So the thread about Gresham was locked.

[TopDawg]

And maybe this one will be too.

But essentially this is what that thread seemed to be about to me:


Group A: Gresham is a great receiving TE, but he needs to work on his blocking.

Group B: You're a jerk.

Group A: OK, but the point still remains, he's a great receiving TE, but he needs to work on his blocking.

Group B: You should STFU.

Group C: He had a great game last week.

Group A: He had a great receiving game, but an average at best blocking game. Look, here's what I saw *numbers*

Group B: You need to get a life.

Group C: But he's a great receiver.

Group A: Yes...as a receiver he's one of the best TE's in the nation. But he COULD be one of the best overall TE's and a bigger asset to our team if he would use his size and aggressiveness more in carrying out his blocking assignments.

Group B: STFU DUDE! [hairGel]

Group C: But he's a great receiver. :mack:

I just glanced through it pretty quickly, but that seemed to be kind of how it ended. CrimsonHelmet seemed to have some facts to back up his assertion that Gresham is not a great blocker. Does anybody disagree with him? I mean, if you think blocking isn't an important part of being a TE anymore, fine...you've probably got a legitimate argument and you should approach it from that angle instead of the "you're an obsessive idiot" angle. Gresham might be able to get by...even in the NFL...on his receiving ability alone, but that doesn't mean that CrimsonHelmet doesn't have a good point.

Anyway, I started this thread because I was interested in the actual football talk that was happening in the other one. But unfortunately SoonerFans.com has turned into one of those places where you can't have a reasonable discussion about football anymore.

[jk the sooner fan]

i think you left out the part where they all proclaimed before he even set foot in Norman

that he was "soft and had stone hands".....that he was highly overrated as a 5 star and that the coaches were stupid for even thinking of giving this kid a scholly

you left all that brilliant genius prognostication out

[Mjcpr]

Gresham growing up: Sophomore tight end Jermaine Gresham made the most impressive catch Friday night, taking Sam Bradford's 21-yard pass in the third quarter, coming down at the goal line and hanging on for a touchdown despite being belted by TU defensive back Randy Duncan.

That, however, is not the only thing OU offensive coordinator Kevin Wilson noticed.

"Jermaine Gresham had by far his best game since he's been here," he said. "He came walking off the field, up the ramp and looked right at me and said, 'Coach, I blocked them good tonight, and it felt good.'

"He's a big, strong kid. He's weighing 263, 264 every day right now. He's gaining confidence in knowing he can play physical and hard. He's always done pretty well in the passing game. His blocking has been a little hot, a little cold. It was probably the most complete game he's played, and that was really good to see."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/article.aspx?articleID=070924_2_B6_spanc21583

[Mjcpr]

He's got Kevin Wilson fooled too.

[toast]

"Jermaine Gresham had by far his best game since he's been here," he said. "He came walking off the field, up the ramp and looked right at me and said, 'Coach, I blocked them good tonight, and it felt good.'


Sounds like he knows his shortcomings and is working hard on them. Also, taking more pride in his blocks than his td catch is a very good sign.

[jk the sooner fan]

And maybe this one will be too.

But essentially this is what that thread seemed to be about to me:



I just glanced through it pretty quickly, but that seemed to be kind of how it ended. CrimsonHelmet seemed to have some facts to back up his assertion that Gresham is not a great blocker. Does anybody disagree with him? I mean, if you think blocking isn't an important part of being a TE anymore, fine...you've probably got a legitimate argument and you should approach it from that angle instead of the "you're an obsessive idiot" angle. Gresham might be able to get by...even in the NFL...on his receiving ability alone, but that doesn't mean that CrimsonHelmet doesn't have a good point.

Anyway, I started this thread because I was interested in the actual football talk that was happening in the other one. But unfortunately SoonerFans.com has turned into one of those places where you can't have a reasonable discussion about football anymore.


its defend a n00b day here on the sf.com!!!!!!!!

amazing

[TopDawg]

i think you left out the part where they all proclaimed before he even set foot in Norman

that he was "soft and had stone hands".....that he was highly overrated as a 5 star and that the coaches were stupid for even thinking of giving this kid a scholly

you left all that brilliant genius prognostication out

Yeah, I know that thread had a long history so I left out the beginnings, but my point was that the conversation had moved from "he is soft and has stone hands" to "he's turning into a great receiver but still needs to improve his blocking and I hope he does."

Maybe some of you have too hard of a time letting the past go and that was really at the root of the disagreement. But the fact of the matter is that nobody was HOPING that he would fail or saying that he had. They were just saying "he's catching the ball well, but he still needs to work on his blocking."

It looks like he's improving in his blocking which we can all be happy about. Like toast pointed out, the fact that he mentioned it to Kevin Wilson tells me that they've been working hard on it which, apparently, means that maybe CrimsonHelmet was on to something...that it was indeed an area that needed improvement.

I still don't see what all the disagreement and name calling was about.

[TopDawg]

its defend a n00b day here on the sf.com!!!!!!!!

amazing

One quick and easy look at each of your profiles shows me that your registration date is only 4 days earlier than CrimsonHelmet's.

I'm just trying to defend reason and rational behavior. :D

[jk the sooner fan]

so 04 has had that troll handle much longer than i knew

somebody refresh my memory, exactly when is it ok to bash an 18 year old? before he joins the team? or just not after

i get them confused all the time......

it doesnt surprise me that you'd ignore the root of the original discussion

[Ash]

IBTD

[jk the sooner fan]

and i'd be more than willing to have a serious football discussion when the so called football god/guru/experts come here and post that they were dead wrong

but they wont, they'll spin it like they've done already in the locked thread

so whats the point?

[TopDawg]

so 04 has had that troll handle much longer than i knew

I know for a fact it's not 04. But if the conspiracy theory makes you happy, long live craziness.


somebody refresh my memory, exactly when is it ok to bash an 18 year old? before he joins the team? or just not after

i get them confused all the time......

it doesnt surprise me that you'd ignore the root of the original discussion

It doesn't surprise me that you wouldn't freaking forget it! Tell me how the root of the original discussion has any bearing on the last few pages.

[jk the sooner fan]

It doesn't surprise me that you wouldn't freaking forget it! Tell me how the root of the original discussion has any bearing on the last few pages.

why else would the thread have been dug up from the past?

[GottaHavePride]

Heh. The original posts in that thread were from 2005. Good lord, it's easy to say "ooh, burn, you guys are morons for being wrong about a guy two years ago!" The original posters sounded like they were people who knew Gresham in high school and were making forecasts based on what they knew then. that discussion has ended.

Now, the discussion was that yes, Gresham is an outstanding talent, but some people are still of the opinion that he is weak in a particular facet of his game. And as far as I can see, this is the most accurate statement I've seen on these boards in months:


unfortunately SoonerFans.com has turned into one of those places where you can't have a reasonable discussion about football anymore.

[TopDawg]

and i'd be more than willing to have a serious football discussion when the so called football god/guru/experts come here and post that they were dead wrong

but they wont, they'll spin it like they've done already in the locked thread

so whats the point?

So you just want to hear them say the words "You were right, I was wrong"???

Until then, the fact that Gresham missed almost half of his blocks in the Miami game doesn't mean he needs work on his blocking, it means those guys are blinded by their prejudice against Gresham.

[jk the sooner fan]

are there any football players on the team that dont have one particular kind of weakness?

do tell

[GottaHavePride]

Actually, TopDawg, you could probably substitute "anything except boobs, skanky hoes, and cars" in the place of "football" and still be right. Wait, scratch "cars and skanky hoes" off the list, too.

[jk the sooner fan]

So you just want to hear them say the words "You were right, I was wrong"???

Until then, the fact that Gresham missed almost half of his blocks in the Miami game doesn't mean he needs work on his blocking, it means those guys are blinded by their prejudice against Gresham.

no, i dont need to hear what i already know

why on earth would somebody go back and watch a blow out game to see how many blocks ONE player missed

seems like there's a hard on there for somebody.....

[TopDawg]

are there any football players on the team that dont have one particular kind of weakness?

do tell

Change the subject, change the subject!

Yes, Sam Bradford is not a good kicker. Was that the point you were trying to make?

[TopDawg]

Actually, TopDawg, you could probably substitute "anything except boobs, skanky hoes, and cars" in the place of "football" and still be right. Wait, scratch "cars and skanky hoes" off the list, too.

heh...good point

[GottaHavePride]

Funny, sometimes when I'm watching a game I start to notice "dang, someone on that side of the line keeps whiffing on his blocks. Who the hell is over there anyway?" It's not like you have to be staring at one particular player that you "have it in for" with a clipboard to take notes on how many bad plays a guy has. You can just notice a trend as you're watching.

There's a difference between offering constructive criticism (as in: "hey, Gresham is a good receiver, but he's not the best blocker I've ever seen") and "bashing a player" (as in "OMG GRESHAM IS TEH SUXORZ HE CAPN'T BLOCK 4 NE ONE!@@!!!")

[jk the sooner fan]

Change the subject, change the subject!

Yes, Sam Bradford is not a good kicker. Was that the point you were trying to make?

thats a change of subject? you were just pointing out how the discussion was merely a reflection on how JG has a weakness in his game

big wooptie do, all of them do...

here's how i see the whole discussion, you can spin it however you like

a few posters have some dislike for JG, they didnt like him in high school and bashed the hell out of the kid before he ever strapped on a "crimson helmet"

now that he's "doing alright for himself", they've got to justify their earlier remarks by pointing out what weaknesses he has

the whole thing is just stupid

we're blowing people out 50 points a game and some of you want to bitch about the second string TE's blocking ability

[Ash]

nm

[TopDawg]

why else would the thread have been dug up from the past?

I'm not sure I see what you're saying. Will you tell me why you think it was dug up?

[TopDawg]

why else would the thread have been dug up from the past?

Oops, double post.

[TopDawg]

thats a change of subject? you were just pointing out how the discussion was merely a reflection on how JG has a weakness in his game

big wooptie do, all of them do...

Yes, they all have weaknesses. Not all of them have glaring weaknesses in one of the two most important aspects of their game.


here's how i see the whole discussion, you can spin it however you like

a few posters have some dislike for JG, they didnt like him in high school and bashed the hell out of the kid before he ever strapped on a "crimson helmet"

now that he's "doing alright for himself", they've got to justify their earlier remarks by pointing out what weaknesses he has

the whole thing is just stupid

we're blowing people out 50 points a game and some of you want to bitch about the second string TE's blocking ability

Well thank you for offering your "spin-free" version. Are you really going to suggest that any other way that I see it is spinning it and you offer a completely unbiased look?

It seems as though you are making assumptions about the situation that the people who are talking about Gresham's weaknesses don't like him and never have and, as a result, their observations are worthless. If you are comfortable basing your whole understanding of the situation on those assumptions, then I'll remember that's the lens you're looking through and drop it.

However, regardless of whether or not they like the kid, the fact of the matter is that they seemed to have some facts to back up their assertion that he wasn't a good blocker. Maybe that makes them obsessed in the eyes of some of you, but it doesn't make their facts untrue. But like so many other discussions, the argument turned away from the facts and toward name-calling.

I didn't know what to think about Gresham when he got here. I was concerned that some people who had watched him for years were concerned, but I'm pleased as punch that he's turned into the player he has so far. The fact that he and Wilson have successfully worked on improving his blocking makes me ecstatic.

[Mjcpr]

Group A: He had a great receiving game, but an average at best blocking game. Look, here's what I saw *numbers*

Coach Wilson: That, however, is not the only thing OU offensive coordinator Kevin Wilson noticed.

"Jermaine Gresham had by far his best game since he's been here," he said. "He came walking off the field, up the ramp and looked right at me and said, 'Coach, I blocked them good tonight, and it felt good.'

"He's a big, strong kid. He's weighing 263, 264 every day right now. He's gaining confidence in knowing he can play physical and hard. He's always done pretty well in the passing game. His blocking has been a little hot, a little cold. It was probably the most complete game he's played, and that was really good to see."

Group A and Coach Wilson must've been watching different games.

The only negativity I saw in this thread, either two years ago, one year ago or now, was "Group A's" negativity towards Gresham. I think most of the other folks were along the lines of "****, give the kid a chance. If the coaches want him, so do I."

[TopDawg]

Group A and Coach Wilson must've been watching different games.

Yes, they were. Group A...or, CrimsonHelmet anyway...was referring to the Miami game. Coach Wilson was referring to the Tulsa game.

Right?

I saw a little bit more negativity towards the Group A side too. I'm not denying the fact that Group A was negative and/or quick to point out weaknesses during recruiting or even recently. The frustrating thing for me was that people weren't acknowledging the argument which did have some validity (he missed half of his blocks against Miami). They were just saying things along the lines of "P iss off...you overly-critical loser."

And then, somehow, they thought it was reasonable to use his performance against Tulsa as proof that he's always been a good blocker, despite his performance against Miami.

[Scott D]

they're talking about pre-group A. Which would include jkm, Sooner24 (not to be mistaken for 04), and myself among others. Gresham has done fine to this point. He's developing nicely into a good Tight End. It's nice to see that someone has drilled into his head the importance of being better than adequate at blocking. I'd still put him more in the potential range, than the developed range at this time.

To be truthful, if there was anything in his game that gave me cause for concern it'd be how he carries the football after a reception.

[The Consumate Showman]

Wow. Crazieness. Mine is bigger than yours, etc...

Anyways, I posted on that old thread as well. I asserted that I saw Gresham throughout his high school career and YES, he did have trouble blocking, but could make all the catches you wanted him to make.

I think my point, which was asserted by many other posters on that thread, was that under Kevin Wilson'd style of offense at the time, or should I say Bob Stoops', Jermaine was not going to be the right kind of TE to fit there.

If you folks will remember, I believe we were in the "I" formation more often than not for 2 years and Jermaine was obviously a more "go out and catch passes/Trent Smith but bigger and more athletic" type of TE.

Anyway, Jermaine has proven to be a threat in the passing game and YES, he does still need to work on his blocking, but then again, so does D. Murray and some other folks on the offense as well.

Who really cares at this point? I think it is fine to discuss a potential kids weaknesses when he is in high school as long as we don't get carried away with it. Obviously jk feels we have took it too far, which I disagree with.

I asserted that Jermaine needed to get that "fire" to play hard full tilt all the time because at times in high school he did seem to go half speed some downs and after games he was very nonchalant; but after watching/covering him, I have come to realize that that is just his personality. Some guys simply aren't psycho crazy pumped all the time and Jermaine is one of those guys.

[Mjcpr]

Yes, they were. Group A...or, CrimsonHelmet anyway...was referring to the Miami game. Coach Wilson was referring to the Tulsa game.

Right?

I saw a little bit more negativity towards the Group A side too. I'm not denying the fact that Group A was negative and/or quick to point out weaknesses during recruiting or even recently. The frustrating thing for me was that people weren't acknowledging the argument which did have some validity (he missed half of his blocks against Miami). They were just saying things along the lines of "P iss off...you overly-critical loser."

And then, somehow, they thought it was reasonable to use his performance against Tulsa as proof that he's always been a good blocker, despite his performance against Miami.

My mistake, I thought you were actually talking about last week rather than quoting someone's post.

But my main point was that mine is bigger than yours.

[JohnnyMack]

It was worth 24 hours jkm gave me in the hole to at least try and stand up for a player and not have someone trash our kids like that.

[RacerX]

My mistake, I thought you were actually talking about last week rather than quoting someone's post.

But my main point was that mine is bigger than yours.

Wow. I really feel sorry for TopDawg

[JohnnyMack]

Wow. I really feel sorry for TopDawg

No ****. We should send him flowers. Or a cookie bouquet or something.

[TopDawg]

A nice e-card will be fine. ;)

[RacerX]

http://www.someecards.com/filestorage/bre_26.jpg

[JohnnyMack]

I don't have a problem with anyone on here being critical of a player, don't get me wrong. For example I watched QC in High School and thought he didn't have the hands and physical play to ever make an significant impact for OU.

What riled me up is the way a particular poster was clearly going "laces out, Dan" on JG. It went beyond "I think you need to work on your blocking" and was quickly dissolving it something more personal.

Having an opinion is one thing, but if that thread had continued I fully expected Crimson Helmet to go full on Jenni Carlson on the boy and I thought it was unnecessary.

TopDawg's reaction to the thread makes me think he just got done serving on the Phil Spector jury.

[TopDawg]

Well, the way you reacted to his posts made me think you were prone to overreacting.


Not against the kid, he's a good kid. Just the manner in which he approaches the game of football in relation to his God-given talents.

Had you seen every game of his three year high school career, you might feel the same. I am not alone in this regard. For each of his hometown supporters, you are likely to find an equal number of detractors (strictly speaking of his football play). There is a reason for this.

The young man's size/speed ratio is off the charts. We're talking world class physical gifts.

I will always begrudge those to whom much is given and who are unmindful of their gifts. Those who treat their inheirited skills as a birthright.

There are millions of current and former high school players who would kill to have his talent. They certainly would maximize his skill sets far beyond what the young man has chosen to exhibit to date.

Your next two posts:


Oh STFU you pompous ***.


Just that you sound like such a complete jerk the way you seem to be riding a high school / college kid. You're one of those small town guys who lives and dies by what a High School football program does, aren't you? You probably beat off to Friday Night Lights.

That doesn't sound like someone who "[doesn't] have a problem with anyone on here being critical of a player."

You may have thought he was going overboard, but instead of going about it constructively and discussing the facts, you and a few others took it to a personal level. That's the whole point of this thread...I'm just bemoaning why we can't have a reasonable discussion about anything anymore. People hold too many grudges, go personal instead of discussing the facts and get all bent out of shape too quickly.

[JohnnyMack]

Again I think his attack was more than pointing out flaws one of the players has and bordered on a personal vendetta this guy seems to have with him. That was the way I read it and I stand by my original posts.

And I bet that CH could throw that football right over that mountain.

[sanantoniosooner]

CrimsonRico?

[birddog]

Yes, they were. Group A...or, CrimsonHelmet anyway...was referring to the Miami game. Coach Wilson was referring to the Tulsa game.

Right?

I saw a little bit more negativity towards the Group A side too. I'm not denying the fact that Group A was negative and/or quick to point out weaknesses during recruiting or even recently. The frustrating thing for me was that people weren't acknowledging the argument which did have some validity (he missed half of his blocks against Miami). They were just saying things along the lines of "P iss off...you overly-critical loser."

And then, somehow, they thought it was reasonable to use his performance against Tulsa as proof that he's always been a good blocker, despite his performance against Miami.

actually they (me) were just pointing out that blocking was a weakness for him but he's working and getting better at it. that's why i linked the article where wilson says he is getting better at it.

[1stTimeCaller]

just because someone says that JG missed 18 blocking assignments it doesn't make that statement a fact.

Does crimson helmet know the various blocking schemes and assignments for our offense? Until then I'll disregard his facts and treat them as opinions.

[TopDawg]

actually they (me) were just pointing out that blocking was a weakness for him but he's working and getting better at it. that's why i linked the article where wilson says he is getting better at it.

I'm not saying there wasn't some good discussion going on. You did a pretty good job of stating your side and supporting it and, it just so happens, I feel pretty much the same way you do. I was just upset that all the personal attack stupidity had to get in the way like it so often does.

[JohnnyMack]

I'm not saying there wasn't some good discussion going on. You did a pretty good job of stating your side and supporting it and, it just so happens, I feel pretty much the same way you do. I was just upset that all the personal attack stupidity had to get in the way like it so often does.

I assume you mean my calling out of CH, not CH calling out Gresham.

That's what makes this place teh win.

[Rhino]

Maybe I missed where CH called Gresham a pompous *** and a jerk.

[JohnnyMack]

Ppfffttt....

He had sixteen plays in the Miami game where he was asked to block.

He made nine blocks, missed seven (including two whiffs). By my math, that's not a passing grade.

Throw in the dropped passes and a fumble so far this year, his performance is about the same as it was in high school. He's just doing it on a bigger stage.


"...what, do you have a personal vendetta against this kid?...."

Not against the kid, he's a good kid. Just the manner in which he approaches the game of football in relation to his God-given talents.

Had you seen every game of his three year high school career, you might feel the same. I am not alone in this regard. For each of his hometown supporters, you are likely to find an equal number of detractors (strictly speaking of his football play). There is a reason for this.

The young man's size/speed ratio is off the charts. We're talking world class physical gifts.

I will always begrudge those to whom much is given and who are unmindful of their gifts. Those who treat their inheirited skills as a birthright.

There are millions of current and former high school players who would kill to have his talent. They certainly would maximize his skill sets far beyond what the young man has chosen to exhibit to date.


Are you seriously telling me that if you were 6' 7" 235 lbs, 4.6 forty in high school that you would NOT be a beast on the field????? That you wouldn't be laying people out???? That you would approach contact with a 5' 9" DB like a cheerleader afraid of breaking a nail??? That you would shortarm a ball in a playoff game on 3rd & 10 with your team trailing and desperately in need of a first down because you caught a glimpse of a 5' 10" safety coming your way??? He's not even coming close to his potential, and I dislike that. There are millions of kids who aren't afraid of contact that could put his talent to better use. He was better in the Tulsa game, but he has a long way to go. Right now, he can't hold Steve Zabel's jock.

People like this are bad for the game. It's just a game and Gresham is merely a kid.

That someone would go back and grade out a college kids performance in a game is weird. It's just weird. Borderline obsessive.

But I'm the a-hole because I point that out.

[TopDawg]

People like this are bad for the game. It's just a game and Gresham is merely a kid.

That someone would go back and grade out a college kids performance in a game is weird. It's just weird. Borderline obsessive.

But I'm the a-hole because I point that out.

And personal attacks are bad for the board. That's why we ban people who do that.

Your points are all valid and you've certainly got a right to your opinion. And my frustration isn't with people who say "Dude, chill out...it's just a game." or "he's just a kid." My frustration is with people who say "you're a pompous idiot for focusing on this kid who must have beaten you out for a TE position in high school and you probably jerk off to high school football movies and yo momma is a ho and I know you are but what am I?"

BBQ did a good job of saying "ok, well maybe you're right that he's not great at blocking but look, he's getting better." That can lead to some actual interesting football conversation. "Shut up you pompous ***" can't.

[JohnnyMack]

You're right.

I handled the situation in a knee-jerk fashion.

I stand by my contention that attacks such as the ones made by CH towards Gresham aren't good for sports in general or this board.

I wasn't constructive in my criticism of CH's posts however which helped lead us to an unnecessary flame-out.

[sanantoniosooner]

hug it out beyonces

[birddog]

You're right.

I handled the situation in a knee-jerk fashion.

I stand by my contention that attacks such as the ones made by CH towards Gresham aren't good for sports in general or this board.

I wasn't constructive in my criticism of CH's posts however which helped lead us to an unnecessary flame-out.
nice recovery, jm. well played sir.

where is ch, anyway. i was hoping he'd chime in.

maybe he's in a fetal tuck behind a fern saying, "johnny mack, johnny mack, johnny mack.":D

[Ardmore_Sooner]

I played High School ball with Jermaine. I was a year ahead of him. Let me tell you a little about Jermaine.

Towards the end of his Sophomore season, he became a very intricate part of our offense and almost pulled us into a last minute comeback against Shawnee in the State semifinals.

Jermaine was very lackadaisical and went through the motions my Senior (his Junior) year when I played with him. Jermaine seemed more focused on basketball his Junior year and I feel that he thought that this was going to be his future. So after graduating I had very little respect for his playing abilities.

I attended all but one of Ardmore's games my Freshman year at OU. Jermaine came out more focused and more prepared then I had ever seen him before. He made the catches he was dropping a year before, showed much more passion, and was 10 times better than before.

When I first saw Jermaine against UAB last year I was totally shocked when I saw the size he had put on. Since coming to OU he has a great work ethic and has taken to the system. I had even heard he was taken summer classes prior to the season just so he could be eligible to play, which also caught me off guard.

Jermaine NEVER had to block in high school and thought that he would have trouble with it in the college level. He has improved more then I could ever imagine.

It's easy to knock on a kid who is playing a game THAT YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW. Get to know a person on a personal basis before you question their integrity and their personality.

[Mjcpr]

You're right.

I handled the situation in a knee-jerk fashion.

I stand by my contention that attacks such as the ones made by CH towards Gresham aren't good for sports in general or this board.

I wasn't constructive in my criticism of CH's posts however which helped lead us to an unnecessary flame-out.

Is there any way we could get an arm band or something to help guide our posts to the correct method?

[usmc-sooner]

And maybe this one will be too.

But essentially this is what that thread seemed to be about to me:



I just glanced through it pretty quickly, but that seemed to be kind of how it ended. CrimsonHelmet seemed to have some facts to back up his assertion that Gresham is not a great blocker. Does anybody disagree with him? I mean, if you think blocking isn't an important part of being a TE anymore, fine...you've probably got a legitimate argument and you should approach it from that angle instead of the "you're an obsessive idiot" angle. Gresham might be able to get by...even in the NFL...on his receiving ability alone, but that doesn't mean that CrimsonHelmet doesn't have a good point.

Anyway, I started this thread because I was interested in the actual football talk that was happening in the other one. But unfortunately SoonerFans.com has turned into one of those places where you can't have a reasonable discussion about football anymore.

seriously you're raggin on Gresham, I'm sure you could D him up. :rolleyes:

[TopDawg]

If you're just being ironic, well done.

[Harry Beanbag]

This thread is stupid. I challenge anyone to go back and read it and come to a different conclusion.

[NorthernIowaSooner]

hold on i think i have a reason for why the first one was locked...wait for it...oh yeah this has nothing to do with recruiting, he's on the team and a decent player, bitch about him elsewhere

[birddog]

well, you would be correct, however, the thread was started before he signed his loi.

[NorthernIowaSooner]

im aware of that im just not sure why were sitting around bitching about him here while hes in his second year

[birddog]

from your post it seemed like you were completely unaware of it.some guys came back to re-evaluate their stance on him. it's pretty fun to look at comments/predictions about a player.

i don't see why you're getting your man panties twisted.

from now on, we'll let you tell us what is acceptable to discuss here.

[TopDawg]

This thread is stupid. I challenge anyone to go back and read it and come to a different conclusion.

Thanks for your support.

Sorry to have wasted your valuable time.

[The Consumate Showman]

I played High School ball with Jermaine. I was a year ahead of him. Let me tell you a little about Jermaine.

Towards the end of his Sophomore season, he became a very intricate part of our offense and almost pulled us into a last minute comeback against Shawnee in the State semifinals.

Jermaine was very lackadaisical and went through the motions my Senior (his Junior) year when I played with him. Jermaine seemed more focused on basketball his Junior year and I feel that he thought that this was going to be his future. So after graduating I had very little respect for his playing abilities.

I attended all but one of Ardmore's games my Freshman year at OU. Jermaine came out more focused and more prepared then I had ever seen him before. He made the catches he was dropping a year before, showed much more passion, and was 10 times better than before.

When I first saw Jermaine against UAB last year I was totally shocked when I saw the size he had put on. Since coming to OU he has a great work ethic and has taken to the system. I had even heard he was taken summer classes prior to the season just so he could be eligible to play, which also caught me off guard.

Jermaine NEVER had to block in high school and thought that he would have trouble with it in the college level. He has improved more then I could ever imagine.

It's easy to knock on a kid who is playing a game THAT YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW. Get to know a person on a personal basis before you question their integrity and their personality.


This is the exact thing that I was talking about last year. JG made a LOT less plays when he was a junior and I wondered what the heck was wrong with him and then his senior year there was marked improvement. I guess Ardmore was just wanting to utilize his height to get TD's in the passing game and not worry so much about the run.

[Harry Beanbag]

Thanks for your support.

Sorry to have wasted your valuable time.


No problem, I'm over it now. Try not to let it happen again though. :)

[TopDawg]

I'll do my best. At least you were able to add some value to it.

[Harry Beanbag]

Somebody had to.

[usmc-sooner]

This thread is stupid. I challenge anyone to go back and read it and come to a different conclusion.

challenge accepted,

yep your right this thread is stupid.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

Leave Gresham alone!!! Come after me...I am a 24 year old man!!

[TopDawg]

challenge accepted,

yep your right this thread is stupid.

I apologize for wasting your time too...although you actually knew it was stupid when you started so I don't feel quite as bad.

[usmc-sooner]

No need to apoligize I live for reading stupid stuff by guys called Crimson Helmet and Top Dawg trying to show their football knowledge about the short comings of a guy who got to play as Freshman. Maybe next you guys could break down the throwing mechanics of Bradford, does he step into his passes? follow through? What about the mechanics of his handoffs?

I think the most classic part of the thread is where Top Dawg says I think that Crimson Helmet maybe on to something.

[TopDawg]

No need to apoligize I live for reading stupid stuff by guys called Crimson Helmet and Top Dawg trying to show their football knowledge about the short comings of a guy who got to play as Freshman. Maybe next you guys could break down the throwing mechanics of Bradford, does he step into his passes? follow through? What about the mechanics of his handoffs?

If that's what you thought, you clearly missed my point which essentially was "Even is Crimson Helmet is stupid for his remarks about Gresham, the personal attacks got in the way of any useful football discussion." Can you please point out to me where I tried to show my football knowledge about Gresham's shortcomings? I'm not saying I never spoke on the matter, but if after reading this thread that is the theme that you pulled from my postings, then the problem isn't with this thread.


I think the most classic part of the thread is where Top Dawg says I think that Crimson Helmet maybe on to something.

That's funny. Ya know, cuz Kevin Wilson seemed to be saying some of the same things about Gresham, albeit in a less-harsh manner.

"He's a big, strong kid. He's weighing 263, 264 every day right now. He's gaining confidence in knowing he can play physical and hard. He's always done pretty well in the passing game. His blocking has been a little hot, a little cold. It was probably the most complete game he's played, and that was really good to see."

I think that was CH's main point. I agree with a lot of you that he was probably being a little too harsh on the guy, but I think based on what the coaches were saying, it's not too far of a stretch to say that his blocking really was a weakness and that he wasn't playing as physically tough as they would've liked...which is what CH was saying. But instead of trying to have a decent football conversation with him...like birddogbbq was doing...too many people resorted to personal attacks on CH.

[1stTimeCaller]

perhaps posters should choose their words more wisely when posting negative things about players? problem solved.

[TopDawg]

perhaps posters should choose their words more wisely when posting negative things about players? problem solved.

Look, I'm not trying to support player-bashing. And while CH might've been overly critical, I don't think he was really bashing Gresham. But maybe I'm too quick to give him the benefit of the doubt and/or others are too quick to jump on his case.

Either way, he was making observations and backing them up with facts. Is it bad form to voice displeasure with a running back who fumbles too often even if he has a great YPC average? Maybe so...I dunno. You rightly pointed out that CH's understanding of blocking assignments may be incomplete, but if that's the case, you can have a good discussion by pointing that out instead of making personal attacks.

But back to your post...if given a choice between strongly worded criticism of players and carefully worded criticism...I'll always prefer that people us the latter. I didn't think his criticism of Gresham was too harshly worded and it certainly wasn't as harsh as the personal attacks made at him. If you're trying to get a poster to quit ragging on players, why would you try to get that point across by taking it to another level in your personal attacks on him/her? It's very Mike Gundyish. And I'm not trying to harp on JM or anybody else...he already "served his time" and admitted he probably over-reacted while sticking to his stance. That's fine. I just want to make it clear that through this thread I'm not trying to (a) beat up Gresham for his blocking performance or (b) support player-bashing.

[sanantoniosooner]

round and round she goes.......

where she stops, nobody knows.........

[TopDawg]

I think it's supposed to be 3 "rounds"...it gives it a better meter.

Round and round and round she goes...
Where she stops, nobody knows...

[sanantoniosooner]

http://www.xsltblog.com/archives/24805BP~The-Simpsons-Mr-Burns-Excellent.jpg

[RacerX]

Leave Gresham alone!!! Come after me...I am a 24 year old man!!

Sorry kid. Forty is the standard.

[RacerX]

Do we have a winner yet?

[TopDawg]

Do we have a winner yet?

GRESHAM!

[RacerX]

I'm not sure you chose your capitalization or punctuation carefully. Much less your font.

You can't be too careful these days, you might offend somebody.

[Harry Beanbag]

round and round she goes.......

where she stops, nobody knows.........


Round and round
With love we'll find a way just give it time
Round and round
What comes around goes around
I'll tell you why

[JohnnyMack]

<PC Disclaimer for those who easily get offended: I am not personally attacking anyone with this next statement, I am making a broad generalization. I hope my broad generalization doesn't upset anyone's tender sensibilities.>

Back to the point about Gresham and his blocking. Who cares? Take what you get from him in terms of natural ability and then teach him how to block. Tony Gonzalez didn't block for crap when he started in the league, Gates doesn't block for crap now.

How many good blocking tight-ends who are true Sophomores at the college level are there anyway?

[Harry Beanbag]

There's probably some yahoo that went to high school with Gonzalez that still talks about what a lazy wuss he is because he doesn't block like Orlando Pace. Nevermind he's arguably the greatest receiving TE in NFL history.

Some people just like to get their jollies by ridiculing other people, probably just out of jealousy. Maybe it makes them feel like a bigger man or helps them get over their own shortcomings in life by pointing out other's perceived faults. Admitting they were wrong would only make them feel smaller inside.

[Scott D]

psst... Tony Gonzales still sucks as a blocker ;)

[JohnnyMack]

psst... Tony Gonzales still sucks as a blocker ;)

He's better than he was, negative Nancy*.

*My use of the phrase negative Nancy was not a personal attack. It was an effort at levity and I already apologize for making that comment.

[Scott D]

that usage only applies if I was truly being negative and not being facetious about the entire matter. I really don't care how well Tony Gonzales blocks unless it involves him missing blocks against Oakland :D

now a serious reply would have brought up the age old argument that there are blocking tight ends and receiving tight ends, and the best you can hope for is for them to become a little better than adequate at the aspect that is considered a weakpoint in their game.

[1stTimeCaller]

that other Gresham thread is full of comedy gold.

[1stTimeCaller]

Regarding the game in which Crimson Helmet graded Gresham's performance:

Did Gresham give up any sacks?

Could some of the blocks that CH graded as 'missed' have been chips blocks?

How many times did his man tackle to ball carrier?

When he made blocks was he blocking the correct man?

[TopDawg]

You guys are getting better at this. Way to go!

I'm thrilled with Gresham's receiving so far. His blocking performance against Tulsa was apparently very good and he even warranted a "look at this block" replay against Colorado.

Good on him (or Wilson) for lighting a fire and working on that. I hope he continues to improve. While it's true that some TEs can get along just fine on receiving, you'd sure hate to see someone with the potential to be the next Keith Jackson settle on being just a really big receiver.

[jk the sooner fan]

perhaps JG's performance in Ardmore is more a reflection of the coaching he got there huh?

[1stTimeCaller]

You guys are getting better at this. Way to go!

Yet smart-assed comments keep showing up in your posts!!!

Hooray for instigation!

[jk the sooner fan]

i thought we agreed on condescending?

[1stTimeCaller]

I didn't know how to spell that word.

[usmc-sooner]

Good on him (or Wilson) for lighting a fire and working on that. I hope he continues to improve. While it's true that some TEs can get along just fine on receiving, you'd sure hate to see someone with the potential to be the next Keith Jackson settle on being just a really big receiver.

I hope they can work the suck out of him, before he leaves for the NFL and bukoo big bucks :rolleyes:
maybe we should consult the Crimson Helmet and Top Dawg to work out his flaws :D :D :D :D :D

[TopDawg]

i thought we agreed on condescending?

Welcome back!

[TopDawg]

Yet smart-assed comments keep showing up in your posts!!!

Hooray for instigation!

heh...I just thought it was funny that some people who admittedly overreacted to an attack on Gresham are now mocking people who overreact to personal attacks.

[TopDawg]

I hope they can work the suck out of him, before he leaves for the NFL and bukoo big bucks :rolleyes:
maybe we should consult the Crimson Helmet and Top Dawg to work out his flaws :D :D :D :D :D

I didn't mean to imply that if he didn't reach the Keith Jackson level that meant that he sucked. And I'll leave it to Coach Wilson and the staff to continue working on his blocking. If Crimson Helmet wants to stay involved, so be it.

[usmc-sooner]

heh...I just thought it was funny that some people who admittedly overreacted to an attack on Gresham are now mocking people who overreact to personal attacks.

So you don't like it when someone is critical of you being critical of a player.

[TopDawg]

So you don't like it when someone is critical of you being critical of a player.

No, I don't have a problem with that. For starters, I wasn't being critical of Gresham...at least, no more so than Coach Wilson was. If people want to be critical of me for what I've said about Gresham's abilities, that's fine with me.

But that's not what's happening here. What's happening here is that people who admittedly overreacted to player criticism are now mocking me (I presume) for, or accusing me of, overreacting to their personal attacks. And I really don't have a problem with that either. They're welcome to their opinion that I've overreacted as well. I just wanted to point out the irony.

[jk the sooner fan]

Welcome back!

i hadnt realized i ever left


i think your quick rush to defend crimson helmets comments are probably what have you lumped together with him

[TopDawg]

i hadnt realized i ever left

Sorry. I wasn't trying to imply that you'd been baned...just that you were all over this thread in the beginning and then disappeared.


i think your quick rush to defend crimson helmets comments are probably what have you lumped together with him

Oh yeah...I can totally see why I've been lumped together with CH. And although I think that his general premise may have some legs (because even Coach Wilson said that Gresham has a history of playing soft), I tried to go out of my way to say that this thread was not about CH being justified in his opinion of Gresham and more about about personal attacks getting in the way of football discussion.

[jk the sooner fan]

right

[usmc-sooner]

Sorry. I wasn't trying to imply that you'd been baned...just that you were all over this thread in the beginning and then disappeared.



Oh yeah...I can totally see why I've been lumped together with CH. And although I think that his general premise may have some legs (because even Coach Wilson said that Gresham has a history of playing soft), I tried to go out of my way to say that this thread was not about CH being justified in his opinion of Gresham and more about about personal attacks getting in the way of football discussion.

Gresham is soft. But you don't like personal attacks on the internet?
I think Coach Wilson may have to redefine soft.

and seriously at some point TD, you should let it go

[Soonerus]

Let's see what Gresham does this weekend the discuss further..the Texas game has traditionally been the barometer to judge players..

[usmc-sooner]

hell let's see what Top Dawg or Crimson Helmet does against Texas

who grades out better on the internet criticisms of a sophmore TE.

[Soonerus]

Who the H is Crimson Helmet ???

[usmc-sooner]

Who the H is Crimson Helmet ???

TD's source

[TopDawg]

Gresham is soft. But you don't like personal attacks on the internet?
I think Coach Wilson may have to redefine soft.

Newsflash: neither does Phil. That's why he made it against the rules.


and seriously at some point TD, you should let it go

...and less than 15 minutes after posting this, you bring it up again.

[1stTimeCaller]

funny that your 'Way to go guys' post shows up right after one of mine and you don't quote any post so it leads one to assume that it was a response to the post above it.


heh...I just thought it was funny that some people who admittedly overreacted to an attack on Gresham are now mocking people who overreact to personal attacks.


But that's not what's happening here. What's happening here is that people who admittedly overreacted to player criticism are now mocking me (I presume) for, or accusing me of, overreacting to their personal attacks. And I really don't have a problem with that either. They're welcome to their opinion that I've overreacted as well. I just wanted to point out the irony.

Please show me where I overreacted to anything. Please show me where I made a personal attack on anyone.

I know that you don't like me but that's no reason to abandon logic and reason when I respond to any of your posts.

[Soonerus]

I have not read this entire thread but I think Gresham will be a great player but has yet to reach his potential...still young though..

[usmc-sooner]

Newsflash: neither does Phil. That's why he made it against the rules.



...and less than 15 minutes after posting this, you bring it up again.

holy crap, I couldn't have LMOA more, are you calling again for me to be banned? Damn for someone who offers these observations on players and gets bent out of shape for someone making fun of you for criticizing a player, all I can say is soft, internet soft:eek:

[Soonerus]

You guys take a deeeep breath...

[TopDawg]

funny that your 'Way to go guys' post shows up right after one of mine and you don't quote any post so it leads one to assume that it was a response to the post above it.

My bad, it wasn't. In fact, earlier I held up your suggestion that CH's knowledge of blocking assignments may be incomplete as a very reasonable argument against his claims and my claim that those should be accepted as facts.


Please show me where I overreacted to anything. Please show me where I made a personal attack on anyone.I know that you don't like me but that's no reason to abandon logic and reason when I respond to any of your posts.

If you didn't overreact or make a personal attack, then you shouldn't think I was referring to you. In fact, I wasn't. I worded that post poorly. JM was the one who admitted that he overreacted and made a personal attack, but along with other people he seemed to be claiming that I was overreacting by starting this thread. This part is turning into a much bigger issue that I meant for it to. I wasn't trying to lump a bunch more people into the group who made personal attacks, I just thought it was ironic that the people in JM's camp were mocking the fact that I got my feathers ruffled by his response while ignoring the fact that he did the same with CH's response.

[usmc-sooner]

and seriously can anyone link me to a thread where I have pull in Phil? Are you going to ban me TD?

what's next your daddy?

[Soonerus]

You guys are all good members of SF, come on...how did this happen ???

[TopDawg]

holy crap, I couldn't have LMOA more, are you calling again for me to be banned?

Wow. Just wow. The distance you jumped to get to that conclusion would make Mike Powell jealous.


Damn for someone who offers these observations on players and gets bent out of shape for someone making fun of you for criticizing a player, all I can say is soft, internet soft:eek:

What observations about Gresham have I offered? I've asked you this before and you've avoided it. Essentially I've said the same things that Wilson has said.

[1stTimeCaller]

My bad, it wasn't. In fact, earlier I held up your suggestion that CH's knowledge of blocking assignments may be incomplete as a very reasonable argument against his claims and my claim that those should be accepted as facts.

yet after you posted that you referred back to his 'facts'.

This thread is amusing at best.

[Soonerus]

My efforts to mediate are officially abandoned...maybe one or more should have some time-out...I have gotten it for much less..

[usmc-sooner]

and seriously can anyone link me to a thread where I have pull in Phil? Are you going to ban me TD?

what's next your daddy?

seriously,td

you should email your concerns to coach Wilson. Be sure and let him know you know a mod and keep dropping names, maybe this will make Gresham block better.

[Rhino]

and seriously can anyone link me to a thread where I have pull in Phil? Are you going to ban me TD?

what's next your daddy? What in the sam hell are you talking about?

TD never said anything about you making personal attacks on him. The personal attacks, which TD has tried to explain over and over, were made by JohnnyMack in the other thread. He was banned for a day and that's over. Somehow, you misinterpreted it into TD threatening you with a banning over a personal attack you never even made.

[TopDawg]

yet after you posted that you referred back to his 'facts'.

You're right. I did say that he was making claims and bringing facts. My bad. I guess whether or not they were facts was still up in the air. You voiced a valid objection to whether or not they should be accepted as facts. I should have said that he was bringing numbers (that nobody had challenged at the time) to back up his claims.

But I was also referring in part to the fact that Wilson had made comments that seemed to support CH's claims.

[usmc-sooner]

yet after you posted that you referred back to his 'facts'.

This thread is amusing at best.

did you know Phil has a policy of no name calling?

Now let's evaluate Gresham's blocking. BTW have you guys read the policy that no one is allowed to make fun of me. Let me mention one more time about the no make fun of Top Dawg policy or I'm calling in Phil.

My Gawd I've seen such a pathetic argument in my life.

[Soonerus]

possible...

[1stTimeCaller]

Air Supply - Making Love Out of Nothing at All

[usmc-sooner]

What in the sam hell are you talking about?

TD never said anything about you making personal attacks on him. The personal attacks, which TD has tried to explain over and over, were made by JohnnyMack in the other thread. He was banned for a day and that's over. Somehow, you misinterpreted it into TD threatening you with a banning over a personal attack you never even made.

he brings it up more than any poster alive. It's pathetic. It'd would be great if I had a mod to argue on my side but I don't. And I don't really care. I don't usually agree with JM but I'm with him on this one.

[Rhino]

You're making about as much sense as Rus.