Your thoughts on unions

[SoonerTerry]

Discuss

[OUHOMER]

never been in one, hope to never be in one. With that being said I can see there purpose with organizations the size of GM or ford. But i dont see them being effective for smaller companys. I think the union can tie the hands of company growth. i used to be a die hard that thought unions should die and go away. Now i can still see why unions are needed. Seems to me companys now sell their souls to the stock market and will do what ever it takes to keep their share price up.

But what do i know, i am just a frnhillbilly

[OUHOMER]

I guess the next thread will be YOUR THOUGHTS ON ONIONS

[Okla-homey]

Discuss

They once served a purpose. Now that we have OSHA and related federal legislation, to include fair wage and hour laws, Workers Comp, and laws banning discrimination, etc., unions have outlived their useful life.

Unions generally now serve mainly to enrich the union leaders while making labor costs too high for much of American manufacturing -- thus actually forcing American jobs overseas or to regions of the US where unions are weak.

Having killed US manufacturing as their bread and butter, it's interesting to plot the demise of the manufacturing sector and the corresponding shift in union focus to service workers, including the very powerful AFSCME.

http://www.afscme.org/

America would be better off without them.

[jk the sooner fan]

my new job causes me to interact with NATCA quite a bit - not a big fan of the theatrics

[Sooner Born Sooner Bred]

I'll answer this from the perspective of a "union brat."

My dad went to work at GM when the OKC plant opened in 1979, I was 5. Prior to that, he worked in construction which wasn't always stable work.

The work was tough, but the benefits were good. We didn't have to pay to go to the doctor & just paid a few dollars for prescriptions. His pay was excellent. These were all things that helped our little family. When my Dad got sick and eventually died, his insurance paid a huge chunk of his medical expenses. These are all Union negotiated benefits.

At the same time, there was a company called Unit Parts across town that wasn't a union shop. These people were doing the same type of work for a lot less money and benefits.

So in that regard, I think unions are a good thing.

I've also heard stories about lazy *** employees who don't do their job, but the union would step in and protect them. I think they serve a purpose to be a liaison for an employee, but sometimes it seemed ridiculous.

And just because I know it will come up in this thread, Right to Work is a form of welfare. If a person chooses not to join a union, they can't be denied the union negotiated benefits. You can say you don't want your contribution sent to the PAC or whatever, but you can't be denied the health, retirement and other benefits the union has worked to get for you.

[crawfish]

Unions were great, until they became as corrupt as the businesses they fought against.

[Okla-homey]

Unions were great, until they became as corrupt as the businesses they fought against.

That sums it up nicely.

[royalfan5]

The existence of unions should serve as incentive for companies to build systems to keep their employees happy without them forming a union and causing more problems. Also, blaming unions solely for the demise of US manufacturing is very far from the truth. Poor management in a many cases, especially with the automakers and steel industry's had just as much to do with it, as well as a failure to adapt by Americans to changing worldwide economic conditions. Even without unions, the only manufacturing that can truly thrive in the United States is highly skilled, capital and automation intensive industries, and ag processing fields. The world has changed, and in many cases, unions, management, and workers haven't.

[Petro-Sooner]

What is PAC? Also, what is right to work? I know a few years back there was a vote over it but it was over my heard as to its meaning. thx.

[Dio]

When I worked at Homeland, this employee exposed himself to a customer. The company wanted to fire him, but the UFCW wouldn't let them, so they transferred him to a different store. After he went Byron Houston over there too, the union finally let him get canned. Also, the union rammed through a pay cut -they made some of the locals vote 3 or 4 times before they finally approved it- you can't convince me the union higher-ups didn't get a kickback from the company.

[Howzit]

Against.

I worked for years on the management side of Teamster contracts. Overall I saw way too much protection of the worthlesst, lazy slob. I saw constant fighting against policies and projects that were meant to keep the company competitive and were perfectly fair and reasonable to the worker. They consistently added cost to the system, often for no reason.

They weren't all bad. Occasionally I would see a shop that worked with management and viewed their existence and the companies goals as being a symbiotic relationship, but these tended to be the exception and not the rule. And some of the worst ones were in Oklahoma, Missouri, and Kansas, which always seemed strange to me.

However, many of the benefits we all enjoy today, such as weekends and paid holidays, are attributable to the early unions.

[85Sooner]

That sums it up nicely.
dittos

[Mjcpr]

However, many of the benefits we all enjoy today, such as weekends and paid holidays, are attributable to the early unions.

So before then, the week just went Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Monday, Tuesday, etc...?

[Howzit]

That is correct.

[StoopTroup]

I think most Unions have become huge machines that protect the flow of dues into their organizations.

OSHA and Workers Comp in this State are jokes.

OSHA fines are so small that most Corporations don't fix anything before it hurts someone. EPA fines are a different story...they can be huge and when they occur it seems to all of a sudden come down to some employee screwed up although once you look into it...you'll more than likely find it was some sort of internal "It's not my job" finger pointing.

Workers Comp in this State...I guess it may help the small injury but from what I've seen...if you get really hurt and it's because of an employers negligence...you better hope you've got a Union behind you as your probably looking forward to becoming a permanently disabled memory of the working class.

It's easy to say this Country would be better off without Unions however I saw a recent good example of the positive side during 911. When they needed skilled workers and they needed them in a hurry...the folks with Union Cards were dispersed onto the scene. The reason...most of those have had lots of training with chemicals and dangerous situations.

I know for a fact that Unions need a facelift in this Country.

The thing is...there really aren't many left and the ones that are still strong are giving the Brand Name "Union" a bad name.

It's really to bad.

I don't think what's occurring is good for our Country.

I think a lot of it is coming from the shift from Skilled Labor jobs to Techie jobs.

The attitude that Unions are inherently bad has been a long time view of most Americans for way to long. Our Country needs skilled labor and will always need skilled labor.

If you think not....you need to wake up.

Dirty Jobs isn't just a Cable Show for many of us...it's what we do every week.

[Mjcpr]

That is correct.

Well, then i'm going to have to change my stance on unions.

[r5TPsooner]

Unions suck! They once served a purpose now they're just corrupt and worthless. Unions give an employee the right to equal pay and benefits but if you have two identical employees doing the same job, one does there's fantastic, while the other could care-a-less, both get the same pay increase come raise time. It also allows employees to work the system but not in a good way. It also extremely difficult to fire an employee that's in a union regardless of the circumstance within reason.

[JohnnyMack]

Well, then i'm going to have to change my stance on unions.

Yes. Apparently unions managed to move the earth farther away from the sun. Amazing.

[TUSooner]

Not all good; not all bad. I have been in the Teamsters and the Nat'l Assn. of Letter Carriers, and I got good pay and benefits due to unions, but I also saw idiots get protected and productivity set back by chicken-sh*t work rules, and little tin union gods erected. Sometimes getting a union in your shop is just getting an extra set of jerks telling you what to do.

On the whole, unions are best avoided, but it's good to know they are a last resort if management wants to put the squeeze on. It's ludicrous to leave labor totally outside the market calculus, which is what some lassez-faire purists are essentially doing when they would not allow the work force to present a united front.

[KRYPTON]

Incredibly important in the development of the US as an international industrial power in the late 1800's and early 1900's, where tycoons were wont to keep all the money and rathole the immigrant workers in slums.

Now, a huge tax on the economy.

[StoopTroup]

I've seen quite a few Union Employees fired over the last 20 years.

Most of the folks I've seen fired had been given multiple chances and I don't feel sorry for them.

The worst ones have played the system for years and then gotten themselves fired only to find out that they are unemployable once they hit the street. That isn't the Unions fault when it happens...it's the employee.

[NormanPride]

Yes. Apparently unions managed to move the earth farther away from the sun. Amazing.

Unions: doing their part to prevent global warming.

[Howzit]

I've seen quite a few Union Employees fired over the last 20 years.

Most of the folks I've seen fired had been given multiple chances and I don't feel sorry for them.

The worst ones have played the system for years and then gotten themselves fired only to find out that they are unemployable once they hit the street. That isn't the Unions fault when it happens...it's the employee.

Whose fault is it they got to stick around for years playing the system?

[SoonerKnight]

Onions stink! Oh wait a minute.........unions.....what I said before... :)

Actually unions are good in negotiating wages and benefits especially if your not going to get a pay increase because of the companies generocity!

United is unionized and their union failed to protect the most important thing the employees retirement plan. They allowed the company to use it as capital. Not a good idea!

[StoopTroup]

Mostly Managements.

They make these rules and then they can't man-up and implement them.

The power of what really goes on is when the Management has a good work group and they go after someone because they hear something close to the truth.

The best thing I've ever seen used is sending someone outside for a month on suspension while waiting for arbitration.

Once you've faced that...most folks won't play the system anymore.

Again...it's not the fix for all folks though.

[Howzit]

Mostly Managements.

They make these rules and then they can't man-up and implement them.

The power of what really goes on is when the Management has a good work group and they go after someone because they hear something close to the truth.

The best thing I've ever seen used is sending someone outside for a month on suspension while waiting for arbitration.

Once you've faced that...most folks won't play the system anymore.

Again...it's not the fix for all folks though.

We have had vastly different experiences. Mine have been with orchestrated, unofficial slowdowns over BS stuff that result in costing thousands of $ to the company. And stupid arbitration rulings.

Let me give you an example, at a Philadelphia warehouse we knew there was a group of guys that were running up to the corner store to drink beer at lunch. Our security guy followed them and watched. Our security guy followed and video taped. On multiple occasions. We fired them.

The union takes it to arbitration, where the arbitrator ultimately ruled that we had to take them back, with backpay, because we never TOLD them they could not go to the corner store and drink beer at lunch.

[crawfish]

I'm against same-sex unions.

Sorry, howzit.

[StoopTroup]

We have had vastly different experiences. Mine have been with orchestrated, unofficial slowdowns over BS stuff that result in costing thousands of $ to the company. And stupid arbitration rulings.

Let me give you an example, at a Philadelphia warehouse we knew there was a group of guys that were running up to the corner store to drink beer at lunch. Our security guy followed them and watched. Our security guy followed and video taped. On multiple occasions. We fired them.

The union takes it to arbitration, where the arbitrator ultimately ruled that we had to take them back, with backpay, because we never TOLD them they could not go to the corner store and drink beer at lunch.
They'd be gone where I work.

You can't drink on the job period. If your suspected they will give you a breath-a-lyser on the spot. Flunk it and about the only way is to agree to a Drug and Alcohol Program which is no joke. You'll not want to go through it again unless you want to get fired permanently and you are truely gonna have to go through it on the outside without a job.

[SoonerKnight]

We have had vastly different experiences. Mine have been with orchestrated, unofficial slowdowns over BS stuff that result in costing thousands of $ to the company. And stupid arbitration rulings.

Let me give you an example, at a Philadelphia warehouse we knew there was a group of guys that were running up to the corner store to drink beer at lunch. Our security guy followed them and watched. Our security guy followed and video taped. On multiple occasions. We fired them.

The union takes it to arbitration, where the arbitrator ultimately ruled that we had to take them back, with backpay, because we never TOLD them they could not go to the corner store and drink beer at lunch.

A drug test would have solved that problem plus an agreement signed by employees that they will not drink before or during work hours. Heck the Feds make you sign that when you work for them.

[StoopTroup]

The sad thing is this about folks who drink at work...

If I got hurt because you were stoned or drunk...

You won't have to worry about being fired...

You will need to worry about who has your back from now on.

You might as well quit at that point anyway.

Any Company that's not talking to their employees about drugs and alcohol on the job is in need of some serious changes anyway. The liability factor would easily pay for the costs of such a program.

[Howzit]

I may have missed it earlier, are you a union member, Stoop?

[OCUDad]

So what are your thoughts on bunions? (If I start a separate thread, it'll just get merged).

[1stTimeCaller]

A drug test would have solved that problem plus an agreement signed by employees that they will not drink before or during work hours. Heck the Feds make you sign that when you work for them.

What? Grown men and women need to be told that it isn't OK to drink at work?

If these union members want to run a company they need to save up or get aloan and put their name on the side of the building and run it however they see fit.

If you don't like how you are being treated, quit. If enough people quit then the employer won't have any good employees and their product will suffer and the marketplace will put them out of business.

[StoopTroup]

What? Grown men and women need to be told that it isn't OK to drink at work?

If these union members want to run a company they need to save up or get aloan and put their name on the side of the building and run it however they see fit.

If you don't like how you are being treated, quit. If enough people quit then the employer won't have any good employees and their product will suffer and the marketplace will put them out of business.
I don't think Unions want to run Companies...however the weak management these Companies hire think they are going to change things. Once they get on the job they quit listening to their employees and then they either join a clique, go insane or quit.

It's amazing that many of these Companies can get a bank to loan them a dime IMO.

[1stTimeCaller]

Unions want to set wages, hours and benefits for employees. That's a large part of running a company.

Why not let the market/company set the wages and benefits paid?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Nobody has talked much about government employee unions. Someone with experience dealing with them please elaborate. Thnx

[SoonerKnight]

Unions want to set wages, hours and benefits for employees. That's a large part of running a company.

Why not let the market/company set the wages and benefits paid?

Like Oklahoma and have really low wages? There is a reason I had to move from the state I love. Oh and I have a college degree and the field I work in pays better everywhere else.

[1stTimeCaller]

I guess I just think I'm a better employee and a better negotiator than the guy next to me is. That's one reason I'm glad that I'm not in a union.

I wasn't a large fan of unions when I managed construction. It seemed to me that their sole purpose was to disrupt our project's schedule.

[1stTimeCaller]

Like Oklahoma and have really low wages? There is a reason I had to move from the state I love. Oh and I have a college degree and the field I work in pays better everywhere else.

I live in Oklahoma, have a college degree, work a blue collar job and make anything but a low wage.

I'm sure that wherever you moved to has the same low cost of living that Oklahoma does.

[StoopTroup]

Unions want to set wages, hours and benefits for employees. That's a large part of running a company.

Why not let the market/company set the wages and benefits paid?
I've seen my wage go down and my benefits go down while working a Union job, so I have no idea why you think that.

The thing is...if I thought our company was healthy enough to withstand the market setting the wage, I'd be all for it.

Sadly, The Board of Directors continue to allow the current management to continue running things to their benefit instead of stockholders.

Truth is...if most employees were stockholders and could vote for the leadership they thought was best for their company....they would continue to ask for pay increases that they more than likely don't deserve.

[1stTimeCaller]

I agree with you StoopTroup.

When I managed construction we had unions try to tell us what we could do and not do.

'I'm an iron worker, I can't carry a piece of wood more than 10 feet'.

'Your labor foreman isn't a steel worker, he can't move those embeds, that's an iron workers job'.

They then proceeded to throw all 188 embeds for the curtainwall off of the building.

The iron workers were also behind schedule so they sabotaged the fireproofer's equipment so they weren't holding the fireproofer up. :rolleyes:

That's some of my experience with unions.

[soonerscuba]

It's almost as if union workers think there is a magical document somewhere that gives them the right to peaceably assemble. What morans.

[KsSooner]

As a salaried non-union worker I received anywhere from 5% to 8% wage increases for years. When the union was voted in at my company to represent the salaried employees, my yearly wage increases were guaranteed at $800 per year minimum (bfd) and I have received 2% to 3.5%. So I am not a big fan of unions. Why should I, as a high performer (based on management reviews) give up my 'share' of the wage pool to fund the guaranteed wage increase of a non-performering slacker that we all know exist in the workplace.

[1stTimeCaller]

It's almost as if union workers think there is a magical document somewhere that gives them the right to peaceably assemble. What morans.

WTF are you yammering about?

[Howzit]

It's almost as if union workers think there is a magical document somewhere that gives them the right to peaceably assemble. What morans.


Lost me there.

[StoopTroup]

As a salaried non-union worker I received anywhere from 5% to 8% wage increases for years. When the union was voted in at my company to represent the salaried employees, my yearly wage increases were guaranteed at $800 per year minimum (bfd) and I have received 2% to 3.5%. So I am not a big fan of unions. Why should I, as a high performer (based on management reviews) give up my 'share' of the wage pool to fund the guaranteed wage increase of a non-performering slacker that we all know exist in the workplace.
You make a good point on this one. If I thought the folks that did reviews were capable of creating a fair enviroment for these I would completely agree. I think if that same person was evaluated by the folks he was evaluating it might even work.

We had this new project last year and there were these folks who thought they worked harder than other people and they decided to checkout just who was doing all the work. At the end you found that there weren't many doing much less than they were and for the most part...they were average workers. The thing that came out of it all was that there are some folks who were able to make themselves look busy and others who were very efficient at what they were doing, in some cases to efficient. The really crappy part were the folks who would come in and cherrypick everyday and go around talking down everyone else. I guarantee you that nobody could hang in the enviroment I work in having to pick-up all all the jobs that nobody else would touch.

The thing is...some folks are just really good at what they do and enjoy coming to work everyday. What they hate is working with folks who are just trying to get a good evaluation for a few extra bucks. It would end up hurting morale where I work.

[soonerscuba]

Lost me there.

Well, it seems silly to be anti-union to me, simply because they have the right to exist. I don't blame ****ty movies on the first amendment, likewise unions exist because the market has determined that they are required, or were required and are on their way out. Either way, there is lots of blame going around for manufactoring jobs going abroad, and if one thinks this is because of unions it also stands to reason that it's also because we as a nation respect people's existance; basically I would rather have a corrupt union boss than child labor, sweat shops, and Chinese working conditions, even if I didn't do that kind of work.

[1stTimeCaller]

you haven't read any posts in this thread have you?

[soonerscuba]

you haven't read any posts in this thread have you?

Of course not, like I care what any of you savages have to say. ;)

[OCUDad]

You have a right to exist. Does this mean I have to like you? :rolleyes:

[StoopTroup]

I think Wlamart deserves a Union just because I hate them. :D

[Howzit]

Believe me, they are number one on the Teamsters' wish list.

[sooner_born_1960]

You have a right to exist. Did we vote on this?

[StoopTroup]

Is this the grunions thread?

[OCUDad]

Did we vote on this?It was a secret ballot. So secret I don't know the result. I just assumed... :(

[SoonerTerry]

Thanks to all for replying,

Personally i am in a situation where our pay is about 30% lower than shops in our area.

That being said, after 6 months with the company I'm with I got a really shocking raise.

But it still doesn't put me or anyone else in the shop close to the other shops around here. And honestly for the skill set we posess, we could make more money in other fields, but that is changing.. ie the wage is catching up quickly.. just not in this shop.

[SoonerKnight]

Oklahoma has a low cost of living mainly because jobs there do not pay well comparatively. Why do so many people leave Oklahoma to work in other states? Unions have their good and bad. I have worked both non-union and unionized. When I worked non-union it was with the federal gov't. No Union no pay raise. Now I work for a Union and may get a 20%+ raise over the next three years. I see the union a good thing in that respect.

[Jerk]

I saw no need for unions when I worked for a family-owned company. I guess they were good people until they sold us down the river to Giant International Mega-Corporation. Now, I'm not so sure. Maybe a union would give those d**cherockets something to worry about except the bottom line.

At least the new people haven't f***ed with my pay, yet. When they do, I'm outta there.

[Curly Bill]

I really thought the Confederacy could take them...:D