss away an opportunity, doesn't mean you didn't have one.
I blame the culcha that values bling and p***y and bad-azz attitude more than education and reponsibility.
That is all.

OUDoc
10/31/2007, 09:38 AM
Just because you are so irresponsible as to p1ss away an opportunity, doesn't mean you didn't have one.

Exactly.

Pricetag
10/31/2007, 11:07 AM
Maybe the "graduation coaches" will go to their homes like Mr. Hand in "Fast Times at Ridgmont High" and tutor them.

Good points guys. if the kids don't show-up, it's not the skools' fault. That said, why don't the educrat apologists just nut up and say that? Why? Perhaps because that would involve passing on an opportunity to beg for more money.;)
Because they'd have Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would be here tomorrow if they did. You live in Tulsa--you know the type of neighborhoods those schools are in. I wasn't surprised by a single one.

I'd hate to have to fight that kind of battle on a daily basis. How do you force people to care?

Mjcpr
10/31/2007, 11:09 AM
Is there a Tulsa HS that isn't on the list not named BTW?

Okla-homey
10/31/2007, 11:25 AM
Is there a Tulsa HS that isn't on the list not named BTW?

Hmmm, BTW may be the only one. isn't that some kind of speshul skool for high achievers?

Widescreen
10/31/2007, 11:52 AM
Is there a Tulsa HS that isn't on the list not named BTW?
Edison
Union (not TPS, of course, but still in Tulsa)

I was a little surprised that Memorial was on there given that it's not exactly a low income area.

SicEmBaylor
10/31/2007, 12:04 PM
Do you have a link to the full list?
I want to see if mine is on there.
I doubt it, but you never know.

mdklatt
10/31/2007, 12:07 PM
Is there a Tulsa HS that isn't on the list not named BTW?

I think Pat attended a dropout factory. This sentence makes no sense. :confused:

Okla-homey
10/31/2007, 12:07 PM
Do you have a link to the full list?
I want to see if mine is on there.
I doubt it, but you never know.

all 22 in OK are in the first post.

sooner_born_1960
10/31/2007, 12:08 PM
FtG ain't on it.

mdklatt
10/31/2007, 12:09 PM
Last I checked, those schools didn't move around and meet in secret locations. It's not the school's fault if the kids don't show up.

It kinda is if the school sucks.

Okla-homey
10/31/2007, 12:10 PM
BTW, WTF is the Tecumseh Juvenile Center on there? Can a kid in correctional school drop-out? What if he gets paroled? Hmmm?

sooner_born_1960
10/31/2007, 12:13 PM
It kinda is if the school sucks.
It's a high school diploma. No one is gonna ask if the school sucks or not.

Vaevictis
10/31/2007, 12:14 PM
Maybe the "graduation coaches" will go to their homes like Mr. Hand in "Fast Times at Ridgmont High" and tutor them.

Good points guys. if the kids don't show-up, it's not the skools' fault. That said, why don't the educrat apologists just nut up and say that? Why? Perhaps because that would involve passing on an opportunity to beg for more money.;)

I tend to agree with that sentiment.

Graduation coaches are totally unnecessary. High schools publish graduation requirements; if you want to graduate, it's not hard to grab the requirement sheet and make sure take a class you can pencil into each slot.

Besides, isn't this what we have school councillors for?

sooneron
10/31/2007, 12:16 PM
I find the title of this thread strange. Basher? Wouldn't Capt. Obvious be more apropos? Schools in somewhat sketchy areas (with the exception of a few) might not have a good graduation rate. Shocked, I am.

Okla-homey
10/31/2007, 12:21 PM
I find the title of this thread strange. Basher? Wouldn't Capt. Obvious be more apropos? Schools in somewhat sketchy areas (with the exception of a few) might not have a good graduation rate. Shocked, I am.

I find it all quite stereotypical of educrat-speak for the officials quoted to have claimed a) it's not our fault, b) we need more money, in this case to fix what we have repeatedly stated we have no control over c) it's not fair because objective data do not accurately depict the overall situation and d) "it takes a village" to educate a child.

Those are verses 1-4 in the Gospel of American Public Education.

mdklatt
10/31/2007, 12:25 PM
It's a high school diploma. No one is gonna ask if the school sucks or not.

Just showing up isn't enough to get a diploma. If the teachers suck at teaching you the material (or more likely, just don't care whether or not you learn it), perfect attendance isn't going to matter.

I thought the conventional wisdom around here was that lazy overpaid teachers are to blame for everything wrong with the schools. Now it's all the students' fault?

Widescreen
10/31/2007, 12:26 PM
I find it all quite stereotypical of educrat-speak for the officials quoted to have claimed a) it's not our fault, b) we need more money, in this case to fix what we have repeatedly stated we have no control over c) it's not fair because objective data do not accurately depict the overall situation and d) "it takes a village" to educate a child.
OK, that's a great point.

1) It's not our fault. We have no control over the dropout rates.
2) Give us money so we can influence dropout rates.

The argument makes no sense at all.

sooner_born_1960
10/31/2007, 12:27 PM
I guess I'm unconventional. I blame the students/parents.

Mjcpr
10/31/2007, 12:29 PM
Hmmm, BTW may be the only one. isn't that some kind of speshul skool for high achievers?

Yeah, it's something. A magnet school or some such.

sooneron
10/31/2007, 12:32 PM
I find it all quite stereotypical of educrat-speak for the officials quoted to have claimed a) it's not our fault, b) we need more money, in this case to fix what we have repeatedly stated we have no control over c) it's not fair because objective data do not accurately depict the overall situation and d) "it takes a village" to educate a child.

Those are verses 1-4 in the Gospel of American Public Education.
And I agree with you on that. I don't think large ISD systems work these days.

Okla-homey
10/31/2007, 12:32 PM
OK, that's a great point.

1) It's not our fault. We have no control over the dropout rates.
2) Give us money so we can influence dropout rates.

The argument makes no sense at all.

I also love the specious argument they make here in OK that they can't support merit pay increases for teachers until OK pays all its teachers the national average. IOW, we need to give raises to the slugs before we think about rewarding the good ones.

That sort of thinking is what made communism a completely impractical system. It's also keeping many of the best and brightest away from public schools.

Ross33
10/31/2007, 12:42 PM
IOW, we need to give raises to the slugs before we think about rewarding the good ones.
* * *
It's also keeping many of the best and brightest away from public schools.

Yep, that's exactly why I'm no longer a school teacher. I refused to do a good job and be paid less than the slugs, simply because they'd been there longer.

sooner_born_1960
10/31/2007, 12:45 PM
Yep, that's exactly why I'm no longer a school teacher. I refused to do a good job and be paid less than the slugs, simply because they'd been there longer.
A good lesson for all you fresh college grads. If you're making less than the people that have been there a while, quit.

mdklatt
10/31/2007, 12:47 PM
I also love the specious argument they make here in OK that they can't support merit pay increases for teachers until OK pays all its teachers the national average. IOW, we need to give raises to the slugs before we think about rewarding the good ones.


Futhermore, why the obsession with the national average? Everything else in this state is below average, so why should teacher pay be any different?

Pricetag
10/31/2007, 01:36 PM
A good lesson for all you fresh college grads. If you're making less than the people that have been there a while, quit.
What, you didn't get the memo? Public schools are the only place where people who have been there longer tend to make more money, regardless of job performance.

Ross33
10/31/2007, 01:40 PM
A good lesson for all you fresh college grads. If you're making less than the people that have been there a while, quit.

A fine job of criticizing a comment I didn't make.

I had no problem with being paid less than more experienced teachers that did a good job. I did (and do) have a problem with being paid solely upon my number of years in the system. My performance, good or bad, had no effect on how I was paid.

John Kochtoston
10/31/2007, 03:13 PM
Edison
Union (not TPS, of course, but still in Tulsa)

I was a little surprised that Memorial was on there given that it's not exactly a low income area.

I think Edison is a magnet school now as well, similar to BTW.

Memorial's been all downhill since I left, anyway. :D

OklahomaTuba
10/31/2007, 03:14 PM
Well, well well, another feather in Tulsa's hat.

And people wonder why the Tulsa burbs are booming while the City of Tulsa rots at its core.

Screw the river tax, the glitzy new city hall, or iconic "one of a kind in the world" arena with used seats and a jail house view.

What Tulsa needs is very simple. Better schools, better roads and lower crime. Fix those things and maybe, just maybe, Tulsa won't be a subarb of Broken Arrow, Owasso, Jenks & Bixby in 10 years.

OklahomaTuba
10/31/2007, 03:16 PM
I also love the specious argument they make here in OK that they can't support merit pay increases for teachers until OK pays all its teachers the national average. IOW, we need to give raises to the slugs before we think about rewarding the good ones.

That sort of thinking is what made communism a completely impractical system. It's also keeping many of the best and brightest away from public schools.

Amen.

TPS should be replaced with a charter school system at this point.

OUDoc
10/31/2007, 03:23 PM
TPS should be replaced with a charter school system at this point.
And you need to include a cover sheet with those reports. I'll re-send you the memo.

Scott D
10/31/2007, 03:40 PM
Well, well well, another feather in Tulsa's hat.

And people wonder why the Tulsa burbs are booming while the City of Tulsa rots at its core.

Screw the river tax, the glitzy new city hall, or iconic "one of a kind in the world" arena with used seats and a jail house view.

What Tulsa needs is very simple. Better schools, better roads and lower crime. Fix those things and maybe, just maybe, Tulsa won't be a subarb of Broken Arrow, Owasso, Jenks & Bixby in 10 years.

you could almost put any city in there in the place of Tulsa and the statement would probably be about the same. Ironically, you're also stating where the "money" is in the area as well. The fact that things are better in the burbs in regards to pretty much every facet is a reflection of that.

JohnnyMack
10/31/2007, 03:43 PM
Is there a Tulsa HS that isn't on the list not named BTW?

Hail! Hail to Edison! Our famous Edison!

OklahomaTuba
10/31/2007, 03:59 PM
you could almost put any city in there in the place of Tulsa and the statement would probably be about the same. Ironically, you're also stating where the "money" is in the area as well. The fact that things are better in the burbs in regards to pretty much every facet is a reflection of that.

I wouldn't say schools in Tulsa such as Memorial are not in "money" areas.

Its a problem that goes well beyond the money.

PhxSooner
10/31/2007, 06:18 PM
Back in the dark ages of the late 80s, Memorial was a good school (because of me, naturally). I know that it's been having problems for a while.

We had the same report say similar stuff about a lot of high schools in parts of the Valley, and the Superintendent of Public Schools said the same thing as Sandy Garrett about methodology and such.

Harry Beanbag
10/31/2007, 06:51 PM
PC West used to be a good school when I was growing up in Oklahoma. What happened to it? The rest of the list is really no surprise at all.

And just out of curiosity, what is the average pay for a teacher in Oklahoma?

critical_phil
10/31/2007, 07:06 PM
I blame the culcha that values ... p***y .... more than education and reponsibility.



i, for one, welcome our new p***y overlords.

Widescreen
10/31/2007, 07:16 PM
Back in the dark ages of the late 80s, Memorial was a good school (because of me, naturally). I know that it's been having problems for a while.

We had the same report say similar stuff about a lot of high schools in parts of the Valley, and the Superintendent of Public Schools said the same thing as Sandy Garrett about methodology and such.
My sister was a counselor at Memorial at about that time. It wasn't that good.

CORNholio
10/31/2007, 07:30 PM
And just out of curiosity, what is the average pay for a teacher in Oklahoma?

http://sde.state.ok.us/pro/salary.html

bluedogok
10/31/2007, 09:42 PM
PC West used to be a good school when I was growing up in Oklahoma. What happened to it?
85sooner and I graduated from there in 82 and it was a much different school back then than it is now. The areas feeding into it have changed dramitically since then. It changed a lot from the time we graduated to the time that my sister did in 1994 and has changed even more since she graduated. My sister is an elementary teacher in the PC district and one that feeds into West, her school area has no apartments and is in a still pretty decent area of Bethany/OKC and is one of the higher rated schools in the district. Mostly a stable student population with active parents which isn't the case in many of the elementray schools.

Student-wise she said West is now divided into thirds, 1/3 Caucasian, 1/3 Black and 1/3 Hispanic with many ESL students. Having a large number of ESL students always brings down the test scores. Some schools suffer from the population coming into them and will always be considered "underperforming" under the standard criteria because the stufents don't fit into the standard criteria.

SicEmBaylor
10/31/2007, 11:11 PM
i, for one, welcome our new p***y overlords.
I'll relay your obedience to the council.

Tulsa_Fireman
11/1/2007, 12:20 AM
BTW, WTF is the Tecumseh Juvenile Center on there? Can a kid in correctional school drop-out? What if he gets paroled? Hmmm?


L.E. Rader Center, Sand Springs

Same here, and right in my backyard.

Hell, Rader is an outright juvenile prison. Twenty foot doubled fences, concertina wire, everything but gun towers. If kids are dropping out of Rader, I need to personally check the perimeter.

Tulsa_Fireman
11/1/2007, 12:23 AM
And SECONDLY...

How many times do we have to be reminded how Oklahoma schools suck the big fat one before we stop re-electing Sandy Garrett?

Okla-homey
11/1/2007, 05:37 AM
And SECONDLY...

How many times do we have to be reminded how Oklahoma schools suck the big fat one before we stop re-electing Sandy Garrett?

Silly wabbit, Sandy Garrett is appointed by the OEA (a/k/a the teachers union.) The election is just for show.

Further, I don't think all Oklahoma schools succ. It's mostly just the urban ones in the big ISD's. Those tend to be the ones with the crappiest credentialled personnel, mostly because its the only gig those losers can get. I submit if we had merit pay and supportive administration at those schools, we might entice some fireballs to give those places a shot. Heck, it sure couldn't make them any worse.

Scott D
11/1/2007, 01:44 PM
Out of curiosity Homey, how many schools on the national list are closely situated to Military Installations.

Stoop Dawg
11/1/2007, 03:31 PM
We just watched "Freedom Writers" last night, a movie about how some 1st year teacher changed the lives of a class of under-performing students in LA in the 90s.

While the story was touching, and I commend someone who cares about the students, I couldn't help thinking "Is this what our schools are for?" the whole time.

Someone needs to reach out to these kids. Public schools should encourage kids, but I can't get behind the idea that it's the government's job to effectively raise them.

Harry Beanbag
11/1/2007, 04:16 PM
17% of schools in Arizona made the drop-out factory list.

Okla-homey
11/1/2007, 05:51 PM
Out of curiosity Homey, how many schools on the national list are closely situated to Military Installations.

I haven't seen the list, however, worth noting right here in OK, no Lawton, Enid or Midwest City HS's on the list. Hmmm. I dunno, let me guess...b/c GI parents give a dang? Or perhaps its cuz they have lots of military and ex-military spouses and retirees on the faculties. I bet it's some of both.

Scott D
11/2/2007, 12:13 PM
I haven't seen the list, however, worth noting right here in OK, no Lawton, Enid or Midwest City HS's on the list. Hmmm. I dunno, let me guess...b/c GI parents give a dang? Or perhaps its cuz they have lots of military and ex-military spouses and retirees on the faculties. I bet it's some of both.

Actually the parenting issue wasn't the reason I asked the question. It was more along the lines of questioning the criteria used. Whether or not the legitimacy of the information was as flawed as the "Graduation Rates" the NCAA uses to praise or penalize Universities.