Messicans headed out of Oklahoma

[Okla-homey]

reportedly in droves. They are reportedly worried about the effect of the new OK statute which goes into force on Nov. 1.

We shall see. Frankly, I have two data points to share.

1) Mrs Homey reports for the first time in anyone's recent memory, they have no hispanic newborns in her nursery/NICU at work. The norm is several.

2) At the QT (101st and S. Memorial) where I tank up on java and a brefus sammich each a.m., there are normally at least ten messican customers present. Lately, its down to just one or two.

Your thoughts?

:pop:

Here's the TW story:

Law cited in reverse migration

By ALEXIS CHARBONNIER World Correspondent
10/28/2007

Uncertain what might happen, many illegal immigrants are leaving the state for Mexico.

CASA BLANCA, Mexico -- If Oklahoma's House Bill 1804 is supposed to force people to leave the state and return to Mexico, it's working.

The law goes into effect Thursday, but it is already causing a reverse migration of illegal immigrants -- and their U.S. citizen children -- to Casa Blanca, a north-central Mexican town that has long supplied hundreds of illegal immigrants to Tulsa.

''You don't hear people talking about anything else here,'' said Lilia Esparza, who has been the town nurse since 1986. ''Everywhere I hear the phrase 'they're coming back!' ''

The Tulsa World revealed the Casa Blanca pipeline in a 2006 series of stories, which showed some 3,000 Tulsa workers, mostly illegal, had ties to the area.

Now, facing fears of lost jobs, homes and children in the United States, the tide is flowing back.

Esparza's statistics show that 49 families and 88 other U.S.-born children returned to Casa Blanca in the month of September alone.

Whether that trend will continue after the law goes into effect is an open question, especially if there isn't a harsh police enforcement effort.

Those returning home face a bleak scenario: camping out in Tulsa-bought trucks or crumbling, burglarized adobe homes this winter, huddling around campfires in a lawless small town on the frigid Mexican highlands.

The Oklahoma law makes it illegal to knowingly transport illegal immigrants, and it throws up state barriers to hiring of illegal immigrants.

It also requires employers seeking state contracts to use the federal status verification system for its employees and requires identification and proof of citizenship before people can receive certain benefits.

But, to the people of Casa Blanca, the consequences are starker.

''People said, 'What if we just get deported without warning? Will the kids stay behind?' '' Esparza said. ''There were rumors of massive, forced adoptions. They thought even newborns would be taken away.

''In September, the rumor was that immigration officers would be coming into the classrooms in Tulsa, which is why so many young kids were sent back to Mexico,'' Esparza said.

Esparza said a woman came into the clinic recently in Casa Blanca. She had gotten pregnant in Tulsa, but decided to come home to Mexico to give birth because she was afraid her baby would be taken from her in the hospital.

Juan Becerra, 40, a farmer in Mexico, lived in Tulsa for seven years before returning in early October. Becerra laid water mains, built sewers, roads and sidewalks for a contractor, making $12 an hour.

''Rumors are running that they're going to start picking people up before Nov. 1, and on Nov. 2, they're going to pick up anyone they see walking around,'' Becerra said.

Fatima Soriano, a 24-year-old medical school resident serving the town, said although many parents of the children sent home to Casa Blanca are going to try to stay in Tulsa until they're deported, many workers expect to be laid off on Oct. 31, accelerating the return to Mexico.

Laying low in Tulsa: While Tulsans with U.S. citizen and permanent resident status will most likely stay put, those without legal documents have three options. The first is staying in Tulsa and adopting a wait-and-see attitude.

Antonio Barrera, 24, worked in construction in Tulsa for $13 an hour, helping to build St. Francis Heart Hospital. He returned home in early October.

''Most of them are going to chance it and stay in Tulsa to save their houses and trucks,'' Barrera said.

''They're more discreet,'' Becerra said. ''It's not like it used to be: drinking, shouting and gunshots. People are saying, 'I'll drink at home from now on.'

''The streets are deserted now. On Fridays, Mexicans just load up the car with groceries and go home.''

Moving east: The second option for illegal immigrants in Tulsa is to move on to another state with more lenient immigration laws.

Arkansas is the most frequently mentioned destination.

''It's safer there, and there's lots of work,'' said Becerra, who said that if he were to go back to the United States, he'd go to Arkansas.

''Lots of people are planning on moving there,'' he said.

Chicago, Dallas and Denver were other destinations mentioned, as many immigrants have family members in those cities.

Going home: Gustavo Bernal, 60, the mayor of Casa Blanca and a retired elementary-school teacher, described the return to Casa Blanca as ''a forced, panicked retreat.''

He said about 500 more people are expected to come home, putting an enormous strain on local services.

Tulsa residents are sending home whatever they own, mostly furniture and major appliances.

About 20 such trips have already made it to Casa Blanca, Bernal said.

Filled to the brim, these pickups and trailers are driven by people who hold visas. Casa Blancans in Tulsan who own two trucks are sending one home now and keeping the other for the return home.

Dr. Soriano has seen the signs of this phenomenon. Many people have come to her for medicine because they're going back north, not to immigrate, but to bring more truckloads of belongings back, she said.

Maria Elena Gaytan, 37, is a shopkeeper in Casa Blanca. Her brothers have been in Tulsa for seven years, and they're among the ones returning.

''People are coming back who lived in Tulsa for seven to 10 years,'' Gaytan said. ''They had kids, houses and belongings up there.

''They're coming back home with whatever they can salvage.''

Esparza said many of those returning are young families who had left for Tulsa in the last six years.

''They're sending home the kids, the ones that were raised in Tulsa. The American Dream fizzled out for them. They hadn't planned on coming back, but they were just so afraid.''

Reversing the trend: Cristian Becerra Bernal, 15, is a high school student in nearby Zacatecas. He's one of the potential migrants thinking twice about heading to Oklahoma.

''I wanted to go to Tulsa, but I don't want to anymore,'' he said. ''If I go, I'll get caught. I might go to a different place in the U.S. This has been all over the TV, and nobody wants to go north now.''

Mayor Bernal said: ''About 50 families a month are coming back. The tide has turned. Before, nobody was coming home.''

[SicEmBaylor]

Good.
Riddance.

[King Crimson]

i have a lot of friends who are "messicans". good people.

loyal as the day is long, generous, they work hard, committed to family and don't drink Zima.

[Jimminy Crimson]

Thank you, Randy Terrill!

[Mongo]

The Okie meth laws and now the new illegal immigrants laws have cleaned up this state and caused other states deal with our old problems. Best they adopt the same programs.

SanJoaquinSooner in 5,4,3.....

[Tulsa_Fireman]

''They're more discreet,'' Becerra said. ''It's not like it used to be: drinking, shouting and gunshots. People are saying, 'I'll drink at home from now on.'

''The streets are deserted now. On Fridays, Mexicans just load up the car with groceries and go home.''

God f*%$ing forbid THAT.

Maybe I won't have to spend my time patching up so many bullet-ridden bodies now.

Am I the only one that got the gist that the article was pulling for a heartstring or two? Those poor illegal folks having to rip up their children after seven to ten years in Tulsa to haul theirselves back to Mexico? That same article that mentions how to save their houses and trucks in the Tulsa area, illegals are going to have to be discreet, buy groceries, and go home for the evening instead of drinking and carousing on the streets shooting up our blessed Tulsa?

Give me a damned break, Tulsa World.

[KABOOKIE]

Hey Homey,
Check out the area around 21st Street and Garnett. If that place is void of messicans I'll believe it.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Check out the area around 21st Street and Garnett. If that place is void of messicans I'll believe it.

Slowly but surely.

Kicker is, in my personal experience so far since the passage of the bill, there's more hit-and-run action, less hispanic serving business, and thankfully, fewer dead or dying hispanic bodies from lead poisoning in the area.

[StoopTroup]

I love American Mexicans who hold jobs like we do and are here to live the American Dream that many an American has defend this Country so we have the right to be free and live our lives.

Being of Irish decent...I welcome all who come here to continue to make this a great Country. I also welcome those who seek refuge from oppression and slaughter. May they get a chance to live safe and one day return to their homeland and teach their Countrymen the better ways of life.

None of this can happen without America remaining a free society that welcomes people of all race and creed.

We need to focus on the people who are trying to live here legally and assist them. The ones who are here to bilk the system and live like the sourge of the Earth, avoid paying taxes ect... They better get it together quick if they want to stay.

[Curly Bill]

Kudos to the great state of Oklahoma for taking a strong stance against illegal immigration. If the rest of the nation would do the same we'd be better off, and by the rest of the nation I mean the individual states, because God knows the US Congress isn't going to do a d**n thing.

[MextheBulldog]

This thread is worthless without pics.

[rufnek05]

crap. now who is going to build my deck.

[SleestakSooner]

Gustavo Bernal, 60, the mayor of Casa Blanca and a retired elementary-school teacher, described the return to Casa Blanca as ''a forced, panicked retreat.''

He said about 500 more people are expected to come home, putting an enormous strain on local services.

Better your people strain your local economy than ours. What are we supposed to do, allow all immigrants to suck our resources dry while they try to build up their own?

What burns my *** is to see that some of these people were earning nearly double the minimum wage while plenty of able bodied americans are left w/o jobs due to the fact that they would have to be offered benefits and employment protection.

The unscrupulous employers are the ones to blame for this fiasco and I personally hope that all contractors who have been predominately using illegals will soon be out of business.

[SoonerStormchaser]

You're sending them down here aren't you? ;)

[JohnnyMack]

I live in a neighborhood that is half new houses, half houses under construction. I have 4 houses directly across the street from me that are under construction right now in fact. Usually the jobsites are filled with workrers. The last handful of days have been eerily quiet.

[badger]

God f*%$ing forbid THAT.

Maybe I won't have to spend my time patching up so many bullet-ridden bodies now.

Am I the only one that got the gist that the article was pulling for a heartstring or two? Those poor illegal folks having to rip up their children after seven to ten years in Tulsa to haul theirselves back to Mexico? That same article that mentions how to save their houses and trucks in the Tulsa area, illegals are going to have to be discreet, buy groceries, and go home for the evening instead of drinking and carousing on the streets shooting up our blessed Tulsa?

Give me a damned break, Tulsa World.
Feel how you want, these testimonies are proof that HB 1804 has had an effect, which up until now, people weren't sure the law would have an effect. After all, they broke the law once to enter the country, who said they would fear the law now?

[rufnek05]

could this be why?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o4vnqvbsV44

[Jerk]

Well......... bye.

http://www.theboxset.com/images/reviewcaptures/612capture_tombstone03.jpg

[Curly Bill]

Well......... bye.

http://www.theboxset.com/images/reviewcaptures/612capture_tombstone03.jpg

Hot dang...that's me...Curly Bill :D

[bluedogok]

The Okie meth laws and now the new illegal immigrants laws have cleaned up this state and caused other states deal with our old problems. Best they adopt the same programs.

SanJoaquinSooner in 5,4,3.....
In the case of meth laws it has had a different effect, after the rest of the surrounding states passed laws similar to the OK law it has moved meth production from the small local dealer making his own to cartel factories just across the border into Mexico where they are making stronger meth in mass quantities. Kinda of a bad with the good kind of thing.

[Mongo]

In the case of meth laws it has had a different effect, after the rest of the surrounding states passed laws similar to the OK law it has moved meth production from the small local dealer making his own to cartel factories just across the border into Mexico where they are making stronger meth in mass quantities. Kinda of a bad with the good kind of thing.


I dont care where its made, just as long as I get my fix:D

I was just using it as an example of displacement. We run off homeless people, they end up going elsewhere. The problem doesnt go away, it just moves and becomes someone else's problem

[bluedogok]

I know, it can sometimes just create a different, bigger problem.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

As I understand it(without thoroughly checking it out) the state legislature here in AZ has tried to enact similar laws to what Oklahoma has passed, but our Governator, (dammit)Janet Napolitano has refused to sign them into law. So, we continue receiving hordes of illegals, and many commit heinous (cop-killing, for example) crimes. Our local red rag, the Arizona Republic, does everything they can to ignore and/or pooh-pooh the problems caused by illegals, or actually champion their behaviour.

[Okla-homey]

I dont care where its made, just as long as I get my fix:D

I was just using it as an example of displacement. We run off homeless people, they end up going elsewhere. The problem doesnt go away, it just moves and becomes someone else's problem

Your observation on the advantage of federalism and the state's right to pass laws and be governed by them is an apt one.

That said, while we'll always have the homeless because new ones are constantly being made, if we runnoft the illegal messicans, the problem will be rectified because we don't make new illegal messicans here in Oklahoma.;)

I'm just not sure the OK statute will hold up in federal court because the Constitution expressly states federal law controls the field of immigration law.
Thus, if the right case is brought in federal court in Tulsa, OKC or Muskogee, the state may get a big fat federal injunction dropped in its lap barring enforcment of the new state law.

[Mongo]

Your observation on the advantage of federalism and the state's right to pass laws and be governed by them is an apt one.

That said, while we'll always have the homeless because new ones are constantly being made, if we runnoft the illegal messicans, the problem will be rectified because we don't make new illegal messicans here in Oklahoma.;)

I'm just not sure the OK statute will hold up in federal court because the Constitution expressly states federal law controls the field of immigration law.
Thus, if the right case is brought in federal court in Tulsa, OKC or Muskogee, the state may get a big fat federal injunction dropped in its lap barring enforcment of the new state law.

It is sad that the States are having to pass laws over a Federal issue, but I guess local legislatures are tired of the ***** footin' going on and doing it themselves.

Maybe then the Fed will actually enforce the laws already on the books

[Okla-homey]

It is sad that the States are having to pass laws over a Federal issue, but I guess local legislatures are tired of the ***** footin' going on and doing it themselves.

Maybe then the Fed will actually enforce the laws already on the books

I agree. Methinks the donks in Congress are reluctant to do anything substantive about the problem b/c they fancy America's largest minority as a potential base of support.

If the donks ever manage to lock-up the hispanic vote like they have the black vote, it's lights out for the elephants.

[Sooner_Havok]

I agree. Methinks the donks in Congress are reluctant to do anything substantive about the problem b/c they fancy America's largest minority as a potential base of support.

If the donks ever manage to lock-up the hispanic vote like they have the black vote, it's lights out for the elephants.

Well, They still can't vote, so we are safe till their kids turn 18, right???? :confused:

[JohnnyMack]

I say we have a "Tulsa Area Peeps" lunch on Nov. 1st at one of our many local Mexican restaurants. Curious to see just how skittish the employees are.

[FaninAma]

Your observation on the advantage of federalism and the state's right to pass laws and be governed by them is an apt one.

That said, while we'll always have the homeless because new ones are constantly being made, if we runnoft the illegal messicans, the problem will be rectified because we don't make new illegal messicans here in Oklahoma.;)

I'm just not sure the OK statute will hold up in federal court because the Constitution expressly states federal law controls the field of immigration law.
Thus, if the right case is brought in federal court in Tulsa, OKC or Muskogee, the state may get a big fat federal injunction dropped in its lap barring enforcment of the new state law.

I don't see how the Feds can stop a state from doing what they themselves are failing to do. And the Constitution also says the Federal government should protect the borders, something at which the Feds are failing miserably. So perhaps the Federal government should file an injunction against itself since it is acting Unconstitutionally.

[Mongo]

"Homeland Security strikes deal with New York on driver's licenses"

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--immigrantdrivers1027oct27,0,674004,print.story

It is not just the Donks. There shouldnt even be a question over giving any illegal any sort of priveledge, yet Homeland security is allowing this to happen.

[Okla-homey]

Well, They still can't vote, so we are safe till their kids turn 18, right???? :confused:

No, but I'll bet you a pinata filled with fun-size Snickers most hispanic citizens/voters are watching which party treats their newly arrived cousins the best. At the end of the day, it'll be spun as a race thing.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

...If the rest of the nation would do the same we'd be better off, and by the rest of the nation I mean the individual states, because God knows the US Congress isn't going to do a d**n thing.

The Federal Gov't is most certainly responsible for having such dysfunctional immigration policies which surely have led to this huge black market of labor. Five percent of the U.S. workforce are illegally present.

Several times congress failed to reform the archaic worker visa laws. It is ridiculous that employers should have to provide transportation, housing, and 3 meals or a kitchen under the H2-A worker visa program.

It was inevitable that states, like Oklahoma, would start dealing with immigration problems when congress failed to act repeatedly. The problem, is that states are limited. They cannot issue guest worker visas on their own. Perhaps Oklahoma does not need a larger pool of labor. Other states surely do. For example, with its agricultural industry (88,000 farms) - and a huge tourist/hotel/restaurant industry, California's powerful economic engine depends are having a sufficiently large labor pool. Tourism is America's largest export (largest amount of foreign money brought in by any industry).


Perhaps it will be similar to back in the late 50s when Oklahoma was a dry state. The gov and attorney general started enforcing the law and that led to the law being changed.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I don't see how the Feds can stop a state from doing what they themselves are failing to do. And the Constitution also says the Federal government should protect the borders, something at which the Feds are failing miserably. So perhaps the Federal government should file an injunction against itself since it is acting Unconstitutionally.What he said...

[yermom]

is 500 people or 50 a month really that many people?

[Okla-homey]

is 500 people or 50 a month really that many people?

First Rule of journalism: DO NOT let the facts get in the way of good hyperbole.

Second Rule of Journalism: Do not talk about Rule #1.:D

[SoonerKnight]

It is not illegal for a state to make employers check to make sure that those working are legal. It is not illegal to have the employers lose their ability to conduct business in that state if they hire illegals. In the 90's California enacted a law that prevented children of illegals from getting an education or medical care. (if the children were not citizens) The law was tossed out as unconstitutional. This law I think will stand because it will punish the employers not the illegals. :)

[Okla-homey]

Perhaps Oklahoma does not need a larger pool of labor. Other states surely do. For example, with its agricultural industry (88,000 farms) - and a huge tourist/hotel/restaurant industry, California's powerful economic engine depends are having a sufficiently large labor pool. Tourism is America's largest export (largest amount of foreign money brought in by any industry).


Perhaps it will be similar to back in the late 50s when Oklahoma was a dry state. The gov and attorney general started enforcing the law and that led to the law being changed.

This is not new. We've always needed a large permanent underclass to do our dirty work. Be they slaves, Irish, Italian, Chinese, etc. It just so happens that now, our amigos to the south who constitute the drone-class aren't allowed here legally.

The only practical solution I can think of lies in the area of letting them work, but taxing their earnings just like everyone else, maybe even at a higher rate. That way, at least they're helping pay for the infrastructure they are burdening with their presence.

[Okla-homey]

It is not illegal for a state to make employers check to make sure that those working are legal. It is not illegal to have the employers lose their ability to conduct business in that state if they hire illegals.

These things in the new OK law may be considered by the courts to be the exclusive prerogative of the feds. IOW, the state may be precluded from enforcing such measures. Think about it. What if Oklahoma passed a law that said no one who is discovered cheating on their federal income taxes may run a business in Oklahoma? Would that be allowed to stand? I doubt it.

Look, I'm not saying the statute is going down for sure. Just saying if a group of plaintiffs craft an argument that solidly and persuasively portrays Oklahoma as stepping in and stepping on the fed's toes, the law will go down because ordinarily, states are pre-empted from playing a role in federal law enforcement. Especially in an area that the courts have repeatedly held is the exclusive province of the federal gov't under our constitution.

[CORNholio]

Live and let live. If they're not the gun-toting, shoot-em-up, give-me-a-free-ride, kinda immigrants then I say let them stay, hell same goes for us. We all came from immigrants at one point. If some dude wants to crawl across a desert in 104 degree heat for three days and then hitch a ride up to Tulsa just to sweat his balls off some more to make a whopping 12 dollars an hour to live his dream of buying a 30,000 dollar house and buying a mid-90's red and green S-10 then, congratulations. I wish more Americans had that kinda work ethic and gumption. The only real problem is when this guy sends for his family and his "wanna-be-tony-montana" cousins shows up and starts his reign of petty terror.

[CORNholio]

I say let them stay, but make the punishment for crimes committed by immigrants much more severe to weed out the "tony montana's".

[SoonerBOI]

What is a practical solution to this crisis?

[sooneron]

i have a lot of friends who are "messicans". good people.

loyal as the day is long, generous, they work hard, committed to family and don't drink Zima.
You lost sic'em at generous and hard working.:texan:

[SleestakSooner]

You lost sic'em at generous and hard working.:texan:

What do you mean? he generously handed over his balls to EX-g/f and has been working oh so hard to let us all know his lameness :D

[SanJoaquinSooner]

What is a practical solution to this crisis?

Guest worker visa reform. The h2A and h2B worker visa regulations/limitations, in part, are what drove labor into the black market.

[SicEmBaylor]

I'm an illegal mexican?

[Mixer!]

I'm an illegal alien?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMgzHTf37-U

[Lott's Bandana]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMgzHTf37-U


Horrors! How did we ever survive the '80's??


Was Peter Gabriel deported?








.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Hope Texas takes a cue and passes similar laws. Not a chance though with the liberal sanctuary people here...

[Stoop Dawg]

Gustavo Bernal, 60, the mayor of Casa Blanca and a retired elementary-school teacher, described the return to Casa Blanca as ''a forced, panicked retreat.''

He said about 500 more people are expected to come home, putting an enormous strain on local services.

How can these honest, hard-working individuals be a strain on local resources? I'm sure it will be quite the opposite, they'll likely give the local economy a much needed boost. Right?



Tulsa residents are sending home whatever they own, mostly furniture and major appliances.

About 20 such trips have already made it to Casa Blanca, Bernal said.

Filled to the brim, these pickups and trailers are driven by people who hold visas. Casa Blancans in Tulsan who own two trucks are sending one home now and keeping the other for the return home.

Dr. Soriano has seen the signs of this phenomenon. Many people have come to her for medicine because they're going back north, not to immigrate, but to bring more truckloads of belongings back, she said.

Maria Elena Gaytan, 37, is a shopkeeper in Casa Blanca. Her brothers have been in Tulsa for seven years, and they're among the ones returning.

''People are coming back who lived in Tulsa for seven to 10 years,'' Gaytan said. ''They had kids, houses and belongings up there.

''They're coming back home with whatever they can salvage.''

Esparza said many of those returning are young families who had left for Tulsa in the last six years.

''They're sending home the kids, the ones that were raised in Tulsa. The American Dream fizzled out for them. They hadn't planned on coming back, but they were just so afraid.''

Reversing the trend: Cristian Becerra Bernal, 15, is a high school student in nearby Zacatecas. He's one of the potential migrants thinking twice about heading to Oklahoma.

''I wanted to go to Tulsa, but I don't want to anymore,'' he said. ''If I go, I'll get caught. I might go to a different place in the U.S. This has been all over the TV, and nobody wants to go north now.''

Mayor Bernal said: ''About 50 families a month are coming back. The tide has turned. Before, nobody was coming home.''

I guess we all agree that Mexico is their home, not Tulsa.

Go back home.

[JohnnyMack]

Construction update.

Once again I have 4 houses in varying stages of completion across the street from me. Yesterday no one showed to any of them except for a guy (white) who brought in a load of top soil and another guy (white) who drove around the little miniature front loader to spread all the dirt around.

Then last night (around 7) a few guys (messicans from what I could tell) showed up and hung sheet rock in one of the houses for a few hours in the dark with only one little light to guide them.

This morning they were pouring the driveway at a house, but what is usually a contingent of 6 or 8 messicans was 3 white d00ds.

[achiro]

Guest worker visa reform. The h2A and h2B worker visa regulations/limitations, in part, are what drove labor into the black market.
This is what ****es me off about the whole situation. Everyone has politicised this subject so much with the 'secure our borders" "save jobs for Americans" and other goofy topics instead of what it really is. Just issue work visas for these folks allowing them to be here legally, tax them, and otherwise treat them as travellers from another country. They can live here, work here, etc unless they screw up...and I mean the slightest speeding ticket type screw up, no mercy on that, then they lose their work visa and are sent home(or jail if thats whats needed)

[Okieflyer]

See you back when you get legal.

Or the Federal Government has it's way.


http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&d=20071101&t=2&i=2092514&w=&r=2007-11-01T153931Z_01_N01184997_RTRUKOP_0_PICTURE0

[Stoop Dawg]

I guess we all agree that Mexico is their home, not Tulsa.

Go back home.

Got some gray spek for this - I can only assume it's "n00b neg".

Let me clarify, if I may....


This is what ****es me off about the whole situation. Everyone has politicised this subject so much with the 'secure our borders" "save jobs for Americans" and other goofy topics instead of what it really is. Just issue work visas for these folks allowing them to be here legally, tax them, and otherwise treat them as travellers from another country. They can live here, work here, etc unless they screw up...and I mean the slightest speeding ticket type screw up, no mercy on that, then they lose their work visa and are sent home(or jail if thats whats needed)

Exactly!

The fact that people from Mexico want to move to the US is not a problem at all, IMO. The fact that they do it ILLEGALLY is a problem - a big one. I think it should be easier for them to get a temporary work visa, and to renew that work visa, while they work on getting citizenship.

However, I also like Australia's policy of "no dual citizens". If you want to be a US citizen, renounce your other citizenship(s) and be an American. This whole "I'm gonna live and work in the US and send money back home" thing kinda sticks in my craw.

[Jerk]

Construction update.

Once again I have 4 houses in varying stages of completion across the street from me. Yesterday no one showed to any of them except for a guy (white) who brought in a load of top soil and another guy (white) who drove around the little miniature front loader to spread all the dirt around.

Then last night (around 7) a few guys (messicans from what I could tell) showed up and hung sheet rock in one of the houses for a few hours in the dark with only one little light to guide them.

This morning they were pouring the driveway at a house, but what is usually a contingent of 6 or 8 messicans was 3 white d00ds.

heh. I work for a ready-mix concrete company and we aren't doing sh*t.

Time to go into the oilfield :texan:

[SanJoaquinSooner]

This is not new. We've always needed a large permanent underclass to do our dirty work. Be they slaves, Irish, Italian, Chinese, etc. It just so happens that now, our amigos to the south who constitute the drone-class aren't allowed here legally.

The only practical solution I can think of lies in the area of letting them work, but taxing their earnings just like everyone else, maybe even at a higher rate. That way, at least they're helping pay for the infrastructure they are burdening with their presence.

I agree, except for the "permanent" reference. The irony of the 1987 RICA immigration reform, was that there were complaints that too many became upwardly mobile - quickly rising to middle class status.

Living in the heart of California agriculture country, I see it everywhere: middle class Latinos who started out in the fields.

Upward mobility is the great thing about America.

I ask you fellow Sooners to please stop slurring your spelling of Mexicans...."Messicans." Thanks.

[Jimminy Crimson]

:les:NO WAY, JOSE!!!1!!!!!!11!

[Okla-homey]

I agree, except for the "permanent" reference. The irony of the 1987 RICA immigration reform, was that there were complaints that too many became upwardly mobile - quickly rising to middle class status.

Living in the heart of California agriculture country, I see it everywhere: middle class Latinos who started out in the fields.

Upward mobility is the great thing about America.

I ask you fellow Sooners to please stop slurring your spelling of Mexicans...."Messicans." Thanks.

These assertions about class are based on historical facts. Yes, there is a high degree of potential upward mobility here unlike most places in the world. That mobility however, is based on some other group arriving to do the dirty work. We must have an underclass for our society and economy to function properly. Those middle-class messicans you cite were generally able to rise from the fields because there were new arrivals, perhaps even from points further south, to take their places.

This is not new. For example, the "filthy irish" were able to rise from the gutter because there were eyetalians and eastern Europeans who followed the great mid-nineteenth century wave of mick immigrations to this country.

As an aside, another thing that is key to that climb out of the bean field is acceptance of prevailing social norms and English fluency. IOW, the irish couldn't insist on retaining their gaelic language and bog-trotting ways in their public lives if they wanted to rise. They had to become "Americanized."

I submit that's still true. Ideally, this country has to be a "melting pot," NOT a "tossed salad" made up of a bunch of groups who remain profoundly culturally distinct. Unfortunately, this notion of "melting pot" is no longer PC. Nevertheless, it's is still the route to everyone getting along. The "tossed salad" approach leads to dysfunctional "balkanization" and disordered chaos.

[OklahomaTuba]

This law sounds like it is working very well.

Glad to see Oklahoma doing the right thing by enforcing the law!!!

Next we gotta take care of those hoser bastards.

[JohnnyMack]

These assertions about class are based on historical facts. Yes, there is a high degree of potential upward mobility here unlike most places in the world. That mobility however, is based on some other group arriving to do the dirty work. We must have an underclass for our society and economy to function properly. Those middle-class messicans you cite were generally able to rise from the fields because there were new arrivals, perhaps even from points further south, to take their places.

This is not new. For example, the "filthy irish" were able to rise from the gutter because there were eyetalians and eastern Europeans who followed the great mid-nineteenth century wave of mick immigrations to this country.

As an aside, another thing that is key to that climb out of the bean field is acceptance of prevailing social norms and English fluency. IOW, the irish couldn't insist on retaining their gaelic language and bog-trotting ways in their public lives if they wanted to rise. They had to become "Americanized."

I submit that's still true. Ideally, this country has to be a "melting pot," NOT a "tossed salad" made up of a bunch of groups who remain profoundly culturally distinct. Unfortunately, this notion of "melting pot" is no longer PC. Nevertheless, it's is still the route to everyone getting along. The "tossed salad" approach leads to dysfunctional "balkanization" and disordered chaos.

Nice post. Makes me think of my Grandmother born in Austria, pumped through Ellis Island and raised in a poor West Virginia town until she made the big time and became a waitress in a restaurant in Chicago. Worked her *** off for not much, but made sure she did everything she could to shake that Austrian accent.

And yeah, what the Messicans are going through now is what almost every ohter culture has gone through as they came to this country. I don't remember anyone trying to make Chinese an official language when they showed up though.

[Stoop Dawg]

I ask you fellow Sooners to please stop slurring your spelling of Mexicans...."Messicans." Thanks.

I ask the Mexicans living in the US to...

1. Go through legal channels for entry/working in the US
2. Pay taxes like the rest of us
3. Stop flying the flag of Mexico, you're in the US
4. Stop calling Mexico "home"
5. Start speaking the official language of the US

Thanks.

[Stoop Dawg]

As an aside, another thing that is key to that climb out of the bean field is acceptance of prevailing social norms and English fluency.

<Thread jack alert>

That's one of the things I don't "get" about the so-called "black culture". It seems they want to act & speak like "gangstas", then complain about not getting respect from society. You know what? You're not special! Everyone that acts outside the social norms lacks respect from society!!!

The other thing that I don't "get" is where this "black culture" comes from. The PC term is "African-American", yet they retain none of their African culture. This "gangsta" **** is made-up - it certainly didn't come from Africa.

We have travelled to Europe the last two summers. I was really, really worried about going to Paris because I thought they would treat me like ****. Turns out, they only treat "arrogant Americans who disrespect our country while demanding respect for themselves" like ****. Sound familiar? When we went to a restaurant and POLITELY told them that we don't speak French and ASKED if they would help us order in English, they were all very friendly about it. If we had gone in and DEMANDED that they give us a menu in English I think it would have been a very different experience.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

However, I also like Australia's policy of "no dual citizens". If you want to be a US citizen, renounce your other citizenship(s) and be an American. This whole "I'm gonna live and work in the US and send money back home" thing kinda sticks in my craw.

That'd be awesome. Nine kinds of awesome.

And that'd float like a turd in a punchbowl with the tribes.

[JohnnyMack]

We have travelled to Europe the last two summers. I was really, really worried about going to Paris because I thought they would treat me like ****. Turns out, they only treat "arrogant Americans who disrespect our country while demanding respect for themselves" like ****. Sound familiar? When we went to a restaurant and POLITELY told them that we don't speak French and ASKED if they would help us order in English, they were all very friendly about it. If we had gone in and DEMANDED that they give us a menu in English I think it would have been a very different experience.

Mirrors my experience almost exactly. We went to Paris with limited ability to speak French and always tried to speak French first and the person we were dealing with could tell we were American and would speak to us in English. They want you to at least try.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Did you ever jump up out of your chair waving your napkin as you shouted, "WE SURRENDER!"?

[Stoop Dawg]

Did you ever jump up out of your chair waving your napkin as you shouted, "WE SURRENDER!"?

No, we just visited France. We did not apply for citizenship. I think your white flag is delivered with your citizenship papers.

[Jimminy Crimson]

I wonder how many messicans have been rounded up since yesterday.

Hopefully a lot!

[85Sooner]

In the case of meth laws it has had a different effect, after the rest of the surrounding states passed laws similar to the OK law it has moved meth production from the small local dealer making his own to cartel factories just across the border into Mexico where they are making stronger meth in mass quantities. Kinda of a bad with the good kind of thing.


Adn you know this how;)

[85Sooner]

:les:NO WAY, JOSE!!!1!!!!!!11!


lol


The dog says........."get over it"

[Okla-homey]

That'd be awesome. Nine kinds of awesome.

And that'd float like a turd in a punchbowl with the tribes.

Why? In 1923 the United States Congress passed a law which made Indians US citizens. Before that, they weren't. The tribes didn't get a vote.;)

[Okla-homey]

<Thread jack alert>

That's one of the things I don't "get" about the so-called "black culture". It seems they want to act & speak like "gangstas", then complain about not getting respect from society. You know what? You're not special! Everyone that acts outside the social norms lacks respect from society!!!

The other thing that I don't "get" is where this "black culture" comes from. The PC term is "African-American", yet they retain none of their African culture. This "gangsta" **** is made-up - it certainly didn't come from Africa.



yep. I've heard the above characterized as "keeping it real." Chris Rock wisely adds "poor" at the end.;)

[yermom]

i thought it was "dumb" :D

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Why? In 1923 the United States Congress passed a law which made Indians US citizens. Before that, they weren't. The tribes didn't get a vote.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't tribal members considered as carrying dual citizenship given that their respective tribes are considered sovereign nations?

That's the way I've always understood it.

[bluedogok]

This is not new. For example, the "filthy irish" were able to rise from the gutter because there were eyetalians and eastern Europeans who followed the great mid-nineteenth century wave of mick immigrations to this country.

As an aside, another thing that is key to that climb out of the bean field is acceptance of prevailing social norms and English fluency. IOW, the irish couldn't insist on retaining their gaelic language and bog-trotting ways in their public lives if they wanted to rise. They had to become "Americanized."

I submit that's still true. Ideally, this country has to be a "melting pot," NOT a "tossed salad" made up of a bunch of groups who remain profoundly culturally distinct. Unfortunately, this notion of "melting pot" is no longer PC. Nevertheless, it's is still the route to everyone getting along. The "tossed salad" approach leads to dysfunctional "balkanization" and disordered chaos.
Not new at all, it seems that this was an issue of concern 100 years ago.


We can have no "50-50" allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all.
Theodore Roosevelt


Adn you know this how;)
I have read some stories about it, there was a big story in The Statesman a few months ago about it. I also have a cousin in prison in OK for manufacture and distribution along with being addicted to it himself.

CBS News - Mexican Meth Floods U.S. (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/19/eveningnews/main1636846.shtml)

[Okla-homey]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't tribal members considered as carrying dual citizenship given that their respective tribes are considered sovereign nations?

That's the way I've always understood it.

You are correct. Actually, they are considered citizens of three sovereigns. The US, the state in which they reside, and their tribe. It's worth noting however, the state has no power over the tribe. Only Congress can trump tribal sovereignty -- unless the tribe "explicitly and unambiguosly" waives it. As an aside, that's why tribal car tags are legal. Not to get this too complicated, but tribal citizens are subject to state taxes only if they earn income from non-tribal sources or aren't domiciled in Indian Country. They are of course subject to federal taxes.

My point was, they did'nt choose to be split that way. Congress chose to do that to them. Thus, one can argue the duality of citizenship is not of the Indians' making and thus they aren't trying to have it both ways like certain ethnicities now residing among us.