OKC's $248 mm school bond issue...

[Soonerus]

...passes by over 78%....are the vision in OKC and Tulsa a little different....Tulsa's river vote fails...

[goingoneight]

The way I look at it is, you should fix the ricketty old frame before you go and hang a fancy toy on it. We need more important stuff than toys. I am also against building a new Driller's stadium since they can't fill the one they have. But that's not something we'll vote on, it's just stupid if some rich sponsor takes the bait.

[Boomer.....]

The new Driller's stadium will be privately funded if it is built in Jenks. Not sure if it built downtown.

[Okla-homey]

...passes by over 78%....are the vision in OKC and Tulsa a little different....Tulsa's river vote fails...

Not really. People will usually vote to throw more good money at rickety disfunctional schools in the mistaken belief the infusion of cash will somehow magically make them better.

It's For The Children.

meh.

P.S. if people want a better quality education for their kids, they need to do a few things. Not necessarily in priority order
1) make the State Supt. of Education a gubernatorial appointed vice an elected gig.
2) year-round school, based on tri-mesters with a two week break between each one.
3) lengthen the school day to 4:30.
4) Take a hard look at teacher certification requirements and make it possible for anyone with a bachelors degree in their field to teach that subject in an Oklahoma secondary school.
5) merit pay for teachers based on their kids' improvements (NOT performance) on standardized tests.
6) eliminate redundant school districts. Example: there should be one Tulsa County School District, not the hodge-podge we have now. The status quo is wasteful and makes economies of scale harder to achieve.

[Hamhock]

Not really. People will usually vote to throw more good money at rickety disfunctional schools in the mistaken belief the infusion of cash will somehow magically make them better.

It's For The Children.

meh.

P.S. if people want a better quality education for their kids, they need to do a few things. Not necessarily in priority order
1) make the State Supt. of Education a gubernatorial appointed vice an elected gig.
2) year-round school, based on tri-mesters with a two week break between each one.
3) lengthen the school day to 4:30.
4) Take a hard look at teacher certification requirements and make it possible for anyone with a bachelors degree in their field to teach that subject in an Oklahoma secondary school.
5) merit pay for teachers based on their kids' improvements (NOT performance) on standardized tests.
6) eliminate redundant school districts. Example: there should be one Tulsa County School District, not the hodge-podge we have now. The status quo is wasteful and makes economies of scale harder to achieve.

is this my opportunity to turn yet another thread into a homeschool debate? :texan:

[Soonrboy]

it's money to build gyms with..over 3/4 of the elementary schools do not have one... get new buses, and build a few more classrooms...geesh

[OUDoc]

is this my opportunity to turn yet another thread into a homeschool debate? :texan:
Do you have a stadium with artificial turf?

[Hamhock]

Do you have a stadium with artificial turf?


i have a pond in the back yard.

[Hamhock]

and i've been known to have secks with the teacher.

[OUDoc]

and i've been known to have secks with the teacher.
You're qualified to be a student there, but not an administrator.

[Okla-homey]

Teachers do strange things sometimes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6n9A5V4ivg

[OklahomaTuba]

...passes by over 78%....are the vision in OKC and Tulsa a little different....Tulsa's river vote fails...

If Tulsa was voting on something like improving schools, it would have passed.

This wasn't a need we voted on in Tulsa, it was a WANT. Big difference.

[1stTimeCaller]

Tuba doesn't think that MAPS has helped OKC.

[JohnnyMack]

Tuba doesn't think that MAPS has helped OKC.

In all fairness to our little crash helmet wearing Tuba, the river project was no where near as clearly defined as MAPS was.

[1stTimeCaller]

my apologies. To Tuba, not to you.

[JohnnyMack]

my apologies. To Tuba, not to you.

Suck it.

[tommieharris91]

People will usually vote to throw more good money at rickety disfunctional schools in the mistaken belief the infusion of cash will somehow magically make them better.


You would have a lot of trouble telling okie aggies this.

[1stTimeCaller]

Suck it.
http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/images/buttons/report.gif

[Frozen Sooner]

Not really. People will usually vote to throw more good money at rickety disfunctional schools in the mistaken belief the infusion of cash will somehow magically make them better.

It's For The Children.

meh.

P.S. if people want a better quality education for their kids, they need to do a few things. Not necessarily in priority order
1) make the State Supt. of Education a gubernatorial appointed vice an elected gig.
2) year-round school, based on tri-mesters with a two week break between each one.
3) lengthen the school day to 4:30.
4) Take a hard look at teacher certification requirements and make it possible for anyone with a bachelors degree in their field to teach that subject in an Oklahoma secondary school.
5) merit pay for teachers based on their kids' improvements (NOT performance) on standardized tests.
6) eliminate redundant school districts. Example: there should be one Tulsa County School District, not the hodge-podge we have now. The status quo is wasteful and makes economies of scale harder to achieve.

I like your suggestions and think they have merit.

Do you intend to significantly increase teacher pay in light of 2 and 3? By my reckoning, that increases contract hours by about 15% just on the lengthening of the school day, then increasing them by another 25% by eliminating the summers off. That's a ca. 44% increase in contracted work hours.

[Mjcpr]

:pop:

[Frozen Sooner]

No, seriously-I think his ideas have a lot of merit to them. Particularly year-round school. The justification for summer break no longer really exists, and kids lose a TON of ground by sitting around for three months.

I just think it's a tad unrealistic to increase someone's contracted work hours by 44% and not expect to have to pay them more.

[1stTimeCaller]

you could pay for the increased classroom teacher costs by reduced administrator costs.

[Mjcpr]

you could pay for the increased classroom teacher costs by reduced administrator costs.

Didn't you say they were overpaid by about 44% anyway? This should just even things out.

[1stTimeCaller]

46%

It's a net gain bayyyybeeeee.

According to my gazintas

[Condescending Sooner]

I like your suggestions and think they have merit.

Do you intend to significantly increase teacher pay in light of 2 and 3? By my reckoning, that increases contract hours by about 15% just on the lengthening of the school day, then increasing them by another 25% by eliminating the summers off. That's a ca. 44% increase in contracted work hours.

Teachers already work 10 hours a day year round. That's what they always say when they whine every year about a pay raise. In Oklahoma City, you could get these idiots to pass anything as long as it's "for the kids". I think new gymnasiums are very low on the needs list for our schools.

[Frozen Sooner]

Teachers already work 10 hours a day year round. That's what they always say when they whine every year about a pay raise. In Oklahoma City, you could get these idiots to pass anything as long as it's "for the kids". I think new gymnasiums are very low on the needs list for our schools.

They do work 10 hours a day while school is in session. And you're going to increase that by another 1.5 hours. Or do you think that parent conferences happen in a vacuum? Or that papers get graded automatically? I've never heard a teacher make the claim that they work 10 hours per day when school is out.

[bri]

...passes by over 78%....are the vision in OKC and Tulsa a little different....Tulsa's river vote fails...

Russell, you're a goddamn idiot. These are two completely different issues and you damn well know it. At least, you should know it. Any person with half a clue would be able to see the difference.

But then again, any person with half a clue would be capable of using punctuation other than ellipses.

[JohnnyMack]

Russell, you're a goddamn idiot. These are two completely different issues and you damn well know it. At least, you should know it. Any person with half a clue would be able to see the difference.

But then again, any person with half a clue would be capable of using punctuation other than ellipses.

what...?

[Condescending Sooner]

They do work 10 hours a day while school is in session. And you're going to increase that by another 1.5 hours. Or do you think that parent conferences happen in a vacuum? Or that papers get graded automatically? I've never heard a teacher make the claim that they work 10 hours per day when school is out.

They don't work 10 hours a day during school either. I have a sister-in-law and a neighbor that prove otherwise. I can't believe how many people fall for that.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0823418200.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[Frozen Sooner]

They don't work 10 hours a day during school either. I have a sister-in-law and a neighbor that prove otherwise. I can't believe how many people fall for that.

Then your sister-in-law and neighbor are crappy teachers.

I have a parent and a best friend that prove that they do. I can't believe how many people seem to think that teachers are only working when they're sitting at their desk.

[Sooner_Bob]

Teachers work a whole lot harder (some of them anyway) than many people give them credit for. This is very apparent when your kids go from a very good teacher to a very bad teacher.

Also, as far as certifying anyone with a BS degree in their chosen field to teach, I thought OK had an alternative teacher certification option? You get to teach and have a year or so to take the required teacher's education courses.

[Condescending Sooner]

Then your sister-in-law and neighbor are crappy teachers.

I have a parent and a best friend that prove that they do. I can't believe how many people seem to think that teachers are only working when they're sitting at their desk.

I'm sure they will be crushed by your opinion, which is just that. Of course, you believe your opinion is fact and you know all. If you believe that very many teachers work 10 hours a day, you are easily swayed by what others tell you. I never said they only worked when sitting at a desk. Some teachers I know TELL me how many hours they work, but it is kinda hard to believe when they are always screwing around in the yard or working their second job.

[Okla-homey]

Look, if we lengthen the school day by an hour and half, and cut out the extended summer break, I'd be willing to negotiate coresponding salary increases for teachers. However, I am not blind to the fact they get paid year-round now.

The thing is, the amount of instructional time our kids get has not advanced by one single minute since Oklahoma became a state in 1907. Think about that. What has happened in the world OUr kids need to learn since then? Crikey.

In fact, I think I could make a pretty colorable argument that the educracy has worked pretty hard to protect its interests at the expense of our kids for too dang long. How else do you explain the status quo amount of instructional time being identical in the 21st century to that of the dawn of the 20th? No merit pay? "Last hired first fired" and all that other trade union stuff? I'm ranting now I know, but dang it, truly professional people have no need of that kind of stuff IMHO

It's a no-brainer to me, but I'm not a teacher so WTF do I know?

[Frozen Sooner]

I'm sure they will be crushed by your opinion, which is just that. Of course, you believe your opinion is fact and you know all. If you believe that very many teachers work 10 hours a day, you are easily swayed by what others tell you. I never said they only worked when sitting at a desk. Some teachers I know TELL me how many hours they work, but it is kinda hard to believe when they are always screwing around in the yard or working their second job.

So, I'm guessing you sit behind them and time how many hours a day they work?

[Frozen Sooner]

Look, if we lengthen the school day by an hour and half, and cut out the extended summer break, I'd be willing to negotiate coresponding salary increases for teachers. However, I am not blind to the fact they get paid year-round now.


Yeah, they get paid year-round but it's on the same salary. It's just split 12 times instead of 9. Dividing $40,000 by 12 doesn't mean you get paid more than if you divide it by 9.

However, good. Looks like we agree that if you make a significant change to someone's work hours and conditions then a salary renegotiation is in order.

Believe it or not, quite a few teachers I know are in favor of extending the school year so long as their pay is increased accordingly.

[Sooner_Bob]

I'd settle for all day kindergarten here in Deer Creek.

[Condescending Sooner]

So, I'm guessing you sit behind them and time how many hours a day they work?

No, because that would mean I think they only work when behind their desk. My neighbor is in her yard when I leave in the morning and when I get home at night. My friend works a second job. My sister-in-law is home before 4 every day, and has a teachers assistant that grades most of the papers. Believe what you choose, and I will as well. I think most prison guards and DHS workers would love to have the pay and work schedule of teachers.

[Frozen Sooner]

You think so? 'Cause I don't know about there, but prison guards up here work one on one off schedules and get overtime for what they work over 8 hours in a day.

[Condescending Sooner]

Yeah, they get paid year-round but it's on the same salary. It's just split 12 times instead of 9. Dividing $40,000 by 12 doesn't mean you get paid more than if you divide it by 9..

So you admit they only work 9 months a year? Most teachers won't admit to that.

[JohnnyMack]

My wife's sister is a teacher out in Arizona. She's here visiting now on fall break. I don't get a fall break here at my office.

[Condescending Sooner]

You think so? 'Cause I don't know about there, but prison guards up here work one on one off schedules and get overtime for what they work over 8 hours in a day.

It certainly isn't that way in Oklahoma. Starting pay is $24,600, there is very little overtime, and none of them work one on and one off.

[Frozen Sooner]

Don't think I've ever disputed that, nor do I think I've ever heard a teacher say that they work for the district in the summer months. If you read my initial post in this thread, I stated that year-round school would result in an increase in hours worked.

I HAVE made the argument that based on the actual hours worked in a year that "three months" off argument isn't as compelling as teacher-haters think it is.

However, you may want to reread what you quoted, because your conclusion isn't supported by it. It just happened to be correct.

[Frozen Sooner]

It certainly isn't that way in Oklahoma. Starting pay is $24,600, there is very little overtime, and none of them work one on and one off.

Starting pay for a CO in Anchorage is $38k+ per year, and their work week is 42 hours. However, Anchorage COs don't work one on one off. They do in Seward, though, but I'm not sure how their salary is structured.

edit: Actually, according to the Alaska DOC website, they do get one on/one off working in Anchorage as well.

[Condescending Sooner]

The teachers around here will not admit to only working 9 months a year. They always talk about in-service trainings, teacher prep. etc. The prison guards up there must have it nice. They only work every other day, but get 42 hours. They get paid overtime for hours worked over 8 in a day, when federal law only requires overtime for hours worked over 40 in a week. To work 42 hours a week while getting every other day off, that means they must work at least 10.5 hours a day. They then get paid 2.5 hours of over time every day even though they only work 2 hours of actual overtime for the week. Nice gig.

[Frozen Sooner]

Federal law is 40 hours in a week. State law is 8 hours in a day.

[Condescending Sooner]

So if you work 10 hours one day and 6 the next, you still get 2 hours of overtime pay? I need to move to wherever you are.

[r5TPsooner]

I'd settle for all day kindergarten here in Deer Creek.



Damn straight! This 2 hour plus stuff is tough on scheduling things.

[Soonrboy]

So you admit they only work 9 months a year? Most teachers won't admit to that.

Teacher's aren't on contract during the summer months. What they choose to do with that time is up to them. Some get paid extra to work summer school, they get paid extra because it is off contract time. We all get paid 24 paychecks per year, but our contract is not 12 months long.

Many of my teachers are here from 7:30, 7:45 until 4:30 most days. Almost half will stay til 5:30 providing after school tutoring, but I pay them for that. Those who consistantly leave early are either mothers who have to get home to the kids or else pay more for daycare, those who are taking courses, or those who are working another job. I'm not going to bash them for not working a 10 hour day.

Your friend who lets her assistant grade all her papers has no idea what her students can or can't do then, which is an idiotic move. I do not allow the assistants in my building to grade papers, that is the teacher's responsibility.

There are 3 elementary schools who are on alternate schedules. I believe they are in school for 9 weeks, off 3...with the traditional christmas and spring breaks. I want my school to go to that. They don't receive more pay, they are just on a different contract.

[Soonrboy]

My wife's sister is a teacher out in Arizona. She's here visiting now on fall break. I don't get a fall break here at my office.

you should, it's really quite a nice little break.

[Sooner_Bob]

People who complain about teacher's pay/work schedule have clearly never tried to teach other people's kids. It's not as easy as you might think.

And the 9 months on 3 months off argument is a cop out. If you could get a job and have the exact same schedule you'd jump on it in a heartbeat.

Some teachers do have 12 month contracts (Vo-Ag and other technical programs) and work their fair share of overtime. Especially during show and contest seasons.

[Mixer!]

What are the operating cost differences between 9/3 vs. year-round? I'm not sure that every school in Oklahoma has AC.

[Frozen Sooner]

So if you work 10 hours one day and 6 the next, you still get 2 hours of overtime pay? I need to move to wherever you are.

It's pretty clearly stated in my location. Feel free-the water's fine. :D